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[CLKD]

When people are trying to help it can seem as though their way is 'it'.  When we are stressed/low suggestions aren't 'read' the same as if we were rational.

Stop beating yourself up!

[jaypo]

Totally agree with clkd,DO NOT beat yourself up,it's out of your control,you need support not criticism

[Saffy]

I hope you don't mind me butting in Peroxideblader but I have been reading some of your previous posts about your sleep problems. I have had what I believe is Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder (DPSD) since my teens (undiagnosed) and it really does look like you have developed it, probably triggered by menopause or possibly some other traumatic event around the same time?

Most of us with the condition have followed all the suggestions from the research such as melatonin, light boxes, blue blocking glasses etc. to little avail. In my case they have improved the quality of my sleep and reduced the daytime grogginess but, ultimately, I still fall asleep at 6am and wake at midday and find it impossible to shift. It has been very hard at times and I am lucky to have a very supportive partner but ultimately my health has been preserved by following this schedule rather than fighting it. If you can sleep a decent number of hours by following your own schedule please, please try and find a way to do so or your mental and physical health will suffer enormously. So many people with this condition fight it and are physical and mental wrecks, functioning only with a cocktail of daily pharmaceuticals.

[Ladybt28]

I've always had a dodgy sleep schedule. My best time of day is between 9.30pm and 2 am!  If I go to bed at 10pm I can be wide awake till 4am and then quite happily sleep in until 11/12 or even 1 in the afternoon.  Really unhelpful!!. I have done all the sleep hygiene stuff and found the only way to override it is taking melatonin tablets really high dose at about 9pm which means I can be asleep by 11 but I am just rubbish in the mornings and always have been  And yes, Saffy you're right fighting it to fit in with others is a pain in a..se.
I use a "cocktail of pharmaceuticals" as you put it if I have something I know I need to be up for because the chances are I would be awake all night until it was time to get up and then be feeling sick and groggy during the day and actually falling asleep at 2.30 in the afternoon, but I try and stay away from the synthetic prescribed ones.  I use melatonin, valarian hops and may throw in an antihistamine.  To be honest I don't think we should beat ourselves up about taking natural meds or sleeping tablets if we have to, because sleep deprivation is beyond bad all round.  Just do what you have to do to make it bearable - no need to feel like you failed somehow and you "should be able to manage" like everyone else, cos that's what we say to ourselves  Well, we can't manage like everyone else so tough!

It's interesting my parents always told me from the day I was born I was a nightmare for sleeping, awake all night, sleep in the day!  Maybe we are born like that?  I have found that my hrt has stopped the afternoon drowsiness but it hasn't changed my schedule - can still be wide awake at 2am if I let my body do it's thing. I never knew it was considered an actual disorder though Saffy.

[sheila99]

There's a reason sleep deprivation is used for torture! I think it was a lot of the reason I felt so bad, probably you too. It's impossible to function normally when you're sleep deprived. HRT improved my sleep enormously. I didn't try but perhaps sleeping pills might help temporarily? I am sure HRT will improve your temper too, it did mine. There is hope, you can get the old 'you' back, perhaps not 100% but pretty close. There is a reason he chose you to share his life with. You may need to try different HRT regimes before you find one that suits you. I know it's easy to give up but you need quality of life for you whether or not you decide to stay with your OH. Also worth looking after yourself in terms of diet, exercise, relaxation etc.
 Vent away, most of us have a hard time with meno and can sympathise with how you feel.

