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Menopause Matters magazine ISSUE 76 out now. (Summer issue, June 2024)

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Author Topic: Too much oestrogen symptoms  (Read 4163 times)

Pippa52

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Too much oestrogen symptoms
« on: November 22, 2022, 10:25:04 AM »

Hi All, I have been struggling for ages to try and get my HRT levels to even out.  I am post meno, surgical menopause many years ago and aged 70.  Been on oestrogen only HRT since I was 42. Was absolutely fine HRT wise till last year when oestrogel became unavailable and then was put on Lenzetto and then two different patches which I never levelled out on.  Started back on Oestrogel in July and just can't get level. Had loads of blood tests in Sept like thyroid etc all came back  normal.  My oestrogen blood level however was low in July at 69 and Meno consultant told me to work up to 3 pumps of Oestrogel (which I was originally on).  Have been trying to work up over the months as have to take it slowly as am super sensitive to any level change but every time I went up (got up to 2 1/2) it made me feel dreadful to be honest its been horrendous with cracking headaches, dizziness, huge anxiety, feel wired and jittery all the time,  insomnia and episodes of palpitations which are all supposed I thought to be signs of too little oestrogen but the higher up I went the worse I felt.  Hence over the past 2 weeks I have come down on the dose and am now on 1 1/2 pumps.  I notice the oestrogen in Oestrogel which used to be Estradiol 17b changed last year to Estradiol hemihydrate and I am wondering if it is maybe a bit stronger.  I did write to the manufacturer but they told me nothing has changed which is odd as the main ingredient has for sure.  I  just wondered if anyone else suffered from too high a dose of their HRT and if so did they have similar symptoms.  I had a spell of really bad muscle pain as well but that seems to have got better since I decreased the dose.  My blood oestrogen levels were low in July but I felt a lot better then than I do now so maybe I should be going on symptoms and not blood levels which is what the Meno consultant seems to want me to do? I have a follow up telephone appt on 1st Dec but really am finding it hard to function at any level right now.  I realise it will take time to level out on the lower dose too. Any input would be very much appreciated - thanks so much xxx
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VanillaLover

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2022, 11:22:38 AM »

Hello, I don’t have specific experience but it does sound like you are on too much gel. Maybe your body is ready for less oestrogen now that you are older ? Have you tried going below the 1.5 pumps and see if that helps at all?
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MIS71MUM

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2022, 12:06:15 PM »

Hi Pippa52

Yes I’ve had the exact same experience as you since the changes to the gel earlier in the year.

I’ve also wondered if the green squared bottle was too strong also? I do think that I could have settled on the Amber squared bottles, but they became unavailable. 

I’m still trying to find the balance, but I’ve decided to stop with oestrogel for the timebeing as I feel it’s like starting a new product each time I get a different bottle.  I have wondered if it changes the absorption depending on how you apply it, so rather than rubbing in, you could spread it and leave to dry!

Not sure if you are aware of this, but Sandrena is also 17b oestrogen.

Sorry I can’t help but I do know exactly how you are feeling.
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Pippa52

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2022, 02:25:48 PM »

MIS71MUM I'm so sorry to hear you have suffered too regarding Oestrogel.  Really interested though to hear that you found the strength different too.  I think that is what has really messed me up as was told to return to my original dose of 3 pumps but of course now that is way too much.  I have gone down to 1 1/2 pumps today as have been decreasing slowly over the past 3 weeks or so.  Its really not great of the drug company who make it to keep varying the strength of the product as it makes it really hard to stay level on it.  Having been on 3 different types of HRT over the past year before Oestrogel became available again I am a bit loathe to change yet again but thank you for letting me know about the Sandrena gel and if I don't get some sort of normality back soon I will have to think of that before I end up being carted off by men in white coats :) I was told to apply the Oestrogel a different way to what I used to originally and the consultant said that would save between 20 - 30% for each pump worth so again I have probably been getting a lot more from each dollop worth that I used to just to compound the problem of it being stronger.  I have some amber bottles which I am on at the moment but my next prescription is green ones so I dread to think what will happen when I have to change to them :(  Thanks so much for your post really appreciate it.  I do hope that you start to feel better soon and you have helped honestly just by letting me know I am not alone xx
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Pippa52

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2022, 02:29:13 PM »

VanillaLover - thanks so much for your reply.  The 1 1/2 dosage I went down to today will be the lowest I have ever been on Oestrogel so will be interesting to see what happens.  I know it will take time to bed in properly but I hope very much the lower dose will make life a bit  more normal again.  I so agree being older I should in theory need less oestrogen too so fingers crossed.  Thanks again so much for your post x
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MIS71MUM

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2022, 07:32:17 PM »

Hi Pippa52

Just to let you know that I’ve done exactly the same as you! Sometimes applied so there’s hardly any left on my hands to wash off! Like you say, that combined with the different strengths in the gels!!!

Just to let you know when I recently ordered the gel, it was Amber bottles again with newer expiry dates! And……one bottle was the shape of the old slimline canister!!

Sorry you are struggling too. Hope you feel better soon, you are definitely not alone. Take care xxx
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Hurdity

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2022, 05:05:02 PM »

Hi Pippa

I'm not an expert on this but estradiol hemihydrate is two molecules of 17B estradiol joined together with a water molecule. Because it is readily converted into 17B estradiol in the body it's considered the same active ingredient. In terms of using one form or another in different HRT products - I Have no idea whether companies have changed from using the single molecule 17 B estradiol to the hemihydrate - or whether it is just a difference in labelling. Either way the amount of estradiol in any product will be exactly the same so the same concentration (and the biochemistry of it all is beyond me - long time since my degree!).

