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[CLKD]

I see that Martina Navratilova has 'angered the transgender community' - Sat Telegraph  .  Off to read the article ;-)

[sheila99]

Careful now CLKD - remember you are ignorant and narrow minded for bringing this to our attention, you can't mention anything that might offend the poor dears.  Perhaps every second-rate male tennis player should dress up as a women so they can win something, after all if they wear women's clothing and call themselves by a female name they must be female...  

[CLKD]

  ...... it's been known that men who change into women still enter and obviously win events ......... means the women don't have a chance.

When that Pro-tour-de-france Cyclist altered from male to female she went into commentating.  Wish I could remember her name  .  Didn't try to compete on a non-level playing field.

Robert Miller now Phillipa York:

“The thing that counts the most is not how famous are you going to be, it's how happy, and that counts more for me than any kind of success.

“I deal with my transition in two parts: Robert was the cyclist and Philippa isn't the athlete - she doesn't do any competitions.”. a well spoken article .......

[Dorothy]

Another concern is that telling or suggesting to very young children that they may be the 'wrong' gender can really mess with their minds.  Everyone is very concerned about poor little children who are the 'wrong' gender and don't get any help, but we don't hear much about those who are TOLD they are the 'wrong' gender and need to change.

I was told by a well-meaning, desperate-to-be-open-minded-and-supportive youth worker at an early age that I was a lesbian because I wasn't interested in boys.  Actually, I was just a late developer and at 11 or 12, boys were still 'yuk' because everything romantic was 'yuk' not because I was interested in girls.  This messed with my mind so much, because I worried that I was 'supposed' to feel interested in girls, which I thought was even more 'yuk' than being interested in boys.  And when I DID start to develop an interest in the opposite sex, I was worried that I was 'wrong' to do so because I'd been told that I was a lesbian!

I was also a real tomboy, always in trousers, hated skirts, loved climbing trees, playing with trains...I'd often say I wished I was a boy, because boys seemed to have all the fun games and didn't have to wear silly clothes.  I'm just very thankful that back then, no one came rushing along to 'support' me in my 'need' for gender reassignment.  If it took me that long to recover from being told I was a lesbian, goodness knows how much damage would have been done by telling me I was the wrong gender!

Just let children be children.  If any of them have any truly serious issues, this will become evident very quickly and can be dealt with.  But adults shouldn't be putting ideas into their heads because it can take years for children to recover from the damage this does. 

[CLKD]

Well said Dorothy.  Where does all this rubbish come from .......... those that trans-whatever usually keep it quiet anyway unless in the public eye.  If 1 watches children at play from about age 2 they will pick uni-sex toys regardless; after 3 they will choose appropriate toys: tractors for boys, dolls for girls ......... boys will pick up a stick and wave like using a weapon, until they get old enough to use them to chase girls  .

[Kathleen]

Hello ladies.

I don't have any first hand knowledge of this subject so please correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it males experience a testosterone surge when their testes develop in the womb. Another surge occurs at age six and then of course at puberty. Each event results in physical,  mental and behavioral changes. I also understand that many children feel that they are in the wrong body from a very young age and find this very distressing.  I believe there are endocrinologists who help  children by delaying their puberty so that they can receive the appropriate psychological treatment before nature decides their gender for them.

 Surely keeping quiet about such a fundamental aspect of  life is impossible and hopefully unnecessary in these enlightened times. 

Take care everyone.

K.

[Conolly]

Hello ladies,


From the scientific point of view, this subject is very complex and still a matter of debate, so anyone claiming that transgender is rubbish is being judgmental and prejudiced. Genetically speaking, there are many possibilities besides the XX - female and XY - male norm. Some XY are phenotypically female (lack of 5 alpha redutase enzyme, lack of functional testosterone receptors). Some XX have masculinization of genitals, due to congenital adrenal hyperplasia (excess of androgens). When the subject is sexual orientation it is even more complex because Science is just beginning to understand the implications of steroids in brain development.


