Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Dandelion on August 21, 2020, 01:00:20 PM
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I posted about this here, it went away but it's back again.
I don't want to go to my GP
HAd hystersocopy in 2019, decreased oestrogen twice, increased utro
Nothing working
Is it risky if I just carry on with out changing my hrt regime without telling GP
I can't change progestin as I am addicted to valium and they are cross-tolerant so it would completely mess me up.
I just want to see a clear pad. I don't mind yellow or light brown discharge, I just don't want to be seeing other colours. They go, but thy return.
I get tender breasts and a painful period every few months
I am 54 in a few weeks so I cant still be cycling.
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Dandelion - when in 2019 did you have your hysterosocopy and what did they find? What was the thickness of your lining and were there any polyps or fibroids that could have caused the bleeding? Did they suggest an explanation if not or what to do about it?
You could still be cycling at age 54 - there are plenty of women who have a late menopause. It depends what your periods were doing before you started HRT ie whether you were missing cycles or going a long time in between periods, and how long ago this was. Is there a pattern to the spotting and bleeding? Keep a diary and make a note of the tender breasts and the period you are getting - when it happens and how often and whether the postting or bleeding stops in between.
You need to know the answers these questions before deciding what to do.
Do try not to worry and hope this helps.
Hurdity x
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Dandelion - when in 2019 did you have your hysterosocopy and what did they find? What was the thickness of your lining and were there any polyps or fibroids that could have caused the bleeding? Did they suggest an explanation if not or what to do about it?
You could still be cycling at age 54 - there are plenty of women who have a late menopause. It depends what your periods were doing before you started HRT ie whether you were missing cycles or going a long time in between periods, and how long ago this was. Is there a pattern to the spotting and bleeding? Keep a diary and make a note of the tender breasts and the period you are getting - when it happens and how often and whether the postting or bleeding stops in between.
You need to know the answers these questions before deciding what to do.
Do try not to worry and hope this helps.
Hurdity x
Hi @Hurdity
I had my hysteroscopy in January 2019.
The hysteroscopy found nothing.
The transvaginal ultrasound before it found a slightly thickened womb lining, 5 0r 5.5 mm as far as I can remember.
No polyps or fibroids.
As for suggestions or explanations, I informed the gynaecologist of my valium situation and an extra vaginal 100mg utro was added to the oral 100mg utro.
He did say to me that if the bleeding persists, I could be back and forth to him.
He said I had a stenosed cervix, it was so closed it wouldn't even let him in with a thin straw like implement to do a biopsy while awake.
I can't really remember my periods before hrt, some were really heavy, late, early but not painful.
I didn't go an especially long time between periods.
I don't know for how long the periods were irregular, I remember in my late thirties having a really heavy one at work. I think I was 36 roughly.
I "think" my periods were normal until early forties, which is when I started perimenopause. Thats when I started getting sweats and flushes at age 42 and "wonky periods"
I do keep a diary, there is no pattern to the spotting or bleeding. I had a massive period in November (I think) and march with great pain and clots, and the recent one in August with pain and clots but not so bad as the others. I get days with watery pink, one recently with red on the tissue at wiping, but mostly brown/yellow. Sometimes dark brown. The vast majority of the time its small amounts of brown, today so far there is a small amount of yellow.
There is mostly something like spotting or brown every day, but I go get the odd day or two with nothing, or just yellow.
I'm worried as I do not really know the answers to the questions except the ones in the diary, I would say I get brown most days, yellow next in order, terracotta, pink watery, and if I am lucky just yellow or occasionally none at all. The tender breasts are random so I can't really check them for lumps.
Do you think there could be a chance, given this information that I could have cancer?
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Update, nothing but a tiny bit of yellow yesterday.
Today, small amount of brown on pad and small amount of reddish brown on tissue when wiping.
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Today's update
Sorry for graphic description, stringy little brown/red clot on tissue first thing.
Mild pelvic pain
Second visit to loo, looks like I am having a full blown period red blood on tissue, not flooding large amount though.
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Was hoping this nonsense would go away, as I can't change regimen due to info earlier on thread.
28th August - Teaspoon of mid brown discharge on pad (pads should be a thing of the past for a woman like me, nearly 54 years old.
29th August - Mild pelvic pain for short while, less brown discharge then yesterday
30th August - Mild pelvic pain. Went to loo to urinate, water in bowl red, wiped, proper red on tissue like a young woman's period. Shouldn't be needing pads, at my age, but would go through a lot of knickers if I didnt.
Hope @Hurdity sees this post and my answers to her questions on my post of 25 August
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Hi Hurdity hasn’t been on here for about a week. She may be on holiday. I’m sure she’ll be along soon x
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Hi Hurdity hasn’t been on here for about a week. She may be on holiday. I’m sure she’ll be along soon x
Hi Dotty
I just want it to stop.
I never mentioned in 2019 in the reansvaginal ultrasound scan that they couldn't find my ovary. This last spate when I have had pelvic pain I have had pain in my left ovary area.
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Been losing black clots today, no wonder I was having pelvic pain.
Had a bit of pelvic pain today, seems to have gone now.
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Pelvic pain seems to come in the afternoon.
Watery pink and black clots on pad, dark brown stale blood on tissue.
Wonder why I am passing clots, why does the blood wait in my womb and congeal, shouldn't even be there at my age?
Why is blood happening at all, womb was only 5mm in Jan 2019, had hrt adjustments, nothing working, just when I think it has stopped, back it comes.
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Dandelion.... could it be that you are not post menopause? Did you go 12 months without a period before you started on the continuous Utrogestan ? If you are still in peri menopause, this could be the reason fo4 your bleeding.
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Dandelion.... could it be that you are not post menopause? Did you go 12 months without a period before you started on the continuous Utrogestan ? If you are still in peri menopause, this could be the reason fo4 your bleeding.
I'm 54 next week so post meno, been on hrt since 2013 so always had periods.
Evorel100mcg patch and 200mg utro 12 days a month
I got addicted to valium in 2016 while still peri, and went nuts on the days I wasn't taking progesterone as it's cross tolerant with valium, so I started taking 100mg utro every day which stopped me going nuts as it balanced my GABA receptors (metabolite of progesterone is cross-tolerant to valium in the same way morphine is cross tolerant with heroin)
So, I had regular periods till June 2018 when spotting started
Had hysteroscopy and added vaginal 100mg utro which stopped bleeding
It started again in June 2019 so GP reduced patch to 75mcg which stopped bleeding
It started again in November intermittently and had massive clots especially in march.
Had spotting since then but red blood and clots on and off for about the last month now.
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Please also see my post above.
Today
Black clots on pad.
Slight pelvic pain just arrived, been getting worse in afternoon hope it doesn't today.
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Hi Dandelion, gosh you've been through a lot of cr@p. Poor thing.
I suppose you can't say you're post menopause if you had been on HRT since 2013? Some women still have ovarian function at this point, so maybe your ovaries are having a last spell of activity?
What does your consultant say?
Hope it stops soon 🤞🏻
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Hi Dandelion, gosh you've been through a lot of cr@p. Poor thing.
I suppose you can't say you're post menopause if you had been on HRT since 2013? Some women still have ovarian function at this point, so maybe your ovaries are having a last spell of activity?
What does your consultant say?
Hope it stops soon 🤞🏻
I haven't been to see the GP since June 2019.
I cannot have my progesterone regime changed due to the cross tolerance with valium, as any alteration in that will have disastrous side effects.
I started taking ashwaganhda a few weeks ago to BALANCE my hormones, but I dunno if it's making it worse.
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Nowhere near as much pelvic pain today.
Clots still coming out but not as much.
Notice red blood in the toilet though and on my pad.
I wonder why the blood congeals to form clots?
In 2019 I found I had a stenosed cervix, hope blood hasn't been hiding up there since the last big bleed in March.
What I've noticed with this last few weeks of pelvic pain is I get it in the left side some days, one day it was really sharp.
When I had my trans vaginal ultrasound in 2019 they had a job finding my ovary.
I did Dr Google and found endometriosis, hope I don't have that.
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Don't trust Dr Google, all sorts of rubbish can come up after a search. Ovaries are hardly seen in ultrasound scans after menopause. When are you due to see your GP again?
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Don't trust Dr Google, all sorts of rubbish can come up after a search. Ovaries are hardly seen in ultrasound scans after menopause. When are you due to see your GP again?
That's just it, I haven't seen the GP in over a year. I have enough stress in my life non medical without this stuff going on. I can't have my progesterone regimen changed as it's metabolites are cross-tolerant with the valium I am addicted to - meaning if they change it, I will go into a nasty withdrawal situation which may incapacitate me.
I just want it to stop and not come back.
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I understand you are afraid that your GP might change your regime, take you off Utrogestan, but this is not going to happen if you explain the cross tolerance issue. You should see your GP or ask to be referred to another doctor if s/he doesn't understand that. What you can't do is avoiding getting help when you're clearly under stress.
Wishing you well.
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I understand you are afraid that your GP might change your regime, take you off Utrogestan, but this is not going to happen if you explain the cross tolerance issue. You should see your GP or ask to be referred to another doctor if s/he doesn't understand that. What you can't do is avoiding getting help when you're clearly under stress.
Wishing you well.
Thanks I know I should go back.
The bleeding and pelvic pain have reduced today, but in march I had the same thing and it came back so what's to say it wont come back agiain even if it goes away for a bit.
I just have so many non medical stressors on at the moment, I keep putting it off.
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I had an afterthought last night about my post above.
There is one GP I know of in our surgery who told me she wanted to stop hrt after five years, at the time I hadn't been on it.
You don't get the choice of what GP to see, if I get her, she will just want to stop it, having been on it more than 5 years.
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Up to date guidance is that you can stay on hrt for as long as you need it. It is not necessary to stop after 5 years. X
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Up to date guidance is that you can stay on hrt for as long as you need it. It is not necessary to stop after 5 years. X
Yeah Dr Currie says that, it seems to be getting better, but it could come back, like it did after 5 months with discharge in between.
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Seemed to be improving, got a brown small clot.
Then this evening a teaspoon full of bright red blood.
Does the bleeding mean my womb lining is now getting to the right thickness?
I applied my gel tonight, it's got another couple of days worth of pumps in it, judging by the canister.
The pumps that came out tonight were not as much as they are normally, so I got less oestrogen which is no biggie, however is the discharge improves or stops, that would indicate it's hormonal, so I wonder whether I should reduce down to 25mcg oestrogen, something to think about.
I did notice sweats when down to 50mcg but only in the summer, got sweat rash, even with fan on yet I was still discharging, which doesn't seem to make sense as you'd expect no discharge on reducing oestrogen, yet if body really did need less why the sweats?
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I can't help you with doses, but I suppose you will have breakthrough bleeding when you change them? Stable hormone levels are important to keep the endometrium from shedding, unless you're on a sequential regime.
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I can't help you with doses, but I suppose you will have breakthrough bleeding when you change them? Stable hormone levels are important to keep the endometrium from shedding, unless you're on a sequential regime.
I've been on a stable regime for well over 3 months now and the womb keeps leaking, if not blood then discharge.
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One more reason to see a GP asap, discharge is not a usual HRT side effect. You have to overcome your fear/anxiety so you can move on. Lots of love.
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Hi Dandelion, just wondering how you're doing. Are you taking testosterone? I've just read an article on depression (my biggest issue now) and I immediately thought about what you've said regarding GABA levels. Apparently it's not just progesterone metabolites that can interact with GABA, testosterone can also have anxiolytic and anti-depressant properties related to increased GABA levels.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032718310541
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Hi Dandelion, just wondering how you're doing. Are you taking testosterone? I've just read an article on depression (my biggest issue now) and I immediately thought about what you've said regarding GABA levels. Apparently it's not just progesterone metabolites that can interact with GABA, testosterone can also have anxiolytic and anti-depressant properties related to increased GABA levels.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032718310541
Hi Sage
Sorry I am late to reply, somehow I missed your posts and thank you for them.
It's the valium addiction and the cross tolerance with the prog that is making me fear seeing the GP.
I have other worries as well, an autism assessment coming up, non medical worries that are bothering me.
I was fine until I had to start taking the prog daily, which I did as I was going looney on the non prog days due to Valium's cross tolerance.
I have only had little bits of brown discharge since writing, flecks of womb lining, one day clear, but today red blood.
I don't want any doc forcing a prog change on me as that will upset my GABA
Thanks for the testosterone, I thought about it but I just don't want to add anything to the mix.
My sweating is not too bad on the 50mcg of oestrogen gel.
I wonder if I should reduce it to 25mcg.
I plan to go to GP once bleeding and discharge stops, but it hasn't, and I just have too many worries.
I am possibly autistic so I get meltdowns due to stress, I am getting assessed for autism next month.
The meltdowns are dangerous I really hurt myself. That is another reason.
I don't want the doctor forcing me onto a different prog or taking hrt off me, its the fact that you only get 10 mins and that is with a double appointment.
I take notes, some of them read them through, but its the fact that they are in a rush that also scares me.
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Hi
Please also see post above
I had extremely mild pelvic pain and dark brown on my pad today
I wonder if I should reduce my oestrogen to 25mcg
Doc said transvaginal ultrasounds unreliable for womb lining thickening when I went in June 2019
As post above says, situation complex, and double appointments are only 10mis
Thanks for any help
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Hi Dandelion
Sounds like you are really going through it, with the bleeding and with the worry about the bleeding.
Just to share, I feel like utrogestan makes me spot. I take it 12 days a month and usually start various types of spotting on day 8. All colours just like you say and often dark brown in small amounts. I have a proper bleed randomly but currently no full bleed since May.
I had a scan and hysteroscopy biopsy A while ago and the specialist said all was well and I only needed to go back if things changed. I described the 4 or 5 scenarios that my random body sometimes does and she said that my uterus was all fine and not to worry, just keep a diary and go back if it felt different.
It does nag at me that I am not in a proper pattern, but now I have been on hrt for 18 months it really does feel like the Utro brings on the spotting, and theN occasionally I have a proper period.
I hope you get some answers soon and I wonder if you could ask to be referred to a specialist rather than the GP? GPs are just doing their job but do Seem to worry about anything that’s not ‘textbook’.
