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Author Topic: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause  (Read 36733 times)

Penelope

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2020, 05:49:30 PM »

Thanks Wrensong.
I have managed to only Aquire my blood tests back 13 years and they show I swing between hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism and that is classic for Hashimoto's.
between  these times they are normal.

But be aware some results that are not in normal range have been commented on as normal range by the  doctor.
My endo Thinks none of my symptoms are due to thyroid even though I have had the symptoms for 26 years?
I have emailed him thanking him for his report.And asked him the question.
Does having been diagnosed with Hashimoto's not have any symptoms?
I am still awaiting an answer.
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Wrensong

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2020, 11:08:09 AM »

Hi Kathleen & Penelope,

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It did occur to me that I may have been dealing with low Thyroid function for some time without realising it. As I've said before I asked for a Thyroid blood test 18 months ago but wasn't treated as I was just within the normal range. Given that hormones fluctuate throughout the day I assume  my thyroxine levels could've been much lower at times.

I think we're all probably right in suspecting any earlier classic symptoms suggest our later diagnosed thyroid condition predates that diagnosis & possibly by a considerable time. 

I feel for you both because as mentioned before, by the time my Hashimoto's was diagnosed in my early 30s, when I already had a goitre, I'd had some of the tell-tale symptoms for a good few years, though in the early stages not to a debilitating degree.  I was lucky the goitre (small but contained a suspicious nodule) was noticed by a surgeon treating another condition.  He did a biopsy there & then which showed sky-high antibodies, arranged a hemithyroidectomy & prescribed a low dose of thyroxine to prevent further enlargement of the goitre during the 5+ months wait for surgery - all before I left his consulting room that day.  Very kind of him, as he was not an Endocrinologist & in fact it was some years later before I even got to see one. 

Suspecting hypothyroidism was behind my health probs, which had become so debilitating I'd recently left my job, I'd repeatedly asked my GP whether I might have a thyroid problem & was always told no.  I was never told hormone levels from any TFT carried out before the biopsy confirmed Hashimoto's, so I don't know whether they were within range or possibly mildly abnormal, i.e. at a level where it's not considered sensible to start treatment.  There was less transparency & a more paternalistic attitude than there is these days. 

As soon as I was diagnosed I made sure always to find out & make note of my TFT results, though there was often resistance to my having them - the standard response being "the doctor is happy with them".  As receptionists were never authorised to let patients have their results, I felt bad about having to be put through to a busy GP for these. The doc would then usually just say "they're fine", so I'd have to push uncomfortably for detail, with one GP I remember asking crossly why I wanted to know.  Not an issue now, as needing T3 means I have to see a private Endocrinologist & have bloods done privately.

Pretty much as I sense you both are with your situations, I was shocked by the diagnosis of Hashimoto's with a goitre requiring surgery, which seemed to explain a lot.  Started to learn all I could about thyroid conditions, both for self-help & to be confident I could hold my own with medics & have some control over treatment.  I always recommend that newly diagnosed patients do the same, as it's unfortunately a field that seems to be poorly understood by many medics & many patients don't ever get to see an Endocrinologist, "uncomplicated" hypothyroidism being considered appropriate for GPs to manage. 

Also very unfortunately for patients, as with menopause, there's controversy over treatment & we often face a struggle.  As Penelope has sadly found & as mentioned earlier, there's debate about the point at which treatment should be started.  The need for T3 is another serious, polarising issue for some patients, as is the use of "natural" thyroid extracts such as Armour, which some feel better on than synthetic replacement hormones.

The Thyroid UK article by Dr John Lowe I suggested earlier Penelope might like to read is interesting as it deals with the issue of whether or not raised antibody levels give rise to symptoms in patients whose hormone levels are within the ref range.  My feeling is that if there's a disease process ongoing, as there clearly is, there will likely be systemic effects from it.  I'd long understood that patients with Hashimoto's can experience symptoms of both under- & overactivity as the condition progresses, the antibody attack causing the thyroid to release hormones in a haphazard manner.  So that over time there can be hormonal chaos, comparable to what happens in perimenopause as the ovaries progressively fail.  So I'll be very interested to hear what your Endo has to say in response to your question on this subject, Penelope & I do hope you manage to get appropriate treatment if your HRT leaves you with symptoms that are clearly thyroid-related.

