Menopause Matters Forum
General Discussion => This 'n' That => Topic started by: CLKD on October 15, 2023, 08:17:59 AM
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This is Old news : Open fires are worse than stoves. They haven’t even mentioned that.
Stoves are better than open fires. The Clean Air Act research had proved that, and the new modern stoves are even better still. They are only just behind oil fired boilers in terms of efficiency and cleanliness.
Pm2.5 is produced at higher levels when the stove is started, slumbering (low temperature for a long time) or going out.
Running it within its optional temperature range dramatically reduced the amount of pm2.5 it produces over all as it combusts the fuel efficiently.
Over all, the whole point of the Clean Air Act and all these little studies is that we will have to move away from burning at home completely. Probably in our lifetime too.
News on all the sweeping forums is that studies have found that the new clean air act hasn’t had the affect on air quality that the government wanted to see. This is primarily due to people still burning “wet” wood collected themselves or wood above the recommended %.
Combine that with the amount of dodgy installations, the amount of broken, not serviced and old stoves and finally, those who don’t sweep their chimneys regularly, this is why it amount of pm2.5 hasn’t dropped as predicted.
The next move, within the next 2-3 years will be to get sweeps to report all none compliant stoves they see to councils who will serve cease and desist notices on the owners forcing them to either buy a new efficient stove or probably because of the price, stop burning at all.
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This is a bit confusing for those who haven't seen our posts on the How Are You Today thread ;D
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Hello ladies.
Keeping to one thread on a subject is a big deal to some people but now another one has appeared! I can't figure out if I am confused or not lol.
Take care ladies.
K.
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Because Taz it's a different topic - nowt to do with 'how R U today'.
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They won't be reporting on my mine, we have a chimney liner that doesn't get swept. It seems that instead of pursuing zero carbon policies they're picking off those who who don't squeal loudly enough. They're building a new estate near me with presumably all the insulation they need but they have gas heating and no solar panels. Why? It's much cheaper to do it now than to retrofit. Yet they thought they'd ban oil CH for rural off grid properties (and now trying stoves too) most of which are old, poorly insulated and owned by people without a spare £30k to insulate and retrofit their homes. Why aren't we starting with the ones that are cheap and easy to do? Other countries have much better off grid solutions than we do but here we seem to do everything to benefit the big corporations at the expense of the man in the street who has no choice but to pay for it.
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We still have ours swept even though it's lined. I'm not sure what is being reported.I know that we have to declare that the wood burner doesn't meet the new particulate emission rules if we sell the house.
I don't know what things other countries have in place re solar panels for heating and hot water although I have friends with them. Will have to look into that further :)
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In the 1990s it was agreed in Europe that all new properties would have grey water collection tanks, solar panels, proper insulation and triple glazing. Any1 know how many Estates were built thus? :-\. 1 new build estate with all the above was OK until the pumps failed to bring the grey water into tanks for flushing loss etc.. Because no one had thought far enough ahead to find a Company who would service the pumps :-\ >:(. Opened by Prince Charles at the time with bells and whistles as to how 'green' it was going to be ..... it's easy to get the 'little man' in the street but rarely are the large companies kept to building the % of shared homes as passed on the Plans. >:(
I didn't think that gas was going to be built in2 new properties? None of the new builds around here have solar panels ........ >:(
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An Autumnal reminder:
Brits are urged to make sure they use certified fire logs in their burners and to monitor the stove’s glass to ensure there are no small cracks or excess damage.
Burning at home with traditional house coal or wet wood is a major source of the pollutant PM2.5 – tiny particles which can enter the bloodstream and lodge in lungs and other organs. This pollutant has been identified by the World Health Organisation as the most serious air pollutant for human health.
While people with log burners and open fires can still use them, they are required by law to buy cleaner alternative fuels, such as dry wood and manufactured solid fuels, which produce less smoke. Burning dry wood also produces more heat and less soot than wet wood and can reduce emissions by up to 50%.
