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[Topsy]

Hi ladies

I'm fairly new on here and certainly new to all the peri symptoms. Well I thought I was but looking back it's been going on for ages now.  Not necessarily period issues but certainly awful moods, anxiety, aches and pains and feeling very down in the dumps.  I've been causing horrible arguments between hubby and me  and I didn't know what was going on with me, and it was only coming on here that it all started to make sense.

I had been spotting on and off for a month (from 28th August) and finally had a bit of a gushy period about a week ago.  It was definitely down to not ovulating, which I don't think I have been regularly for a long time - maybe every third month or so if I'm lucky (I'm 47).  But bleeds have been fairly regular, if a little closer together and lighter.  This last one was the heaviest for a very long time, but only lasted 3 days.

I have read Dr Lee's book on natural progesterone and was a little sceptical. But I got some anyway, just to try and see if I could regulate my bleeding a little.  I tried to work out day 10 to start, but it was pretty impossible with spotting on and off.  I got it wrong as my heavy bleed came about 3 days after starting the cream  but I carried on with a little bit every day (probably half the amount I should be using) until I've reached Day 5 and then I went for it with a full dose each day.  I know it's only been a short time that I've been on it, but I really can't believe how different I feel.

I know my progesterone has been blocked by cortisol or whatever happens as I do suffer anxiety, but looking back I think lack of progesterone has been the culprit of my anxiety!  I feel calmer, am a joy to live with (according to hubby) and the awful butterflies of anxiety in my tummy have gone.  I've also stopped spotting now (three days without - yay!!) so not sure if that's related.  Time will tell.

However, the huge change in me is my bladder!  For ages they have thought I've been suffering from interstitial cystitis which doesn't involve having any infection, just a bloody painful urinary system!  I was peeing every hour and could be up three to four times in the night.  Some days were OK, others were awful.  If I ever go to a concert or anything I have to book end of row seats!!

Sorry, this is going on a bit - I'll get to the point in a minute.  Anyway, over the past 3-4 days I've noticed I can go into town, get home, nip and sort the horses, come back and still not have have wanted a wee - and that's with drinking normally too.  I can go 4-5 hours and still not want to go that badly - that is completely unheard of for me.  I can't feel my bladder at all - everything seems very calm and painless.  I can't tell you what a difference that makes to me and my life.  It has been a standing joke in the family for ages!!  Yesterday I went out with my friend for the afternoon and didn't go at all and even when I got home I still wasn't that bothered.

So I suddenly started to put two and two together and googled it (as you do) - "irritable bladder and low progesterone".  On www.womensinternational.com it says "Another hormone imbalance that may be a contributing factor in bladder problems involves adrenalin and its natural counterblance progesterone.  An excess of adrenalin may trigger contractions in the bladder muscles, which in turn causes a rise in lactic acid, leading to the pain associated with interstitial cystitis.  Some practitioners think it may also be caused by too much adrenaline and that it may be the culprit in overactive bladder too.  Progesterone cream applied at bedtime may help reduce the need to urinate and allow for much better sleep."

I'm do have a very stressful job and lots going on at home, so I've been having adrenalin overload for ages now.   I'm certain this has contributed to my peri symptoms or peri may have not helped my stress levels - chicken and egg!!!

But that has described what's happened to me exactly.  It's far too much of a co-incidence not to be as I've been suffering for about 3 years. 

Time will tell of course, but I think I may have found something to help and I wonder if it might help others.  Just sharing my experience and not trying to preach!   

[honeybun]

It's great that this is working for you Topsy.

Natural progesterone has cause heated discussions on the forum so be prepared for the posts that may well come.

For me....it it works for you then great and long may it continue.

Keep posting and please let us know how things progress for you.


Honeyb
x

[minkusmum]

Sorry to be negative, but I thought I should tell you that I too tries natural progesterone about 3 years ago after reading something by Dr Lee. It did indeed work at first for me,  less hot flushes in particular, but then I started to feel permanently hungry. I was eating the equivalent of an extra small meal before bed and still getting up in the night before bed for a glass of milk because I was so hungry. I knew I was soon going to get fat if I carried on like that so I did a Google search. Lo and behold, progesterone can affect appetite so I stopped the cream straightaway. The flushes were just bearable, and now I am a convert to patches, which help with my MS. I might never have found that out if the cream carried on helping. As people often say on here, we're all different. 

[Topsy]

It's lovely to hear everyone's experience. It might depend on the stage you're at?  I'm very early on with no hot flushes, dryness or anything. Just suffering from erratic ovulation which may or may not be down to cronic stress or peri or both!!  So maybe it's more effective at certain stages?  Who knows. But I cannot believe my bladder  and how lovely it feels. That's something no placebo effect could have caused.

[Suzyq]

Early in peri it worked really well for me for over a year. Now I still use everyday as couldn't get on with just estrogen - literally felt like I was dying! Everybody is different and if you have a progesterone deficiency, it can be really bad in terms of symptoms! Good for you ...