Kathleen, though I knew that thyroid hormone levels fluctuate throughout the day as you say, I was surprised to learn only a few days ago as mentioned above to Baby, that being tested after eating has been shown to produce a lower TSH than if bloods are taken in a fasting state.  This obviously has implications for both diagnosis & management.

It's a huge field & beyond the basics, hellishly complicated to get to grips with, so we're all up against it to some extent.  Can only help to share experience & any knowledge or insights we manage to gain.  Please keep posting everyone, to let us know how you all are.  My heart goes out to you.  :hug:
Wx
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 09:46:48 AM by Wrensong »
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Wrensong

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2020, 02:26:36 PM »

Penelope,
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"My endo Thinks none of my symptoms are due to thyroid even though I have had the symptoms for 26 years?"

Sorry, head's all over the place at the mo!  Meant to say I'm so sorry your Endocrinologist's opinion leaves you in a difficult position.  Is there any chance you can see another if you continue to feel unwell after a reasonable trial of the HRT he's prescribed?  I imagine it'll be a huge relief if you find that controls some of those difficult to be sure about symptoms that can come with either menopause or thyroid probs.

I've had a lot going on past couple of years & I'm often not in a position to keep up with the forum, but try to log on now & then & at least check for PMs.  So just wanted to say again to any ladies with thyroid probs, there's a good few members in our position for support, but if there seems to be no-one around or you're worried about something I might just be able to help with, please send me a PM.  I'm certainly no expert but have been round the block a few times & would hate to think of anyone feeling alone with worries if sharing them might help.
Wx
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 09:49:56 AM by Wrensong »
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Penelope

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2020, 09:50:19 PM »

Hi Wrensong I think the simplest way to put it is that I feel like I have been going through menopause for 26 years!
I am now only 42 days on HRT and so much has been sorted in that short time.
It's been my hormones all these years!
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Wrensong

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2020, 11:37:19 AM »

Hi again Penelope

Quote
I am now only 42 days on HRT and so much has been sorted in that short time.
It's been my hormones all these years!

That's so good to know & so promising for a much better future for you  :) :).  What a relief that must be.  I'm not sure where that leaves you in relation to your feeling that longstanding thyroid antibodies have been at the root of your health problems though?  Do you feel the HRT is somehow regulating the autoimmune response?  If your thyroid has been dodgy to some extent long term I imagine that will have had some systemic effect, including other endocrine glands - ovaries etc.

I'm interested in the roles the different sex hormones are thought to play in immunity.  That's why I asked earlier whether your Endocrinologist had maybe suggested that HRT might prevent progress of your autoimmune thyroid condition.  Did he explain why he was prescribing it?  Presumably purely for menopause if he didn't think the thyroid antibodies explained your symptoms?

I find it worrying that so many women seem to become hypothyroid around menopause, raising the question of whether the higher levels of sex hormones in fertile years, or maybe the right balance of them, is somehow protective.  I'm interested in the suggestion in the medical literature that oestrogen is thought to have proinflammatory properties & testosterone antiinflammatory.  As always with the endocrine system, not as simplistic as that, making it hard to understand!

Can I ask whether your HRT includes testosterone or one of the more androgenic progestogens?
Wx
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 11:42:23 AM by Wrensong »
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Penelope

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2020, 06:18:11 PM »

Wrensong I am on Kliovance HRT it has no testosterone.

If you google Hashimoto's and HRT you will read why it's an effective medication. I am also told over time it may help to shrink my Goitre.

I have certainly had my symptoms for 26 years.Its said by the time they find it you have had it for a very long time.

My bowels for the first time are amazing I am REGULAR, and normal.

When you have Hashimoto's you seem to have diarrhoea all the time or swing the other way and have 5 normal bowel motions a DAY!
I am finally not feeling hot all the time many people get the feeling of cold but I was always so hot and used to always be in summer clothes all winter.I understand this is also a symptom of Graves' disease and apparently you can have both.So to have temperature control switched back on is bliss
The weight has just started dropping off. Since starting HRT so the metabolisms switch has also been put back to normal.

https://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/hashimotos-thyroiditis/thyroid-hormone-replacement-therapy-hashimotos-thyroiditis


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Hurdity

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2020, 08:50:10 PM »

Hi Penelope

I know very little about all of this but just to say the link you gave does not advocate HRT to treat Hashimotos but thyroid hormone which is what Wrensong has been discussing and differentiating from HRT- I explained the confusion of terminology in an earlier post. Here in UK and generally we do not refer to thryoid hormone replacement as HRT which is exclusively used for sex hormones. Kliovance is HRT but not what is referred to in that article as "thyroid hormone replacement therapy). I am still very confused by what you're saying.