Under government restrictions:
sales of bagged traditional house coal and wet wood in units under 2m3 are now unlawful
wet wood in larger volumes must be sold with advice on how to dry it before burning
all manufactured solid fuels must now have a low sulphur content and only emit a small amount of smoke
John Cutts, expert at MeandMyGlass.co.uk said: “Many log burner owners are unaware of the recent implications of clean air regulations. If they’re not followed correctly, thousands of Brits could face large fines and even a criminal conviction".
R sweep and local wood man know what they are doing when they give advice and deliver our logs 8)
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If logs are stored up off the floor in the dry on a pallet or similar the air can then get round them.
I miss our woodburner since moving handy for cooking on when we lost power and so cosy.
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Ours holds 3/4 small baking spuds in foil on top ;-)
One shouldn't store logs beside the burner as they can self ignite.
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My daughter has recently inherited a wood burner which she'll rarely use and is unaware of rules and regulations etc. I'm curious about how these clean air regulations would be enforced? Do they send people to your door asking if you have a wood burner and demanding to inspect it? I genuinely don't know.
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The sweep has to inform the owner what is required to keep wood burners within legal constraints I think ........ but there will be a time when owners are asked I suppose.
What does DD plan to do with her wood burner, in situ it will help to keep draughts from going up the chimney. Of course houses should be built with underflow flow to a fire but builders rarely do what might be of benefit ::)
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I think the log burner will loose it’s popularity soon especially if more evidence emerges of what it omits. It will be a a lot further down the road though.
On a slight meander, I think vaping will have a limited lifespan too, when people start getting ill from all the chemicals.
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CLKD the only plans so far is to have it swept. Think it's full of bird mess and debris. She can't get a sweep to come out before January. :o
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littleminnie - some young people have been hospitalised due to VAPE reactions, 1 as young as 11 :o. What were her parents thinking >:(
Autumnwalks - yep, January is 'about right' because every 1 suddenly remembers that they require a sweep B4 they light up. Which is why ours attends our burner and chimney in May/June. He takes his family on Holiday in Jan/Feb. ;)
Bird mess and debris shouldn't get into a wood burner :-\. It's still better to use than an open fire which emits 85% of the heat, straight up the chimney. However, that man in the Red Outfit moans every year ;D :whist:
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littleminnie - some young people have been hospitalised due to VAPE reactions, 1 as young as 11 :o. What were her parents thinking >:(
Autumnwalks - yep, January is 'about right' because every 1 suddenly remembers that they require a sweep B4 they light up. Which is why ours attends our burner and chimney in May/June. He takes his family on Holiday in Jan/Feb. ;)
Bird mess and debris shouldn't get into a wood burner :-\. It's still better to use than an open fire which emits 85% of the heat, straight up the chimney. However, that man in the Red Outfit moans every year ;D :whist:
Are you saying, from a particle perspective, that open fires are safer? I have been so reluctant to use ours because of the risk, thought it was worse than wood burner tbh. Would be glad to hear otherwise.
Chimney sweep coming in 3 weeks though so I'll hold off until then at least. Have to wait as we had a seagull nest on our roof this year and last!
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I don't know whether particulates have been recorded with open fires. It seems that the Government wants to rid the country of gas and now wood burners so have all these 'tests' done to prove a point. And with any government of the day, apart from discussing with our Sweep, I don't listen to any scare mongering.
Coal fires caused smog = deaths particularly in the 1950s.
Our Sweep fixed a thing on top of our chimney which confuses the birds and as for that man in the Red Suit ........
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Lol, kids here young enough to refuse to let us light a fire on Christmas eve!
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Penguin - I would have thought wood burners are safer than an open fire. We have a log burner and we love it but I just think the trend will wear off as the government seems to want to get rid of them.
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We R however approaching an Election Year ;-)
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Penguin - I would have thought wood burners are safer than an open fire. We have a log burner and we love it but I just think the trend will wear off as the government seems to want to get rid of them.
Doesn't seem to be much point switching at the moment if the focus is on getting rid of them. I'll just use the open fire sparingly, maybe on a Sunday afternoon when it's really cold. Will have to have a look around to see what the safest wood is, I think it is the extra dry stuff?
