Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[honey1]

 
I am 69 years old and for more years than I can remember I have suffered with severe vaginal itching, dryness and burning.  I have seen several consultants and also made numerous visits to my GP and sometimes the diagnosis is  severe vaginal thrush, or an  allergic reaction to shower gels, soap powders, underwear etc etc. I recently saw a consultant in London and he has advised that my condition is not thrush but excessive good bacteria overgrowth  - lactobacillus.  I have been advised that douching with sodium bicarbonate twice weekly will reduce the acidity but it is not working.  I had a full hysterectomy when I was 48 and have been applying  Oestrogel  topically since then.  I am now at the end of my tether with this and I am desperate to try and find a solution to ease the discomfort.

[Taz2]

Hi honey1. So sorry to hear that you are going through this. It sounds a miserable condition. I first of all thought that maybe HRT would help you rather than just a topical oestrogen cream but I've had a search re lactobacillus overgrowth and found a condition I'd never heard of, Cytolytic Vaginosis, which I presume is what you are being treated for? It does seem that a course of two or three treatments might be necessary before you see results. One interesting thing I found on my meanderings around the internet is that all treatment and advice seem to be aimed at women who are still menstruating. I can find nothing on post menopausal women as it is considered a cyclical disorder which improves during your cycle.

You will find loads of support and help on here. If you prefer more privacy you can start a new thread under the Private Lives section which is only accessible to forum members.

Taz x 

[Dancinggirl]

Hi and welcome to MM honey1
Your story is really not unusual - Here on MM we believe there are probably a large percentage of post menopausal women who are suffering dreadfully from vaginal atrophy and too embarrassed to ask for help.
Though you are in your late 60s I would have thought local oestrogen would have been the obvious treatment as this will restore the natural balance in the whole vaginal area. Sadly there are few doctors, even specials tis, who understand this problem but do browse around MM as there are a number of threads covering this issue.  I started one some time ago called "The Burning Club".
My theory is this; once we become oestrogen deficient - and this can start in peri meno as our hormones decline - the vain gal area beceoms starved of oestrogen and the skin becomes fragile, we don't produce the nature lubrication so bacteria and thrush certainly can take hold more easily, however, I think there simply isn't the natural environment to prevent irritation.
There are a variety of measures you can try - it is trial and error - but here are my suggestions:
Cotton pants and looser clothing around the 'lady bits'.
Take showers, not baths. I really wouldn't douche - I think this is bound to make things worse.
Never wash with anything scented or even wash your hair in the shower, as shampoo will get to that area. Even intimate washes can be harsh and scented - I tend to use unscented vegetable soap but very carefully around the tops of my thighs and anal area, then use lots of water so I don't strip the skin of my vulva of any natural moisture. Some recommend emollient cream washes.
Avoid caffein, sugary drinks and anything acidic as I find this makes my urethra burn - so gives UTI type symptoms.
Do ask the GP for some local oestrogen as I think this will make a BIG difference for you - Vagifem is the easiest to use but you may like to try the creams - I personally find the cream irritate. It takes a few weeks to work it's magic and can cause a bit of irritation at first but is well worth trying.  This local oestrogen is not the same as systemic HRT as it is a very low dose that doesn't get absorbed systemically - many of us use Vagifem alongside Oestrogel and will be using this for the rest of our lives to prevent ongoing discomfort and also bladder problems.
I personally use vaginal moisturisers every day as well - I use Sylk and Multi Gyn Actigel but there are several on the market and, again, it is trial and error till you find one that you like and relieves the itching and soreness. Replens, Hyalofemme etc are good products as well. These moisturisers are designed to relieve itching and soreness, keep the flora balance and generally keep things healthy and comfortable.
I really sympathise - this discomfort is miserable. I hope my thoughts help.  Dg x

[Taz2]

I agree with you Dancinggirl but I think that honey1 has been using oestrogel? This condition is not the same as atrophy though - if it is the one I've found - apologies if it isn't   

This is a bit long but does explain the condition http://patient.info/forums/discuss/similar-to-thrush-like-symptoms-but-its-actually-cytolytic-vaginosis-cv--284656

I would have thought it would be worth trying a low dose HRT but maybe this would be considered too risky.

Taz x

[honey1]

Thanks everyone for your comments and help. The dose of Oestrogel I apply each morning is 0.75mg x 4 inside each  thigh area.  Can I assume Dancinggirl that the Vagifem you have suggested is only available on prescription?  Also the moisturisers that you suggest are they available "over the counter?"   I do shower every day and wash my hair in the shower as well so I've also taken your comments on board about that.  I have also been wearing as loose clothing as I possibly can and have spent a small fortune on cotton underwear and still can't seem to find any that are entirely comfortable - any suggestion there girls? Honey1x

[Jenna]

honey1 - I was diagnosed with this, although my real problem was soreness, not itching, and I was told to sit in baths with bi-carb. I did do this once (can't remember now why I didn't continue!).

Oh, this is such a long story, so I will try and just mention the relevant points! Basically I have had vaginal atrophy for many, many years and I had also been told this different way of presenting itself (severe soreness) was thrush (I am sure it wasn't), so I had been putting live yoghurt in my vagina, thinking that would solve the problem (it always used to in my younger days!), but I think it actually made matters worse and caused the lactobacillus overgrowth.

Anyway, I then saw a gynae who told me to use Estriol cream (available on prescription) every day for fourteen days and then twice a week after that, which I did and still do. I also use 'Yes' water-based vaginal moisturiser (also available on prescription) on the other days, and I use it both vaginally and all over the vulva (same as the Estriol cream, using what is left in the applicator for the underneath area) - in fact anywhere that hurts or itches and this has worked for me.

I really hope this information might help you in some way.

