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[Two hoots]

Care homes are not included in most other countries statistics I read, only hospital rates, that's why they are not included.   

It's not a nice thing to admit but if you are in a care home you are likely to be elderly and probably have medical conditions, any widespread flu like virus would have the same result if it's contracted there  care home staff need to be recognised for the efforts they are making at the moment, poorly paid and vastly under valued workers.

[Hurdity]

BBC news are now quoting weekly figures, daily deaths are not going up as much as they were so they've found a new statistic to keep up the bad news 

They are still quoting the daily figures but the ONS data are released weekly on Tuesdays and are very important because they do include all the other deaths and look at total xcess deaths compared to the 5 yr average, and yes the care home deaths are included. Quite rightly there has been  A LOT of publicity about the care home figures and the forgotten side of this dreadful pandemic. Did I hear that 2000 care homes had had infections of the virus in England alone. I haven't looked at the simulation and exercise re a potential pandemic and the (ignored) recommendations but I wonder if the impact on these settings was given special recognition and the need for  measures to be put in place in the same way as in hopsitals re protective equipment, testing and isolation?

As an aside (well quite major!)I am also wondering how this pandemic would have panned out in UK if we had had a female prime minister like Germany and new Zealand who took decisive measures earlier on in the pandemic stage than we did. (Not Maggie though!!! )?

Hurdity x

[CLKD]

WRONG! care home deaths have not been included, the government became aware of the death rate today and how numbers have not been included.  Also, neither staff nor residents are being tested so the problem is going to be, that when staff go sick, what then?  They haven't been contacted by any one from Government with advice or to enquire what they might require.  The Care Sector has been totally forgotten - my sister works in care and our Mum is also in care and does not have any underlying conditions.  She takes NO medication and is fit.  93 and thriving.  So why should she be put at risk? 

The Home went into Lockdown long B4 the government suggested it. 

It wouldn't have made any difference male/female because the government decided not to prepare for C-19 after the meeting in 2014.  My sister has been begging the NHS for PPE for 15 years and has had nothing - she manages a secure care unit. 

Pity that the UK keeps comparing what happens here with the rest of Europe.   

[CLKD]

Confirmed on the BBC News at 10.00 - deaths from care homes or in the community have never been included in the over all rates..

[Two hoots]

My family in New Zealand say they don't get nearly as many visitors as the UK and that's how they've had a lower number of cases.  They started the lockdown a week after us in New Zealand but they were told it was going to be four weeks minimum from the start.

[CLKD]

Those countries now lifting restrictions have had a resurge, due to incomers   

[Hurdity]

WRONG! care home deaths have not been included, the government became aware of the death rate today and how numbers have not been included. 

CLKD it's not really necessary to be so extremely rude when you disagree with someone, to shout and exclaim in capitals so triumphantly.  How about "I don't agree" or "I think you might be mistaken" which would be more polite? It would be bad enough if you were correct in your statement (that I was wrong) but even worse that actually I was not. Nothing in my statement about the weekly ONS deaths is wrong as far as I can see.

The thing is, as is the case with anything to do with science and statistics, detail is everything so your statement "care home deaths have not been included, the government became aware of the death rate today and how numbers have not been included." is not precise enough when we are talking about several sets of figures.

Confirmed on the BBC News at 10.00 - deaths from care homes or in the community have never been included in the over all rates..

And no, this was not confirmed on the news at 10 pm. You are referring to the daily deaths and I was specifically taking up Two Hoots' point about the stats released yesterday. These are different.

To repeat, the weekly ONS data released yesterday (for the week up to 3rd April) includes deaths from care homes, and elsewhere but the data lag behind the daily NHS hospital deaths, so is not up to date but is nevertheless illuminating. If you want to look in more detail and for a more precsie explanation, a readable summary and a few graphs I suggest you go to this link which explains better than I can.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending3april2020

What was more worrying was the large number of excess deaths (compared with the 5 year average I think) that were NOT attributed to Covid-19 indicating that even more people may be dying in the community (inlcuding care homes) from this terrible disease and it not being recorded. Another possibility was also put forward, that there could be more deaths from other causes if people were not calling the doctor for emergencies due to Covid-19 and therefore dying as a result. For that particular week I think the discussion tended towards fewer deaths being recorded as due to CV-19 than should have been. Since then guidance on death certification I think has been updated. I did look it up a while back....it is also possilbe to put more than one cuase of death eg covid-19 and pneumonia. This is explained in the ONS data.