[Topsy]

That's great to hear!  I've found doing all this hormone research really eye opening. Sincerely wish I had realised a long time ago what was going on but age has just crept up on me.  It's amazing how all these hormones interact and now easy to understand how cronic stress can exacerbate everything. I've realised the whole life balance being looked at and modified if necessary and possible, is as important as anything in trying to make us feel better at this time of life. No one thing in isolation is a miracle cure but I hope the cream will play an important part at least for a good while.  So far so good......

[Rowan]

Natural progesterone cream works for me too, it certainly calms and helps with anxiety. I only use an eight of a teaspoon about 15-20 mgs, nowhere near the amount used in HRT, its only then you get the side effects that a lot of women can't tolerate.

The fact is that a lot of women use it but tend to keep quiet about for fear of out cry from other women. Dr John Lee wrote a few books including a text book they are all very informative. He learned about  progesterone cream from Dr Ray Peat, who discovered that women were using it in very small amounts in a facecream many many years ago.

Dr Lee preferred to call it progesterone cream not natural progesterone cream as it contains USP progesterone not wild yam, though it is synthesised from either Soy or Mexican wild Yam which is a plant not Yams ( similar to sweet potato)

Here are some articles that some will find very interesting 

 http://raypeat.com/articles/

http://www.antiaging.com/cyberhealth/index.html

I am never without  a pot of natural progesterone cream.

If you are on conventional HRT and still have a womb then it is not advised to use the cream to counter high amounts of estrogen.

[Topsy]

Thank you for posting - I'm so pleased I'm working along the right lines and I'll read the articles.  I don't think I've got enormous amounts of oestrogen.  I'm quite skinny and have had lightish bleeding for a year or so now, but I don't think I had much, if any reserves, of progesterone, especially as it was being countered so much by high stress, so I was still probably oestrogen dominant which was causing all the horrible symptoms. 

I was going to go for hormone testing, but decided to try this first. I'm finding I'm dealing with the little things that go wrong in the day much much more easily now and not making mountains out of molehills!  Hubby has noticed a marked difference as he's not getting told of half as much anymore  .  I've got so much more energy and feel a little bit like my old self again.  I thought she'd gone for good!! 

I'm taking the Biovea one which delivers one pump of 20mg a day.  I put it on half and half - once morning and once evening.

[Hurdity]

Hi Topsy

It is normal to be "oestrogen dominant" (I don't find his terminology helpful) during peri-menopause because as you have yourself found - this is the time when the ovaries begin to pack up and therefore cycles become anovulatory. Of course then progesterone is not produced because there is no egg released and no corpus luteum, and then this gives rise to heavy and erratic periods because the womb lining continues to build up from oestrogen, unopposed by progesterone.

Progesterone cream does not contain sufficient progesterone to regulate your bleeding in this way, in the same way as silverlady has said it will not protect the womb as part of HRT, despite what you may have read.

Great that you are feeling better and always good to read as much as you can of the best information.

However during peri-menopause (when most women start to use products like Black Cohosh, progesterone cream and a myriad of other products on the market), hormone levels fluctuate from day to day, month to month, and periods may well stop and start for months at a time as a result. Along with this symptoms also change, so it is impossilbe to definitely attribute any improvement you are feeling to a product you are taking.

This happened to me with Black Cohosh (as an example). I would have raved about it to anyone because it "stopped" my hot flushes, but of course this was down to my own hormones because eventually it stopped working, I chucked them in the bin and replaced my deficient oestrogen with HRT.

Along with the relative excess of oestrogen over progesterone which can occur during peri-menopause - ie during anovulatory cycles, the absolute level of oestrogen also falls to the point where oestrogen deficiency symptoms manifest themselves - hot flushes, sweats, bladder problems, vaginal atrophy, as well as possible other long term health problems such as osteoporosis or heart problems.

I haven't got the information to hand but a lot of Dr Lee's work has been discredited - and he is American where all of this sort of thing tends to arise due to their different healthcare system (he also I understand started the sale of "natural progesterone" so is a commercial undertaking) and you will be aware that none of the menopause societies nor the worldwide scientific community subscribe to his views - there is simply insufficient evidence from properly controlled trials for a case to be made.

Do read up all the information freely available on this site, and on the websites British, North American and International Menopause Societies for the latest scientific thinking, hopefully unfettered by commerical concerns.

Hurdity x

[Machair]

Hi Topsy,

 Well done for being pro-active and trying to look for solutions. I know you may have postings that discourage you but try to stay level headed.

Prolonged spotting is very common in perimenopause. If you join Webmd menopause forum and ask questions, a very respected gynae will answer them- Mrs Jane Minkin who has an excellent book on the perimenopause available from Amazon.

I did this regarding my prolonged spotting and the advice I received was that it is most likely due to progesterone shortage, and that after the required tests to make absolutely sure that nothing abnormal was causing this then a course of progesterone orally would be possible.In other words a scan and or a biopsy.

I have not had scans and tests yet which is why I have not gone down any route to try things myself. My spotting takes the form of brown/yellow small amounts before I bleed for many days together with PMT - this follows clear signs of high oestrogen with stretchy vaginal mucus that can be stretched to over 4cm.