Here is what it says on Wikipedia:

"Hemihydrate
A hemihydrate form of estradiol, estradiol hemihydrate, is widely used medically under a large number of brand names similarly to estradiol.[166] In terms of activity and bioequivalence, estradiol and its hemihydrate are identical, with the only disparities being an approximate 3% difference in potency by weight (due to the presence of water molecules in the hemihydrate form of the substance) and a slower rate of release with certain formulations of the hemihydrate.[169][170] This is because estradiol hemihydrate is more hydrated than anhydrous estradiol, and for this reason, is more insoluble in water in comparison, which results in slower absorption rates with specific formulations of the drug such as vaginal tablets.[170] Estradiol hemihydrate has also been shown to result in less systemic absorption as a vaginal tablet formulation relative to other topical estradiol formulations such as vaginal creams.[171] Estradiol hemihydrate is used in place of estradiol in some estradiol products."

I'm wondering if as you say, your oestrogen dose is too high - as you are 70 you should be able to function on far less than someone younger and ideally be flush and sweat free from a much lower dose. Certainly I wouldn't want to have high blood oestrogen levels at 70 only because there hasn't been much research I don't think in long term use in older women? Just realised I might have misunderstood your post - when you said you oestrogen level was low at 69, I thoigh you meant age 69 - maybe you meant pmol/l, ie the actual oestrogen reading? That would be low - but a one off result doesn't necessarily mean it's correct...

Having said that - it is much harder if you have had surgical menopause with no ovaries. Do you or have you taken any testosterone or not felt you needed it?

Have you thought of patches - I feel these may give you a more stable dose than chopping and changing with different gels and Lenzetto - all of those types of HRT are far more likely to be variable because of rubbing or spreading the gel on your body and  the area covered may vary and the amount absorbed dependent also on your skin, thickness and temperature....?

Sorry I can't really help and hope all goes well with your consultation appt

Hurdity x
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sweettooth

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2022, 06:38:40 PM »

Hi pippa52,  I feel exactly the same but I’m on 2mg tablet age 61.  My levels are over 400 and I have tried lowering but I’m a mess.  I just can’t get balanced either, it’s so hard so I feel for you.  I can feel wired, anxious or tearful.

I too wonder as Hurdity mentioned about a patch to give a more consistent level.  I have had total hyster too. Your levels are low though so you can’t be absorbing too well?

Hope we can find a solution soon xx
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Pippa52

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2022, 02:59:45 PM »

Hurdity - thank you so much for your incredibly informative post I really appreciate it.  My oestrogen level in my last blood test in July was 69pmol which the consultant said was far too low but I had another test last week so will be interested to see what that is now. I totally agree with you that at age 70 I should need less oestrogen and have absolutely no wish to be on a high dose but was told to go up to 3 pumps a day - well 2 is proving too much let alone 3 so I am now on 1 1/2 pumps.  I did try patches (Evorel and Estradot afterwards) but sadly re-acted really badly to the adhesive.  I have found with the gel now I put on 3/4 of  my dose in the morning then top it up with the remaining 1/4 in the evening - I find for me that seems to work best.  I do weigh the gel out as I am so ridiculously sensitive to dose changes and this way I know I always get an accurate dose as the pump system on Oestrogel can vary the amounts quite a bit from each dose.  I've not taken testosterone but do feel it  might help with muscle pain and energy etc so I will discuss with the Meno consultant.  Thank you again so very much for  your help xx
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Pippa52

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2022, 03:02:35 PM »

MIS71MUM - thanks so much for your reply x Really good to know you were given amber bottles again so fingers crossed maybe they are still being manufactured.  Thanks also for your kind words.  I am starting to improve a bit  on the lower dose so am keeping everything crossed that if I stay exactly on this dose things will improve long term.  You are so right we are not alone in the quandry.  xxx
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Pippa52

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2022, 03:04:09 PM »

Mollydolly many thanks for your message.  Unfortunately I did try two different types of patch but the adhesive on both I reacted really badly do with hives etc so was advised not to use them :(  xx
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Pippa52

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2022, 03:06:44 PM »

sweettooth - oh goodness it's such a nightmare isn't it.  I am a few days in on the lower dose and am starting to improve but the proof will be if it stays levelled out further down the line.  I am keeping everything crossed but the anxiety, headache and insomnia are improving a bit so far.  Hope so much you will start to feel a bit better soon.  What a total roller coaster this all is.  xxx

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sweettooth

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2022, 04:44:43 PM »

It sure is a pain this whole balancing act!  Sounding good for you so far🤞glad the horrid anx is!!
I too would like to reduce but from my experience after 2 weeks I was in a right old pickle but then I wonder wud it settle🤷‍♀️
Hope we get feeling better whatever we do xx
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Ali P

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2022, 08:39:16 PM »

Hi.
I’m also struggling with high estrogen symptoms  severe anxiety. The original symptoms Fo on this 100 and blood count is 414. If I reduce it from 100 to 75 my original severe muscle spasms and back and rib pain come back with in a week or so.
Weirdly I was prescribe amitriptyline 6 days ago. After 5 days my original symptoms are back with vengeance also itch skin. Read an article that antidepressant can affect hormones.
  Cant tolerate testosterone either
Hope we can all get through this x
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pepperminty

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Re: Too much oestrogen symptoms
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2022, 07:53:27 AM »

Hi Pippa52,

your comment about muscle pain and increase in estrogen interested me , as I have the same problem. Every time I try to increase, I get aches and muscle pain. Once i drop, it goes away.  So i can only stay on a low dose.  I am still trying to find out why this happens - there must be a scientific reason.

I hope you feel better soon

PMXX
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