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Kiln dried: anything else sold is now illegal, i.e. the stuff at Petrol stations and garden centres, best to check the labels.
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Husband just said our wood is kiln dried so that's good.
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Yes we use only use kiln dried. Having a log burner fitted is expensive now too, someone we know has just been quoted almost 5k.
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Yes we use only use kiln dried. Having a log burner fitted is expensive now too, someone we know has just been quoted almost 5k.
Blimey I can think of better uses for 5k right now. Probably moving next year anyway so I'll see what new house has. Guess that's something I'll have to look at too - if new house already has one, I'll have to make sure it's compliant.
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That's something that the owners of any house with wood burner should put on their information pack, backed up by a Sweep. We get a Certificate to show the Fire Service - what good that would do though, as it's in the filing cabinet ::) - under fire place.
I can't remember what we paid for ours. There was a lot of choice, we had good advice from the people who fitted it. We didn't need a chimney/flue lining though many companies will insist ...... even if the chimney is OK without.
What was the 5K covering exactly?
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Looked at the price from the company that fitted ours 5 years ago: Aquaflame :
Some are multi-fuel, others wood: some can be cooked on the top, others have a chimney which goes up the flue in the way ::).
VIEW 5 MIDLINE T (MULTIFUEL) [photo]
ex-show room model in black with glass door
£1,449.00 £1,149.00
Multi-fuel | 4.9kW nominal output
Suitable for smoke controlled areas
Upto 84% efficient
Was £1449 – Now £1149
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This was to go in a kitchen/diner/lounge. Not in a fireplace with a chimney.
The price was for the log burner plus fitting.
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In an older house with iffy underfloor heating (oil fired) a woodburner is essential and far cheaper to use than central heating. We are at home most of the day and language the heating on a couple of hours in morning then again evening. The woodburner is heats up our main room and retains the heat.
We are rural, so have are classed as off main grid. Looked into having a new boiler fitted using green electricity, but the running costs are currently four times higher than oil. Costs mean we will need to stick with oil, and wood as an additional heat source.
Just had ours swept, birds and nests can affect the chimneys, sweep said a grid to protect from such things is not viable for some chimneys, definitely use their knowledge when they come to being swept. And house insurers often need an up to date certificate too.
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CKLD it's the chimney that has the bird mess etc down it, not the actual woodburner stove. It's a big stone fireplace in a rural property.
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It's a big stone fireplace in a rural property.
There are also hearth regulations for a woodburner.
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They're being selectively green again. When they stop the water companies polluting rivers and aeroplanes polluting the atmosphere I'll be more inclined to listen to the rest of their 🐂💩.
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They're being selectively green again. When they stop the water companies polluting rivers and aeroplanes polluting the atmosphere I'll be more inclined to listen to the rest of their 🐂💩.
Yeah that's a really good point. And dumping raw sewage in the sea. The beaches where we live were terrible this summer.
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I would be interested in the 'hearth regulations' :-\
As DH said [being a scientisit] has any1 actually measured the types of particulates and how many of those might stay in the body and if so where and what harm would they do? as in taking samples on slides to see what the particulates actually consist of? All of us walk around vehicles probably without a thought in the World about particulates ...... or how vehicles in a queue might be more dangerous than the odd time that a wood burning stove door is opened.
As there is a draft each time the door is opened most particulates will be wafted up into the chimney and away
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I would be interested in the 'hearth regulations' :-\
You can look online for the list. one quote.....
"The hearth must extend at least 300mm to the front and 150mm to either side. It must be at least 12mm thick. It must be made from non-combustible materials. It must also cover a minimum area of 840 x 840mm."
I found out years ago from the stove shop when i went to buy new rope and glue for the inner door edges and enquired about getting a smaller new woodburner.
Previous owner had put in a large woodburner that had a back boiler which was really too big for the room. The hearth was made of the right stuff but the burner did not have 12inches clear in front of it which is one reg on the list.
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Tnx for that update.