[CLKD]

My Grandma swore by Zinc and Caster oil and Bicarb of soda - particularly for burns.  She used to mix it with cold water into a paste and apply on burns.  They had very little in the way of cures except what had been passed down the generations 

Sitting in a bath may work if there is enough bicarb in the water  so maybe be in the bath with very little tepid water in: have the bicarb diluted in a jug and gently pour onto the affected area? 

How high up is the itching?  LIVE yoghurt worked for me but as you say, it is probably adding to the problem due to it being a similar bacteria?  You could ask a Pharmacist (who have private rooms now) for advice. 

As for comfy knickers, can't find many - except Supermarket brands .  Himself of course would tell me to go without    …… long skirt, no knicks allows air to circulate of course.  I use Ovestin1mg for atrophy which presents in a different way to 'thrush' symptoms.  If the outer lips are itchy I apply Savlon several times a day. 

[Dorothy]

Never wash with anything scented or even wash your hair in the shower, as shampoo will get to that area. Even intimate washes can be harsh and scented - I tend to use unscented vegetable soap but very carefully around the tops of my thighs and anal area, then use lots of water so I don't strip the skin of my vulva of any natural moisture.

I tried unscented vegetable soap which made me really uncomfortable, but I get on fine with Vagisil wash which I use anywhere which might get washed into that area.

[Taz2]

Hi Stellajane - I did think initially that oestrogen would cure the problem but having had a good look at all of the internet information it does seem that this is not an oestrogen-deficient problem. It's more to do with the bacteria within the vagina. The thing I find puzzling is that it seems to effect women who are still menstruating (cyclical) rather than post-meno and maybe now vaginal atrophy has become mixed up in the initial problem? Obviously at the age of 69 then the risks of prescribing full HRT have to be taken into account as at 70 years of age it is known that the risks outweigh the benefits.

Baking soda seems to be the usual treatment. Diagnosis is made by vaginal swab so I just thought that this was not vaginal atrophy and, as such, oestrogen wouldn't cure the main problem although it may make things more comfy?

Taz x

[Dancinggirl]

honey1 - gosh, you are on a very high dose of Oestrogel - I only use one pump per day and this keeps my flushes etc at bay and I'm really surprised you have such dryness and VA etc with such a high dose of systemic oestrogen daily!!!!! I still think Vagifem(yes, it is prescription only) should be tried and some vaginal moisturisers. Many doctor believe that systemic oestrogen is sufficient to prevent VA and soreness etc. but often the addition of local oestrogen can really make a difference.  I get my moisturisers online as I often can't get the ones I want at the chemist. Sylk or YES are really good to start out with but I find the Multi Gyn Actigel is the one that stops the itching and burning, although this does sting a bit when first applied and then has a really soothing effect.

Taz2 -honey1 has had a hyster so is only using oestrogen and I don't think there are the higher risks as with combined HRT.  I actually know a lady in her 80s who its still on HRT.  I do agree with you about the itchiness and soreness being caused by bacteria and I'm convinced this may well be what happens to me.  I do think one needs to make sure everything is really clean after opening the bowels, as transference of bacteria from the gut is so easy.  DG x

[Taz2]

I think it's a different kind of bacteria Dancinggirl http://reprosait4u.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/cytolytic-vaginosis.html  I must admit that I'd never heard of this condition but it does seem that honey1 has been given the appropriate treatment but it's not working although online comments have said that it takes two to three cycles of sessions to begin to see an improvement. The damage is often done, it seems, by the prescribing of anti-fungal medications which only worsens the problem.

I thought that research had indicated that continuing oestrogen only HRT after the age of 70 meant you are more susceptible to heart and stroke problems plus a higher incidence of colo-rectal cancer. Before the age of 60 the benefits outweigh the risk, from 60 to 70 they are equal and after 70 the risks outweigh the benefits. I think it was Hurdity who came up with the relevant information but I may be wrong. I find it all so confusing as to whether we can take it for life! 

Taz x 

 

[Cassie]

I agree with DG, 4 pumps is a huge amount of gel perhaps thats the issue, I get by on one and a bit pumps as well...I also think get a script for the vagifem and try that am sure it will help tremendously

[Dancinggirl]

I do think that by our 60s, if we still want to use HRT, then using the lowest amount of oestrogen possible is the best strategy. Any risks must be higher if using a high dose and provided the flushes etc ad mostly under control then that is the main thing. 
honey1 - have you tried reducing down to 2 pumps of Oestrogel per day? If you try reducing over 4-6 weeks you may be surprised how little you actually need?  DG x

[Dancinggirl]

Stellajane - I think you make a very good point.  The amount of oestrogen a women needs clearly varies considerably.
Though I am certainly much heavier than I was when I was dancing professionally, I am only 5'3" with slight bones and I also think my skin absorbs things very well - I get an oestrogen level of 475-600 on 2 pumps per day while others only get around 300!!.  There seem to be ladies who need a big amount of oestrogen to get symptom relief but one pump seems perfect for me - any more and I don't feel so good!!!!
We keep saying "it's trial and error" but as we progress through our late 50s into our 60s I do think it is wise to reduce to no more that 2 pumps of Oestrogel per day and possible very slowly reduce further over the years so that when we eventually stop the body can adjust more easily?
BTW- I've just done my first stint on Utro 200mg for 12 days and got a lightish bleed over 5 days - not too bad but quite a lot of nasty cramps so feeling very tired now.  I'll see how the next 3 month goes.  I haven't used any Vagifem for the last couple of weeks and my 'lady bits' haven't started to feel itchy, sore and burning so I'll see how that goes for a while before starting the Vagifem again.  I still use the Sylk and Multi Gyn though.  Dg x

[CLKD]

I have itching high up the day following treatment with Ovestin  .