[EnglishRose]

Hello ....well my 8 year marriage could be over soon we've had a talk tonight and I'm not the person he met I know I'm not. I used to bite my tongue a lot of the time and yes we've had a really bad stressful 2 years with my ever declining health and work issues but these last 6 months I can't seem to bite my tongue it's like 8 years of pent up anger and resentment have all come out. I'm so low everyday and just can't seem to cheer up..I know I have this severe sleep deprivation which makes me down and ratty but I used to still jump out of bed and crack a smile on my face albeit usually fake..now I lie in bed under a massive black cloud very very anxious and depressed.
I know I'm negative and moody now and I nit pick at my fella where before I just took all the bad stuff and kept it inside...
I am ruining his life and he's miserable I'm miserable and I really think I'd be better on my own for good..then I can't hurt anyone or let my moods affect any one else...
the reason I posted is I'm sure this is hormone related as I've been peri for years but the highs and lows are now just lows..can anyone else understand this in a relationship just suddenly becoming this frank no bullshit snappy person from nowhere..I am just so scared this menopause crap will lose me my marriage because I will leave him so he can find someone fun loving happy smiley all the things I'm not...I am seeing a private endocrinologist in January regarding my underactive thyroid the nhs won't confirm and she deals with menopause too so I'm hoping to see if anything shows on tests...I know meno tests are very unreliable in peri...just hoping someone else has felt like this ( I've told my fella I think it's menopause with it being like pmt full time but he's not one for compassion and thinks I'm just using it as an excuse for turning into a nasty miserable unlovable bitch) HELP

My bad me only appeared 7 weeks ago and for me it's mostly lack of conversation, I don't laugh or have the “fire” in my belly I used to have. I don't get angry or bitter with him but went through a phase when I would say to him how he would leave me bc I'm not going to be the person he fell in love with. He would hold me and tell me he'll always love me.
Now he's not a bad man but he's not a perfect man, who is.? 
How can they relate?
Bottom line.
If he's a self centred partner who isn't there for you maybe you have every right to be bitter with him.
It's hard to leave a man and be alone...more so at our age. I was never good at being alone.

We tend to take each other for granted in long term relationships, maybe some time spent apart might just give you both time to reflect on if you still love each other or not.

you need to put you first right now. You need to explore HRT options as one brand does not mean others won't work. You need to consider ADs it's noth to be ashamed of, I'm on them ever since peri kicked me in the fanny.
And I hope the consultation with the thyroid specialist reveals something that can lead to treatment x

[Saffy]

Just to clarify Ladybt28, when I mentioned Pharmaceuticals I meant proper heavy stuff like Seroquel, Ritalin etc. not the sort of stuff you (and I) might use. There are a number of Facebook groups and a mailing list set up by a sufferer who participated in the early research into Circadian Rythmn Disorders and the type and quantity of prescribed drugs many of the members take (mainly in the US) is scary  .

You sound like I was in my twenties, able to pull the sleep back when necessary from a similar sleep preference time. Unfortunately for many, including me, this spirals out of control over the years. Hence my now 6am sleep time  . My aim is now simply to hold it steady and not slip further (which I can do very easily).

For reference this is the most comprehensive site on this and related conditions : https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/info.php#CSD

[Ladybt28]

I did know what you meant Saffy, but in terms of tablets of any kind, herbal, over-the-counter or prescribed medication I think some people feel somehow guilty that they have to resort to taking anything at all. Maybe its just me but I'm sure you have met all those smug people who say "oh no I wouldn't take those if I were you" or "I don't like taking stuff even paracetamol" meaning they wouldn't take anything even something very mild, but continue to suffer without knowing whether it would work or not and make them feel better.  I know the drugs that are scary - I was prescribed some in combination which made them scarier and I got rid of them too when they didn't work.  I think you just have to weigh up the risk and whether there is any alternative

I know what you mean about spiralling - as you push the early hours forward towards early morning, the longer you need to sleep in and the longer you sleep in, the more it moves towards everyone else waking up! 