A back boiler is the way that all houses should be built. Winter heating of water and radiators, the heater has to be the correct size for the whole house. Dad had a back boiler which wasn't enough for 4 rads ::) so he added to the system himself. Oil fired. The wood burner heated the tank in the airing cupboard = hot water, or the immersion for Summer.
My Aunt had a Rayburn which worked on the same principal, with an electric cooker for the Summer.
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We are a Mine of Info 8)
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Tnx for that update.
A back boiler is the way that all houses should be built. Winter heating of water and radiators, the heater has to be the correct size for the whole house. Dad had a back boiler which wasn't enough for 4 rads ::) so he added to the system himself. Oil fired. The wood burner heated the tank in the airing cupboard = hot water, or the immersion for Summer.
My Aunt had a Rayburn which worked on the same principal, with an electric cooker for the Summer.
Good to have alternative fuel sources.
Now I think you have to think insulation, heat source pump & solar panels with storage batteries.
Not that we will be readily investing in all that at our age now !
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Of course, those ideas were compulsory from the 1990s under EU Laws - did R governments of the day be bothered?
Not many properties have the radiators that will accommodate any new ideas pushed onto owners, so the £5,000 for each won't go anywhere near the over all costs. And when an attic has too much insulation, the rafters are in danger of rotting due to condensation. What will that cost and how many owners realise and go into the attic space to check?
Houses need to breath: hence the air brick between two layers of inner and outer bricks!
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Underfloor heating & vents in your soffits ?
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Underfloor heating has a fire risk.
We have vents in the double glazing.
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Underfloor heating has a fire risk.
We have vents in the double glazing.
I must admit when we first had double glazing installed the vents just seemed a ludicrous idea.
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My understanding was underfloor heating has a very low fire risk,obviously professionally fitted etc. We live in a converted barn, mostly timber, vents must be kept open all year roun, condensation should be kept low Smoke alarms fitted, carbon monoxide alarm fitted where wood burner is. Everything serviced annually. Never had any problems other than age related... Kind of like me on some respects. >:(
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It depends on how the under floor heating is fixed. In some cases a certain type of concrete can 'move' which has in some instances caused pipes to crack and smoulder .......
We have alarm systems in the house and camper van.
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Underfloor heating has a fire risk.
It depends on how the under floor heating is fixed. In some cases a certain type of concrete can 'move' which has in some instances caused pipes to crack and smoulder .......
I will quiz son-in-law who is a heating engineer.
He has retrofitted their older property with insulation, underfloor heating and air source heat pump. Has found that the noticeable cost has been in running the pump so now has solar panels fitted with storage batteries to bring that down. All capital outlay even with the grant and some self fitting at trade prices to be redeemed over time.
Pretty sure he has been recently fitting some barns being converted with pumps etc.
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If underfloor heating is a fire risk it must be extremely low. I’ve never heard any reports of fires being started by it.
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I have heard of at least 5 in recent years which is why I wouldn't be keen to 'own' underfloor heating. Nor thatch!
Let me know Minusminnie ? How long will Capital outlay take to be recouped? Trade prices are different to what the usual house holder has access to.
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How about water under floor heating? No fire risk there.
Taz x
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Ours is water underfloor heating. Didn't realise there were other options. Certainly no fire risk here.
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That's B pipes then ;D - our Siamese knew where all the pipes were, he would lay purring gently once the heating went on of an evening 8)
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Yep, same here. One cat on the same spot every evening, the other on the hotspot under the kitchen table....😻😺
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I have heard of at least 5 in recent years which is why I wouldn't be keen to 'own' underfloor heating. Nor thatch!
Let me know Minusminnie ? How long will Capital outlay take to be recouped? Trade prices are different to what the usual house holder has access to.
He reckons the system he has put in insulation, air source heat pump, solar panels with batteries, underfloor heating is going to cost much the same as running the previous gas boiler. So it will take a rise in gas and electric prices when they will start to benefit and recoup costs. The grant for installing a heat pump is now £7500. The cost he noticed most was running the heat pump without having the solar panels.
New builds will soon not be able to install gas boilers.
During his 20 years work he has not heard of underfloor heating catching fire and would like to see the case study for that. The system is designed trip out with any fault.