I also haven't come across the idea that Wrensong mentioned about the inflammatory and anti-inflammatory properties of oestrogen vs testosterone (very interesting) but just to say that Kliovance contains the testosterone derived progestogen known as norethisterone - and as such one of the more androgenic progestogens.

While I can't begin to understand any of the complexities of the conditions and symptoms that you are Wrensong are experiencing - I am very pleased to hear that you are feeling better Penelope!!

Hurdity x
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Wrensong

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2020, 10:34:23 AM »

Penelope, I'm very glad to know that the Kliovance is helping your symptoms.  Long may it continue.  I would just reiterate that it's probably sensible to make sure your doctors keep an eye on your thyroid, as you may find that there is eventually a need for thyroid treatment in addition to your menopause HRT.

Hurdity, won't post links here as not directly relevant to this thread but if you are interested I came across the first refs to Testosterone's anti-inflammatory actions when researching the dry eye aspect of Sjogren's for which I'm currently under investigation.  Had a heartsink moment when it was documented (Ophthalmology journal) that Sjogren's patients seem to do worse on HRT than without it & that those on oestrogen-only fare the worst.  I had expected oestrogen's reputation for improving dryness to apply to the eyes too, but it seems that androgen deficiency is thought to be implicated in DES & Sjorgen's.  The more I delved, the more refs I came across suggesting oestrogen may have pro-inflammatory properties & T anti-inflammatory. 

There are also articles relating to pro-inflammatory effects of oestrogen in Rheumatoid Arthritis, Lupus & MS & the suggestion that T might be the factor that affords men more protection from autoimmune disorders.  I'm keen to know whether T might help my longstanding inflammatory dry eye condition which has worsened considerably since BSO (& consequent loss of the T ovaries are said to go on producing for many years postmenopause), especially as this has now been described by 2 Ophthalmologists & a Rheumatologist as severe.  Struggling to understand the pro/anti-inflammatory mechanisms, especially with the complication of aromatisation of T to oestrogen.

I mentioned the different sex hormones' inflammatory & anti-inflammatory properties I'd read about, thinking this might be of interest to Penelope & Kathleen, given the concern about why we develop autoimmune thyroid disease & the difficult position some patients find themselves in during the earlier stages, when they may feel they have thyroid symptoms their doctors are reluctant to treat as the disease has not progressed to the stage of consistently demonstrable dysfunction (i.e. hormone levels outside the ref range).  It's sometimes suggested that autoimmune thyroid patients take measures to reduce the inflammatory processes ongoing in their bodies & doing so may reduce feelings of helplessness.  For instance, GF diets are a self help measure increasingly being promoted.  I wondered whether T, or the more androgenic progestogens such as Norethisterone, might be similarly useful to those of us with autoimmune disease who need HRT for menopause symptom relief.  Coincidentally, long before I was referred for suspected Sjogren's, one of the early changes I'd noticed on starting my first HRT, Evorel Conti with its T-derived Norethisterone, was a totally unexpected increase in saliva.  The salivary glands are also progressively damaged in Sjogren's.  I rest my case!!  A long meander, but hopefully a little bit interesting, at least perhaps to you & Kathleen.

Kathleen, I believe you've researched extensively in relation to dietary management of digestive inflammatory conditions, but can I ask have you come across references to the inflammatory/anti-inflammatory properties of sex hormones I mentioned above?
Wx
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 10:33:41 AM by Wrensong »
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Penelope

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2020, 07:03:16 PM »

I am so amazed that HRT has fixed my balance problems.
I have quite often had a dizzy feeling and being a Tai Chi teacher I would notice I would wobble on a couple of moves.
When I mentioned the improvement I was told of course thyroid has a lot to do with ears!
Oh what doctors never tell us.
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Kathleen

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2020, 07:55:06 PM »

Hello again ladies.

Wrensong -  I have not come across any specific mention of the inflammatory or anti inflammatory aspects of oestrogen or testosterone and I think someone quoted Dr Newsome  as saying that oestrogen was the anti inflammatory hormone but I could be wrong on that. It's all very interesting and anything we can learn to help ourselves is a bonus in my opinion.

Wishing you well.

K.

.

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Wrensong

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2020, 12:34:18 PM »

Thanks Kathleen.  I will have a search for what Dr Newson says on the subject.  The papers I mentioned were research articles & the complexities leave me struggling to arrive at any meaningful conclusion. 

