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Author Topic: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level  (Read 20545 times)

Meeka

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3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« on: January 13, 2017, 04:56:21 PM »

I have been using 3 pumps of oestrogel for over 12 months and recently had a blood test to measure my serum oestradiol level.   The normal range states 93.00 -1400.00 pmol/L on the result sheet.   My result was 128 pmol/L .    I was quite surprised as I expected this result to be higher.   I am nearly 54 so probably post meno .   I have been using HRT since I was 49 and initially when I started using 3 pumps my serum oestradiol level result was around 1000.00 pmol/L.    Do you think the level is lower because I am now making much less oestrogen myself?  I guess so....nothing else has changed.      Prof Studd likes to keep my levels high as my bones need it.
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Tinkerbellj

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2017, 06:43:40 PM »

hi. don't have an answer but very interested in any info as I am on four pumps for 7 months and my reading was 544! Gp didnt comment if it was good or not and I had no idea! still dont lol
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murphydurf

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2017, 08:03:00 PM »

Hi Meeka - I'm having blood test next week as I suspect I'm in exactly the same position. Prof Studd  prescribed me 3 pumps in Aug 2015. It worked well until around summer 2016 so he said to up to 4 pumps. Even with 4, small sweats day and night, insomnia, low mood/energy and terrible joint pains made me move to patches which were worse. I ended up on 2 x 75 patch to get symptom removal but got scared I was using too much so asked doc for tablets. I now use a combo of tablets and gel as I know that I'm absorbing tablets but not sure exactly what I'm getting transdermally. I'm only using a combo in order to use less tablets as they're not the safest option but if I find they're the best option, I'll just continue with them. I've used E for many years now so I know when I'm absorbing/not. Gel is really variable for me and patches are almost negligible. I believe this is unusual regarding transdermal but it does happen. If I find the tablets are best, I'm going to ask for implants as I don't want tablets for too long and I'm certainly not ready to give up HRT.

Mx
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Hurdity

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2017, 08:21:51 PM »

Gosh that is low Meeka! Just goes to show that one particular HRT type may not be the answer to your prayers. I have never used estrogel but I think it is subject to more variation because of the way it is applied. if you get it right and absorb it it's brilliant. Some women ( short and slim) have got levels of 600 on 2 pumps!! Yes you will be making less of your own oestrogen - so you might have been ovulating at the time you attained levels that high - but even so that is still a very low level on 3 pumps! It could be a  one-off though - difficult to say just from one measurement. I would want to have another at a different time of day before increasing - has Studd suggested this? However if you're not absorbing .....

When mine were last measured several years ago they were 220 or something on a 50 mcg patch - and that is sufficient to eliminate symptoms for me.

Murphydurf - yes unusual to get better absorption with tablets as so much is usually lost to digestion - but perhaps not in your case.

What a trial it all is for some of you!

Hurdity x
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Niamh

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2017, 09:22:03 PM »

Mine were 218 this week and I'm on 2 pumps, I'm 42 and this was with Studd too. They were around 600/700 last July so I'm miffed too especially as my own cycle has been suppressed now...but I feel fine no symptoms so im undecided whether to increase to 3 or just leave at 2.
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Niamh

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2017, 09:25:11 PM »

Just noted your comment Hurdity I would fit the short and slim type as I'm a size 8 and about 5,3 I think I feel like I absorb it well, very confusing which is why Studd doesn't go on the results he just goes on symptoms but you can't help worry!
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Tempest

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2017, 09:40:57 PM »

Murphydurf, I've had EXACTLY the same issues as you with transdemal methods. My Consultant has been monitoring me closely. For some ladies, absorbtion via transdermal methods can be very problematic despite very careful application (and I was VERY careful)!

Another issue that was mentioned to me was whether you are able to absorb and CIRCULATE the hormones sufficiently. It has been observed that some women absorb and hold the hormones in their tissues locally but they don't then circulate to give good systemic levels. Now this is interesting! Transdermal methods can be every bit as variable as oral methods, it seems! Thank goodness we have some good Consultants out there who are monitoring and noting all these variables - it will help I'm sure in developing more effective HRT delivery methods in the future. My Consultant uses implants when all else fails - and  has seen a number of ladies who can't tolerate/absorb either transdermally or orally, so I think  implants should be more widely available so that these ladies can be helped.


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murphydurf

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2017, 10:36:07 PM »

Hi Tempest - interesting about the circulation thing, that would explain what happens with me. I'd started manny years ago on combo tablet HRT and only had probs with the prog element so I knew I was absorbing the E. I've gone through the wringer on transdermal with some really quick and extreme low E symptoms. I'm doubted myself s lot because so many women seem to do so well on low dose transdermal. Since starting the E tabs it's very obvious, very quickly that I'm absorbing more. I do absorb some gel but it's really inconsistent and seems much better on arms than lower body which again is apparently less safe. I'm going to do a couple of months on tabs and gel and if it's defo ok on tabs I'm going to ask for implants for long term. I don't like being difficult but have only run into E probs with transdermal. Thank you for your post, it puts my mind at ease somewhat.