Furthermore advice on the CEMCOR website states that this problem can be treated with progesterone orally for 6 months before the need to have a scan or a biopsy of the uterus. This is a website that is highly respected.

I am watching and waiting to see what happens - I am always aware that spotting can be a symptom of cancer and so have a very close eye on things. The problem is my friend had this very issue and after being told she was short of progesterone she had the Mirena coil fitted, and as this didn't stop the bleeding she was put on the pill. She then developed breast cancer.She will never know if the spotting was a symptom of hormonal imbalance that predisposed her to breast cancer, or if it was the medical well meaning intervention she so sought that was the culprit.

We are all individuals so I applaud your research and I hope you continue to do well. I may be heading for a scan soon if things don't settle just to reassure myself. My main issue as I say is periods that take for ever to actually start and are proceeded by brown and yellow spotting. Even when the red blood starts it can take days to get established. Anyone else?

[roisen]

My main issue as I say is periods that take for ever to actually start and are proceeded by brown and yellow spotting. Even when the red blood starts it can take days to get established. Anyone else?

I have brown staining three to five days before my Femosten 2/10 breakthrough bleed. It is enough to use pads and would seem like the start of the period except it is too early for the breakthrough. Then cramps start proper and heavy bleed. I have this every month now. It's annoying. I wipe myself days or a week before period and there is the brown stuff. I feel very PMT'sh and have mild cramps.
I'm due a hysteroscopy after scan showed thickened womb lining and fibroids. Is this similar to your experience? x

[honeybun]

Topsy has left the forum which is such a shame so she will not be able to answer your question.

I do hope that newish members are able to post their experiences freely knowing that we will be interested and most of all supportive.


Honeyb
x

[Rowan]

It is such a shame that another member has felt the need to leave, maybe some on the forum are not as supported of different views and experiences and what works for other women, as they should be.

Topsy if you are still looking in on MM don't be discouraged and have a look at this link

http://chronicdiseaseprevention29.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/they-told-me-hes-quack.html

[Rowan]

Just to add I have the greatest respect for Dr John Lee's lifetime work, maybe if people who deride him took the time to read his books especially

"Natural Progesterone: The Multiple Roles of a Remarkable Hormone" which is technical but very easy to read and can be applied to men as well as women, they might

think differently!

"This is a very clear and easy to read book. I would urge any woman having PMS, pre-menopause or post-menopausal symptons to read it, as should anyone taking HRT. I have been suffering with many of the symptons of progesterone deficiency (or oestrogen excess) for some time, without knowing it. No orthodox medical doctor could explain why I had these symptons. It gives clear advice on what these symptons are and many resources at the back of the book for dealing with them. I would also urge any woman with an underactive thyroid to read it too. There is a very useful chapter on men and prostate problems. If I could I would give this to every woman I know to read"

"This is the Health Professional's version of Dr Lee's book "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause". Just like the referred to book, it's a real eye opener about how our hormones really function despite what we've been told and , yes even taught, in school. A must read for every OB/ GYN Doc and nurse and for Family Practice Pros, too. You can really help your patients enjoy good health and avoid years of agony just by knowing and applying this simple OTC method. I highly recommend "

[BrightLight]

I find this thread really interesting - even without reference to concrete research/trials I can see the role of progesterone in the cascade of problems that high cortisol (stress) can create in the cycle and personally if I had known this before I would have tried it.  Looking back I am certain that I was not ovulating on a regular basis in the past year or so and yes, that happens in peri-menopause. 

The adrenal glands make cortisol from progesterone, thus depleting it. When you create an imbalance of high estrogen and low progesterone for long enough, this can result in estrogen falling as Hurdity describes and then voila the system falls down.

This problem could explain insomnia and night sweats - having high cortisol means it won't lower at night when it should, resulting in the expression of estrogen excess symptoms like hot flashes (temperature contol).

Basically if my stress had been taken into account earlier and the likelihood progesterone was low, perhaps I could have used hormone replacement to supplement this situation at the same time as supporting the adrenals and reducing cortisol and bringing the cycle into balance.  Stopping the progesterone and ending a horrible cycle of misfiring hormones

Also there is also the scenario I suppose of supplementing with full HRT at the 'end point' of this cascade when in fact the woman is still estrogen excess - someone that doesn't have estrogen deficient symptoms but has stopped cycling.

I probably havent used the right terminology or correct science but this protocol could really help younger women and people like me that are having early menopause - perhaps it could have been corrected at an earlier point.  I think it takes extreme stress to stop periods and I am not certain that this has been my problem per se, but high cortisol levels have been present in my life recently and getting older the lack of progesterone might have just tipped the balance into deficit in all areas.  I have had signs of excess estrogen all my life - I didn't know it at the time, but I do know and all of these hormonal imbalances effect osteoparosis and heart disease way before menopause - so why not catch things early if you can

Preventative medicine is my preferred area and there is definately more uses for HRT throughout a womans life than is currently commonplace.