There seems to be a dual role for oestrogen as regards inflammation - some pro-inflammatory & some anti-inflammatory effects, with genetic factors, possibly balance of androgens & oestrogens & stage of any ongoing autoimmune disease, all affecting response. 

I'm just trying to work out whether there's anything I can do to improve the DES/Sjogren's or at very least not exacerbate it, given my need for HRT for menopause symptom relief.  As Evorel Conti with it's androgenic Norethisterone noticeably increased salivary production for me, I latched on to what I later read about T deficiency being implicated in Sjogren's & am trying to decide whether to start the T I've been prescribed while only on very low dose Oestrogen - a combination we're usually warned against.

How are you feeling on the Thyroxine Kathleen - any further improvements?

Great that HRT is helping your balance probs Penelope.  Many women report problems with dizziness at menopause - a horrible symptom I've had myself.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 12:37:43 PM by Wrensong »
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Kathleen

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2020, 05:01:15 PM »

Hello again ladies.

Wrensong.  Thank you so much for asking how I am.
I have now been taking 75 mg of Levothyroxine for four weeks and I'm still having symptoms unfortunately.  My hands and toes remain icy cold most of the time but my moods are distressing me the most.  I read that being nervous, emotional and with cold hands are typical Hashimoto's symptoms and quite frankly that list describes me to a tee. I will be having another blood test next week so when the results are in I'll know of my thyroxine levels have increased at all. 
Incidentally I have discovered Brooke Goldner MD who had Lupus for over a decade but resolved her condition with lifestyle changes. Well worth doing some online research.

Wishing you well.

K.

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Wrensong

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2020, 07:06:59 PM »

Oh Kathleen, so sorry, but still very early days given how high your TSH was & even a mild deficiency can have effects on mood.  Please try not to expect too much of yourself.  Impossible to be sure exactly what's behind it, but your next TFT results might help throw some light on that.  If your UC is well controlled I wouldn't have thought you'd have probs with absorption of Thyroxine. 

Two possibilities do spring to mind for the cold hands, nervousness & feeling emotional, which is a combination I find I get in stressful situations.  Typically hospital appts produce an acute stress response for me - on the way there in the car peripheral circulation shuts down, leaving hands, feet & lower legs ice cold, but I'm aware I'm also anxious & sure enough when my BP & pulse are taken they're way higher than at home.  In situations of chronic stress I get the same response day after day.  Your body has been under chronic stress without the thyroid replacement it needs.  I wonder also whether it's partly a reaction to the sudden increase in thyroid hormones - 75mcg is quite a high starting dose - not high for maintenance, but maybe a shock to the system in someone with quite a marked deficiency.  It's also naturally a very anxious time - I remember only too well the anxiety after being diagnosed - it's a shock & that takes time to get over.

The 2nd thing that comes to mind is that I think I remember you are now off HRT?  I wonder whether these are menopause symptoms again/still.  With thyroid badly out of balance your body will not be equipped to cope as well with other challenges to equilibrium & as we all know, menopause is certainly that.  Tbh I imagine it's a combination of thyroid, menopause & wholly natural worry about what this latest diagnosis will mean for you. 

Please don't lose hope though.  Getting your thyroid stabilised might take a little while, but it really should make a very big difference to your wellbeing in the long run.  Please don't be alone with any worries.  Have a good chat with your GP or your hypothyroid friend who's done so well, come on here & let us support you, or send a PM if it feels too personal to broadcast sometimes.  A much better time lies ahead for you now your GP knows what's going on & can treat you appropriately for it.  In the meantime please be kind to yourself, do whatever makes you feel best.  Your little white pills will work their magic in time.

Thank you for the mention of Brooke Goldner - I'll have a google.
Wx
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Baby

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #73 on: January 20, 2020, 03:00:29 PM »

I have had my tsh done and awaiting results. Also doc got me to do a 24 hour urine collection thing to check adrenals cos I am having loads of panic attacks. Got a bug also and feel awful. Finally gone off sick from work after suffering terribly for four months.x
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Wrensong

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Re: The Link Between Thyroid Disease and Menopause
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2020, 03:17:42 PM »

Hi Baby,
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Finally gone off sick from work after suffering terribly for four months
  Sorry to hear you are still feeling so rough.  Take care of yourself & get as much R&R as you can.  Please let us know how you get on with your results.  Hope you feel much better soon.
Wx
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