I hope you get some answers soon and try not to worry too much.
Sparkler
X
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Hi Dandelion
Sounds like you are really going through it, with the bleeding and with the worry about the bleeding.
Just to share, I feel like utrogestan makes me spot. I take it 12 days a month and usually start various types of spotting on day 8. All colours just like you say and often dark brown in small amounts. I have a proper bleed randomly but currently no full bleed since May.
I had a scan and hysteroscopy biopsy A while ago and the specialist said all was well and I only needed to go back if things changed. I described the 4 or 5 scenarios that my random body sometimes does and she said that my uterus was all fine and not to worry, just keep a diary and go back if it felt different.
It does nag at me that I am not in a proper pattern, but now I have been on hrt for 18 months it really does feel like the Utro brings on the spotting, and theN occasionally I have a proper period.
I hope you get some answers soon and I wonder if you could ask to be referred to a specialist rather than the GP? GPs are just doing their job but do Seem to worry about anything that’s not ‘textbook’.
I hope you get some answers soon and try not to worry too much.
Sparkler
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Hi Sparkler
It sounds like you are on sequi HRT I am on conti, I have to take utro daily as its cross tolerant to the valium I am addicted to. All was fine with my hrt until I started taking it daily.
It's good you had a scan and a hysteroscopy, so did I in Jan 2019, all was well until June 2019 when GP reduced my oestrogen patch from 100mcg to75mcg and bleeding went, bit more sweating but bearable.
Then the bleeding came back.
I emailed Dr Currie who advised me to see GP as I had large clots, pelvic pain, feeling like a teenager again, red bleeds at random times.
They went for a few months, but they keep coming back.
Today has been small black bits on tissue, watery red brown and watery red.
The gynaecologist said in 2019 if bleeding doesn't stop I might end up going back and forth to the gynaecologist.
I can't change progesterone due to the cross tolerance
I even went on gel and reduced to 50mcg but the bleeding wont let up.
The short time we are allowed at the GP's put me off plus you never see the same one twice.
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Hi Dandelion could you explain what you mean by cross tolerance with your valium?x
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Hi Dandelion could you explain what you mean by cross tolerance with your valium?x
The metabolite of progesterone allopregnanolone acts on the same GABAA receptors as valium, so messing about with that would be like a big alteration to my valium dose.
I am currently reducing the valium slowly as the withdrawals are horrible, messing with the prog will mess that up.
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Gynae said I had stenosed cervix, in 2019
He couldn't even get a straw thin implement into it when I saw him.
He said my cervix had closed shut, stenosed.
I am wondering if the closed cervix has prevented the red blood coming out hence it coming out congealed.
A few weeks ago the pelvic pain was really sore in the left part of my pelvis
I wonder if the lining has started migrating from my womb and into the pelvic canal.
The rush at the doctors and the inability to change prog regime has put me off going
The discharge is dark brown and black and red today
I read about stenosed cervixes and endometriosis
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Hi Dandelion, you need to get an appointment to be properly diagnosed. If GP or Gynaecologist think you need to change progesterone you can ask to be referred to a mental health specialist who is knowledgeable about cross tolerance.
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Hi Dandelion, you need to get an appointment to be properly diagnosed. If GP or Gynaecologist think you need to change progesterone you can ask to be referred to a mental health specialist who is knowledgeable about cross tolerance.
Hi Sage
I have a mental health nurse and psychiatrist and they do not know about cross tolerance between valium and progesterone.
The problem with a GP appointment is that the issue is so complex there is not enough time and we don't get the choice of what GP we see in our surgery.
I wonder if reducing my oestrogen will work.
It's odd because I still get soaked on a night sometimes, so the sweats suggest that I am not on too much oestrogen.
This problem only started when I started taking prog daily but I can't have a break as I could seizure.
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I see. Well, they can always be encouraged to read about cross tolerance! Have you tried to explain it so they can seek more information?
If you reduce oestrogen you might end up not controlling menopause symptoms. Have you tried increasing Utrogestan dose? Maybe you need more steady progesterone levels.
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I see. Well, they can always be encouraged to read about cross tolerance! Have you tried to explain it so they can seek more information?
If you reduce oestrogen you might end up not controlling menopause symptoms. Have you tried increasing Utrogestan dose? Maybe you need more steady progesterone levels.
Yeah, I have but they don't have time.
As for the oestrogen, my GP reduced it last year as it opposes the progesterone, which makes sense, as the oestrogen is what causes womb lining thickening.
Confusingly though, even though I reduced it again, I am getting sweating and bleeding, that should not be happening, one or the other, but not both.
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Do you need a document explaining cross tolerance between GABAergic agents, with links to references, to take it with you on your next appointment? I'd be glad to help you.
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Do you need a document explaining cross tolerance between GABAergic agents, with links to references, to take it with you on your next appointment? I'd be glad to help you.
Thanks, I don't have a printer, also the doctors don't have time to read documents. You can show me it.
When I go, I put my points on paper in Bullet point form but this time what I have to say will be too long I don't know if they will have time to read it.
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You can save it on a USB pen drive... or maybe change GP, Gynae, Psychiatrist? What you can't do is postponing an appointment to address this bleeding issue. It can be just hormonal imbalance, but you'll never know if it's not investigated and your anxiety is going to get worse. I will write a short evidence based doc and I'll PM it to you, so you can do whatever you like. Stay safe.
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You can save it on a USB pen drive... or maybe change GP, Gynae, Psychiatrist? What you can't do is postponing an appointment to address this bleeding issue. It can be just hormonal imbalance, but you'll never know if it's not investigated and your anxiety is going to get worse. I will write a short evidence based doc and I'll PM it to you, so you can do whatever you like. Stay safe.
Hi Sage
I am housebound, I get taxis to doctors.
You could send me the link.
I have postponed it since June 2019 - the doctor said trans vaginal ultrasounds are now classed as unreliable at that time, as I requested another scan. That is when she reduced my oestrogen, which you would think would work.
My hysteroscopy in January 2019 did not show polyps, or any cancer.
I just dunno why this bleeding won't let up, especially since I reduced the oestrogen myself again.
I also have a lot of other anxieties, non medical, this is just piling on top.
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I've sent you a PM with the links and brief descriptions.
What does your doctor mean by 'unreliable' regarding transvaginal ultrasounds? Your hysteroscopy results are great, but it's been a while, so you can't rely on that. Maybe you have absorption issues and you're not getting a stable dose of the hormones, hence the bleeding. It has to be investigated so you can tick that off your anxiety list.
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I've sent you a PM with the links and brief descriptions.
What does your doctor mean by 'unreliable' regarding transvaginal ultrasounds? Your hysteroscopy results are great, but it's been a while, so you can't rely on that. Maybe you have absorption issues and you're not getting a stable dose of the hormones, hence the bleeding. It has to be investigated so you can tick that off your anxiety list.
The GP told me that transvaginal ultrasounds are no longer reliable in determining womb lining thickness.
I replied to your first message, thanks for the links.
You got my message regarding tolerance to allopreganolone, but I sent you another message regarding PTSD, my screen went funny and I forgot to put a copy in my outbox, and I don't know if you got it, please could you let me know if you did, and if so, could you send me a reply so I have a copy of it, thanks, sorry to be a pain, I feel despondent as I think I have PTSD and my message was about stress hormones in PTSD cancelling out allopregnanolone.
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I've got it and have quoted you on my reply. Don't be sorry, we're here to help, at least we try :)
So what's 'reliable in determining womb lining thickness', according to her?
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I've got it and have quoted you on my reply. Don't be sorry, we're here to help, at least we try :)
So what's 'reliable in determining womb lining thickness', according to her?
Thank you, you are very kind.
She said women with abnormal bleeding are sent for hysteroscopy.
I had my hysteroscopy by general anaesthetic as I specifically requested as I heard it was agony.
Nowadays I hear it is done using paracetamol and ibuprofen, (I can't take that) I read that you have to pay for general anaesthetic.
I have a stenosed cervix according to my gynaecologist, he tried to get a really thin implement in there, thinner than a straw and my cervix would not let him in.
I dread the thought of being awake and having another hysteroscopy and having them use dilators while I am awake.
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Hi Dandelion, how are you doing? Hope the bleeding has stopped!
I'm sure you'll be offered sedation if you have anxiety issues during a hysteroscopy, otherwise they won't be able to perform the procedure. I suppose hysteroscopy is more reliable than transvaginal scan when there's unscheduled bleeding involved, although I think it's still widely used for endometrium measurement, but I could be wrong.
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Hi Dandelion, how are you doing? Hope the bleeding has stopped!
I'm sure you'll be offered sedation if you have anxiety issues during a hysteroscopy, otherwise they won't be able to perform the procedure. I suppose hysteroscopy is more reliable than transvaginal scan when there's unscheduled bleeding involved, although I think it's still widely used for endometrium measurement, but I could be wrong.
Hi Sage thanks for asking
I can't take sedation during a hystersocopy as it would be a benzodiazepine like the valium I am addicted to.
I thought the bleeding had stopped for a day but it has come back.
How can they give me a hysteroscopy when my cervix is closed, they would need to dilate it, and that would be far too painful awake.
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I think they would have to use a local anaesthetic for dilation. If they still can't do the procedure you would have to get a GA.
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I think they would have to use a local anaesthetic for dilation. If they still can't do the procedure you would have to get a GA.
I've heard lots of women say a local doesn't work. I hope I don't need one, I just want it to stop coming back.
I halved my oestrogen and sometimes get night sweats so it's not as if I am using too much oestrogen, dunno why my womb won't behave like a 54 year old womb and stop bleeding randomly.
It's been going on 2 months now.
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Sorry if you have already replied to this question, can't remember now, are you sure you're not still perimenopausal?
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Sorry if you have already replied to this question, can't remember now, are you sure you're not still perimenopausal?
It's ok, I'm definitely post-menopausal.
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Sorry if you have already replied to this question, can't remember now, are you sure you're not still perimenopausal?
It's ok, I'm definitely post-menopausal.
Thank you! So, you really need to get this investigated, not that I think it's anything sinister, but you can't keep bleeding and stressing about it, given your anxiety issues. Do you have any support from family, friends?
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Sorry if you have already replied to this question, can't remember now, are you sure you're not still perimenopausal?
It's ok, I'm definitely post-menopausal.
Thank you! So, you really need to get this investigated, not that I think it's anything sinister, but you can't keep bleeding and stressing about it, given your anxiety issues. Do you have any support from family, friends?
No, it's just that I have so many other stressors, non medical and other medical, that I just can't face it at the moment.
I can't understand why after decreasing my oestrogen twice, and getting sweats, the progesterone is not seeming to do it's job. I insert one vaginally. I can't even change delivery method and it will mess with my receptors. I just want a clean pad and for it not to come back then I may get the courage to go to the doctors. It happened in March stopped, then back again.
It's the fact that the GP's have so little time as well.
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Maybe you're bleeding because you have changed doses too soon. Give it more time to settle and don't change anything. Keep us posted, will you?
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Maybe you're bleeding because you have changed doses too soon. Give it more time to settle and don't change anything. Keep us posted, will you?
Hi Sage
I've been on the same dose since April, that was the last time I changed, hoping bleeding would go. Sweats came back which gave me hope that I am not on too much oestrogen but blood won't go away.
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Hi Dandelion, are you on any other meds, besides Valium and HRT?
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Hi Dandelion, are you on any other meds, besides Valium and HRT?
None x
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That's good, I don't know if stress, anxiety, depression can influence endometrium and bleeding when you're on HRT, but I'm sure they can influence our ovaries. Maybe you still have ovary function, I certainly can tell that mine are still cycling somehow, albeit with very low levels of hormones. I'm 4 years postmenopause and I can feel small surges of energy, libido and general well being. Have your ovaries been seen during scan?
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That's good, I don't know if stress, anxiety, depression can influence endometrium and bleeding when you're on HRT, but I'm sure they can influence our ovaries. Maybe you still have ovary function, I certainly can tell that mine are still cycling somehow, albeit with very low levels of hormones. I'm 4 years postmenopause and I can feel small surges of energy, libido and general well being. Have your ovaries been seen during scan?
The lady who did the trans vaginal ultrasound scan had real difficulty finding one ovary.
I am now wondering if it was hidden by blood because I have been told my cervix is stenosed and I know that if postmenopausal women continue to bleed and there is nowhere for the blood to go, it can cause endometriosis, and I wonder if stray blood was hiding that ovary that she had difficulty finding.
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Hmm... I don't think clotted blood would be enough to cause endometriosis, but everything is possible. The only way to know if your continuous bleeding is due to endometriosis is try one of the treatments, because oestrogen will keep feeding the endometrium. Are you willing to try one of them? (Coil excluded, of course) https://www.endometriosis-uk.org/hormone-treatments-endometriosis
Have you ever had any trauma, surgery, infection or cysts on cervix? Or is the stenosis due to menopause atrophy? Have you ever had pregnancies? I think one of the treatments for cervix stenosis is hysteroscopic shaving, so maybe hysteroscopy is going to be a good thing for you. Tell them you need GA, you're a special case.
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Hmm... I don't think clotted blood would be enough to cause endometriosis, but everything is possible. The only way to know if your continuous bleeding is due to endometriosis is try one of the treatments, because oestrogen will keep feeding the endometrium. Are you willing to try one of them? (Coil excluded, of course) https://www.endometriosis-uk.org/hormone-treatments-endometriosis
Have you ever had any trauma, surgery, infection or cysts on cervix? Or is the stenosis due to menopause atrophy? Have you ever had pregnancies? I think one of the treatments for cervix stenosis is hysteroscopic shaving, so maybe hysteroscopy is going to be a good thing for you. Tell them you need GA, you're a special case.
I looked up endometriosis treatments and can't take them they will mess up my GABA receptors.
To save you scrolling I am a valium addict, progesterone is cross tolerant and messig my progesterone will seriously mess me up in a big way.
No cervix trauma.
Gynae said stenosis is due to meno
No pregnancies.
Hysteroscopic shaving sounds agony.