Mx
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Hurdity

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2017, 12:07:09 PM »

Yes Tempest - the inter-individual variation is enormous in how much women absorb estradiol from the different methods! In fact have just checked my go to source paper for all of this and this is the same for patches and tablets ie lack of consistency between individual women - and also depends on other external factors.

I hadn't come across the info about estradiol being “held” in the skin so that's interesting. This source paper I usually quote from about absorption and which I have posted about before, suggests up to a 10 fold (!) difference in serum levels between some individual women!! Re gel absorption – this also depends on skin area and down to individual technique too because this same paper says that about 10 % of the dose is absorbed by the skin during the 2 min until it dries. I have the quotes and the paper ref if anyone wants them.

"Owing to the large individual differences in the resorption and metabolism, there are considerable interindividual variations in the course and height of the serum concentrations of sex steroids in women treated with the same preparation. The coefficients of variation are usually in the range between 30 and 60%. The interindividual variations are mainly due to genetic or acquired differences in the intestinal and hepatic metabolism,while the intraindividual variations from day to day may be caused by external factors like diet, alcohol or drug consumption, smoking, physical activity, stress, etc., which may cause rapid and transitory changes in peripheral or splanchnic blood flow, absorption or metabolism. Certain diseases, e.g. disorders of the thyroid gland, may also affect estrogen metabolism."

"Using patch or gel, there are large interindividual variations in the estradiol levels, which may differ by up to a factor of 10, and, in as much as 30% of the patients treated with a 50 mg patch, the estradiol concentrations are low. There are also considerable short-term intraindividual changes in the estradiol levels"

"The application of a hydro-alcoholic gel containing estradiol results in a rapid penetration of the estrogens into the stratum corneum; this stops after drying of the gel on the skin. As the absorption is proportional to the surface of application, deviations from the instructions may cause variations in the estrogen level and clinical efficacy. About 10% of the dose is absorbed by the skin during the 2 min until drying. The estradiol is stored in the stratum corneum and permeates through the epidermis into the dermal capillaries according to the concentration gradient between the stratum corneum and blood. This diffusion lasts for 2–14 h."

If you do not experience symptoms on the dose you are taking but these return when stopping or reducing then the oestrogen level is likely to be adequate for protection against osteoporosis I presume - without measuring levels. However if you are post-menopausal and symptoms do not return when you reduce oestrogen or stop, and you need to maintain oestrogen levels for osteoporosis protection - then this surely can only be ascertained through measuring blood serum levels when you take oestrogen - so that you know they adequate. Interesting Meeka because I would have assumed from the amount you are using that your levels would be much higher!

Don't forget girls that there is Sandrena gel if you are using oestrogel and not getting good levels.  Sandrena is more concentrated so more likely to get more oestrogen into your system from a given amount of gel! I think oestrogel is more popularly prescribed?

Hurdity x


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Niamh

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2017, 02:13:47 PM »

Yes Tempest - the inter-individual variation is enormous in how much women absorb estradiol from the different methods! In fact have just checked my go to source paper for all of this and this is the same for patches and tablets ie lack of consistency between individual women - and also depends on other external factors.

I hadn't come across the info about estradiol being “held” in the skin so that's interesting. This source paper I usually quote from about absorption and which I have posted about before, suggests up to a 10 fold (!) difference in serum levels between some individual women!! Re gel absorption – this also depends on skin area and down to individual technique too because this same paper says that about 10 % of the dose is absorbed by the skin during the 2 min until it dries. I have the quotes and the paper ref if anyone wants them.

"Owing to the large individual differences in the resorption and metabolism, there are considerable interindividual variations in the course and height of the serum concentrations of sex steroids in women treated with the same preparation. The coefficients of variation are usually in the range between 30 and 60%. The interindividual variations are mainly due to genetic or acquired differences in the intestinal and hepatic metabolism,while the intraindividual variations from day to day may be caused by external factors like diet, alcohol or drug consumption, smoking, physical activity, stress, etc., which may cause rapid and transitory changes in peripheral or splanchnic blood flow, absorption or metabolism. Certain diseases, e.g. disorders of the thyroid gland, may also affect estrogen metabolism."

"Using patch or gel, there are large interindividual variations in the estradiol levels, which may differ by up to a factor of 10, and, in as much as 30% of the patients treated with a 50 mg patch, the estradiol concentrations are low. There are also considerable short-term intraindividual changes in the estradiol levels"

"The application of a hydro-alcoholic gel containing estradiol results in a rapid penetration of the estrogens into the stratum corneum; this stops after drying of the gel on the skin. As the absorption is proportional to the surface of application, deviations from the instructions may cause variations in the estrogen level and clinical efficacy. About 10% of the dose is absorbed by the skin during the 2 min until drying. The estradiol is stored in the stratum corneum and permeates through the epidermis into the dermal capillaries according to the concentration gradient between the stratum corneum and blood. This diffusion lasts for 2–14 h."