[Peroxideblader]

Thank you..I have apologised to my fella tonight and told him again I still think he'd be better off leaving and finding someone else but he just said..oh I'm used to your moods and hypochondria I just ignore it...so I felt even worse then..said my hypochondria !!! are you having a laugh..I don't invent illnesses don't lie about illnesses I don't have in fact I am such a strong woman and I genuinely know if most women had had my life for the last 40 years they'd have taken their life years ago...I hide my worries my hurt my desolate feelings behind a smile it's only this last year since was youngest moved out that I could shed the odd tear during my awake hours between 11 and 4am knowing my son wouldn't walk in and see my crumble..so for the first time I'm showing him and telling him how I feel and how I can't control hormones they take over....bla bla bla but he'd zoned out way before just said you'll be fine tomorrow it's just your grumpy ways...aarghhhhh..takes nothing seriously even my health...oh well least we're speaking..
as for dspd I am so shocked but pleased I've found someone else who has it. I didn't mention the illness as I thought people would like I'd made it up. until I joined a dspd fb forum I didn't know it isn't medically but most people are in USA and can life with theirs by keeping to their correct body schedule like you ladies have but as we have our own business I've had to be a day walker and get up at 8 to 8.30am.
I really wish it was recognised as a disability like it is in so many other countries because it is a form of torture when you are judged and classed as lazy undisciplined if you get up later than the norm! I take melatonin lose dose every night or it'd be a 7am or no sleep and quarter dose of zopiclone..I feel pathetic weak and a let down by needing drugs to get even a paltry 4 hours sleep. I find it so hard as I wasn't like this up til 6 years ago I always got up 4 or 5 timessage a night for a wee since I was a toddler but I was a lark and even the occasional 9am rise I feel like I'm not normal..my other half gets pissed off as he needs me from 7.30 on site so 930 is not good..but he gets 8 to 10 hours sleep every night and God forbid he misses an hour he's like a raging bull..yet expects me to survive on 4 hours sleep battle menopause thyroud problems heart issues and poorly son without having some bad days..
can I ask the 2 ladies sorry I forgot your names..how you got around the stigma of not getting up til 12 noon what do you tell people about your dspd...my neighbours are all elderly go to bed at 8pm up at 5 am so they find it shocking I don't open my curtains til 9.30...lazy lump they jokingly say...which Im not...xx

[Ladybt28]

Yes of course you can ask - its a bit of a tale, loads of it listed in other posts. I have been "ill" (I hate calling it that to be honest because like you I feel I should apologise, but in my posts to you I have told you don't have to worry about what others think! stupid huh... anyway) with anxiety and depression for more than 30 years, starting when I was a teenager.  Long story short now at 56 I can look back and see that loads of my issues were hormone based which possibly could have been treated, but 40 years ago hormones were even more of an anathema to the medical profession than they are now and its difficult enough to find someone who deals in hormones now.

I struggled through my 20's and when I look back at what I did and what I accomplished I actually don't know how I managed it at all!  My first child was born when I was 26 and I was working full time, had 6 months maternity and went back to work full time but I struggled beyond belief and even more because I suffered from bad postnatal depression  By the time I got to about 29/30 it got to the point where I had to keep being off work sick (3 to 6 months at a time) so I became self-employed and set up my own business working from home. I managed to square it that I was home when my son got home from school and I had my 2nd child at 32 so it fitted in with looking after the children, no more childminder fees to pay!  Getting them to school on time was a challenge but I used to collapse once I got home or catch an hours snooze before they came home!  Basically since the age of 28 roughly I organised my life round my "illnesses" and have done so ever since. I never get to my desk before 10am and that's a very good day, but I can still be at my desk at 11 or midnight - because I am a night owl - I work when I am able.  The trouble starts when I have to have meetings, appointments and conferences and when I have to talk to big organisations between the hours of 9-5 or leave to get somewhere before 10 am.  If I'm involved in the planning I usually make it for an afternoon and if asked won't take a meeting before 11 am. If I need to be somewhere I make sure I take heavy doses of my melatonin at 9 in the evening.  I try not to take them on a regular basis so I know they work when I have to take them.  The other days I just accommodate the sleep problem.

