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[vintagefiend]

Hello,

i might be clutching at straws a bit but seriously fed up with waking up early every morning (5 am or thereabouts) with thudding chest and feelings of anxiety/bleakness
2 years post meno
i just can't seem to control things with hrt though remain on it
i don't have palpitatons any other time
but i'm waking every bloody day and it's impacting on the rest of the day as not enough sleep
i can be having a pleasant dream, then bam!! i'm awake
i occasionally took 5-10 mgs many years ago propranolol when a student/giving presentation
really good for those one-off occasions- really gets rid of the anxiety- amazing!!
i've used it a couple of times- maybe 2 yrs ago- to help sleep and, while i did go to sleep on it- as supremely chilled!- it gave me nightmares and i felt underslept and grotty so think it affected quality of my sleep- so kind of pointless
today i was talking to an iranian friend who takes long-acting propranolol 10 mg daily for headaches and she says it helps her sleep as a happy side effect- she has no adverse side effects on it- she's been on it 3 months- she takes at night
she said that in iran it's seen as quite a positive, maintenance/preventative medication in the way that aspirin might be used here
and it's really got me thinking!
10 mg slow release is a small amount- seems a relatively "safe" medicaton maybe??
i wonder if my experience with nightmares would have eased as i'd got used to it
has anyone used propranolol? either for anxiety or something else but noticed sleep benefits?
thanks x

[Nas]

Will be following with interest as I’m in exactly the same boat and mine  is going to worsen as I’m off HRT for now ( another story! )

There is slow release propranolol, so maybe you would benefit from that better?

I take the 40mg for situational anxiety, but might give to a go at bedtime
 ( although I’m sure I’ve read that it hinders sleep??)

Is long acting, the same as slow release?

Hope you get some relief soon.
Amitriptyline isn’t bad for sleep either.

[CLKD]

Cortisol - the waking hormone.  Is a real nuisance 

My GP gave me Propranolol in 2002.  Taking it regularly eased symptoms.  80mg 3 times a day followed by 40mg twice a day, down to 20mg after several years.

[vintagefiend]

Hi Nas-
i remember your posts and feeling very similar to you
sorry you're still struggling and thanks for the response
yes, by long-acting i mean slow release
i remember needing very small amounts for the situational anxiety- usually i'd have less than one 10mg tablet
and i do remember having horrible nightmares on it so can understand there being a known negative correlation with sleep!
i suppose  i wondered whether taking it for long enough might get rid of the bad side effects- whether the're just an initial thing
i have tried amitriptyline but had the next day grogginess so gave up- again maybe perseverance would have improved side effects
i guess what i like about the idea of propranolol is that it's not a psychiatric drug- and 'm also intrigued by what my friend said re low doses of it being (allegedly) akin to taking something like aspirin in iran
or mabe there'sno such thing as a free lunch!!
like you, i think my morning surges of anxiety are caused by hrt but at the same time i realise coming off it might bring other issues
how long have you been off it and has it actually proved worse for you?really hope it doesn't
i am on 10mg prozac which i would liketo get off one day as just feelit'srun its course and prob having impact on other mechanisms
i wish you well- i really felt for you and totally nderstand how it is.
are you still working?
take care x

[vintagefiend]

Hi CLKD
cross posted!!
thank you for responding and i'm really interested in your propranolol experience- thank you for sharing
do you take 20mg every day?
is it long-acting?
do you fel refreshed after sleep?
do you have nightmares?
sorry- lts a barrage of questions- you've really piqued my curiosity!!
i'm frustrated cos i don't feel depressed per se- and i have been before so i can compare my mood to how i was- but the cortisol (or whatever it is) is inevitably affecting my life and making me feel desperate!
so i'm stuck on an antidepressant that i really needed once but don't feel it's right fr me now.
i can feel positive about the future and grateful for aspects of my life which is something i couldnt do in the pits of depression so i like the idea of something that isnt strictly for mood but could have huge impact on it
are you on hrt as well?
thanks again xx

[Wrensong]

Hi Vintagefiend, I wish I had a solution for you but just wanted to say I feel for you as I'm pretty much in the same situation.  Long Postmenopause, on HRT, with repeated early waking, except mine tends to start earlier than yours each night - last night the first time was 1:40 & 3-3:30 is usually the latest I sleep before the horrible rude awakenings start & if later in the night like that it can be impossible to get back to sleep at all.  My most difficult & most resistant meno symptom & I absolutely agree it seriously effects energy levels & QOL.  Like you, I don't have palpitations by day (though did for many years before HRT) & my only anxiety is situation-appropriate.