Here's a good minireview on the subject of Hormones and Human Sexual Orientation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/

Debating newspaper's headlines is a fruitless effort. They print what they want, regardless of accuracy. Their sole purpose is to attract attention and it's up to the wise reader to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Conolly X

[CLKD]

Conolly - that's interesting.  If I could understand it all  .  How often do these anomalies occur in Nature?  I never found out what the chap I knew who was raised as a lass had in the way of differences. 

I do love genetics but need the ins and outs in front of me, i.e. there are more ginger female cats than people are aware of.  That a tortoiseshell cat is always female although some can have small testes too ........

However: this article I raised is an edict from an Educational Authority.  No need for it to be in the public domain, this should be a topic between parents of a child who is querying their sexuality and the medical profession.  Not that boys can have periods.  Without ovaries, a womb and nature boys simply can't.  So no one should insist that they are educated otherwise. 

[Conolly]

Hello CLKD,


First of all, they are not 'anomalies', they are variations. Genetic variation is what makes us unique. XX males occur 1 in 25,000 while XY females occur 1 in 80,000, but these numbers are roughly an average estimate, because intermediate states occur, from mild to complete insensitivity to androgens, for example.


I understand your point of view but again, this is not what the Educational Authority has stated, it's just a newspaper headline. If you read the Brighton & Hove City Council published document you won't find 'boys can have periods'. https://present.brighton-hove.gov.uk/Published/C00000968/M00009226/$$Supp30547dDocPackPublic.pdf


If you read the same subject on The Telegraph you will read 'boys can have periods too' in the headlines, 'all genders can have periods' in the first paragraph and 'Trans boys and men and non-binary people may have periods' in the third paragraph. So that is clearly a case of misinformation tactics.


Regarding children's education, it's virtually impossible to let it to parents and the medical profession. They learn more things from the internet and the streets than any parent or NHS GP could possibly dream of.


A person who has decided to be regarded as a specific gender may have periods. Period.


Conolly X

[CLKD]

Tnx.

[Ladybt28]

Conolly - can you clarify?  - are you saying that if the "chromosome anomolies" occur which cause the "variations" then you can get a "broadly" genetic male born with a womb? or does that "human" not define as male but "intersex"?  Sorry if I haven't phrased it right, but surely you still have to have a womb to "menstruate"?  Therefore if you have one then that must then follow that the majority of the "variations" point towards female or am I understanding what you said wrongly.

[Conolly]

Hello Ladybt28,


There are many possibilities, it's a range of variations, each one corresponds to a different DNA mutation. An embryo carrying XY chromosomes may be completely insensitive to testosterone (a mutation affects the testosterone receptors that are non functional). This person will be raised as a female, because the general appearance and the genitals will be female. The internal sex organs will not be functional, no uterus and a short vagina. These women are diagnosed only after puberty because they don't menstruate (amenorrhea) and after a thorough examination the doctor will find testicles in her pelvis or abdomen. Sometimes the testicles can become cancerous so it's advisable to excise them (gonadectomy). Historically the male genotype (XY) was not disclosed to the patient but now everything is explained and the patient is supported by genetic and psychologic counseling.


The female phenotype always occur in the absence of testosterone or its receptors, independently of the genotype ie the presence of the Y chromosome. Actually the entire chromosome is not needed, only the bit that has the genes responsible for   the initiation of male sex determination (SRY or TDF). So if this bit of the Y chromosome 'jumps' to the X chromosome during meiosis (the cell process that produces sperm and ova) you can have a male fetus with XX chromosomes. These men will have male sex organs and genitalia but they are infertile and some may have other features like small breasts, female hair pattern, short stature and low libido.


These are just the tip of the iceberg, there are many other intermediate cases. Some of these intersex situations may be responsible for the existence of transgenders and non-binary people.


Boys, girls or intersex without uterus will never have periods. Maybe the newspapers people and politicians could ask advice from Geneticists before publishing things they clearly don't understand.


Conolly X

[CLKD]

Wow! the older I get, the less I understand ...........

[Come on Rosie, rosin up the bow
For the more I learn, it's the less I seem to know - 'Rosie' Dave Swarbrick]

Love the cat avatar too 

[Conolly]

You're welcome.


If you'd like to know more about it, this is a great source of information http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex


Conolly X

[CLKD]