I am exceptionally lucky because I work with my 2nd husband (who I explained is a saint!) and have done so for more than 15 years so when I am not at the desk to answer the phone he holds the fort.  I still feel the most awful guilt when I open my eyes and usually my first words are "how late is it"?  But I have had to accept that this is how it is over the years because trying to fight the anxiety, depression, dodgy sleeping patterns, lack of sleep, children, running a house, sick and elderly relatives etc etc instead of accepting it, was impossible.  Family know its a problem but sometimes make fun and I just have to laugh it off. It's totally hidden from others and this is the very first time I have ever told anyone about my days and what goes on behind the scenes in my business. I beat myself up all the time about "how unprofessional" I am and because I keep everyone at arms length so I don't have to explain anything to them , its very isolating.  I have had to adapt and reorganise and I have had to force myself to accept the issues I have faced (some have been treated now and life is a bit better and the children are gown) because if I had'nt I know (sounds dramatic but it's true) I would'nt be alive today.

Peroxideblader you work in your own business too right? but it might not be the kind which can be reorganised as easily as mine. You have the problem of an unsupportive partner too who places demands on you early in the morning and expects everything to be "normal".  My ex-husband could sleep standing up.  He was a milk delivery person where the milk needed on the doorstep from 6am in the morning so he went to bed at 9pm and would get up at 3 or 4 am to go out on his rounds.  On a Friday which was a long day he would work from 3am to 1pm in the afternoon.  He was always asleep - guarranteed when his head hit the pillow and it used to drive me crazy - towards the end when things were really bad between us I could have strangled him in his sleep - I think you said somewhere in a post - even his breathing annoys you - so I know how you feel!

Its really tough but in all this you must hang on to the fact that you are not physically ok in yourself and you must put yourself first in order to be able to get a handle on all this and you need to get proper treatment.  But now you know you are not some freak and there are others of us out here who face/have faced the same sort of problems 

[Saffy]

Hahaha, I see we are all up! Really interesting to hear your story Ladybt28. TBH I seem to have swerved most of the stigma by withdrawing more and more from 'normal' life as the condition has progressed. I've had some form of DSPD for so long and assumed it was insomnia when I was younger (as many do) so friends from those days and family just knew that was how it was. Of course, back then, I could still manage a more normal schedule and was just accepted as a night owl, plus I was always somewhat self-contained and single-minded  .

I managed in a similar way for several years, 'through volunteer work, post grad stuff, work but it was starting to kill me and those I knew could see what was happening. I wish I had known much earlier how the DSPD was going to develop. I would've factored it into my career and life choices rather than waste all those years training for work I was never going to be able to do  . In the end I came to the end of a short term contract, couldn't get any related work at all and we bought a house to renovate. I pretty much dropped out - fortunately my OH earned enough to support us both but I 'paid my way' by doing most of the renovations myself, intending to go back to work at some point. If we had needed me to I would've had to take some sort of part time/shift work but my schedule slipped further and further and I haven't worked in any formal capacity since. This shocks people much more than the DSPD! Most people are perplexed at what I do all day but I'm an introvert and an only child and have never struggled to fill my time. My OH is accepting and has adapted with little complaint (that's not to say he has never been frustrated by it) and I will be forever grateful for that.

We moved from Brighton to Devon just before perimenopause kicked in big time (bad move) so the DSPD, which spiralled after the move plus meno stuff has resulted in me withdrawing from 'normal' life even further. I have no local friends just a few people I 'know' so sometimes I tell people I work shifts to stall the questioning, sometimes I just tell them upfront that I have a sleep disorder, giving details if they ask. Most just seem to accept it but I guess things may be different if we had a proper friendship. I think most people just see it as another one of my quirks such as my mad grey curly hair, choosing not to have children or drive, my introversion and need for time alone etc.

I have very little close family and they seem bemused at times but know me well enough not to push their luck! My dad has massive sleeping issues himself so I tell him my DSPD is his fault if he questions it (there really is often a genetic component  . At the end of the day it is just how it is, it is isolating and lonely at times but I have had to come to terms with it and if people want to have a relationship with me then they have to accept it too.