Thanks for post
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Thanks, I've already read your previous posts. You could try gonadotrophin releasing hormone analogues or testosterone derived drugs for endometriosis. They could even be more powerful for modulating GABA than progesterone.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2014.00387/full
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Thanks, I've already read your previous posts. You could try gonadotrophin releasing hormone analogues or testosterone derived drugs for endometriosis. They could even be more powerful for modulating GABA then progesterone.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2014.00387/full
Hi Uptick
Thanks for fishing out links. I can't change my regime at all, or my endocrine system. It would be like increasing or decreasing valium. I am slowly coming off it. I have just been to the loo and more blood is there, I just want my womb to grow up and realise its 54 years old not some 14 year old with irregular or permanent periods.
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Thanks, I've already read your previous posts. You could try gonadotrophin releasing hormone analogues or testosterone derived drugs for endometriosis. They could even be more powerful for modulating GABA then progesterone.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2014.00387/full
Hi Uptick
Thanks for fishing out links. I can't change my regime at all, or my endocrine system. It would be like increasing or decreasing valium. I am slowly coming off it. I have just been to the loo and more blood is there, I just want my womb to grow up and realise its 54 years old not some 14 year old with irregular or permanent periods.
I see... but unfortunately your womb won't grow up and realise anything. You (and hopefully your doctor) have to know what's causing the bleeding. Could Valium be the cause? It can cause unusual bleeding and bruising.
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Thanks, I've already read your previous posts. You could try gonadotrophin releasing hormone analogues or testosterone derived drugs for endometriosis. They could even be more powerful for modulating GABA then progesterone.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2014.00387/full
Hi Uptick
Thanks for fishing out links. I can't change my regime at all, or my endocrine system. It would be like increasing or decreasing valium. I am slowly coming off it. I have just been to the loo and more blood is there, I just want my womb to grow up and realise its 54 years old not some 14 year old with irregular or permanent periods.
I see... but unfortunately your womb won't grow up and realise anything. You (and hopefully your doctor) have to know what's causing the bleeding. Could Valium be the cause? It can cause unusual bleeding and bruising.
I don't know if valium can cause unusual bleeding and bruising.
I have a lot of major worries that are non meno related but very serious, I just cant be doing with seeing red on a pad that I shouldn't even be needing to wear anyway.
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I understand, it's all very distressing. I won't insist on discussing it, because I can feel you're not in a good place right now and I won't be adding to your stress. That said, I have read a lot about hormones and one thing might be interesting to you. Benzodiazepines can theoretically induce hepatic microsomal enzymes which can decrease the bioavailability of both oestrogen and progesterone so maybe you have to consider increasing HRT dose under the supervision of your doctors. Good luck and keep us posted.
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I understand, it's all very distressing. I won't insist on discussing it, because I can feel you're not in a good place right now and I won't be adding to your stress. That said, I have read a lot about hormones and one thing might be interesting to you. Benzodiazepines can theoretically induce hepatic microsomal enzymes which can decrease the bioavailability of both oestrogen and progesterone so maybe you have to consider increasing HRT dose under the supervision of your doctors. Good luck and keep us posted.
Thanks Uptick for posting x
Reading about how Benzes upset hormones just adds worry, I am on a much much smaller dose yet the bleeding is increasing.
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Maybe you need to increase the dose to stop the bleeding, that was my point. Benzos decrease oestrogen and progesterone bioavailability.
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Maybe you need to increase the dose to stop the bleeding, that was my point. Benzos decrease oestrogen and progesterone bioavailability.
I was on 75mg valium, now only on 29mg, while I am thankful to you, increasing the progesterone would be like taking a big increase in the valium as the metabolite of progesterone is cross tolerant to valium.
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Well done, benzos withdrawal is not an easy task. Cross tolerance is a very complex mechanism, it's not straightforward as you might think. Different neurons react to GABA and progesterone in different ways. You need a good mental health team to support you through your menopause transition and HRT regime.
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Well done, benzos withdrawal is not an easy task. Cross tolerance is a very complex mechanism, it's not straightforward as you might think. Different neurons react to GABA and progesterone in different ways. You need a good mental health team to support you through your menopause transition and HRT regime.
Hi Uptick
It's great to have you post on my thread, you sound knowledgeable, where do you get all of your knowledge?
Do you work in the field?
Sadly, my mental health team don't have the first clue about menopause and how it affects gaba receptors, the doctors don't have the time to read any online literature I read.
I read some scientific articles about how receptors are affected and it just fuelled my anxiety as it is so complex.
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Sorry, I should have known that scientific articles would trigger more anxiety. Same with Dr. Google. I think you have to find a doctor who can help you, someone who listens to you and can earn your trust. I'm a microbiologist, but I didn't know much about menopause before I had my own perimenopause journey, tbh!
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Sorry, I should have known that scientific articles would trigger more anxiety. Same with Dr. Google. I think you have to find a doctor who can help you, someone who listens to you and can earn your trust. I'm a microbiologist, but I didn't know much about menopause before I had my own perimenopause journey, tbh!
It's still nice to be talking to you.
Sadly in our surgery, we don't get the choice of which doctors we see.
I have noticed my vagina feels a bit sore, like it's chapped but it isn't. It's not a great trouble, I can live with it thankfully. Maybe its not the womb that is bleeding maybe its the cervix.
I AM up to date with smears thankfully though.
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That's good regarding smears, I need one asap ::) Sore vagina could be due to lowering estradiol? Cervical bleeding could be a polyp, but I guess you have already had a hysteroscopy and no polyps have been found, right?
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That's good regarding smears, I need one asap ::) Sore vagina could be due to lowering estradiol? Cervical bleeding could be a polyp, but I guess you have already had a hysteroscopy and no polyps have been found, right?
The hysteroscopy in January 2019 found nothing.
If my oestradiol is lowering why the bleeding?
I thought the bleeding was due to high estradiol?
It would have made sense if I was bleeding 75mg valium but not on 29mg, nearly 2 thirds of the 75mg dose lower.
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Sorry, I should have known that scientific articles would trigger more anxiety. Same with Dr. Google. I think you have to find a doctor who can help you, someone who listens to you and can earn your trust. I'm a microbiologist, but I didn't know much about menopause before I had my own perimenopause journey, tbh!
It's still nice to be talking to you.
Sadly in our surgery, we don't get the choice of which doctors we see.
I have noticed my vagina feels a bit sore, like it's chapped but it isn't. It's not a great trouble, I can live with it thankfully. Maybe its not the womb that is bleeding maybe its the cervix.
I AM up to date with smears thankfully though.
It sounds like you have VA. Are you using anything for this, such as Vagifem or Ovestin?
JP x
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Sorry, I should have known that scientific articles would trigger more anxiety. Same with Dr. Google. I think you have to find a doctor who can help you, someone who listens to you and can earn your trust. I'm a microbiologist, but I didn't know much about menopause before I had my own perimenopause journey, tbh!
It's still nice to be talking to you.
Sadly in our surgery, we don't get the choice of which doctors we see.
I have noticed my vagina feels a bit sore, like it's chapped but it isn't. It's not a great trouble, I can live with it thankfully. Maybe its not the womb that is bleeding maybe its the cervix.
I AM up to date with smears thankfully though.
It sounds like you have VA. Are you using anything for this, such as Vagifem or Ovestin?
JP x
No, it's not that bothersome, I started meno at 42 years of age, think I am through worst of flushes, so been lucky with vaginal atrophy. It's only intermittent, some days I don't feel it.
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Hi Dandelion, do you mean you have started PERIMENOPAUSE at 42 or menopause (12 months without a period)?
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Hi Dandelion, do you mean you have started PERIMENOPAUSE at 42 or menopause (12 months without a period)?
I started per at 42, didnt start hrt till 47 still in peri.
Bleeding worse today, nice bright red teenage blood with clots.
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So sorry to hear that, Dandelion. How long are you going to wait until you book an appointment?
If you have started HRT at 47 when you were still in peri, how can you tell you're post menopause?
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So sorry to hear that, Dandelion. How long are you going to wait until you book an appointment?
If you have started HRT at 47 when you were still in peri, how can you tell you're post menopause?
I'm 54 so I am post meno.
You know I said I had other serious problems non medical, well they have been added to today.
Not going to the GP for the foreseeable future, they rush too much, case too complex, don't get to see the same GP or a choice in who I see.
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I don't think you can say you're post menopause solely based on age. Some women are still having periods at this age. If you have been on HRT this whole time you can't know if you are post menopause. Maybe that's why you're having unscheduled bleeding, maybe your own hormones are fluctuating because you're about to transition to menopause.
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I don't think you can say you're post menopause solely based on age. Some women are still having periods at this age. If you have been on HRT this whole time you can't know if you are post menopause. Maybe that's why you're having unscheduled bleeding, maybe your own hormones are fluctuating because you're about to transition to menopause.
I'm pretty sure the NHS say by the age of 54 you are classed as post meno, it may even be on here.
This is a loooooooooong period.
Every day I hope to see a plain pad with nothing on, then I can stop wearing them, but I don't want to ruin knickers.
Things were ok no bleeding on hrt for 3 years until I started daily utro due to valium cross tolerance. Even increasing the utro and decreasing the oestadiol no avail.
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This is just an average age of menopause, it doesn't mean all women will be post menopause at age 54. My mother was still having normal periods at 56!
Unscheduled bleeding has nothing to do with Valium cross tolerance with progesterone. You have to focus on the cause of bleeding. I think you are not postmenopause.
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This is just an average age of menopause, it doesn't mean all women will be post menopause at age 54. My mother was still having normal periods at 56!
Unscheduled bleeding has nothing to do with Valium cross tolerance with progesterone. You have to focus on the cause of bleeding. I think you are not postmenopause.
You might be right re post menopause, I started my periods when I was nearly 13
I had no problems at all, teenage period pain, no biggy.
It all started 6 moths after daily progesterone.
I'm gobbling one 100mg utro, shoving another 100mg utro up my chuff and this bleeding is still not letting up.
I had another stressor today.
The thought of going to the doctors is just making me feel triggered.
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I'm sorry you're having so many problems.
Can I ask you why one oral and one vaginal Utrogestan?
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I'm sorry you're having so many problems.
Can I ask you why one oral and one vaginal Utrogestan?
I was taking sequential 200mg oral progesterone and a while after I became addicted to valium I wondered why I was going nuts on the days I wasn't having the progesterone.
Possible violent autistic meltdowns - this is when I found out about cross tolerance.
I then went on 100mg daily prog as I didn't think my doc would let me, and even my psych nurse said I Was more stable. No problems for 6 or 7 months until blood started appearing in June 18.
Plucked up courage at end of that year to see doc and gynaecologist in Jan 19 for hysteroscopy and no cancer or other problems.
After talking to Dr Currie, not wanting to take oral prog due to first pass liver, she suggested asking them if I could take an extra 100mg vaginal.
All went well with this till June 19, GP reduced patch from 100mcg to 75mcg
All went well until end 2019, clots massive bleeding long periods intermittently.
This discharge and periods have been going on 2 months.
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Thank you, can I ask when do you take the oral and the vaginal Utrogestan? And when to you spread Oestrogel?
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Thank you, can I ask when do you take the oral and the vaginal Utrogestan? And when to you spread Oestrogel?
I spread the oestrogen on both arms 1 pump each at around 7-8pm nightly
I take the oral and vaginal utrogestan last thing at night.
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Thank you. I've sent you a PM.
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Thank you. I've sent you a PM.
Thanks I saw it, much appreciated, I sent the reply just now. x
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Hi Dandelion, I knew I had seen Diazepam mentioned whilst researching about Utrogestan and it's in the patient information leaflet.
"Other medicines and Utrogestan
Utrogestan can affect the way some other medicines work. Also some medicines may interfere with the effect of Utrogestan. This might lead to irregular bleeding. This applies to the following medicines:
Medicines for epilepsy (such as phenobarbital, phenytoin and carbamazepine);
Medicines for tuberculosis (such as rifampicin, rifabutin);
Medicines for HIV infection (such as nevirapine, efavirenz, ritonavir and nelfinavir);
Herbal remedies containing St John’s Wort (Hypericum perforatum);
Bromocriptine used for problems with the pituitary gland or Parkinson’s Disease;
Ciclosporin (used to suppress the immune system);
Ketoconazole, griseofulvin, terbinafine (used for fungal infections);
Water tablets (spironolactone);
Antibiotics (ampicillins, tetracyclines);
Antisteroids (medroxyprogesterone acetate, megestrol)
Medicines to prevent blood clots (such as coumarins, phenindione)
Diabetic medicines
Emergency contraceptives (ulipristal acetate)
Diazepam
Tizanidine (used in multiple sclerosis)
Tell your doctor or pharmacist if you are taking, have recently taken or might take any other medicines including medicines obtained without a prescription, herbal medicines or other natural products."
I suppose this could explain your irregular bleeding. Maybe you could try another progestogen.
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Hi Dandelion, I knew I had seen Diazepam mentioned whilst researching about Utrogestan and it's in the patient information leaflet.
"Other medicines and Utrogestan
Utrogestan can affect the way some other medicines work. Also some medicines may interfere with the effect of Utrogestan. This might lead to irregular bleeding. This applies to the following medicines:
Medicines for epilepsy (such as phenobarbital, phenytoin and carbamazepine);
Medicines for tuberculosis (such as rifampicin, rifabutin);
Medicines for HIV infection (such as nevirapine, efavirenz, ritonavir and nelfinavir);
Herbal remedies containing St John’s Wort (Hypericum perforatum);
Bromocriptine used for problems with the pituitary gland or Parkinson’s Disease;
Ciclosporin (used to suppress the immune system);
Ketoconazole, griseofulvin, terbinafine (used for fungal infections);
Water tablets (spironolactone);
Antibiotics (ampicillins, tetracyclines);
Antisteroids (medroxyprogesterone acetate, megestrol)
Medicines to prevent blood clots (such as coumarins, phenindione)
Diabetic medicines
Emergency contraceptives (ulipristal acetate)
Diazepam
Tizanidine (used in multiple sclerosis)
Tell your doctor or pharmacist if you are taking, have recently taken or might take any other medicines including medicines obtained without a prescription, herbal medicines or other natural products."
