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[Gnatty]

Gah!

[Hurdity]

Hi Angela H

Thank-you kindly for posting those links. Yes these are accounts of the endogenous (inside the body) conversion of testosterone to oestrogen - which is what I meant when I said that they are on the same metabolic pathway. It;s called "steroidogenesis", You can see it diagrammatically here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Steroidogenesis.svg

All of these processes take place in certain tissues in the body, are controlled by enzymes (as per the diagram) and subject to feeback loops etc - all very complex, in terms of regulation.

What I am looking for though, is trials showing that when you add testosterone exogenously (ie from outside the body) as part of HRT, it is converted to oestrogen up to a certain level. To my knowledge (limited!) this has not been done. However the reason I question it is because I read the product monograph ( a type of summary research paper about a pharmaceutical product before it gets approved) some years ago for the testosterone patch "Intrinsa" which used to be marketed, and as far as I recall (some time ago) the addition of the T patch did NOT cause an increase in oestrogen levels in the women studied. Now I can't remember if they were also taking oestrogen as part of HRT - but that has stuck in my mind and I remember it every time someone mentions this.

So in a nutshell - just because testosterone  is ONE of the precursors on the metabolic pathway of estradiol synthesis, doesn't necessarily mean that if you ADD testosterone it WILL convert to oestrogen. That's what I'm trying to find out!

(You didn't ask for that did you?!)

Incidentally you will see DHEA in that same diagram - full name DeHydroEpiAndrosterone.

Gnatty - the whole DHEA thing is very interesting and the same argument occurs - if you take DHEA - you cant control what it will convert to. There has been some research and one of the vaginal products contains DHEA. Unfortunately there is insufficient research into dosage and efficacy - because you can buy it OTC but who knows how much to take and whether you could be causing an increase in womb lining etc if it converts to oestrogen and your'e not taking prog (or get too hairy if it converts to T!). I did buy some once - and took a weak dose for a couple of months or so but noticed not one jot of difference in anything!

Hurdity x

[AngelaH]

I read the product monograph ( a type of summary research paper about a pharmaceutical product before it gets approved) some years ago for the testosterone patch "Intrinsa" which used to be marketed, and as far as I recall (some time ago) the addition of the T patch did NOT cause an increase in oestrogen levels in the women studied. Now I can't remember if they were also taking oestrogen

Hello Hurdity 

Of course they were talking oestrogen because Intrinsa was supposed to be prescribed for women, who had surgical menopause. Is it right?

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/scientific-discussion/intrinsa-epar-scientific-discussion_en.pdf

Be honest I don’t know much about testosterone, never been interested before, so I feel I do need to do more research, probably it will help me to find out what is going wrong with me.

[MabelBabel]

I went to Newson Health for Testosterone because after being on Evorel 50 for 8 months I was still struggling with extreme brain fog, lack of interest in anything, exhaustion, no libido and lots more.
I told the Dr I wanted testosterone to try and give me myself back, my vavavoom, I also told her I didn't care about libido, which was why I went private as opposed to NHS.
She gave me testogel.
After a few weeks my libido was back, after 9 weeks my brain for started to lift and I began feeling like my old self again.
After 11 weeks, I began getting night sweats and muscle pain again.
I went back to my GP who liaised with Newson. I am staying with testogel but have now switched from  patches to oestrogel and utrogestan so I can tweak my oestrogen levels as and when needed.
I hope this will be the last tweak I need for a little while.
Testosterone has definitely helped me, a lot.

[orrla]

Testo made me more like myself, from before Meno, which turned me, from bold, never scared of anything, get up and go woman into scared, crying, apologetic, worried jelly with daily anxieties. Even my washing machine scared me!

I wish I was offered it much earlier and had not have to go through all that, for years, as I seem to be high on testo before. Contrary to most experiences, my libido was extra high in Meno so I did not need that for that.

I need it for functioning! Now that they cut my dose in half, from last Dec, I flopped, lost interest, my muscles gone soft, spine collapse, and my bits went into sort of Prolapse.

For last two weeks I increased my dosage by quarter, by myself, to check, and already am more active and done lots in my flat.

So, it seems to make me more energetic, my body stronger, and I cope better on it with life!

[Denise Didi]

Hi I used for about a year but had to try other things first. My libido was not the problem but no energy, fatigue and it really helped with that.

