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[Meeka]

Thank you to Dancinggirl for your reply to my "how to apply Estrogel" question. Apologies for not replying sooner, I haven't logged in for a wee while.

Just to update, my oestrogen levels were about 250-260 at one month after using Estrogel at 2x pumps per day so I seem to be absorbing it OK.

The downside is that my vitamin D levels were at a shockingly low 24; deficiency is less than 30 using the units that my hospital lab uses, I know there is another unit of measurement, but this was my result in "new money" (for those of us old enough to remember "old money" lol).  But I was pretty shocked at this as my previous measurements were in the optimal range and as I have been prescribed HRT for osteoporosis it's not good news. I have been taking 800 IU daily as advised by my menopause consultant for the past 3-4 weeks but the doc I saw today for gastro probs suggested a high dose on prescription.

Just out of interest, I went to pick up my prescription today and was given "OEstrodose" instead of Estrogel. It's identical in composition and made by Besins, the same manufacturer as Estrogel. It's in a different shaped container, still with a pump and the same dosage, and the text on the outside is all in French with an English label stuck on. At first I wasn't sure about it, but none of the local pharmacies have the Estrogel UK brand, just this French/Euro OEstrodose, so I didn't have a choice.

I had low vit D and had to take 3000 iu until it was back in the range.  Some Docs recommend always taking 2000 iu a day to keep it at optimum level.

[Keepgoing]

Hi stellajane I noticed it more when showering lots of it came out and it's all over my head really.  The hair under my arms and on my legs isn't growing as fast either.  I had my thyroid checked in October before trying hrt and never noticed any hair loss before this, I have really lost quite a lot so think I will get it checked out. Thanks for your reply xx

[Lil Lynn]

Hi Keepgoing

I've just joined the forum and posted about Androgenic hair loss tonight but under general health issues. I was started on Utrogestan 2 months ago and am experiencing hair loss on it. I'm also on Estradot patch 25mcg. I am convinced it is the Utrogestan that is causing it. I'm due to see a dermatologist/hair specialist in a week or so and will ask him if he can find any research on it and will post after I've seen him. I'm experiencing lots of hair shedding in the shower and despite already having female pattern hair loss this is much more than before.

I'm not saying you could have the same hair loss condition but I do think there is an issue for some women on Utrogestan, after blood tests to check hormone levels I'm pretty sure I will be coming off this asap. I was on Provera before but stopped due to joint pain but I would rather ache than lose more hair.

Hope this helps x

[Keepgoing]

Hi lil I'm not sure it's the utro I'm thinking its maybe the estrogel as it says it can cause hair thinning, and apart from this I seem to be fine on this regime. Will be a shame if it is this as I really can't abide trying another one xx

[Lil Lynn]

Hi Keepgoing

I don't know anything about Estrogel but as far as I am aware Oestrogen is the element that is supposed to be beneficial for hair. The progesterone is required to protect the womb etc. the Utro also lists hair loss as a possible side effect so I thought it would be it that must be causing the problem but I honestly do not know for certain.

I see the hair doc in just over a week so I will ask him what his opinion is on this and let you know what he says about the Estradot patch I'm on and it might give you an idea if it is similar to your Estrogel xx

[Mary G]

Lil L, how much Utrogestan are you taking?  If I take too much progesterone of any type, I don't only get migraines but also lose more hair.  I have very long dark hair so it is very easy to see when it falls out and I know this is a bit sad but I started counting them and I was losing up to 150 hairs everyday at one point.  Then it suddenly slowed and went back to normal but my hair took on a spurt and grew quite fast and people started to comment on how long it had got (nearly waist length).

Looking back, I now think it was all part of the hair growth cycle readjusting and the problem (in my case anyway) was caused by taking too much progesterone.  Just like practically every other bodily function known to wo/man, I think it is all about getting your HRT dose right. 

I hope that helps.

[Lil Lynn]

Hi Mary G

That does help, thanks. The more I read on the net I was finding Utrogestan is the preferred progesterone so it is good to know others are experiencing hair loss with it too and that I'm not imagining it.

I'm taking 100mg daily for the full month no breaks and I'm on Estradot patch 25mcg.

How much do you take yourself?

I''m hoping the oestrogen is going to be increased could it sound like the hrt balance just isn't right?

[Mary G]

Lil L, so you are on a continuous combined regime.  My opinion is that you are taking too much Utrogestan and not enough oestrogen and this could be your problem.  If you like the patches and get on well with them then why not up the dose to either 50mcg or 75mcg and see if that makes a difference?  For a start, I think you would feel better in yourself for having more oestrogen and it may well bring you hair loss into the normal range.  If you have plenty of 25mcg patches at home, why not bung on an extra one and see how you feel?

The problem with the ratio you are currently taking is the Utrogestan is probably too dominant and cancelling out many of the benefits of the oestrogen.  I had no traction whatsoever when I was on the 25mcg patch with the Mirena coil although I didn't experience any hair loss but, as always, we all experience different side effects with different types of HRT. 

I am on the Professor Studd regime of 2 pumps of Oestrogel everyday (reduced down from 3 pumps) with 100mg of Utrogestan (vaginally) for 7 days plus a small bead of testosterone.  Unlike your regime, I get periods but it is a small price to pay for feeling better overall. 

[Lil Lynn]

Thanks Mary G, I started my post about androgenic hair loss and hrt under other health issues and my story is a long one but I'm only on hrt for my hair, I'm having blood tests next week before I see the hrt Doctor so she can decide if she is willing to increase the patch dose. I really hope so.

Do you only take Utro 7 days each month? Ive just googled Prof Studd and can see he is based in Wimpole Street, London. This could be very useful, the hair doc Im going to see for a second time is Dr David Fenton he is based nearby on Harley Street so I'm sure he will be aware of your doctor and might be able to get further opinion for me.

