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[EllaAurora]

Hello ladies,

I'm experiencing another bump on the road and wondering if anyone can relate. I've been sloooowly getting better during the past weeks, as I've gradually increased Estrogel dose (currently ca 2.7 pumps) and started Utrogestan higher dose continuously.

During the days I'm starting to feel quite OK'ish, not great and not fully my old self, but a lot better than before. I've also had reasonably good sleep, but the past few nights have again been a struggle.  I'm waking up several times, can feel my heart beating, sleep is very light -its almost like being half awake even when sleeping - and I've also got a few hot flushes/sweats -which I'm sure is one reason why I'm waking up.

I know the night sweats and waking up are classical meno symptoms, but I don't understand why I'm getting these now, as I'm otherwise better?! I can't figure out if this is a sign that my oestrogen is still too low, or could it be due to the fact that I'm applying Estrogel in the evening -can that cause the insomnia and put body to an alert mode? I remember reading from somewhere that also high oestrogen could cause hot sweats but I cant believe that would be the case for me, as I'm still on a relatively low dose and don't feel at all high oestrogen otherwise.

Can anyone relate? Any thoughts how to move from here?
Thanks so much again & hope you all feel well the morning. xxx

[CLKD]

There is a hormone, 'cortisol', which is responsible for waking us.  You may also be "Am I sleeping OK" therefore half waking up.  I do that sometimes 

Try to relax if you wake.  I used to have the radio by the bed with music on.  Most people drift in and out without being aware. 

[EllaAurora]

There is a hormone, 'cortisol', which is responsible for waking us.  You may also be "Am I sleeping OK" therefore half waking up.  I do that sometimes 

Try to relax if you wake.  I used to have the radio by the bed with music on.  Most people drift in and out without being aware.

Hi CLKD,
thanks and you are so right. I know I'm hyper aware at the moment and (over)reacting to every little thing. It's true that we normally drift in and out of sleep, but for me its like the second I wake I am "omg I am awake again ".. and that's part of the problem I'm sure.

I think its because I had such a horrible spring and so many nights of zero sleep, that now that I've been better for a while, I get panicky that I'm on my way back to the rabbit hole again..
I'm thinking of seeing my GP again, maybe to get something for sleep. Perhaps just the thought of having a sleeping pill available would already help me relax as I'd have a back up plan for sleepless night.

[Wrensong]

Hi,

I'm waking up several times, can feel my heart beating, sleep is very light -its almost like being half awake even when sleeping - and I've also got a few hot flushes/sweats -which I'm sure is one reason why I'm waking up

You say you are now on conti Utrogestan at higher dose?  Although many women find it sedative, there are a few of us on here who have the opposite effect from Utrogestan.  It makes me far too hot, causes palpitations & worsens insomnia.  Could you be on too much Utro now?
Wx

[CLKD]

I had years when I didn't sleep well, due to a very pressured job.  One night I woke and thought "It hasn't killed me yet and I'm not making mistakes at work".  I didn't have as many problems after that.  I had 8 years in that job which I enjoyed but OhBoy! 

It's about attitude.  What's the worst that could happen if you didn't sleep a wink?  In sleep clinics it is often proven that those who think that they don't 'get much sleep' actually sleep 'enough'.

What do U do when you wake, if I'm wide awake I read. 

[EllaAurora]

Hi,

I'm waking up several times, can feel my heart beating, sleep is very light -its almost like being half awake even when sleeping - and I've also got a few hot flushes/sweats -which I'm sure is one reason why I'm waking up

You say you are now on conti Utrogestan at higher dose?  Although many women find it sedative, there are a few of us on here who have the opposite effect from Utrogestan.  It makes me far too hot, causes palpitations & worsens insomnia.  Could you be on too much Utro now?
Wx

Hi Wrensong, thanks for your comment and yes, I've thought about that too. While I cant know for sure, I'm inclined to think its not because of the Utro. It's been the utro that helped me gain back my sleep in the first place. Since I started the continuous as per doctor advice, I've actually had quite good sleep, until -as said- very recently. But maybe it could be that the utro is no longer working as well.. can one develop tolerance to it, I wonder..?

[EllaAurora]

I had years when I didn't sleep well, due to a very pressured job.  One night I woke and thought "It hasn't killed me yet and I'm not making mistakes at work".  I didn't have as many problems after that.  I had 8 years in that job which I enjoyed but OhBoy! 

It's about attitude.  What's the worst that could happen if you didn't sleep a wink?  In sleep clinics it is often proven that those who think that they don't 'get much sleep' actually sleep 'enough'.

What do U do when you wake, if I'm wide awake I read.

Thats a good question CLKD. I realised while thinking about it that for me its actually not the sleeplessness per se (I can manage the day without sleeping if need be), but more that I take the sleeplessness as a 'sign' that things may be getting worse again overall.. Having just come out from months of being extremely unwell both physically and emotionally, I'm just terrified about the idea that I would have to go there again.. and then even a small negative signal, like the few nights of bad sleep, makes me to jump into full catastrophe mode.  So yes, you're right, I need to relax here. 

[Wrensong]

Great that the Utro has in fact helped your sleep & if your instinct is that it's not implicated in the recent worsening then I would trust that.  I'd just wondered whether it could be the effect of Utro building over time that meant you'd begun to have probs.  As a long term insomniac I sympathise.  With any luck this will just be a blip for you.