[WishIdknownsooner]

My HRT doesn’t work for me and I am trying to think why. Just pump oestrogen to my body makes me much worse than without pumping it. I was born as a hairy girl, I mean all my life I have to fight with my hair over my whole body, even in parts, where ladies normally don’t have hair at all.  But apart from that I never had problems, my periods were normal, I didn’t have a problem to conceive and give a birth, I am a normal lady, just more hairy, than others  . But now I have noticed that my usual hair on my lags, for example,  started growing more slowly than before, in some parts of my body it disappeared at all.  Now I look  like a normal lady   But I feel rubbish  This is why I think now about testosterone, I think I was born with much higher level of it, than lady needs and the problem is now really low level of testosterone as well in my body? 

Hi, do you suffer with PCOS at all? I’m peri and have had excess hair, but regular periods all my life. Scans showed PCOS, although blood tests were normal.  I also have darker skin on my neck and groin, another symptom of PCOS. Also being overweight.  Anyway, the doctor at Newsons said women who’ve had higher than average testosterone levels in younger life (as those of us with PCOS do) suffer more with low testosterone in peri, when t begins to decline - we really feel it, often more than the decline in oestrogen.  I only fancy sex one week a month, and my energy and muscle tone has declined sharply.  Also the brain fog…. Argh! Sure enough, my free androgen index was really low. I’ve just started testosterone gel and am hoping for the best. Im on a very low dose of oestrogen and that seems enough for me.  I believe people in peri with PCOS have even more of a hormonal rollercoaster than normal!

[Flossy]

Interested in this thread as I have just started on Tostran a few days ago. After reading posts on here I have started on a v small amount (prob the 'petit pois' size that I have read on here) daily. I am interested in how much other women are using (of Tostran) as wondering if 1 pump every other day (or twice a week) would be better (and easier to measure accurately.

orrla, which brand of testosterone are you using and what is your dose, if you don't mind me asking?

Other than libido my main hope from it is improved energy, motivation and muscle mass, I do a lot of sports and def find it more tiring than I used to. Just a bit impatient so don't want to start on too low a dose!

[AngelaH]

Hi, do you suffer with PCOS at all? I’m peri and have had excess hair, but regular periods all my life. Scans showed PCOS, although blood tests were normal.  I also have darker skin on my neck and groin, another symptom of PCOS. Also being overweight.  Anyway, the doctor at Newsons said women who’ve had higher than average testosterone levels in younger life (as those of us with PCOS do) suffer more with low testosterone in peri, when t begins to decline - we really feel it, often more than the decline in oestrogen.  I only fancy sex one week a month, and my energy and muscle tone has declined sharply.  Also the brain fog…. Argh! Sure enough, my free androgen index was really low. I’ve just started testosterone gel and am hoping for the best. Im on a very low dose of oestrogen and that seems enough for me.  I believe people in peri with PCOS have even more of a hormonal rollercoaster than normal!

Hello WishIdknowsooner 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I don’t think I had PCOS when I was in my reproductive age, excess hair is probably the only one symptom which I had, but I never been checked by Dr and never been tested, so there is possibility I had it, just didn’t know about it. I remember I had a friend, she was diagnosed with PCOS in her early 30th, as far as I remember all the symptoms which she had where nothing like mine, apart from excess hair. My peri was a nightmare, I don’t know if I am still there or have moved to the next stage - meno or even post because of Mirena coil. All my peri symptoms were successfully treated with a small dose of progesterone (Mirena) 4 years ago, but now some symptoms have returned back I also have a new one - cold flashes. GP thinks my estrogen level has dropped and prescribed me Oestrogel, the problem is my body is definitely not happy with pumping estrogen in it, so I don’t think my GP is right. It is more likely that my old problem from peri is returning back (due to the end of Mirena life) and I still need progesterone more than estrogen. I have managed to make an appointment with GP only in October to discuss it. Question about testosterone still open for me as well.

 Good luck with your treatment, I hope it will help you. It means a lot when you know what exactly is going wrong in your body, so it makes easier for you to find right treatment to fix it.

[AngelaH]

Thanks to all lovely Ladies who posted their experience on here. What I can see that all 3 sex hormones have very similar symptoms if level of them drops. It really makes hard to understand which hormone needs to be lifted up.