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Author Topic: Running out of options  (Read 12375 times)

Conolly

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2019, 11:41:33 PM »

Dear Racjen,
I've been thinking about you this evening and I've done a bit of looking around. If you go on the British Menopause Society website, you'll see that they are holding a study day (aimed at nurses) on 29th April 2019 entitled “Beyond Cancer, Living with an Induced Menopause”. This is exactly your situation - yes? I wonder if you could contact the BMS and see if you could get hold of the course material (you'd probably have to pay for it) or even attend it? Presumably the course/lectures are being given by a health professional. Could you get their name and see if you could consult with them? I wonder if this could be if any help to your specific situation which no-one has been able to get to grips with so far xxx

Hello AgathaC,

Brilliant idea! Racjen's experience might be of interest for them as well.

Conolly X

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Conolly

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2019, 11:49:04 PM »

Racjen,

This article corroborates that anxiety hits hard women who had never experienced it before menopause.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3641149/

Conolly X
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NorthArm

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2019, 04:02:19 AM »

Hi Racjen

I'm so sorry you're poorly again - I have been thinking of you.

I've suffered from anxiety my whole life, but menopause anxiety feels so completely different to normal anxiety it's another thing altogether. I used to get flashes of it during pmt whilst I was peri....but until Christmas it was constant for at least 18 months and no one should have to live like that.

So, I decided to take the Utrogestan bs into my own hands. I'm on a 100mcg Estradot patch and am using the Utrogestan 100mg vaginally for only the last 7 days of my ‘cycle', and am getting a damn good bleed from it. Like you I'm fine for the first 3 or 4 days, am struggling by about day 7, and am suicidal by day 10. Then there's the worst pmt ever...so I'm doing the Studd regime - 100mcg patch, 7 day 100mg vaginal Utrogestan.

The first month was fine, but I still was only at about 60%. So I added testosterone to it about a week before Christmas. At first, I wondered what I had done to myself, because that bloody awful anxiety hit me again, so much so that I took an extra dose of mirtazapine (I take 7.5mg nightly for sleep) in the morning for about three or four days 😐😐

However, on day 10, it was about 7pm and I was driving home from my brother's place, and an amazing calm spread over me - and I hadn't taken the mirtazapine for about two mornings at that stage, because I'd decided to tough it out - it was incredible. And I can honestly say that since then, I've effectively been at about 85 - 90% of who I used to be. Which is a relief!!! I had a day of it again Monday past, but realised in the evening that I had forgotten it was patch change day that day...so clearly it was letting me know ‘oi, more oestrogen'.

Why don't you try the Studd regime of only 7 days vaginal Utrogestan? And give yourself a good couple of months on it? That way, if it's bringing you up a bit, then you could start using testosterone alongside? It might mean having to tough it out a bit longer, but over the longer term you might end up feeling a bit better?

I really hope you find some relief soon xx
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Ladybt28

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2019, 12:35:27 PM »

morning racjen - how are you today.  So looking at the answers to you questions... here are some observations and some of what you have  written sounds like where I was...
Past
(1) So I was waking in a complete panic in the mornings very high anxiety and I was waking up nauseas.  I would be anxious all day and had a sense of doom and the worry I couldn't complete any task properly. I made mistakes and I forgot things just like you on a pretty grand scale from 1-10 we were permanently at 9 and then some days the full 10!

(2)  I couldn't sleep, my brain felt tired but when I lay down and closed my eyes (sometimes I couldnt close them actually) my mind would race and I would be wide awake sometimes throughout the whole night to about 4-5 in the morning, sleep for a couple of hours if lucky and then wake with a start.  More often than not any sleeping meds didnt work (except high levels of diazepam which my dr prescribed sparingly but not enough to get me into any pattern).  It was like I was on high adrenalin all night being  beyond overtired but unable to sleep.

(3) when I was on continuous progesterone I was totally suicidal- dangerously so.  Some progesterone was worse than others.