We find trade prices don't always apply to family !
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:thankyou: that's really interesting Minusminnie - I'm sure that if 1 does a search one will find evidence of under floor heating causing fires.
Of course the government of the day wants the UK to run on all electric ........ what happens when there's a power cut? Whilst many heating systems need electricity to keep the circulation pumps running ........... so out go wood burners, out go gas appliances ......... up will go the price of electricity each time the UK has to buy from Europe [which we do already but it isn't a head line].
Is this idea going to be another white elephant as was the Millennium Dome, HS2, wind power farms out at sea when the blades have to be turned off in 'bad' weather = buying from Europe. What happened to choice? :-\
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I can only find it mentioned that if the system is not put in by a registered heating engineer then this could be unsafe? But that's the same as having a gas central heating installed without a registered person. I can't find anything about well maintained and properly installed systems being a problem. Can you share a link to what you have read as it is important that we know about such stuff.
Taz x
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The same Taz. If you employ a cowboy to do any job, you'll have problems. I couldn't find any actual reported fires. Just says they're unlikely.
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It certainly is but these fires go back several years, reported in various newspapers by Fire Services at the time.
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I guess if it's years ago then the safety might be different? I'm waiting in for a delivery so have had time to search for details out of curiousness 🤣. Can't find any reports for the last few years on the fire service/govuk site. They appear to be safe nowadays. :)
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Oh sorry, I thought you said recent years. I'm bunking off from packing up for a house move in two days ;)
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Our chimney sweep came today, we have an open fire. All good, form completed for insurance, no issues. Repeat in a year unless we get one of those cages for the top to keep the seagulls off, in which case we can go two years. Decided to keep to one fire per week max, so looking forward to cosying up with DH, kids and dog on Sunday pm.
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:thankyou: that's really interesting Minusminnie - I'm sure that if 1 does a search one will find evidence of under floor heating causing fires.
Think i will take son-in-laws word for it that it is safe. He is registered and has to regularly go on courses/training days in order to keep his certificates and stay up to date.
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Our Sweep attends annually regardless of the 'cowl' on top to stop jackdaws from roosting. My issue is, the Certificate will be in the Filing Cabinet under 'chimney' - how will that help when showing the Fire Brigade ::)
Will there be muffins Penguin with lots of butter or honey?
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Our Sweep attends annually regardless of the 'cowl' on top to stop jackdaws from roosting. My issue is, the Certificate will be in the Filing Cabinet under 'chimney' - how will that help when showing the Fire Brigade ::)
Will there be muffins Penguin with lots of butter or honey?
Have never done that! Kids usually do scores with marshmallows and biscuits. I do like the sound of muffins with butter though. Where best to buy them from though?
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most village shops or stores have them
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Kids usually do scores with marshmallows and biscuits.
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I had to ask what a smores brownie was in the cake shop the other week. Never heard of them before.
Thick toast done on open fire embers using a toasting fork tastes different but not in a bad way. Chestnuts done on the coal shovel at christmas. I miss our open fire. We had that and a woodburner in our previous home. Don't miss the work around them though when we can now flick a switch.
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Kids usually do scores with marshmallows and biscuits.
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I had to ask what a smores brownie was in the cake shop the other week. Never heard of them before.
Thick toast done on open fire embers using a toasting fork tastes different but not in a bad way. Chestnuts done on the coal shovel at christmas. I miss our open fire. We had that and a woodburner in our previous home. Don't miss the work around them though when we can now flick a switch.
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Ooh can you do chestnuts on a wood fire too? I hadn't thought of that either!
We make smores with digestive biscuits and the massive marshmallows. They are a bit sickly for me but I'm defo up for trying muffins and toast!
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This week DH measured the amount of heating oil in the tank, we haven't had a delivery since March. Instead we use the wood burning stove, lit from about 3.30 p.m. with the boiler on in the background. Once the room heats up, the thermostat is switched down. The boiler heats the bathroom so we don't leave it on to heat the radiators until we are up each morning.
In the Summer we use the immersion heater for hot water bathing. All year we use the kettle to wash up in the sink, make tea/coffee etc.. Rarely do I run hot water from the tank for washing up.