[sheila99]

I know it's easy for me to say but please shout it from the roof tops (if you feel confident to). People accuse you of being lazy when you don't get up because they don't know it's a medical condition - me included. I'm sure they'd be far more sympathetic if they knew. So thanks for sharing, I have learned something today.

[Ladybt28]

It seems I've got it and I didn't even know it was a medical condition Sheila99!  The difficulty is that people of my age were born and brought up in the 60s/70's when there was still this idea of strong work ethic 9-5, women keeping house where the expectation level of "how you should be" was ingrained.  My grandfather was a regimental sergeant major (although I never knew him).  My grandmother (on my mum side) was "in service" on a big house on Guernsey when she was young so my own mother was brought up with pretty strict almost Victorian values and I'm afraid she passed some of those "issues" onto me!

The world has changed so much but I still feel I have to hide my health issues which although they are connected, if you listed them would appear to be many! primarily because I don't like the labels that go with them and the judgements people make that go with them. 

I didnt know there was a genetic component to it either Saffy? - my mother didnt sleep well, had horrendous menopause, had trouble conceiving (so underlying gynea/hormone issues probably) was described as "highly strung" (that's an old phrase if ever I heard one) so maybe she is the culprit! 

So peroxideblader -what do you make of all the sleep stuff?

[Peroxideblader]

wow I feel like crying but in a good way..I've found 3 others that have dspd it's fantastic..because no disrespect to anyone here who has helped me you've been so lovely it's my sleep that affects alot..not only in low mood and depression but trying to lead a so called normal daily life i e 9 to 5 bed at 10 up at 7 etc..which I've tried so hard to do because society only accepts the norm!
it's awful that we all either make excuses why we can't make early appts or why we sleep in but we have to..because it's sleep and the effects are hidden we look normal we function eat care for our kids so there's nothing wrong just GET AN EARLY NIGHT...God I hate that regular patronising comment...!!!
I luckily have no friends and only my dad left talking to me but he doesn't do feelings and caring it's just a functional weekly chat about the weather my kids bla bla so he has no idea about my bloody awful health..
classic case today I asked my fella if I could get up at 9.30 real treat and if he could get up at 8.30 nip the dog for a widdle  ( he goes to sleep flat out for 11pm so 8.30 is 9 half hours) ..well he didn't and I was woken by loud banging on our door..our joiner come to finish some work off at 8.45...he knows not to come til 930 gives me half hour ish to come round get dressed afyer my 4 hours sleep but he laughs it off says you lazy cow get up earlier you'd get more work done...aarghhhhh..I've had 7 months of renovations at home total back to brick and every single tradesman has sarcastically said they're not coming later than 8 o'clock start I should get to bed early and not be a lazy sod...it's been soul destroying...I feel a failure as I don't fit into the normal bracket and get judged all the time..any other illness which those is is accepted and not judged but this one isn't...
I've got to get up for 8am tomorrow we've got a busy day but the stress of the pressure to sleep will make it that I won't sleep as I'll get so anxious and panicky I'll be awake all night..
don't you find the worst part is how lonely you feel in the early hours. I do read books lots of them but I mainly use the darkest hours before dawn to cry and cry and let all my upset come out whilst no one can see me.
recently with this peri stage I can burst into tears during the day too when I just want someone to make it all better..go to sleep for 5 years and wake up feeling better and being able to sleep. my mum and dad are both erratic sleepers but the other way they wake early..my mum sailed through her menopause not one symptom but my nana had breakdowns was sectioned on and off for almost 8 years and it ruined her..guess that's me then@
thank you so so much I mean that..I don't post on here to open my heart or to moan I feel selfish but this time I'm glad I did..😊😊

[Taz2]

I hope you manage to get some sleep. So hard when sleep just evades us. I can manage on 5 hours although it is interrupted sleep. I find that I sleep better if I go to bed between 12.30 and 1. This takes me through to 6 which is when I get up for work anyway. If I went to bed at 10 I'd be awake from 3.

Sending sleepful hugs to you.

Taz x