(4) I tried 5 types of hrt methods before I got one that worked. I could not manage on (a) everol of any kind, (b)Femeston, (c)Tridestra, (d) Provera progesterone + Premarin and I was on (e)prempack for 6 years before it was discontinued but it wasnt working and I didnt know any better over a total period of 10/11 years.
Present
I have been on oestrogel and utrogestan on a cycle for the last 7 months. - anxiety and panic gone/nausea gone/doom gone/foggy head so bad I thought I had alzheimers gone/agriphobia gone/acid reflux gone/sore joints from meno gone/tooth ache and earache from jaw clenching intermittant/insomnia scale of 1-10 now a 3/racing mind rare/flushes gone/itching skin gone/irritablity scores 3/jumpiness in legs gone/left sided face ache around my left eye gone.

Remaining was depression but now not the suicidal sort anymore but it is aggrivated at the time I take my Utro. I feel it creeping in by day 3 and I cannot get to 12 days!  Still a bit poorly motivated and lacking in concentration scores max3.

So I'm with Northarm when I read over what you have said.
(1) My first point is that you have only ever been on evoral as a delivery method of your oestrogen.  It was high at 200 but it did the job to get your levels up - it is now at 100 and the patch delivers continuously.  Observation - (a) maybe the continuous delivery is contributing to the anxiety (b) maybe the dose is still too high for you (everol never touched my anxiety in any format sequi or conti) - Conclusion - you have changed other parts of your hrt regime but everol has remained constant.  Maybe changing this will work better for you.

On that note - ref oestrogen - I think you need to try another patch like Northarm uses Estrodot or use the oestrogel pump. (I think a lot of the other patches have been discontinued??? - ladies am I right or is there something else racjen could consider?)  The gel pump method is very flexible because you are in control of how many pumps you use.  You can start at 1 and work up to 4.  Instead of continuous delivery at a certain level you can actually find out what level of oestrogen suits you body instead of trailing back to the GP every 5 minutes for different levels of patches or having to cut them in half etc.  You may find that only 1 or 2 pumps cuts the anxiety and insomnia.

(2)  I would agree with Northarm - you have to have some form of progesterone but it has to be a short cycle.  I myself am moving to only 7 days as per the studd regime and taking it into my own hands because I am still struggling with the depressive tearfulness etc on 10 days and I can barely manage to get there just like Northarm.  From what you have been posting sounds like you are a candidate to try the studd regime.  Try Utro for 7 days only for a good3 months and see how you feel. I think.

Testosterone - it took 6 months to sort out my gel and my utro (and the utro is still not right but getting there).  I have only just started on the testosterone with the tiniest blob twice a week.  The only difference it has made is that it has taken away a weird tired feeling I had behind my eyes and my brain feels more "present" in the real world but I have only had two full weeks.  I would count out testosterone for at least 6 months or even longer until you have all the other symptoms under control.

If you GP is unhelpful ref gel/estrodot and studd regime then AgathaC has a brilliant idea about finding out who is the expert talking at this conference on Cancer Induced Menopause because it fits your circumstances perfectly.  If you arent  allowed to go or couldnt go then just find out who the expert or experts who are speaking because they must be discussing treatment.
or

You could write to Dr Currie outlining these specifics and she will sort a letter to your GP
or
or someone else wrote in a post another consultant you could see and you replied but I just cant find the name :)
or
you could just go to your existing consultant (I'd try to get a phone consult first because it is a long way away from your home to go to the clinic in Poole to just to go) and say I am unhappy with what you said at the consult, I have been doing some research and this is what I want to try (gel/estrodot/7 day utro because....(I am pretty sureif you make the case they would let you try)

I think evoral could be the main problem.

Hope I am not speaking out of turn  :) :foryou:



« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 12:47:36 PM by Ladybt28 »
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CLKD

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2019, 12:44:40 PM »

 :thankyou:  Girls.  Wise advice.
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Abba Fan

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2019, 03:49:11 PM »

Hi NorthArm, Prof Studd told me that bleeding heavy after withdrawing from Utrogestan means that the prog is not doing it's job well. He told me I needed a stronger prog or the mirena coil.
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Ladybt28

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2019, 04:26:32 PM »

Sorry Abba Fan and for anyone else out there.  Maybe I'm way off ... I thought that any bleeding heavy or otherwise meant that the progesterone was doing it's job which is to shed the womb lining and not allow it to build up?  Well in a cycle regime anyway.