I was prescribed propranolol many years ago for ectopics while adjusting thyroid meds, but it wasn't slow-release & I didn't continue with it long term.  I don't remember it improving my sleep, though don't be put off by that as the thyroid situation at that time complicated the issue.

Think I remember that like me you've had BSO?  That seems to complicate menopause, even if carried out when we are already post, as I was.

I would say it's worth trying the propranolol if your doctor thinks it appropriate.  You can always stop it if it's no help.  Please do let us know how you get on - I will be beating down the surgery door if you find it helps.

[Wrensong]

Oh, looks like slow-release starts at 80mg here?  No time to read this in detail this morning, but scanning it I see there's a section on interaction with sex hormones too . . .

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/6545/smpc

"Oestrogen and progestrogens, as used in the contraceptive pill, when taken with propranolol may antagonise the hypotensive effect."

[CLKD]

I have no idea if they were slow release.  I took 20mg at night to ease those early morning surges.  Worked for me.

Yep! I have dreams.  Busy.  Involved. Long.  The brain picks up a news item, finds someone not thought of for years: who knew that I had met so many in my Life  : runs with it.  In recent months I've been packing boxes, cases, vehicles but there's never enough space, paper - items keep appearing when I think that I've finished finding it all  and I wake, quite frankly, knackered.  They are not nasty dreams but Oh! So! Long!

I dream about my Dad.  A lot.  Sometimes he is very young like in the 'photos be4 I was born, other times he's a little older but never really elderly.

Fortunately I don't have to get up to go to work.  When we do set the alarm I feel hung over all day .  I rarely dream when I sleep in the afternoon ;-).

[Nas]

Hi vintage.
Think slow release starts at 80mg ( as wren has discovered)

It’s always worth giving these drugs a go, as the early waking episodes can be brutal.

I won’t suggest mirtazapine, as that is deeply sedating and from experience, the following day can be a write off!

Ashwangandha is meant to be good for sleep, but as with all these herbs etc, can take an age to get going in the system.

Try a low dose of propranolol at night and see how you feel with it? It may be just what you need? Which HRT regime are you on? Does it need adjustint at all?

I’m at deaths door sadly.
Been bleeding with pain on and off all year. Whatever regime I try, i just bleed.
Gynaecologist won’t scan me for 8 weeks. So tomorrow I’m going to call 111 and try and get a scan etc at the hospital that way. I feel sure something is brewing. Off Hrt and symptoms are brutal. Rock and hard place come to mind!

Anyway, keep us posted on the sleep.

Xx

[Wrensong]

I’m at deaths door sadly.
Been bleeding with pain on and off all year. Whatever regime I try, i just bleed.
Gynaecologist won’t scan me for 8 weeks. So tomorrow I’m going to call 111 and try and get a scan etc at the hospital that way. I feel sure something is brewing. Off Hrt and symptoms are brutal. Rock and hard place come to mind!

Nas, you've had a long, rotten time of it.  I really hope things very soon start to look up for you.
Wx

[Nas]

It would be great if things could improve Wren, but sadly I can’t see a way out 🤦‍♀️

[vintagefiend]

thanks again for all the replies

re the propanolol-i hadn't realised that it started at 80mg- that's alot higher than i was hoping for!! maybe my friend is just on 10mg standard release
i'll keep the possibility in my back pocket anyway.

i do worry about having had my ovaries out- iknow i shouldnt fret over what i can't change but feel really crappy about it at the moment.

Wrensong, thanks for response, can i ask- are you still on testosterone or am i right in thinking that you had to discontinue? how is your thyroid?

CLKD are you still on the propranolol? i was wondering if you had any crazy dreams/nightmares on that??!