[Lil Lynn]

Yes thanks I'm due the blood test next week and as much as I would like to try more of the patch I'm going to have to be patient until I'm on the bp meds I'm seeing all 3 docs within the next 2 weeks so not long to wait thankfully

[Mary G]

I'm sure your doctor will have heard of Professor Studd and as you say, he is in the next street and if you can afford it, he is well worth a visit.  The 100mg Utrogestan (vaginally) for 7 days each month is his standard prescription for women like myself who are progesterone intolerant and it works well.  I have had womb scans that confirm I can safely take this amount. 

Depending on what your doctors say, it might be worth changing to something similar.  You may be interested to know that the more oestrogen I take, the better my thyroid function, cholesterol levels and blood pressure readings - I don't actually have a problem with any of them but they do function better with more oestrogen.  I know it might not be the same for everyone but nonetheless, it is worth bearing in mind and you could even mention it to your doctor.

By the way, I do have a question, suppose it's the Utrogestan that is causing the high blood pressure?  It is not synthetic but it is still not the same as the stuff you produce yourself.  I was wondering why your doctor is happy for you to carry on taking it everyday but questions the oestrogen?

[Lil Lynn]

Hi Mary G

I will ask her that as I have no idea if progesterone causes a risk with high bp, I think I only remember her saying the Oestrogen causes a risk.

That is very interesting that your Oestrogen helps everything I will ask hair doc if it could help hair.

To be honest the hair doctor alone is enough expense how often do you need womb scans on your regime? I've only had one were they flushed water in and that wasn't very pleasant but needs must.

[Lil Lynn]

I forgot to say I had the high blood pressure before starting the hrt so that is why the Oestrogen was prescribed at a low dosage, I think I remember hrt doc saying that hrt and high bp don't go well together but nothing very specific.

Sorry for so many questions but how did you know you are progesterone intolerant?

I never thought hrt could be so complicated.

[Mary G]

Lil L, no need to apologise for questions!

I put this link on another thread which you might find interesting:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3106691/You-HRT-menopausal-women-high-blood-pressure-doctors-told.html

This whole BP thing and oestrogen is a bit chicken and egg in my opinion because low oestrogen can cause high blood pressure and my mother and aunt both developed high blood pressure post menopause.  The fact that you had high blood pressure before you started HRT could be a factor here and I just wonder if the high level of Utrogestan you take is lessening the good effects of the oestrogen?  Are you taking it orally because that does cause more systemic symptoms. 

I know what you mean about all these medical consultations, it can end up costing you an arm and a leg.  I have never heard of that type of uterine scan that you had.  I have an internal ultrasound once or sometimes twice a year and it measures the uterine lining, checks the ovaries, measures the vaginal wall and checks the bladder and the gynaecologist insists on doing it herself, she likes to actually see what is going on first hand.  I have the scans on my private health insurance but Professor Studd did not make uterine scans a condition of using his regime. 

Re my progesterone intolerance, I am not intolerant to my own progesterone, just the synthetic variety and large doses of Utrogestan.  I only had a problem once I stopped producing enough of my own hormones and the symptoms for me are silent migraines which consist of migraine aura without headache. 

I took the pill for years and had two Mirena coils and although I didn't have migraines while reproductive, I never felt good on either so to be fair, I had exactly the same challenges with birth control as I do with HRT.  That said, now that I have my HRT sorted, I can honestly say that I feel better now than I did years ago while battling with birth control (I never found any form of birth control that suited me) but it's taken me a long time to finally get there!

[Hurdity]

Hi Lil L

From what I've read - of course for your general health it's good to sort out your blood pressure - and I presume you have looked at and are trying all the various natural ways to do this? ie Lose weight if necessary, take more exercise, cut down/out salt, reduce alcohol, stop smoking, eat healthy diet - lots of fruit and veg, and not too much saturated fat or rather high fat fast foods and similar. You've probably done all this!

You might be interested in Taz's thread about blood pressure where there are link to various BP sites:
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31667.0.html

Transdermal HRT ( patch or gel) is supposed to be less risky than tablet HRT if you have raised blood pressure.

I agree with Mary G and others who say your oestrogen is very low - and I agree that your hair loss may well be due to low oestrogen generally rather than the utrogestan, which is the least androgenic of the progestogens. Hair loss happens as part of the menopause, and due to decreasing oestrogen and the relative increase in the ratio of testosterone to oestrogen, even though testosterone itself is also decreasing (oestrogen decreases faster).

If you are under a specialist for your hair then I presume you have had already had blood tests for thyroid function although you would probably have noticed other symptoms of thyroid deficiency if this were the case?

Just also to clarify that the oestrogen that Mary G uses (oestrogel) contains exactly the same oestrogen as you have in your patch (as do I - which is estradiol - which is bio-identical to the one in our bodies - so no worries on that score. You are fine with your patch - but just need to increase the dose.

You haven't mentioned how old you are and where in menopause (ie periods etc) before starting the HRT?

Finally there is no need to consult a private specialist at great expense to alter your HRT dose. You just need to gain agreement to increase your oestrogen dose (hopefully while reducing your BP too). As Mary G says if you don't mind a bleed you could always go onto a cycle but the licensed dose of progesterone for cyclical HRT is 200 mg per day for 12 days per 28. On low doses of oestrogen with your doc's permission (or depending on how got on) you could vary this under supervision. However if you are happy on the 100 mg and the Utro is not causing your hair loss I would increase the patch dose and stay with the Utro. Just be aware (depending on where you are in menopause) that if you increase the oestrogen there may be some erratic bleeding or spotting at least initially, and depending how well you absorb the progesterone!

Hope this helps

Hurdity x