I suppose this could explain your irregular bleeding. Maybe you could try another progestogen.
Hi
Thanks for the list, I can't try another progestogen as it will disrupt my GABA and send me round the twist.
What I want to know is why Diazepam only started making me bleed irregularly 3 years after I started taking the utro, and then the bleeding only started when taking it daily.
Do you know how it interferes with utro, I Can only find pharmaceutical articles which are double dutch to me, I need something which tells me in plain English.
I am worried that the diazepam is cancelling out the utrogestan or increasing the oestrogen.
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My idea is that you keep taking oral Utro100, to keep your GABA receptors positively modulated by progesterone, and stop vaginal Utro100 replacing it with another progestogen (that doesn't interfere with GABA receptors) just to oppose oestrogen at the endometrium level and stabilise the bleeding.
You can send me the links to the articles, if you want me to 'translate' the technical information.
Don't worry about Valium/Diazepam 'cancelling out' Utro and increasing oestrogen. Benzos can decrease the bioavailability of BOTH steroids and as long as their job is being done, relieving menopause symptoms and keeping the endometrium healthy, it doesn't matter what Valium is doing to them.
I think Utro is not suitable for you as an oestrogen opposing drug, you need a more stable progestogen that don't interfere with GABA receptors and is not influenced by Valium. Utro is suitable for you as a GABAergic drug to help you taper off Valium.
Hope this makes sense to you.
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My idea is that you keep taking oral Utro100, to keep your GABA receptors positively modulated by progesterone, and stop vaginal Utro100 replacing it with another progestogen (that doesn't interfere with GABA receptors) just to oppose oestrogen at the endometrium level and stabilise the bleeding.
You can send me the links to the articles, if you want me to 'translate' the technical information.
Don't worry about Valium/Diazepam 'cancelling out' Utro and increasing oestrogen. Benzos can decrease the bioavailability of BOTH steroids and as long as their job is being done, relieving menopause symptoms and keeping the endometrium healthy, it doesn't matter what Valium is doing to them.
I think Utro is not suitable for you as an oestrogen opposing drug, you need a more stable progestogen that don't interfere with GABA receptors and is not influenced by Valium. Utro is suitable for you as a GABAergic drug to help you taper off Valium.
Hope this makes sense to you.
Hi Uptick and thanks for your answer
The progestogen will still alter my GABA levels, even vaginally. They still have allo as metabolite.
People on the benzo forum have stopped prog cream and had withdrawals.
To be honest, not only can I not find the articles, they just fuel my anxiety.
Benzos can decrease the bioavailability of BOTH steroids and as long as their job is being done, relieving menopause symptoms and keeping the endometrium healthy, it doesn't matter what Valium is doing to them.
I'm worried because the Diaz might be decreasing the bioavailability of progesterone causing bleeding.
Why don't you think utro is suitable?
It was suitable for a few years with no bleeding, and I am on less valium now.
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The metabolism of synthetic progestins is not well known, but it is known that Levonorgestrel can decrease allopregnanolone levels and Drospirenone doesn't affect them. Actually, even estradiol can increase allopregnanolone levels without the aid of any progestogen, so don't focus on this or you will end up mad. It's trial and error, I'm afraid.
Benzo forums might not be a great idea, many members are obsessed with their own addiction and this may cloud their judgement, not to mention most of them don't have a scientific background to state these things, when even scientists are cautious about them.
Progesterone creams are probably compounded and there are many different ones in the market, there's no way you can rely on these reports.
I don't think Utrogestan is suitable for 2 reasons:
1. The manufacturer says it can cause irregular bleeding when taken along Diazepam/Valium. That's exactly what's happening to you. When you say you have taken Utro in the past and was not bleeding, when exactly did this happen? I couldn't find it in your previous posts.
You have changed sequential to continuous regime, you have changed oral to vaginal and now you're having both routes. Many things have changed, and time is also a factor when considering the effect of continuous exogenous progesterone, not only progesterone receptors but also oestrogen receptors can be up or down-regulated.
2. Utrogestan is the same as your own progesterone. It affects many cells besides the endometrial cells. It affects your neurons. It is a neurosteroid. Synthetic progestogens (or progestins) can have different effects. The word out there is that micronised progesterone is safer because it's identical to our own progesterone, but for some women, their own progesterone is the cause of many bad reactions (PMS, PMDD, postnatal depression). In your case, it's bad because it can mess up with Valium and your brain health. If you can find a progestogen that doesn't interfere with Valium, I think you could control the bleeding. Again, it's trial and error, but scientific data can help you (and your doctors) to choose a better option.
This is a straightforward article on progesterone and synthetic progestins effects in the brain.
https://jme.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/jme/57/2/R109.xml
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The metabolism of synthetic progestins is not well known, but it is known that Levonorgestrel can decrease allopregnanolone levels and Drospirenone doesn't affect them. Actually, even estradiol can increase allopregnanolone levels without the aid of any progestogen, so don't focus on this or you will end up mad. It's trial and error, I'm afraid.
Benzo forums might not be a great idea, many members are obsessed with their own addiction and this may cloud their judgement, not to mention most of them don't have a scientific background to state these things, when even scientists are cautious about them.
Progesterone creams are probably compounded and there are many different ones in the market, there's no way you can rely on these reports.
I don't think Utrogestan is suitable for 2 reasons:
1. The manufacturer says it can cause irregular bleeding when taken along Diazepam/Valium. That's exactly what's happening to you. When you say you have taken Utro in the past and was not bleeding, when exactly did this happen? I couldn't find it in your previous posts.
You have changed sequential to continuous regime, you have changed oral to vaginal and now you're having both routes. Many things have changed, and time is also a factor when considering the effect of continuous exogenous progesterone, not only progesterone receptors but also oestrogen receptors can be up or down-regulated.
2. Utrogestan is the same as your own progesterone. It affects many cells besides the endometrial cells. It affects your neurons. It is a neurosteroid. Synthetic progestogens (or progestins) can have different effects. The word out there is that micronised progesterone is safer because it's identical to our own progesterone, but for some women, their own progesterone is the cause of many bad reactions (PMS, PMDD, postnatal depression). In your case, it's bad because it can mess up with Valium and your brain health. If you can find a progestogen that doesn't interfere with Valium, I think you could control the bleeding. Again, it's trial and error, but scientific data can help you (and your doctors) to choose a better option.
This is a straightforward article on progesterone and synthetic progestins effects in the brain.
https://jme.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/jme/57/2/R109.xml
Hi thanks for the article, I am REALLY worried now.
That's just it, I can't afford to tinker with trial and error. If you would have seen me when I was on sequi HRT I had violent meltdowns when not taking the utro.
Also, I don't want to pollute the environment with synthetics, they would alter my GABA and effectively derail it.
There is a few on the benzo forums who do have scientific backgrounds, I wish I had read their posts before going on hrt.
When I took utro, I took it sequentially - no bleeds, but started going loopy, took it without bleeds for 6 months then the bleeding started.
I am on a lot less valium now.
Can you elaborate on this please and is is good or bad news for me
time is also a factor when considering the effect of continuous exogenous progesterone, not only progesterone receptors but also oestrogen receptors can be up or down-regulated.
How is time a factor?
IS this good news? I need some good news.
How can utrogestan mess with my brain health? This really scares me, I am anxious to know, could I get brain damage from it?
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No, you don't need to be worried. You're just having the normal reaction of someone who is on a health anxiety loop.
If you post a link to this benzo forum I can tell you if their scientific background is enough to counteract their own emotional issues. I doubt it.
You don't need to tinker with trial and error, you just need to stop overthinking before you actually do something to change your current situation, otherwise you will have only one option: wait and hope the bleeding will stop.
You don't need to stop Utro. You will keep taking it orally to provide enough allopregnanolone to your GABA receptors. All you need is to discuss with your doctors which progestogen you could add for endometrial safety. I can suggest some, based on scientific data, but unfortunately, science is not miraculous, each woman can have different side effects, that's why it's trial and error.
I'm confused. You took Utro sequentially and didn't bleed? You're supposed to bleed on a sequential regime.
The fact that you're on less Valium is good, but this is not preventing the bleeding which is your current issue, so if you're not having any violent meltdowns now, it means you're stable. If you stop vaginal Utro you could relapse, so I understand your situation and this is a risk, but you have to do it under medical supervision. There's medication available to stop withdrawal symptoms.
Long term continuous exogenous progesterone is not a natural occurrence. The body produces progesterone in pulses when ovaries are cycling. After menopause, progesterone levels decline and remain very low. Utrogestan was designed for luteal support during pregnancy. It's taken at high amounts but once pregnancy is successful, women will stop taking it. The effects of continuous high levels of progesterone on the regulation of steroid receptors or brain chemistry are not known. You want to know what is going to happen, but this is simply not the case. We don't know, that's why it's trial and error, but with great probability of success if it's done under medical supervision.
I understand you are afraid of going back to doctors for all the reasons you have mentioned, but I don't think any suggestions given on this forum or benzos forums will be useful if you don't have a doctor's support. What do you think you can do? Change medications based on someone's opinion? This is dangerous.
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And don't worry about polluting the environment with synthetic progestins. You will excrete their metabolites. Natural progesterone and estradiol metabolites can be dangerous as well.
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No, you don't need to be worried. You're just having the normal reaction of someone who is on a health anxiety loop.
If you post a link to this benzo forum I can tell you if their scientific background is enough to counteract their own emotional issues. I doubt it.
You don't need to tinker with trial and error, you just need to stop overthinking before you actually do something to change your current situation, otherwise you will have only one option: wait and hope the bleeding will stop.
You don't need to stop Utro. You will keep taking it orally to provide enough allopregnanolone to your GABA receptors. All you need is to discuss with your doctors which progestogen you could add for endometrial safety. I can suggest some, based on scientific data, but unfortunately, science is not miraculous, each woman can have different side effects, that's why it's trial and error.
I'm confused. You took Utro sequentially and didn't bleed? You're supposed to bleed on a sequential regime.
The fact that you're on less Valium is good, but this is not preventing the bleeding which is your current issue, so if you're not having any violent meltdowns now, it means you're stable. If you stop vaginal Utro you could relapse, so I understand your situation and this is a risk, but you have to do it under medical supervision. There's medication available to stop withdrawal symptoms.
Long term continuous exogenous progesterone is not a natural occurrence. The body produces progesterone in pulses when ovaries are cycling. After menopause, progesterone levels decline and remain very low. Utrogestan was designed for luteal support during pregnancy. It's taken at high amounts but once pregnancy is successful, women will stop taking it. The effects of continuous high levels of progesterone on the regulation of steroid receptors or brain chemistry are not known. You want to know what is going to happen, but this is simply not the case. We don't know, that's why it's trial and error, but with great probability of success if it's done under medical supervision.
I understand you are afraid of going back to doctors for all the reasons you have mentioned, but I don't think any suggestions given on this forum or benzos forums will be useful if you don't have a doctor's support. What do you think you can do? Change medications based on someone's opinion? This is dangerous.
Hi Uptick, I really appreciate you getting back to me. I forgot to say that Levonorgestrel can decrease allopregnanolone levels, you are right, that is why I went nuts when I didnt take utro daily, as allopreg is a cross tolerant to Benzos.
The bleeding did stop for a few months, then it came back, stopped and came back, today, nice small black clots and red on tissue. Sorry for the graphic description.
This is it, I cannot afford to tinker with trial and error regarding progestins. I broke a computer, I smashed a glass door by head butting it, and many other things.
Too much of a safety risk.
Increasing the oral dose will be like increasing valium. Progesterone may increase blood plasma levels of diazepam. https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/352/smpc#gref
Synthetic progestins are hazardous to aquatic life
When I took utro sequentially I did have scheduled bleeds, but that's normal isn't it? 200mg a day and a twelve day break.
I only started taking it conti when I went nuts, didnt see doc so took 100mg daily without the 12 day break.
I have a lot of non medical problems, the meltdowns are suspected autism, I have an autism assessment scheduled for 13th October. Had them all my life, my arms are butchered because I bite them, before my current non medical worries of the last few years I used to bite them but not tear the flesh.
I never used to headband until my head bled.
I've had medication before, lots of it, had meltdowns on that, turned me into a zombie.
This is what scares me about brain damage
{quote}The effects of continuous high levels of progesterone on the regulation of steroid receptors or brain chemistry are not known. You want to know what is going to happen, but this is simply not the case. We don't know, that's why it's trial and error, but with great probability of success if it's done under medical supervision.[/quote]
I don't know what I should do, the doctors are clueless.
Here are the links from the benzo site you asked about. Thanks for looking at them, there is lots of info.
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=47259.0
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=44150.0
I can add more but there is lots of info, for you to be going on with.
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And don't worry about polluting the environment with synthetic progestins. You will excrete their metabolites. Natural progesterone and estradiol metabolites can be dangerous as well.
I didnt know natural progesterone is a pollutant and natural oestrogen.
I can't change progestin as I will go nuts due to the alteration to my GABA, the levonorgestrel affect on allo.
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I didnt know natural progesterone is a pollutant and natural oestrogen.
I can't change progestin as I will go nuts due to the alteration to my GABA, the levonorgestrel affect on allo.
They're not. You have said the word 'pollute'. I was just quoting you. 'Also, I don't want to pollute the environment with synthetics, they would alter my GABA and effectively derail it.' By the way, Utrogestan and estradiol in patches and gels are not derived from plants, as many people believe, all hormones are now produced by microorganisms, using estrone obtained from China (so who knows where it came from). They're all semi-synthetic.
What do you mean by 'derail' GABA? Were you 'nuts' before you took Utrogestan?
I didn't say you have to increase the oral dose... I said continue to take Utro 100 mg.
You should be concerned with your mental health and this continuous bleeding. By taking synthetic progestins you won't be damaging aquatic life beyond what's already happening...
Yes, scheduled bleed is normal on sequential Utro, but you've said you had 'no bleed', that's why I've asked.
I'm sorry you had so many issues, you clearly need medication besides HRT, your symptoms are not just from hormonal imbalance, but the bleeding probably is, that's what I'm trying to address here, since this is your current concern.