My biggest problem is the small cloakroom sink which is as far away from the hot water tank as is possible! I would like to put a small heater-unit, similar to that in showers, so that I don't have to run lots of cold water away to get it warm enough to wash hands. Hints on a postcard please ;)
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CLKD as I found out the hard way, water heating units require a big electrical load, and that might mean a new fuse box. Get a plumber who knows his electrics to quote for you.
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Sorry - I don't get your gist :-\. this is about wood burning stoves
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It's in reply to your question at the end of your post about a water heater in your small cloakroom?
Taz x
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Tnx Taz ..... sometimes I need my hand holding ::) Duhhhhh. ............. tnx both. We have a large fuse box fitted about 10 years ago, now I need to find an electrician for advice ::)
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-68079506
Taz :-\
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As my old Dad would have said: "Piffle!" none of this article has Research to back up their claims. It is important to burn kiln dried wood which has nothing to leech out. Coal has more gasses than wood.
How do these people reckon that it isn't cheaper than gas or coal?
>puts another log on the fire <. A lot of this is because the government of the day wants the whole country to go electric, much of which is important from mainland Europe!
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No doubt this was written from someone who lives in an area where mainline has is an option. Or can afford an air pump\heat pump which apparently cannot hear most homes adequately so they need a back up heat. Like a woodburner.....
If you are rural and off grid there are not many affordable options. Follow the guidelines 're wood being fit to burn. We are oil CH, wanting to change to electric ( using a company that buys wind farm sources power) . We have underfloor heating which is a slow gentle heat release. We have a vaulted ceiling so require the wood burner to heat the room enough.
Grrr.
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There's a few log burners in my area and mostly using them legally. The problem is the ones that are throwing anything on and think nobody will notice after dark. Some don't even wait until dark on cold days.They have been reported to environmental health but the reply is to monitor it and do a chart. No action taken. Just have to make sure all windows are closed and we've got the washing in.
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I wouldn't go all electric either heating or vehicles. What happens when there is too much wind so that those turbines have to be switched off for safety? So the UK then buys in power from Europe, most. of it from nuclear generators. Now that we don't get paper bills most of that info goes past home owners!
Dierdre - that's similar to most complaints that I put in to the Environment Agency: they will give *me* a monitor. My reply is always 'you can't afford my hourly rate'!
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;D ;D ;D
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As my old Dad would have said: "Piffle!" none of this article has Research to back up their claims.
I haven't read it all but the research links are here https://www.cleanairhub.org.uk/clean-air-information/air-pollution-health/why-is-air-pollution-damaging-to-people-s-health
I do wonder about the particulate stuff as I notice the layer of dust on our surfaces in the winter when we use the log burner. Does keep us toasty though and the cats love stretching out in front of it :)
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Dust is different to particulates :-\. We have dust all year round. They are trying to push everyone to 'go electric'. Eventually: like 'go to work on an egg' which was suddenly bad for us : this too will turn around. And don't forget, this is an election year!
After all, people lived with coal/wood open fires for Centuries. It was smog that killed so the Clean Air Act was brought in.
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We just don't want oil anymore. Electricity seems the best option for us, a bit cleaner air wise as no pumping oil burner excess into the air.
Pros and cons for all types of heating really. But our wood burner is staying. Our cats are likely to move home otherwise .... Although they do love the underfloor heating. Too many beams means radiators are not a good option so we have worked out what is better for us and hope it helps a little to steer away from oil being a fossil fuel.
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However, oil is still being drilled for, see last Sunday's Country File programme
In places of scientific interest ...... which the public have paid to preserve through taxes!
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Solar panels with battery storage? If anyone's tried it I'd be interested to know how it's worked out. It would be nice to ditch the electricity bills.
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Hence a reason we want to move away from such destructions! Just have to weigh up all the options available given an individual's financial circumstances and what would actually work in their house.
Sheila,cannot do solar here as our building is listed. Also I understand they need replacing after 25 years or so. But it is relatively early days so technology should make their life longer.