If you are on continuous regime I thought the idea was there shouldn't be any bleeding at all because the oestrogen levels are balanced by the continuous progesterone and it stops the lining building up.  If you get spotting on continuous I thought it meant that either you have too much oestrogen and not enough progesterone or vice versa but the balance was out of sync?

One of our more "clinical" ladies who understands this stuff like Hurdity might explain???
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Conolly

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2019, 04:50:47 PM »

Hello Ladybt28,

I guess the key word here is 'heavy'. If you are on sequential regimen, the scheduled withdrawal bleeding is not supposed to be heavy. If that happens it means oestrogen is building up the endometrium beyond what's acceptable. If you are on continuous regimen and for any reason have to stop HRT altogether and you have a heavy bleeding that means your endometrium was thick and that's not supposed to happen on a continuous regimen, hence the suggestion to change progestagens.

Conolly X
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CLKD

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2019, 04:52:22 PM »

I had *heavy* periods for years  :'( but as it was part of my cycle I never wondered why.  Would last up to 3 days.
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Ladybt28

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2019, 05:00:25 PM »

Hey Conolly,
My periods were always "heavy" when I had my periods, I would have been a "flooding" girl so now I am on this regime the flow is less so I thought it was ok.
I am on a high dose of oestrogel 4 pumps and am going to a long cycle 28 days + 7 x 200mg utro - can any of the ladies on such a cycle give me any clue as to what I should be expecting for a bleed?

If the lining is coming away and I can cope with the bleed - does it matter if it builds up but comes away?  Help :-\
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Conolly

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2019, 05:10:13 PM »

These are 2 different scenarios: one is a natural period and the other is withdrawal bleeding from HRT. They are not comparable.

I can't say what's expected on a long cycle, but as long as you are shedding enough to keep the lining under a reasonable thickness it's OK. This probably varies amongst women and of course a scan now and then is necessary  to monitor the endometrium.

Conolly X
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Droopeydrawers

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2019, 10:06:42 AM »

Great post Petrichor DD 😘
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CLKD

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2019, 11:01:40 AM »

 :welcomemm:  Petrichor

Where's racgen  :-\
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Tc

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2019, 11:11:10 AM »

Petrichor. I know it's not my thread but I was so interested to read your post.

I've gone into surgical meno at 53 and had immediate severe symptoms  I'm finding hrt a struggle too.

I had been wondering whether the fact that I was not yet in menopause before surgery  made the crash more severe and have been confused about the difference between hrt in suremeno and natural meno in terms of hrt. I think I was naturally heading for a late meno and the instant drop was devastating.

Do you mind me asking if you have any links to the articles you mention?

 The only info I could find in the beginning seemed to say that its always best to keep ovaries if you can. In fact some of the stuff I read about ovary removal realy realy upset me, won't go into details but one site actually called the surgery something realy nasty and put forward the idea that my body has been irreparably damaged . It made me bitterly regret the surgery and seriously hindered my ability to come to terms with it. I now know to avoid these particular sites but the seed was planted and in my fragile emotional state what they were putting forward was realy damaging.

I only come on here now and have tried to stop randomly googling so I would be interested if you have any links.

Glad you have found alternatives which work for you

I know your reply was for Racjen but it has helped me too.  Especially hearing that your symptoms naturally lessened as time went on. I realy didn't think that would happen without ovaries and it gives me hope.
Thank you

And Racjen. I truly wish you all the best and hope you get sorted and start to feel better soonx

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Shadyglade

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Re: Running out of options
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2019, 11:13:37 AM »

:welcomemm:  Petrichor

Where's racgen  :-\

She was here at 9.26 today.
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