Thanks for the links!
I guess you have already decided that:
1. you can't change your Utro regime (which by the way is very unusual), because you are convinced (although not even neuroscientists can vouch for it) that any change will affect your GABA receptors and you will have horrible symptoms;
2. you hope that the bleeding will stop on its own;
3. you won't be going to the doctors.
So how can anyone here (or on the benzo forum) help you?
Sorry for being thick, but I can't understand what do you expect?
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I didnt know natural progesterone is a pollutant and natural oestrogen.
I can't change progestin as I will go nuts due to the alteration to my GABA, the levonorgestrel affect on allo.
They're not. You have said the word 'pollute'. I was just quoting you. 'Also, I don't want to pollute the environment with synthetics, they would alter my GABA and effectively derail it.' By the way, Utrogestan and estradiol in patches and gels are not derived from plants, as many people believe, all hormones are now produced by microorganisms, using estrone obtained from China (so who knows where it came from). They're all semi-synthetic.
What do you mean by 'derail' GABA? Were you 'nuts' before you took Utrogestan?
I didn't say you have to increase the oral dose... I said continue to take Utro 100 mg.
You should be concerned with your mental health and this continuous bleeding. By taking synthetic progestins you won't be damaging aquatic life beyond what's already happening...
Yes, scheduled bleed is normal on sequential Utro, but you've said you had 'no bleed', that's why I've asked.
I'm sorry you had so many issues, you clearly need medication besides HRT, your symptoms are not just from hormonal imbalance, but the bleeding probably is, that's what I'm trying to address here, since this is your current concern.
Thanks for the links!
I guess you have already decided that:
1. you can't change your Utro regime (which by the way is very unusual), because you are convinced (although not even neuroscientists can vouch for it) that any change will affect your GABA receptors and you will have horrible symptoms;
2. you hope that the bleeding will stop on its own;
3. you won't be going to the doctors.
So how can anyone here (or on the benzo forum) help you?
Sorry for being thick, but I can't understand what do you expect?
Hi Uptick and thanks for your reply
Sorry I forgot to mention to you, my breasts have been tender while I have been bleeding like they used to be when I was menstrusting pre menopause and pre peri. Should have said that earlier.
I am sorry I struggle with words, I have an autism assessment booked on 13th October to see if I am autistic.
I meant that excreted progestins cause problems with aquatic life. I am not sure if micronised progesterone does too.
Swapping my utrogestan for a synthetic would send me nuts because it would alter my gaba, especially levonorgestrel due to its effect on progesterones metabolite alloprnanolone.
By the way, Utrogestan and estradiol in patches and gels are not derived from plants, as many people believe, all hormones are now produced by microorganisms, using estrone obtained from China (so who knows where it came from). They're all semi-synthetic.
So we are being lied to?
Why are they called bio identical if they are semi-synthetic?
Where can I find info on this, info I can understand?
Everything seems to come from China, look at coronavirus.
By 'derail' GABA? I mean how mental I went on there 12 days I was not taking the oral 200mg utro when addicted to valium. Rages etc. The change in my mental health when I started taking it daily was noted by my psych nurse who said I was more stable.
I didn't say you have to increase the oral dose... I said continue to take Utro 100 mg.
I will continue to take the oral utro, but that was not enough, that's what started the bleeds, and that was why the vaginal 100mg was added.
You should be concerned with your mental health and this continuous bleeding. By taking synthetic progestins you won't be damaging aquatic life beyond what's already happening...
I am concerned with my mental health but I cannot remove the non medical serious stressors that are affecting it.
I do want the bleeding to stop but I cannot alter the progesterone, as it will derail GABA and send me mental with rages as explained above. I wonder if I should reduce the gel from 50mcg to 25mcg I wont do this right now.
Yes, scheduled bleed is normal on sequential Utro, but you've said you had 'no bleed', that's why I've asked.
Yeah I was normally bleeding on sequential Utro back in peri, I only had no bleed for the first six months when I started taking the utro 100mg oral daily, then random bleeds after that. Sorry if I Was unclear.
I'm sorry you had so many issues, you clearly need medication besides HRT, your symptoms are not just from hormonal imbalance, but the bleeding probably is, that's what I'm trying to address here, since this is your current concern.
What type of medication? I have tried all different sorts of antidepressants even antipsychotics at low dose for anxiety, psych knows I am not psychotic, they all had bad effects.
You are welcome about the links, when you have had chance I would love to know what you think.
It's not that I am being stubborn, I cannot change utro regime because of the allopregnanalone metabolite being cross tolerant with valium and sending me into rages and going mental.
Also the links have information in them about horrible symptoms from women. The first post and other posts are from a knowledgeable woman.
I knew an American woman who was on 13mg prescribed bio identical progesterone cream, she reduced it to 11mg. She had been benzodiazepine dependent. She messaged me, then got incapacitated after she reduced it, so ill, she couldn't even message me. Other women on the benzo forum have had horrible experiences with progesterone.
I did have horrible rage meltdowns when addicted to valium on the sequential regime, these rages came when I was not taking the utrogestan, so I have experienced them myself and they are a safety risk, broken belongings, black and blue face, cut head through head butting things.
I just want the bleeding to go away, once its gone for more than a few months I will see the doctor.
The problem is too complex to go to the doctors, even if I write a bullet pointed note, it will be too long for them to read, they have commented before when I took long notes in about other issues.
If I knew how people could help me I would know what help I need and would ask for it, I don't mean to sound rude, just dunno how to word that sentence.
You are not thick, far from it. I look forward to hearing from you after reading the links.
I will be happy to provide any more information that you may require.
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I've just read the thread from that first link... exactly what I've thought. The articles are at least 8 years old and a lot of new information is available. The OP (I'm not registered and can't see their names) apparently has a scientific background but didn't reply to posts questioning the point of those links, which tell just one side of a very complex story. One member is/was on progesterone cream (compounded), another on estradiol/testosterone sublingual and another was using Prometrium (same as Utrogestan) on her legs!! Some of them had hysterectomy and are using progesterone to counteract 'estrogen dominance', which is a non-scientific notion that has spread like wildfire. Some posters are clearly on other drugs and they don't seem to think about normal drug interactions and just focus on cross tolerance and GABA receptors. One poster has posted a link to a study that contradicts this theory and there's no reply from the OP...
Off to read the other one, but I'm afraid it will just confirm that these discussions are dangerous, because there seems to be a lot of 'I did this, I felt that' and the ultimate truth is everyone is different regarding hormones and drugs.
No, we're not being lied to...They are identical to our own hormones, being bio or body identical has nothing to do with being 'natural', they are synthesised in manufacturing facilities, like all drugs. Wikipedia is an easy reading, it's all there.
I understand that Utrogestan had a sedative effect on you, but it happens to almost everyone who takes it, it's not necessarily due to 'derailing GABA' because you take Valium... I've become suicidal on Utro, that's why I've decided to stop HRT and research to know what's my best option. And I don't take any other drugs.
Maybe 100mg will be enough now you have been on prog for years... things change.
I don't think reducing the gel will stop the bleeding, but you can try, response to hormones is very individual.
Regarding medication or psychotherapy for anxiety issues, I know many women don't get relief from HRT so it's clear that other causes must be investigated.
I can't comment on other people's experience, because everyone is different. Many factors contribute to hormone imbalance (and I'm talking about all hormones, not just estradiol, prog and testo).
If you truly believe that progesterone cross tolerance with Valium is your real problem, the rational thing to do is to taper off progesterone. Unfortunately Utrogestan is not available in alternative doses, so the only way is to stop taking it vaginally.
You don't want your doctors to know that you're still having unscheduled bleeding because you are afraid they will change your HRT regime and you are absolutely certain this will affect your GABA receptors and you will go nuts. There's a lot of assumptions, but let's pretend you're absolutely right, what difference will it make if you stop bleeding and then go to the doctors? Are you going to have a hysteroscopy? Well, that's what you're going to have if you go now...
I think your only options, if you're really not sharing this with any doctor, is to wait for the bleeding to stop (how long? no idea) or decrease the gel, but you might end up having hot flushes and sweats again. So, what's the point? If you don't bleed but you also don't sleep your anxiety will ramp up.
I understand you are asking for help because you don't know what to do, but you have to admit you are imposing conditions that are hard for anyone with a conscience to agree with, refusing to share your symptoms with a doctor and assuming that they are absolutely useless regarding hormones and sedatives. You must be able to talk to a decent doctor, you could ask to have a video chat with a different doctor and blame it on Covid...
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I've just read the thread from that first link... exactly what I've thought. The articles are at least 8 years old and a lot of new information is available. The OP (I'm not registered and can't see their names) apparently has a scientific background but didn't reply to posts questioning the point of those links, which tell just one side of a very complex story. One member is/was on progesterone cream (compounded), another on estradiol/testosterone sublingual and another was using Prometrium (same as Utrogestan) on her legs!! Some of them had hysterectomy and are using progesterone to counteract 'estrogen dominance', which is a non-scientific notion that has spread like wildfire. Some posters are clearly on other drugs and they don't seem to think about normal drug interactions and just focus on cross tolerance and GABA receptors. One poster has posted a link to a study that contradicts this theory and there's no reply from the OP...
Off to read the other one, but I'm afraid it will just confirm that these discussions are dangerous, because there seems to be a lot of 'I did this, I felt that' and the ultimate truth is everyone is different regarding hormones and drugs.
No, we're not being lied to...They are identical to our own hormones, being bio or body identical has nothing to do with being 'natural', they are synthesised in manufacturing facilities, like all drugs. Wikipedia is an easy reading, it's all there.
I understand that Utrogestan had a sedative effect on you, but it happens to almost everyone who takes it, it's not necessarily due to 'derailing GABA' because you take Valium... I've become suicidal on Utro, that's why I've decided to stop HRT and research to know what's my best option. And I don't take any other drugs.
Maybe 100mg will be enough now you have been on prog for years... things change.
I don't think reducing the gel will stop the bleeding, but you can try, response to hormones is very individual.
Regarding medication or psychotherapy for anxiety issues, I know many women don't get relief from HRT so it's clear that other causes must be investigated.
I can't comment on other people's experience, because everyone is different. Many factors contribute to hormone imbalance (and I'm talking about all hormones, not just estradiol, prog and testo).
If you truly believe that progesterone cross tolerance with Valium is your real problem, the rational thing to do is to taper off progesterone. Unfortunately Utrogestan is not available in alternative doses, so the only way is to stop taking it vaginally.
You don't want your doctors to know that you're still having unscheduled bleeding because you are afraid they will change your HRT regime and you are absolutely certain this will affect your GABA receptors and you will go nuts. There's a lot of assumptions, but let's pretend you're absolutely right, what difference will it make if you stop bleeding and then go to the doctors? Are you going to have a hysteroscopy? Well, that's what you're going to have if you go now...
I think your only options, if you're really not sharing this with any doctor, is to wait for the bleeding to stop (how long? no idea) or decrease the gel, but you might end up having hot flushes and sweats again. So, what's the point? If you don't bleed but you also don't sleep your anxiety will ramp up.
I understand you are asking for help because you don't know what to do, but you have to admit you are imposing conditions that are hard for anyone with a conscience to agree with, refusing to share your symptoms with a doctor and assuming that they are absolutely useless regarding hormones and sedatives. You must be able to talk to a decent doctor, you could ask to have a video chat with a different doctor and blame it on Covid...
Hi Uptick
Can't say how much I appreciate your replies. I have a lot of questions and put them in bold for your convenience, the non bolded text is relevant facts I hope will help inform you of my concerns and situation.
I've just read the thread from that first link... exactly what I've thought. The articles are at least 8 years old and a lot of new information is available. The OP (I'm not registered and can't see their names) apparently has a scientific background but didn't reply to posts questioning the point of those links, which tell just one side of a very complex story.
I didn't send you all the threads, OP was rushed to hospital, I don't know if that is in the thread you sent. Doctors were baffled. She talks about HPA axis and all sorts, but that might not be in the thread as I just posted you links, I read them a few years ago.
The lady I met on there who messaged me, who cut her prescribed bio identical cream was not on any other drugs. She was too ill to message me again.
I can post other links of women who have been made very ill. Women who have never been benzo dependent can come off progesterone with no problems, but women who have been dependent on Benzes cannot due to the cross tolerance with the allopregnanolone.
I used to know a woman who could not taper and couldn't figure out why, she later found out that it was due to her combi birth control pill, containing both oestrogen and progesterone.
I don't think there is such a thing as oestrogen dominance.
Some posters are clearly on other drugs and they don't seem to think about normal drug interactions and just focus on cross tolerance and GABA receptors. One poster has posted a link to a study that contradicts this theory and there's no reply from the OP...Sorry I only sent you two links, I didn't know how you were for time, the OP has posted more.
No, we're not being lied to...They are identical to our own hormones, being bio or body identical has nothing to do with being 'natural', they are synthesised in manufacturing facilities, like all drugs.
It's because you said semi-synthetic that made me think they were not natural. Are they still hazardous to aquatic life?
I know Utrogestan sedation happens to everyone. I was poor at wording my post. I don't think my existing dose is derailing my GABA (e.g. sending me mental like when I had rages on the days I wasn't taking it while on sequins)
The valium just complicates things because it is cross tolerant to the allopregnanolone.
I am so sorry to hear you became suicidal on utro, it gave me no problems until six months after I decided to take it daily.
Maybe 100mg will be enough now you have been on prog for years... things change.
You know more than me, but the gynaecologist added the extra utro to stop the bleeding, I thought utro or prog stopped bleeding.
Why am I getting tender breasts just like when I was having periods before peri? This must be hormonal?
I don't think reducing the gel will stop the bleeding, but you can try, response to hormones is very individual.
Why don't you think the bleeding will stop? I mean no disrespect, it's just that my GP reduced my patch from 100mcg to 75mcg to stop it, it worked for a few months.
I've had allsorts of antidepressants and they are just toxic, they all have bad side effects and their own withdrawal symptoms. I smashed my head with a thick glass when I came off trazodone and that was tapering it and not cold turkey.