If you do not experience symptoms on the dose you are taking but these return when stopping or reducing then the oestrogen level is likely to be adequate for protection against osteoporosis I presume - without measuring levels. However if you are post-menopausal and symptoms do not return when you reduce oestrogen or stop, and you need to maintain oestrogen levels for osteoporosis protection - then this surely can only be ascertained through measuring blood serum levels when you take oestrogen - so that you know they adequate. Interesting Meeka because I would have assumed from the amount you are using that your levels would be much higher!

Don't forget girls that there is Sandrena gel if you are using oestrogel and not getting good levels.  Sandrena is more concentrated so more likely to get more oestrogen into your system from a given amount of gel! I think oestrogel is more popularly prescribed?

Hurdity x

Hi Hurdity

Do you know much about the effect of progesterone on ostrogen levels? I ask as my blood tests were 668 in July when I saw Studd last and that's on 2 pumps but I was in a nice long stretch of ostrogen only as he'd let me skip a month owing to the severity of my progesterone intolerance. When I saw him last week I read 228 but I was 3 days post stopping my utro phase and feeling pretty grim. Nothing else has changed so do you think the progesterone was impacting my results?
Thanks
Niamh
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Noheroicsplease

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2017, 05:04:54 PM »

This makes for interesting reading.

Murphy, you mention absoprtion is 'better on arms than lower body which again is apparently less safe'

Is this the case? I put it on shoulders, upper arms. I think the consultant i saw visually showed me this when talking about the gel.

Is it less safe long term?
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Hurdity

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2017, 05:29:03 PM »

Niamh - the progesterone won't be having an effect - my understanding is that although in some parts of the body it can interfere with oestrogen (via receptors) - eg in the uterus, and also the nervous system and brain (so I've been reading recently), I don't think it has any effect on serum levels. If your cycle is now suppressed then those readings of nearly 700 on two pumps suggest that your cycle was not then suppressed but as you say, it is now. Although 218 is not very high it is adequate and if you are feeling fine then why increase? One reading is also not sufficient to say definitively that you remain at this level! If Studd has suggested an increase then maybe try a little extra? You don't want to experience a resurgence of symptoms which can sometimes happen with a sudden increase - tho' this could be temporary.

Hurdity x

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Niamh

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2017, 06:04:49 PM »

Niamh - the progesterone won't be having an effect - my understanding is that although in some parts of the body it can interfere with oestrogen (via receptors) - eg in the uterus, and also the nervous system and brain (so I've been reading recently), I don't think it has any effect on serum levels. If your cycle is now suppressed then those readings of nearly 700 on two pumps suggest that your cycle was not then suppressed but as you say, it is now. Although 218 is not very high it is adequate and if you are feeling fine then why increase? One reading is also not sufficient to say definitively that you remain at this level! If Studd has suggested an increase then maybe try a little extra? You don't want to experience a resurgence of symptoms which can sometimes happen with a sudden increase - tho' this could be temporary.

Hurdity x

Thank you that's very helpful. I have emailed Studd too. He asked me to increase to 3 pumps not because of the blood tests (didn't have the results then) just because I think that's what he likes to prescribe! I have no symptoms and my cycle is suppressed so no fluctuations so I don't want to increase really. When I've tried 3 before I've felt anxious and jittery, not slept well etc I'm a bit flat at the mo but I'm certain it's still the dreaded utro leaving my system X
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murphydurf

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2017, 06:17:54 PM »

Noheroicsplease - prof studd and my meno consultant at meno clinic told me I could apply the gel anywhere but I've read comments from ladies on this site who suggest that it's less safe on arms, shoulders etc. I'm more inclined to trust the professional opinion i.e. Studd and meno consultant but once you read these things it does make you wonder. If your consultant said it's ok with that application then keep going as prescribed.

Mx
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Frankie41

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Re: 3 pumps of oestrogel =128 pmol/L serum oestradiol level
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2017, 08:12:48 PM »

Hi Niamh,

I'm jumping in here as I picked up on certain similarities between your HRT regime and mine and also your physical stature :) Like you, I'm short and slim, also 42, and have my cycle suppressed as well as issues with progesterone.  I just wanted to say that although I can't explain it, like you, when ever I have been taking progesterone or my own cycle has "broken through" to some extent (so I've produced a bit of my own progesterone), my estradiol levels read low (180-210 pmol ish).   I've asked my endo about it and she has said the presence of progesterone per se should not affect our estrogen levels - but I wonder (just speculation really) that given our issues with not tolerating progesterone (and I still don't understand fully how this arises), when it enters our system it places a "stress" on our system (I know it, because my sympathetic nervous system goes into overdrive, heart palps, stomach knots etc) - and as we know, any prolonged experience of stress can deplete estradiol levels.    Just a theory, but perhaps plausible.  I always feel better if I have an explanation for things, so this is my working hypothesis :)

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