I thought I should clarify in case anyone else was confused about the data.

Hurdity x

[CLKD]

For 15+ years my sister asked the NHS for more PPE equipment. This isn't a statistic, this is working practice.  It was never considered essential from higher up, even when pressed by the various Unions.  They won't spend the money in order to protect both staff and patients.  They insist on un-attainable 'targets' set by people who have never wiped a bottom ...... nor sat by patients to give comfort or pain relief.  Bean counters rule.

Having been in contact with several care workers including my sister who is a Nurse at a care home in recent weeks, this area of health care has been forgotten.  No PPE or advice offered. No replies to questions sent to government.  Also Matt Hancock as good as admitted yesterday that the care industry and care homes in particular, had been over looked.  From the horse's mouth .........

I watched the reports every day initially.  None included deaths in care homes until it was pointed out by the Community Care groups in the last few days.

Deaths in care homes were not taken into account: which are far higher than is usual 4 this time of year.  9+ in one home, don't tell me that is expected, even taking Novo-virus or seasonal 'flu into account.  I don't need to read links but tend to believe those who work in care and are at last, being interviewed to give their stories.

Mum's Care Home has a weekly GP clinic which continues.  District Nurses do 'end of life' care.  They are in lockdown.  Hopefully it will be enough to keep residents safe from infection. 


14th April Confirmed on the BBC News at 10.00 - deaths from care homes or in the community have never been included in the over all rates..
. That's enough information for me. 

[jaypo]

The media would have us believe that our hospitals are out the door with covid patients,now don't get me wrong, I admire ALL the staff who work in the nhs,every single one of them but you can now look at all hospitals in England and Wales (every single one) who have had patients die from covid and each hospital has had one or two,bigger places i.e London Birmingham etc,then the figures rise to 25 or so but in our heads we have visions of bodies piling up,it's just not true,Say 700 people die overnight then divide it by all the hospitals,the figures are tiny,hospitals across the U.K. are used to these numbers dying daily

[CLKD]

Also after all that rush to build 'nightingale' hospitals, it has been stated in the media that they won't be required  so what happens to all that equipment ? landfill ?  Where will the Staff be fetched from, other hospitals?

Why aren't patients taken straight there leaving hospitals for those that need other treatments?

[jaypo]

Exactly,yet another knee jerk reaction,certainly put people suffering with covid to that hospital and I appreciate there are a fair few but pleeeeease let's quit with the daily updates of death, I know it's sad but death is a fact of life. I am so so sorry for the elderly though,it must be so scary for them in those care homes 

[CLKD]

A good report about C-19 D. Certs. etc this morning ;-).  DH has enlightened me.

[CLKD]

This is better ?

More than nine in 10 people dying with coronavirus have an underlying health condition, figures from the Office for National Statistics show.

The ONS looked at nearly 4,000 deaths during March in England and Wales where coronavirus was mentioned on the death certificate.

In 91% of cases the individuals had other health problems.

The most common was heart disease, followed by dementia and respiratory illness.

On average, people dying also had roughly three other health conditions.


16.April 2020

[jaypo]

This was taken from a medical paper Covid-19 was the underlying cause of death in 3,372 deaths in March, which is the equivalent of 69 per 100,000 people.
It accounted for 7% of all deaths in England and Wales that month ? 9% of all deaths for males and 6% for females.
The mortality rate for men who died due to coronavirus was 97.5 deaths per 100,000 population, while for women it was 46.6 deaths per 100,000, the ONS said.
Including cases where Covid-19 was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate, the death rate for men was 113.1 per 100,000 for men and 54.1 per 100,000 for women.
Puts it in perspective a bit

[CLKD]

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