The rational thing to do is to taper off progesterone. How do I do that with capsules? Also without it, the oestrogen will not be opposed. You have to taper off Benzodiazepines in tiny doses, cutting the vaginal will be like taking off a big dose of valium. Elisabeth Vliet an expert on these things says progesterone is like klonopin a much stronger pill than valium.
You don't want your doctors to know that you're still having unscheduled bleeding because you are afraid they will change your HRT regime and you are absolutely certain this will affect your GABA receptors and you will go nuts.
The evidence is that when I was addicted to valium I did start to go nuts, head butting things, breaking things when I had my break from sequi progesterone.
There's a lot of assumptions, but let's pretend you're absolutely right, what difference will it make if you stop bleeding and then go to the doctors? Are you going to have a hysteroscopy? Well, that's what you're going to have if you go now...
I already had a hysteroscopy in January 2019 and they found nothing.
Won't they give me a trans vaginal ultrasound scan?
I think your only options, if you're really not sharing this with any doctor, is to wait for the bleeding to stop (how long? no idea) or decrease the gel, but you might end up having hot flushes and sweats again. So, what's the point? If you don't bleed but you also don't sleep your anxiety will ramp up.
I wish I had the courage to go to the doctor, but what doctor will have the time to read the long and complex note with bullet points that I will have to give them?
Sorry I am confused, why will I not sleep if the bleeding stops?
Sorry for all of the questions.
Thanks again and sorry the prog made you suicidal.
I never had Pre menstrual syndrome when I was young, just the odd painful period as a teen.
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Hello again, sorry for not quoting you, am on iPhone, hard to type on a little screen.
Most drugs are hazardous to aquatic (and general) life. Progestins contribution in HRT products is minimal compared to contraceptives (huge doses).
Tender breasts might be from too much estradiol. I think you are going through the menopause transition, your ovaries are still functioning, albeit erratically, and this might be contributing to the bleeding and tender breasts.
I never said the bleeding won't stop, because there's no way of knowing that with certainty. Anything can happen. If you decide to decrease the patch dose it might stop the bleeding, but if hot flushes and sweats return you will be back to square one.
You have said your doctor doesn't think transvaginal US scan is reliable for endometrial measurement, so I think they will probably perform a hysteroscopy.
If your doctors don't have time to read a patient's medical history you can complain about them to the NHS.
It's not lack of bleeding that will disrupt your sleep, it's returning hot flushes and sweats from decreasing the dose of estradiol. Just a thought, maybe you don't need a high dose of estradiol anyway, because I think you're not postmenopausal yet, you're still producing your own oestrogen.
I've never had PMS either, my own progesterone didn't cause me any problems, Utrogestan did. I think the continuous dose is the problem.
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Hello again, sorry for not quoting you, am on iPhone, hard to type on a little screen.
Most drugs are hazardous to aquatic (and general) life. Progestins contribution in HRT products is minimal compared to contraceptives (huge doses).
Tender breasts might be from too much estradiol. I think you are going through the menopause transition, your ovaries are still functioning, albeit erratically, and this might be contributing to the bleeding and tender breasts.
I never said the bleeding won't stop, because there's no way of knowing that with certainty. Anything can happen. If you decide to decrease the patch dose it might stop the bleeding, but if hot flushes and sweats return you will be back to square one.
You have said your doctor doesn't think transvaginal US scan is reliable for endometrial measurement, so I think they will probably perform a hysteroscopy.
If your doctors don't have time to read a patient's medical history you can complain about them to the NHS.
It's not lack of bleeding that will disrupt your sleep, it's returning hot flushes and sweats from decreasing the dose of estradiol. Just a thought, maybe you don't need a high dose of estradiol anyway, because I think you're not postmenopausal yet, you're still producing your own oestrogen.
I've never had PMS either, my own progesterone didn't cause me any problems, Utrogestan did. I think the continuous dose is the problem.
Hi Uptick
Most drugs are hazardous to aquatic (and general) life. Progestins contribution in HRT products is minimal compared to contraceptives (huge doses).
Oh no, I believe in Karma, I am polluting and messing up lots of little aquatic creatures with my valium and all of the other toxins I have taken.
I forgot, I meant to ask you a question from your previous post
You have changed sequential to continuous regime, you have changed oral to vaginal and now you're having both routes. Many things have changed, and time is also a factor when considering the effect of continuous exogenous progesterone, not only progesterone receptors but also oestrogen receptors can be up or down-regulated.
When you say time is a factor, does that spell bad news for me in any way?
I'm worried I've messed up my CNS and endocrine system.
I see that you say tender breasts are from too much estradiol, I had a bad night sweat last night, I am not doubting you but am confused, as sweats mean not enough eostraiol?
I'm 54 years old, isn't 54 classed as post meno?
I take gel now not patches, sorry for not being clear on this.
They already performed a hysteroscopy in January 2019 and found nothing. I don't understand why TVU scans are unreliable.
I hear you when you say the conintuous dose is the problem, but any breaks in progesterone will be akin to missing large doses of valium and put me at risk of head butting things again, head injury, breaking things, etc.
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No, what I meant by time is a factor is that our response to hormones can change over time because the body tries to adjust itself to the new hormonal internal environment. Same thing applies to many drugs, including benzos, this is what happens in tolerance state.
Tender breasts are a well known side effect of estradiol. In fact, that's why women have boobs in the first place. Your sweats might be from a different source, including benzo tapering. Hot flushes are more typical of low estradiol levels. Sweats occur in many different conditions.
We've already discussed this, age is not a good thing to define menopause, 54 is just an average age. You can be perimenopausal at 54.
I don't know why your doctor said TVS is unreliable, but if she thinks so she won't give you one, right?
I know you can't take Utro sequentially. I wouldn't either. The fluctuations can be bad if you're sensitive to them. Even if you had no problems when you were still cycling that doesn't mean you won't react to them now. I guess that's why menopause is called 'The Change'. On the other hand, taking it continuously have its own issues. There's no easy way out of it.
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No, what I meant by time is a factor is that our response to hormones can change over time because the body tries to adjust itself to the new hormonal internal environment. Same thing applies to many drugs, including benzos, this is what happens in tolerance state.
Tender breasts are a well known side effect of estradiol. In fact, that's why women have boobs in the first place. Your sweats might be from a different source, including benzo tapering. Hot flushes are more typical of low estradiol levels. Sweats occur in many different conditions.
We've already discussed this, age is not a good thing to define menopause, 54 is just an average age. You can be perimenopausal at 54.
I don't know why your doctor said TVS is unreliable, but if she thinks so she won't give you one, right?
I know you can't take Utro sequentially. I wouldn't either. The fluctuations can be bad if you're sensitive to them. Even if you had no problems when you were still cycling that doesn't mean you won't react to them now. I guess that's why menopause is called 'The Change'. On the other hand, taking it continuously have its own issues. There's no easy way out of it.
Hi Uptick
As a microbiologist you seem very knowledgeable about pharmacology, is it part of your training?
It's all very worrying, mucking about with valium and progesterone
messing up my nervous system
Thanks for explaining the time thing.
The sweats increased each time I reduced my gel.
I thought I wouldn't need the fan on last night as windows were open it wasn't so warm but woke up with upper body sweaty.
With Benzes, you sweat all over your body.
I see, yes, we did discuss the age thing, sorry, so did Sage.
Can a GP refuse to send me for TUV if I am bleeding, what is the point of putting a woman though a painful hysteroscopy like me with a stenosed crevix.
When you say taking it coninuously has it's own issues, what do you mean, not just for me but what other women have had problems taking it conti?
I was fine for 6 months on daily prog, Dr Currie and my Gynae said its ok.
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The GP told me that transvaginal ultrasounds are no longer reliable in determining womb lining thickness. when you mentioned this previously you were advised to change your GP :-\
Peri-menopause are the years prior to the cessation of monthly periods. These months/years can throw up all kinds of weird symptoms and may increase depression and anxiety. One expects to have less and less monthly bleeds: which can be bright red, pale pink, brown ...... and some have hot flushes. Not everyone has the latter, I had cold flushes for 3 months with itchy skin at night.
Menopause: Literally the last monthly bleed. We often don't know when our last period happened until 12-15 months afterwards. I didn't realise until at least 12 months after mine had stopped. Some symptoms; flushes, dry skin etc.; may continue as the ovaries can keep giving out spurts of oestrogen. Fortuanately I had no problems other than vaginal atrophy once I had stopped regular periods.
Girls can be in menopause from age 11 - some have 1/2 periods then nowt, others don't bleed. Ever. There is a mean age of 54 but some ladies have 'early' menopause from about 34 years, others still bleed into their 60s. Each lady is an individual. It is unlikely that any anti depressant or anti anxiety medication will have any contra indication with HRT.
It's The Change - does what it says on the tin ;-)
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The GP told me that transvaginal ultrasounds are no longer reliable in determining womb lining thickness. when you mentioned this previously you were advised to change your GP :-\
Peri-menopause are the years prior to the cessation of monthly periods. These months/years can throw up all kinds of weird symptoms and may increase depression and anxiety. One expects to have less and less monthly bleeds: which can be bright red, pale pink, brown ...... and some have hot flushes. Not everyone has the latter, I had cold flushes for 3 months with itchy skin at night.
Menopause: Literally the last monthly bleed. We often don't know when our last period happened until 12-15 months afterwards. I didn't realise until at least 12 months after mine had stopped. Some symptoms; flushes, dry skin etc.; may continue as the ovaries can keep giving out spurts of oestrogen. Fortuanately I had no problems other than vaginal atrophy once I had stopped regular periods.
Girls can be in menopause from age 11 - some have 1/2 periods then nowt, others don't bleed. Ever. There is a mean age of 54 but some ladies have 'early' menopause from about 34 years, others still bleed into their 60s. Each lady is an individual. It is unlikely that any anti depressant or anti anxiety medication will have any contra indication with HRT.
It's The Change - does what it says on the tin ;-)
Hi CKLD
The GP told me that transvaginal ultrasounds are no longer reliable in determining womb lining thickness. when you mentioned this previously you were advised to change your GP :-\In our surgery we don't get one GP we just ring and see whoever is available.
Dr Currie had never heard that TVU's are unreliable.
I'm not worried about contra-indications with AD's and HRT I have tried loads of them, they have bad side effects and are a beggar to come off, I smashed a glass on my head after weaning slowly off one. They feel toxic.
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I think it's the same in most surgeries. Unless 1 is prepared to wait 2-3 weeks for the GP of choice which I do as I plan well ahead. In an emergency or for non-specific problems, I see who is on or talk to the Pharmacist attached to the Surgerical Team.
If Dr Currie hasn't heard that scans are unreliable, why trust a GP - they are after all General Practitioners for a reason ::)
Which symptom do you need to solve first ? I take anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications and have never been advised that HRT is contra-indicative. It's itchiness that aggravates my skin the most but my GP noticed the VA symptoms and prescribed accordingly. As long as I keep up with regular treatment, that is in the main, sorted :-)
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I think it's the same in most surgeries. Unless 1 is prepared to wait 2-3 weeks for the GP of choice which I do as I plan well ahead. In an emergency or for non-specific problems, I see who is on or talk to the Pharmacist attached to the Surgerical Team.
If Dr Currie hasn't heard that scans are unreliable, why trust a GP - they are after all General Practitioners for a reason ::)
Which symptom do you need to solve first ? I take anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications and have never been advised that HRT is contra-indicative. It's itchiness that aggravates my skin the most but my GP noticed the VA symptoms and prescribed accordingly. As long as I keep up with regular treatment, that is in the main, sorted :-)
Hi it's not an emergency thankfully.
Yeah re GP, I take you point, I dunno where GP got her information that TUV's are unreliable for womb thickness.
In any case, as I am bleeding, I should think the bleeding would be thinning my womb lining.
What symptoms do I need to solve first, the bleeding.
I am weaning off the valium, so hopefully that will go ok.
Non addictive AD and AA drugs are not contra-indicated, uptick posted from the utro medical information sheet that valium can cause unscheduled bleeding.
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No, I had only a brief training in pharmacology, menopause has been my drive for doing more research in this area, because I'm hypersensitive to drugs (and light, noise, smell, weather changes, pollens, dust mites, etc) and have reacted badly on my first attempt on HRT.
If you think the sweats are definitely linked to reducing estradiol I think it confirms that you're having fluctuations, otherwise you'd be having sweats all the time. Just a thought, have you been on Oestrogel, Oestrodose or both?
I don't think a GP can refuse to send you for a TVS but she or he could argue that multiple bleeding events have to be addressed by hysteroscopy and probably a biopsy. If you have anxiety issues you have the right to ask for a GA.
I think many women do well on continuous Utrogestan but they probably don't post on forums like this. I know many who have a hell of a time on conti Utro and had to stop it or go sequential, but everyone reacts in a different way.
Are you going to send me more links to the benzo forum?
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No, I had only a brief training on pharmacology, menopause has been my drive for doing more research in this area, because I'm hypersensitive to drugs (and light, noise, smell, weather changes, pollens, dust mites, etc) and have reacted badly on my first attempt on HRT.
If you think the sweats are definitely linked to reducing estradiol I think it confirms that you're having fluctuations, otherwise you'd be having sweats all the time. Just a thought, have you been on Oestrogel, Oestrodose or both?
I don't think a GP can refuse to send you for a TVS but she or he could argue that multiple bleeding events have to be addressed by hysteroscopy and probably a biopsy. If you have anxiety issues you have the right to ask for a GA.
I think many women do well on continuous Utrogestan but they probably don't post on forums like this. I know many who have a hell of a time on conti Utro and had to stop it or go sequential, but everyone reacts in a different way.
Hi Uptick
Thanks for giving me info re your training and knowledge gained.
Sorry to hear you are hypersensitive to things, I have sensory problems, loud noises bad smells, I am being tested for autism in October.
I need a fan on, now it's getting colder I put it on when it warms up, too cold at bedtime.
In summer, I sweated like a pig.
I got oestrodose prescribed but never wanted to use it so I have only used oestrogen bought privately at an MHRA authorised pharmacy.
I already had a hysteroscopy and biopsy in January 2019, thankfully found no problems.