Nas, i'm so sorry that you've had such issues with HRT and hormones and that you have this worry with bleeding. good idea to call 111- i hope you get into the system before 8 weeks. to be honest, i ened up going private for hysterectomy and bso- could that be an option for you? we took out a loan for it- one specifically for private medical care. am i right in thinking you're perimeno at present?

i'll certainly report back on my sleep- especially if it gets sorted!! i should say i started magnesium last night (thanks for the recommendation, Gnatty) for all this
obvs too early to assess just yet but i'll certainly let people know if it helps

thanks all and hope the future'sa bit brighter for us all  xx

[Wrensong]

Oh VF - don't give up on the idea, maybe talk to your doc about it eh?  Perhaps a low dose of the standard propranolol would be all you need, as per CLKD's experience & it would be a tragedy to miss out on something fairly simple that might be the fix you need.

Lots of women find magnesium helps their sleep so great that you're trying that.  Fingers crossed for you that alone might do the trick.  I would start low though & see how you are on it.  I found it very helpful pre-peri but these days can't tolerate more than 50mg a day.

You are right - I stopped T for a few weeks due to acceleration of hair loss, but other symptoms worsened & my lovely gynae advised starting again, so I'm taking it alternate days, the same tiny lentil sized blob.  My level was only ever mid-range taking it daily, so a bummer that it affects my hair that way.  Luckily I had very thick hair to start with so it still looks reasonable, but it's scarily relentless.  Thyroid as ever, complicates things - sorry I sound like a broken record, I know.  I suspect that's part reason for the hair loss.  With me (as with a few other members) it's the need for T3 as well as Thyroxine.  In a nutshell the thyroid condition is managed as best we can & I'm lucky to have a really fab Endo, but in an ideal world my T3 level would be better.

Have the teething probs with T settled, do I remember right it was making you feel really jittery?

You asked CLKD about nightmares - can I ask do you have them?  I do, I think related to the fact thermoregulation is totally shot.

Nas, have you ever managed to find a regimen that made you feel good apart from the bleeding - as Vintagefiend suggested I'm wondering whether hysterectomy would be an option for you?  Do you have a good doctor in your corner?

Were you a member back when the lovely Dancingirl was a prolific poster?  I think she also had probs with persistent bleeding on HRT & eventually gave up on it for that reason.  If she's still a member, maybe you could PM her to see how she's managed without it.  She was so helpful to everyone & very knowledgeable about HRT.
Wx

[vintagefiend]

Hi Wrensong-
you're always very kind:)
sorry you're having issues with thyroid as well and i do hope that the T works for you without the hair loss
yes,i had to give up on the testogel- at least for the moment- i have low shbg which led to extremely high free T levels on the smallest of amounts. i've started an exercise-and-eating-less regime to try to raise my shbg. hoping theni can try the T again.
i think it also impacts how i absorb the oestrogen - again,in desperation tried to up it by a smallish amount- half a pump oestrogel- and felt dreadful
i'm sitting here again having awoken after 4 hours sleep- thudding chest- this is soul-destroying!!
i think i will try the propranolol- just got to get gp appointment
nightmares do seem to figure in my life- though lately i haven't had them- i certainly had them on testogel and when i was cutting down my antidepressant- albeit slowly. and i do remember having them on th propranolol but i'm hoping they might go if i stay on it. so mine seem to be related more to whatever medication i'm on. sorry you're expriencing them.
take care xxxx

[Nas]

Hi Vintage,
Sorry you had a rough night again.
If it's any consolation, I was the same. Awake on and off all night with the thudding chest etc etc.
Just taken 40mg proprananol now, to try and calm things a bit. I may take it the prescribed three times a day, particularly as off the HRT for now!
When things get bad, I down a capful of nightnurse or Rescue night tincture.. often that works.

No real advice as going through hell this end..but just wanted to know that you are not alone.

Wren, the patch and utrogestan pretty much suited me, but the bleeds were getting too much.
I don't understand why they were happening, other than the utrogestan wasn't doing it's job?
Really I ought to try switching to a different type of progesterone, but Chelsea and Westminster clnic want me to have the scan first, which local gynae don't seem to want to do right now! I was given the option of a womb ablation, so might go for that when I finally get an appointment later next year.

I will cetainly look up Dancingirl, thanks.. there has to be a way round this without HRT (who knows!)

xx