[EllaAurora]

Great that the Utro has in fact helped your sleep & if your instinct is that it's not implicated in the recent worsening then I would trust that.  I'd just wondered whether it could be the effect of Utro building over time that meant you'd begun to have probs.  As a long term insomniac I sympathise.  With any luck this will just be a blip for you.

Thats a good point and I'm also wondering, is there some long run effect of Utro which could turn things worse over time..or that my body is now so used to utro that it no longer has the positive impact as it used to have...

I've not been able to find any research on this, but have heard also before some ladies referring to 'utro building up'.. but I don't know what does it really mean. Is it like we build 'tolerance' to it so that impact is less, the longer we use.. or something different? Do you know more about this Wrensong? And may I ask, as you mention being a long term insomniac, any tips you could share that have worked for you?
Thanks so much again! xxx

[Wrensong]

From personal experience of every prog variant, it seems to accumulate with me, so that the more nights I take it, the worse I feel.  But I'm really prog intolerant, so at the top end of the scale in terms of adverse effects & Utro is the worst of the lot for me, so probably not the most reassuring member to chat to about it !  As you said you'd increased dose & gone continuous I wondered whether there was any leeway to reduce to see whether that got rid of the recent sleep issues.  Do you mean you now take 200mg every night?

My insomnia long pre-dates menopause so can't blame it all on that   Better sleep is the holy grail for me, but accepting I'm not a gifted sleeper & paying insomnia less attention, has relegated the emotional impact to some extent.  During peri when it was at its very worst I found that listening to guided meditations on my MP3 when I woke in the small hours helped relax me.  Counter intuitively, avoiding exercising to exhaustion by day also helped & reducing as much as poss other situations that overly stress body & mind.   Regular formal meditation sessions by day also reset the body to a calmer state & over time that seems to help sleep.  These days I tend to do breathing exercises to get heart rate down when I wake too hot & carried on for long enough, they do often help me drop off again.  For a while!  I sleep in a cool bedroom on a silk topped mattress designed to stay cool & use blinds & blackout curtains to keep the room dark.  I have a big glass of cold water by the bed & drink some of that when I wake too hot, too early.  I also had to change time of main meal to lunchtime as eating a big meal in the evening made me too hot at night.   I do have a little supper just before bed to avoid waking with too low blood sugar & again that helps to some extent.  Oestrogen & testosterone do improve my sleep but prog is an absolute killer!  Still working on it.

[EllaAurora]

Thanks again Wrensong, for taking the time to respond.

I have not found myself being prog intolerant before, so that is probably not the case (unless meno has changed that too in my body, which wouldn't be a big surprise given how many other changes have happened during the past year  ) When I still had regular periods (before HRT), I felt always the best during second half of the cycle and the days before period. During HRT, I've not had any issues with utro and it has been particularly helpful in making me fall asleep. I still fall asleep nicely, but as said, keep waking up then several times a night.

I'm taking 200mg daily which is a high dose, but my doctor wanted to test if that would help with the sleeplessness and anxiety (which it actually did, until a few days ago). I tried 100mg before but that seemed to just flow through me without much impact. Maybe I am not metabolising it very well, as I remember also one blood test showing quite low prog, while I was on 100mg daily dose.

Thanks for the many advices you share, especially the one to pay insomnia less attention is something I need to start practicing. That's my real weak point -having always been a good sleeper, its so weird for me to not sleep and I'm catastrophising it, I know.

[Wrensong]

I was lucky never to have much in the way of PMS so seemed to tolerate my own prog without noticing it until peri began, then very quickly found 2nd half of my cycle brought the worst of symptoms, esp the few days before a period when insomnia was very troublesome indeed.  So you & I seem to be quite different there & that bodes well for you.

Like you, I also rarely have probs falling asleep but I can't maintain sleep. 

Again, I would trust your instinct as regards Utro being helpful, as you can always rethink later if need be.  Try not to beat yourself up for being concerned though.  So much changes at this stage of our lives  it's only natural we find some of it pretty unnerving.
Wx

[CLKD]

I understand a bit: I never want to feel ill with depression again.   

Relaxation can be difficult.  Have U tried working the muscles from the feet up: tense/relax/rest.  I don't usually get as far as my thighs 

[Floo36]

Judging by my own experience with complete insomnia from low Estrogen,  it may be that your own hormones dropped as they will until menopause.  The rollercoaster is cruel, you think things are improving and then wham back down again. 

What is your next move?

[EllaAurora]

Thanks again ladies, really helpful.
I'm thinking that I may not make any immediate changes yet, but will see for the next couple of days how things develop (and try to relax in the meanwhile). CLKD have to try the tense/relax/rest thing
If i haven't had a good night sleep by the end of this week, then I'll try and increase oestrogel a little bit to see if it helps.

Floo36: that's the thing, it may be my own hormones again in the background but I'm not sure if oestrogen is dropping or increasing. I remember now that that sometimes during high oestrogen I also had difficulties sleeping, so I wonder if it could be that. I'm struggling to understand how my own oestrogen could fall further as I haven't felt at any point it'd be increasing..but I guess anything is possible.