I can't see how they would do a hysteroscopy awake with a stenosed crevix, the gynaecologist couldn't even get a thin implement thinner than a straw in.
Thanks for the info regarding conti/sequi.
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Sorry, I've edited my post. Are you going to send me more links to the benzo forum?
Yes I know you had a hysteroscopy in Jan 2019 but it's been a while and you're still bleeding, so a TVS wouldn't give them all the answers. If your cervix is almost closed you will be offered a GA.
Why are you buying Oestrogel privately?
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Sorry, I've edited my post. Are you going to send me more links to the benzo forum?
Yes I know you had a hysteroscopy in Jan 2019 but it's been a while and you're still bleeding, so a TVS wouldn't give them all the answers. If your cervix is almost closed you will be offered a GA.
Why are you buying Oestrogel privately?
I'm buying oestrogel privately as oestrodose is the only thing on offer here.
The pharmacy also switch brands without telling me, they did it with my valium.
I will send you more links to the benzo forum, but do you mind if I wait as I am currently really anxious, and trying to find something to ease the anxiety like movies or something? Thinking about this plus all of the other rubbish problems is just brimming my anxiety cup over the top.
Yeah, cervix really closed, gynaecologist couldn't get a mm thick implement in there, it was like this thick ll
I still would rather have a scan, I have nobody to take me to hospital and back for hysteroscopy or look after me afterwards.
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The question here is why did the Gynaecologist not offer a GA immediately for reassurance. I've never known a scheduled examination not to take place once the appt. has been arranged :-\
What does of Valium do you take and how often? It took me 9 weeks to wean off an Anti-depressant but 3 days to stop Valium when it didn't agree with me 8)
GP surgeries buy the cheapest product offered - it happens with my ADs often but I've never had any ill effects so stopped looking for any ::). Same with statins .......... as long as the main ingredient is the same and as long as the fillers don't affect me, then I'm good to go. Any ill effects from drugs since 1988 I have stopped taking within days.
Hopefully you will find a way through.
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Sorry, I've edited my post. Are you going to send me more links to the benzo forum?
Yes I know you had a hysteroscopy in Jan 2019 but it's been a while and you're still bleeding, so a TVS wouldn't give them all the answers. If your cervix is almost closed you will be offered a GA.
Why are you buying Oestrogel privately?
I'm buying oestrogel privately as oestrodose is the only thing on offer here.
The pharmacy also switch brands without telling me, they did it with my valium.
I will send you more links to the benzo forum, but do you mind if I wait as I am currently really anxious, and trying to find something to ease the anxiety like movies or something? Thinking about this plus all of the other rubbish problems is just brimming my anxiety cup over the top.
Yeah, cervix really closed, gynaecologist couldn't get a mm thick implement in there, it was like this thick ll
I still would rather have a scan, I have nobody to take me to hospital and back for hysteroscopy or look after me afterwards.
I see, poor thing, you don't need more stress. Yes, watching a good film is great for anxiety. Take your time, I have a lot of things to read, anyway.
See you tomorrow!
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If you don't have care at home the Consultant should keep you in overnight!
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The question here is why did the Gynaecologist not offer a GA immediately for reassurance. I've never known a scheduled examination not to take place once the appt. has been arranged :-\
What does of Valium do you take and how often? It took me 9 weeks to wean off an Anti-depressant but 3 days to stop Valium when it didn't agree with me 8)
GP surgeries buy the cheapest product offered - it happens with my ADs often but I've never had any ill effects so stopped looking for any ::). Same with statins .......... as long as the main ingredient is the same and as long as the fillers don't affect me, then I'm good to go. Any ill effects from drugs since 1988 I have stopped taking within days.
Hopefully you will find a way through.
It's not always straightforward with generic drugs, or even cheaper brands. Despite having the same active ingredients, if they come from different suppliers they can have traces of contaminants, not necessarily dangerous, but hypersensitive people will have reactions.
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Or ask you mum and sister? You have mentioned them on previous posts... anyway, have some rest now. I'm tired!
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Yep. They should't put fillers in ? talc springs to mind ::). Some people react to the fillers in VA treatments too.
We have a thread on noise ;-). Some find that allergies develop or become worse at The Change ........
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The question here is why did the Gynaecologist not offer a GA immediately for reassurance. I've never known a scheduled examination not to take place once the appt. has been arranged :-\
What does of Valium do you take and how often? It took me 9 weeks to wean off an Anti-depressant but 3 days to stop Valium when it didn't agree with me 8)
GP surgeries buy the cheapest product offered - it happens with my ADs often but I've never had any ill effects so stopped looking for any ::). Same with statins .......... as long as the main ingredient is the same and as long as the fillers don't affect me, then I'm good to go. Any ill effects from drugs since 1988 I have stopped taking within days.
Hopefully you will find a way through.
I did get a GA I requested it. Dunno if I still can with deterioration of NHS I read online that people have to pay privately. I'm certainly not having someone stretch my chuff without.
I'm down to 24mgs valium now, over two thirds of my original dose.
You'd think that although valium causes unscheduled bleeding, as I am on less the bleeding should let up.
I dose twice a day. I've been on it years.
I don't do AD's had too many toxic experiences from them.
Thanks for your message of hope x
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There's always hope 8)
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There's always hope 8)
xx
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I've written to Dr Currie-just written today so reply will be soon.
Bleeding still going on.
Got a sore vagina also, which has gone on a while.
Cant be VA as blood is wetting the vag.
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Hi Dandelion, how's everything? Hope the bleeding has stopped.
I have been reading about cross tolerance and as I suspected it's not just progesterone that has GABAergic modulation properties. Estradiol also interferes with GABA receptors.
This article is interesting because it shows that estradiol can interfere with neurons by altering responses to GABA receptors, but more importantly, this interaction can happen in both ways, negative and positive feedback, dependent on the time of day, am v pm.
It's a very complex subject and it's been studied in mice, which can be genetically modified, but it's a solid evidence that it's not just progesterone that has a modulating effect on GABA A receptors. The evidence is that the authors used Diazepam to manipulate GABA A receptors apparent affinity. ' We use the term apparent affinity to describe the effect of diazepam on GABAARs because the detailed mechanisms of action of diazepam remain elusive, and the traditional mechanism of diazepam increasing “receptor affinity” may not be the only consequence of activation of the benzodiazepine site.'
The bottom line is that you don't need to be focused on progesterone levels, it's more important to keep both estradiol and progesterone in balance, which is a huge task, but I think you can achieve that by slowly tweaking the doses. It's also interesting that you can switch the time when you apply estradiol gel to see if ot makes a difference to irregular bleeding, because it's clear that estradiol can have different activity in the brain depending on the time of day. 'In both kisspeptin neuron populations from OVX mice, the frequency of GABAergic spontaneous postsynaptic currents was increased in the PM; this increase was blunted by estradiol.'
When do you apply the gel?
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Hi Dandelion, how's everything? Hope the bleeding has stopped.
I have been reading about cross tolerance and as I suspected it's not just progesterone that has GABAergic modulation properties. Estradiol also interferes with GABA receptors.
This article is interesting because it shows that estradiol can interfere with neurons by altering responses to GABA receptors, but more importantly, this interaction can happen in both ways, negative and positive feedback, dependent on the time of day, am v pm.
It's a very complex subject and it's been studied in mice, which can be genetically modified, but it's a solid evidence that it's not just progesterone that has a modulating effect on GABA A receptors. The evidence is that the authors used Diazepam to manipulate GABA A receptors apparent affinity. ' We use the term apparent affinity to describe the effect of diazepam on GABAARs because the detailed mechanisms of action of diazepam remain elusive, and the traditional mechanism of diazepam increasing “receptor affinity” may not be the only consequence of activation of the benzodiazepine site.'
The bottom line is that you don't need to be focused on progesterone levels, it's more important to keep both estradiol and progesterone in balance, which is a huge task, but I think you can achieve that by slowly tweaking the doses. It's also interesting that you can switch the time when you apply estradiol gel to see if ot makes a difference to irregular bleeding, because it's clear that estradiol can have different activity in the brain depending on the time of day. 'In both kisspeptin neuron populations from OVX mice, the frequency of GABAergic spontaneous postsynaptic currents was increased in the PM; this increase was blunted by estradiol.'
When do you apply the gel?
Hi Uptick thanks for your post.
I thought the bleeding had stopped but it has come back.
I have been reading about cross tolerance and as I suspected it's not just progesterone that has GABAergic modulation properties. Estradiol also interferes with GABA receptors.
Now I am worried, more so.
Reading articles just puts the sh1ts up me because a woman nearly died coming off progesterone.
Luckily she did her research and was able to tell doctors about HPA axis etc, and they saved her, I know I still haven't sent those benzo forum links, I've had too much on.
More worries that are non medical, it's like problems are piling up, problems I cannot find a solution to, problems that may negatively affect a lot of innocent people, :) no I haven't killed or fought anyone.
It's a very complex subject and it's been studied in mice, which can be genetically modified, but it's a solid evidence that it's not just progesterone that has a modulating effect on GABA A receptors. The evidence is that the authors used Diazepam to manipulate GABA A receptors apparent affinity. ' We use the term apparent affinity to describe the effect of diazepam on GABAARs because the detailed mechanisms of action of diazepam remain elusive, and the traditional mechanism of diazepam increasing “receptor affinity” may not be the only consequence of activation of the benzodiazepine site.'
So, does this basically mean that I am stuffed?
It's hard to keep both estradiol and progesterone in balance, as I don't even know if my body is absorbing progesterone.
Hurduty seemed to imply on the utrogestan aborption thread that it comes in set doses, I am on the max.
I apply my gel between 7pm and 8pm on a night as that is when I bathe/wash.
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I know you are a chronic worrier, that's why I haven't posted the link to the article.
You don't need to worry (more than you already are), it's good news. It means progesterone is not a monster drug that will send you off the rails if any change in dose is necessary, and I have already pointed out that this woman's experience as well as other reports you have read on the benzo forum can't be taken as gospel, each person is different and compounded prog cream is not the same as vaginal/oral prog. You can't base your own health on their very specific experiences, let alone trust everything you read when people are clearly distressed and have other issues that could be contributing to their mental health state. They're not scientists (although one of them has a scientific background), and even if they were, scientists have just a scrap of information on how these interactions occur, so anyone telling you they know exactly what is happening is lying. I have called Besins and they have refused to say what is the source of the information on the PIL regarding Diazepam and Utrogestan interacting to cause irregular bleeding. I suspect they don't know.
You can try using the gel AM to avoid that 'blunt' PM effect. You wake up, have a bath, wait until your skin is cooler and then apply the gel.
Of course your body is absorbing progesterone. There's no reason why it shouldn't be. And you won't have to up Utrogestan dose. I don't know why you are worrying about this. Set doses? What do you mean? Women on luteal support take up to 600mg of Utrogestan, if not more. Not that I think you need to increase the dose.
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I know you are a chronic worrier, that's why I haven't posted the link to the article.
You don't need to worry (more than you already are), it's good news. It means progesterone is not a monster drug that will send you off the rails if any change in dose is necessary, and I have already pointed out that this woman's experience as well as other reports you have read on the benzo forum can't be taken as gospel, each person is different and compounded prog cream is not the same as vaginal/oral prog. You can't base your own health on their very specific experiences, let alone trust everything you read when people are clearly distressed and have other issues that could be contributing to their mental health state. They're not scientists (although one of them has a scientific background), and even if they were, scientists have just a scrap of information on how these interactions occur, so anyone telling you they know exactly what is happening is lying. I have called Besins and they have refused to say what is the source of the information on the PIL regarding Diazepam and Utrogestan interacting to cause irregular bleeding. I suspect they don't know.
You can try using the gel AM to avoid that 'blunt' PM effect. You wake up, have a bath, wait until your skin is cooler and then apply the gel.
Of course your body is absorbing progesterone. There's no reason why it shouldn't be. And you won't have to up Utrogestan dose. I don't know why you are worrying about this. Set doses? What do you mean? Women on luteal support take up to 600mg of Utrogestan, if not more. Not that I think you need to increase the dose.
I can't remember what type of prog the woman rushed to hospital was on, she isn't the same woman who took the cream.
The woman who was rushed to hospital was the woman with all of the scientific knowledge.
There's loads of women on benzo forums who have been laid flat with progesterone changes and withdrawal.
When I said set dose I may have misunderstood Hurdity but I thought no more than 200mg is allowed for meno woman.
Yeah Besins wont be able to give info.
The unknown unknowns are what I am not prepared to toy with, if experts don't know, I don't want to mess with them.
I have meltdowns where I have banged my head on the wall and left blood splats, my safety is at serious risk.
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I know you are a chronic worrier, that's why I haven't posted the link to the article.
You don't need to worry (more than you already are), it's good news. It means progesterone is not a monster drug that will send you off the rails if any change in dose is necessary, and I have already pointed out that this woman's experience as well as other reports you have read on the benzo forum can't be taken as gospel, each person is different and compounded prog cream is not the same as vaginal/oral prog. You can't base your own health on their very specific experiences, let alone trust everything you read when people are clearly distressed and have other issues that could be contributing to their mental health state. They're not scientists (although one of them has a scientific background), and even if they were, scientists have just a scrap of information on how these interactions occur, so anyone telling you they know exactly what is happening is lying. I have called Besins and they have refused to say what is the source of the information on the PIL regarding Diazepam and Utrogestan interacting to cause irregular bleeding. I suspect they don't know.
You can try using the gel AM to avoid that 'blunt' PM effect. You wake up, have a bath, wait until your skin is cooler and then apply the gel.
Of course your body is absorbing progesterone. There's no reason why it shouldn't be. And you won't have to up Utrogestan dose. I don't know why you are worrying about this. Set doses? What do you mean? Women on luteal support take up to 600mg of Utrogestan, if not more. Not that I think you need to increase the dose.
I can't remember what type of prog the woman rushed to hospital was on, she isn't the same woman who took the cream.
The woman who was rushed to hospital was the woman with all of the scientific knowledge.
There's loads of women on benzo forums who have been laid flat with progesterone changes and withdrawal.
When I said set dose I may have misunderstood Hurdity but I thought no more than 200mg is allowed for meno woman.
Yeah Besins wont be able to give info.
The unknown unknowns are what I am not prepared to toy with, if experts don't know, I don't want to mess with them.
I have meltdowns where I have banged my head on the wall and left blood splats, my safety is at serious risk.
That particular woman have not posted on the forum for ages, so you don't know what exactly has happened to her. Forget about it.
If you need to change prog dose you would have to do the same thing as you're doing with Valium, but since Utrogestan is not available in different doses (other than 200 and 100 mg) you have to tweak estradiol dose or, as I have mentioned above, change PM to AM application, to see if it helps with irregular bleeding.
I'm still waiting for Besins to call me back (or email me), I don't take no for an answer.
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I know you are a chronic worrier, that's why I haven't posted the link to the article.
You don't need to worry (more than you already are), it's good news. It means progesterone is not a monster drug that will send you off the rails if any change in dose is necessary, and I have already pointed out that this woman's experience as well as other reports you have read on the benzo forum can't be taken as gospel, each person is different and compounded prog cream is not the same as vaginal/oral prog. You can't base your own health on their very specific experiences, let alone trust everything you read when people are clearly distressed and have other issues that could be contributing to their mental health state. They're not scientists (although one of them has a scientific background), and even if they were, scientists have just a scrap of information on how these interactions occur, so anyone telling you they know exactly what is happening is lying. I have called Besins and they have refused to say what is the source of the information on the PIL regarding Diazepam and Utrogestan interacting to cause irregular bleeding. I suspect they don't know.
You can try using the gel AM to avoid that 'blunt' PM effect. You wake up, have a bath, wait until your skin is cooler and then apply the gel.
Of course your body is absorbing progesterone. There's no reason why it shouldn't be. And you won't have to up Utrogestan dose. I don't know why you are worrying about this. Set doses? What do you mean? Women on luteal support take up to 600mg of Utrogestan, if not more. Not that I think you need to increase the dose.
I can't remember what type of prog the woman rushed to hospital was on, she isn't the same woman who took the cream.
The woman who was rushed to hospital was the woman with all of the scientific knowledge.
There's loads of women on benzo forums who have been laid flat with progesterone changes and withdrawal.
When I said set dose I may have misunderstood Hurdity but I thought no more than 200mg is allowed for meno woman.
Yeah Besins wont be able to give info.
The unknown unknowns are what I am not prepared to toy with, if experts don't know, I don't want to mess with them.
I have meltdowns where I have banged my head on the wall and left blood splats, my safety is at serious risk.
That particular woman have not posted on the forum for ages, so you don't know what exactly has happened to her. Forget about it.
If you need to change prog dose you would have to do the same thing as you're doing with Valium, but since Utrogestan is not available in different doses (other than 200 and 100 mg) you have to tweak estradiol dose or, as I have mentioned above, change PM to AM application, to see if it helps with irregular bleeding.
I'm still waiting for Besins to call me back (or email me), I don't take no for an answer.
Hi
It's not that Besins are being difficult, they cannot supply information related to Benzos.
I feel as if the toxic valium has messed up my whole CNS.
The woman while not posted for ages does have a lot of knowledge and knows what she is talking about.
I can't remember when she said she stopped posting.
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She has stopped posting in May. I've read her posts, she's in her early 50's, so, like you, she could still be perimenopausal and her own fluctuating hormones could be causing her mental issues. It's very complex, Dandelion, you just can't jump to conclusions based on someone else's experiences. Knowledge based on personal experience and quoting loads of articles is not necessarily the truth, especially YOUR truth, since this is a relative concept.
Yes, Valium could have 'messed up your whole CNS', but that is something you are already addressing by tapering off it. Focus on what you can do regarding irregular bleeding, then you can tackle the other stressors.
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She has stopped posting in May. I've read her posts, she's in her early 50's, so, like you, she could still be perimenopausal and her own fluctuating hormones could be causing her mental issues. It's very complex, Dandelion, you just can't jump to conclusions based on someone else's experiences. Knowledge based on personal experience and quoting loads of articles is not necessarily the truth, especially YOUR truth, since this is a relative concept.
Yes, Valium could have 'messed up your whole CNS', but that is something you are already addressing by tapering off it. Focus on what you can do regarding irregular bleeding, then you can tackle the other stressors.
I only gave you two posts. As she is on another forum I did not want to reveal her username. She has posted loads. The other stressors are non medical, and need other people to help solve, people who are either unwilling or unable.
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Regarding Besins, I don't think they are being difficult, I think they have misinterpreted my enquiry. I haven't asked for any medical information related to benzos. I have just asked for references that show evidence of an interaction between Utro and Diazepam regarding irregular bleeding. I suspect it's anecdotal evidence from patients reports, so they can't point me to any references in scientific literature.
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Regarding Besins, I don't think they are being difficult, I think they have misinterpreted my enquiry. I haven't asked for any medical information related to benzos. I have just asked for references that show evidence of an interaction between Utro and Diazepam regarding irregular bleeding. I suspect it's anecdotal evidence from patients reports, so they can't point me to any references in scientific literature.
I just think regarding Besins, as the manufacturer, they may not know for sure interactions, they may not want to give info out that they are unsure of.
Diazepam is dangerous and toxic full stop.
If I had never bothered with diaz, I would be currently on my way off HRT, I used to need 100mcg oestrogen, I only use 50 now, things would be so much easier.
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She has stopped posting in May. I've read her posts, she's in her early 50's, so, like you, she could still be perimenopausal and her own fluctuating hormones could be causing her mental issues. It's very complex, Dandelion, you just can't jump to conclusions based on someone else's experiences. Knowledge based on personal experience and quoting loads of articles is not necessarily the truth, especially YOUR truth, since this is a relative concept.
Yes, Valium could have 'messed up your whole CNS', but that is something you are already addressing by tapering off it. Focus on what you can do regarding irregular bleeding, then you can tackle the other stressors.
I only gave you two posts. As she is on another forum I did not want to reveal her username. She has posted loads. The other stressors are non medical, and need other people to help solve, people who are either unwilling or unable.
No Dandelion, I'm not referring to those posts. I've registered on the forum and I've read almost all of her posts. I've noticed she's clued up in science but as I said before, this doesn't mean anything when the subject is still controversial amongst scientists that publish in this specific topic.
As for other stressors that can't be solved right now, well, what can't be solved, is solved. Saying you have other stressors is okay (we all have our share of sand kicked in our face) but it's not pertinent to this discussion, unless you think this can be causing irregular bleeding, in that case you need your psychiatrist assistance.
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Regarding Besins, I don't think they are being difficult, I think they have misinterpreted my enquiry. I haven't asked for any medical information related to benzos. I have just asked for references that show evidence of an interaction between Utro and Diazepam regarding irregular bleeding. I suspect it's anecdotal evidence from patients reports, so they can't point me to any references in scientific literature.
I just think regarding Besins, as the manufacturer, they may not know for sure interactions, they may not want to give info out that they are unsure of.
Diazepam is dangerous and toxic full stop.
If I had never bothered with diaz, I would be currently on my way off HRT, I used to need 100mcg oestrogen, I only use 50 now, things would be so much easier.
I agree, but thinking of the past won't help you. You are already getting rid of Valium, albeit it's a slow process, so you're doing the right thing.
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She has stopped posting in May. I've read her posts, she's in her early 50's, so, like you, she could still be perimenopausal and her own fluctuating hormones could be causing her mental issues. It's very complex, Dandelion, you just can't jump to conclusions based on someone else's experiences. Knowledge based on personal experience and quoting loads of articles is not necessarily the truth, especially YOUR truth, since this is a relative concept.
Yes, Valium could have 'messed up your whole CNS', but that is something you are already addressing by tapering off it. Focus on what you can do regarding irregular bleeding, then you can tackle the other stressors.
I only gave you two posts. As she is on another forum I did not want to reveal her username. She has posted loads. The other stressors are non medical, and need other people to help solve, people who are either unwilling or unable.
No Dandelion, I'm not referring to those posts. I've registered on the forum and I've read almost all of her posts. I've noticed she's clued up in science but as I said before, this doesn't mean anything when the subject is still controversial amongst scientists that publish in this specific topic.
As for other stressors that can't be solved right now, well, what can't be solved, is solved. Saying you have other stressors is okay (we all have our share of sand kicked in our face) but it's not pertinent to this discussion, unless you think this can be causing irregular bleeding, in that case you need your psychiatrist assistance.
I didn't realise you were registered on the forum, sorry.
Thank you for reading all those posts.
It's the fact that science is still controversial and there are so many unknowns that scares me.
What can't be solved is solved, these problems are related to my living situation, can't say much on public forum.
I am producing a lot of coritisol another dangerous steroid.
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It's alright, I haven't told you ;)
Yes, these problems can mess up with our CNS as well, and our adrenals. Life is not easy. Have you tried psychotherapy?
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It's alright, I haven't told you ;)
Yes, these problems can mess up with our CNS as well, and our adrenals. Life is not easy. Have you tried psychotherapy?
I was turned down for it.
See, cortisol is dangerous I/ feel like I am stuffed.
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It's alright, I haven't told you ;)
Yes, these problems can mess up with our CNS as well, and our adrenals. Life is not easy. Have you tried psychotherapy?
I was turned down for it.
See, cortisol is dangerous I/ feel like I am stuffed.
Cortisol is not dangerous, it's a hormone necessary for a lot of functions, helping us survive dangerous episodes, modulating the immune system and keeping us alert. Chronic long term high or low cortisol levels can be dangerous and there are specific conditions that can cause this and can be treated.
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Turned down for psychotherapy? Why? How?
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It's alright, I haven't told you ;)
Yes, these problems can mess up with our CNS as well, and our adrenals. Life is not easy. Have you tried psychotherapy?
I was turned down for it.
See, cortisol is dangerous I/ feel like I am stuffed.
Cortisol is not dangerous, it's a hormone necessary for a lot of functions, helping us survive dangerous episodes, modulating the immune system and keeping us alert. Chronic long term high or low cortisol levels can be dangerous and there are specific conditions that can cause this and can be treated.
I'm producing wayyyyy too much. Chronic long term over production of coritsol - tick = dangerous.
I am in danger my CNS is stuffed
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Sorry, my broadband is playing up and my mobile connection is rubbish.
No way your producing way too much, you would have other more noticeable symptoms. Chronic long term overproduction is subtle and not a medical condition and is not dangerous. Have you had a cortisol test? Unless you have consistent high levels results, you can't say they're high because cortisol fluctuates as part of its normal functions (just as my mobile connection, apparently).
Bye, I'll catch up later when I get home. Just try to relax, there are many good techniques, yoga, tai chi, meditation, mindfulness, breathing exercises.
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Sorry, my broadband is playing up and my mobile connection is rubbish.
No way your producing way too much, you would have other more noticeable symptoms. Chronic long term overproduction is subtle and not a medical condition and is not dangerous. Have you had a cortisol test? Unless you have consistent high levels results, you can't say they're high because cortisol fluctuates as part of its normal functions (just as my mobile connection, apparently).
Bye, I'll catch up later when I get home. Just try to relax, there are many good techniques, yoga, tai chi, meditation, mindfulness, breathing exercises.
I've got MAJOR problems that could affect generations of other people, sorry I cant post publicly.
Other people involved are either unable or unwilling to help solve them, that is if they are solvable.
They have been going on years.
Exactly, overproduction of cortisol is subtle, I sleep badly considering the huge sedation I am on.
I lost six stones in weight.
No cortisol test.
I'm past all the techniques I would have tried prior to these serious err0rs I made, they do no good.
Intrusive thoughts just intrude.
I am a burden and a liability
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I wrote to Dr Currie on Sunday after being given the go-ahead after making my payment.
It says to wait a couple of days then contact the web master.
The web master has forwarded my email onto Dr Currie.
I think I know the reason for the delay.
Emails have bounced back from the contact address she has and she has had to email me from another address.
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Update of Besin's reply, actually Propharma's (a pharmacovigilance company) reply.
A somewhat blunt and quite absurd reply saying 'there is no data regarding irregular bleeding when Utrogestan (progesterone) is used with Diazepam in the Patient Information Leaflet (PIL) or Summary of Product Characteristics (SPC)'.
There must be a misunderstanding or they haven't actually read the PIL. I agree there is no 'data', but it's obvious that the interaction is mentioned and I have asked for references that confirm this alleged interaction, and I have been clear that if this is a post marketing anecdotal interaction, I would understand the lack of scientific data. They simply don't engage in conversation, they choose to ignore the questions and reply in a way that is supposed to let me think I'm not up to the task of understanding anything and that only a medical doctor or pharmacist will be able to understand. Patronising customer service.
I have replied again and am waiting for the next chapter of this cheap sitcom.
On a brighter note, this book chapter is a clear comprehensible doc on the interaction of progesterone, estradiol and benzos in relation to GABA-A receptors.
http://www.scicompdf.se/pms_scientific/backstrom_13.pdf
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Update of Besin's reply, actually Propharma's (a pharmacovigilance company) reply.
A somewhat blunt and quite absurd reply saying 'there is no data regarding irregular bleeding when Utrogestan (progesterone) is used with Diazepam in the Patient Information Leaflet (PIL) or Summary of Product Characteristics (SPC)'.
There must be a misunderstanding or they haven't actually read the PIL. I agree there is no 'data', but it's obvious that the interaction is mentioned and I have asked for references that confirm this alleged interaction, and I have been clear that if this is a post marketing anecdotal interaction, I would understand the lack of scientific data. They simply don't engage in conversation, they choose to ignore the questions and reply in a way that is supposed to let me think I'm not up to the task of understanding anything and that only a medical doctor or pharmacist will be able to understand. Patronising customer service.
I have replied again and am waiting for the next chapter of this cheap sitcom.
On a brighter note, this book chapter is a clear comprehensible doc on the interaction of progesterone, estradiol and benzos in relation to GABA-A receptors.
http://www.scicompdf.se/pms_scientific/backstrom_13.pdf
Hi Uptick
Thanks for replying. I am too stressed to read the link alas, as I use valium, progesterone and estradiol and fear my CNS is messed up.