Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: wenbird75 on September 17, 2024, 02:23:22 PM
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I’m almost 49 and this last year I’ve gone through very difficult insomnia. I’ve previously always slept like a rock. I will have clusters of nights where I get almost zero sleep. I am taking estrogen cream & progesterone. I’m still having regular periods. I have lots of other peri symptoms. But the insomnia is just awful. I’m wondering if the estrogen cream might be making my sleep worse?
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Hi Wenbird,
I really feel for you as I know insomnia makes y
eerything seem rotten. Not sure re oestrogen cream as I'm on gel/utro but since I started taking magnesium glycinate my sleep has much improved. Might be worth a try x
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Did you go through this at all where you would have clusters of nights without sleep? How did you cope with that? I think the anxiety of not sleeping is making it worse. Because now I approach my bedroom and I’m almost terrified that I won’t be able to sleep again. I just want somebody to tell me that it is totally normal because it feels so Abnormal
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Hiya
I too have been having a horrid time getting to/staying asleep.. Nightmare when I'm still working 4 days a week in a very busy job..
I like K45 started taking magnesium glycinate supplement about two weeks ago maybe.. I've definitely noticed an improvement in my sleep pattern/habits..
Just my experience.. was suggested to me by a fellow staff member.. I'll be honest I didn't think it could possibly help... I've eaten my words lol.. I take it about 2 hours before I'd like to get to sleep ..
Your experience may vary... :) x
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What estrogen 'cream' are you taking? This doesn't sound like systemic HRT as we have patches, gels and spray - no cream...
If you are not on prescription strength licensed estrogen but just on some over the counter cream, of course it won't be strong enough to help you.
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Yep, I'd have bad weeks where I was up most of the night and getting by on lots of calm tea and gritting my teeth through work. I wasn't really coping with it and after months of this my GP prescribed HRT and the utrogestan seems to be a game changer as it knocks me out for the whole night! It appears to be very common in perimenopause and I completely understand the anxiety around fearing this will not stop happening. My GP has also prescribed a strong antihistamine in the past - promethazine which works really well.
quote author=wenbird75 link=topic=70785.msg958185#msg958185 date=1726587548]
Did you go through this at all where you would have clusters of nights without sleep? How did you cope with that? I think the anxiety of not sleeping is making it worse. Because now I approach my bedroom and I’m almost terrified that I won’t be able to sleep again. I just want somebody to tell me that it is totally normal because it feels so Abnormal
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I am also not sleeping. On and off for way worse since I started estrogen cream.
I wake up than pee, last night it was 5 times.
I recently got my period which after 5 months Mia was a surprise.
I try all the right things, no phone before bed. Melatonin etc etc. regular sleep time….pulling out caffeine is my new experiment. My vaginal dryness is not helping.
I too am struggling with little to no sleep. Melatonin after awhile can have side effects like peeing at night, drowsy the next day etc” so I am going to pull that tonight.
I def believe it is the cream as well. I only use it twice a week but wonder if my sleep issues have just gotten worse.
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What estrogen 'cream' are you taking? This doesn't sound like systemic HRT as we have patches, gels and spray - no cream...
If you are not on prescription strength licensed estrogen but just on some over the counter cream, of course it won't be strong enough to help you.
There is estrogen cream for the vagina, it is prescription only I use Premarin. Its topical estrogen for localized issues
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As we age we don't require as much sleep as we think we might do! Apparently.
A good sleep hygiene routine is important. Switching off blue light, gadgets, TV - I have a deep bubble bath most evenings with good book, then fall into bed. Usually I sleep well, those nights when sleep won't happen I lay for hours. Pondering :-\
I have been known to wake to C whether I've been asleep ! ::). and I think the more that we worry about 'not getting enough' keeps the brain active.
Years ago I used non-drowsy travel-sickness pills, kwells springs to mind. 2 nights of good sleep got me back into a pattern.
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Insomnia in peri is caused by hormonal imbalance. Need to find out which hormone causes it, because both low progesterone or low estrogen can cause the same insomnia.
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Folks, you can't expect topical estrogen cream in your vagina to help your sleep.
It's topical. It only affects the local area. It does not have systemic effects. There are multiple, multiple studies showing it is not absorbed systemically.
If you want to treat insomnia you need to take systemic hormones/HRT.
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Can anyone suggest a good brand for magnesium glycinate supplement please?
Just started taking a Magnesium Oxide for sleep/restless legs but would like to try magnesium glycinate...
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I use love life Magnesium bisglycinate its about £29 I think.
It's the best magnesium for sleep and it will help restless legs as well.
I think this type of magnesium that I use have no fillers or rubbish in them x
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I highly doubt cream would affect your sleep, since it isn’t systemic.
I have had bouts of insomnia for many years, and this has only been rectified by HRT patches.
Advice would be to sleep when you can, even if it’s not bedtime. You can try sleeping at the opposite end of your bed (pillow where your feet would be). Strange, but did help me from time to time. Don’t stay in bed if you aren’t tired, or if you haven’t been able to nod off within the hour.
Try lavender pillow spray. Try being mindful in your body, and then relaxing every muscle from scalp to toes. This does take practice! Try earplugs, and eye masks, or even a light weighted blanket.
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3 small bananas a day cured my restless leg syndrome which occurs the moment I get into bed if it's going to be problematic. Nurofen helps too.
Becareful of magnesium, some variations can affect the bowels ;)
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Is estrogen cream the only estrogen you are taking? If so, you may want to consider patches or gel. Lack of sleep has been a big issue for me for a long time, I take promethazine, I'd prefer not to because it drys my mouth but I get 5-6 hours sleep with that rather than 3-4 without it and it's the difference between functioning and not functioning. Ear plugs and an eye mask can help disturbances.
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Promethazine is a life saver! It's the only thing that 100% works and i find it doesn't have the awful withdrawal effects like progesterone. I know exactly what you mean about it making the difference between functioning and not functioning. Barely holding it together atm but am going to take it tonight to get through tomorrow.
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I take it every night. Every time I try a night without it I'm awake within 3 to 4 hours and feel like a zombie all day, it's just not worth it. Still trying to find an alternative but for now I'll stick with it. I was given a suggestion recently that apparently is quite effective - each time you wake in the night you should read a book with very soft lighting until you feel sleepy again, continue this and it should get less over time. I lasted two nights and couldn't cope with the tiredness on top of the brain fog I already have but if you don't rely on the promethazine every night K45 then it might be worth a try 🤷🏼♀️.
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Thanks so much Peaches for the helpful suggestion. I really feel for you as it is so exhausting dealing with the insomnia and brain fog. I have found extra dose of magnesium at bed can help you cope better the next day even without enough sleep. Will start a book tonight...fingers crossed!
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So I have a weird problem where I don’t sleep or get an hour or two hours of sleep.
But feel absolutely wired in the am, I cant figure out. This has been a new things for me to sort out.
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Yeah, that's called peri-menopause....
Systemic HRT is your best bet for fixing it. It has taken me 4 years to get levels high enough because I wasted so much time faffing around trying other things. So don't do that, would be my advice - just get on the HRT...
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I agree but there is a caveat...it depends on how you react to HRT as in perimenopause the stop start progesterone every 2 weeks means I sleep incredibly well just half the month and feel calm then it's the complete opposite horrific anxiety and insomnia. I'm at the point where I'm scared the utrogestan is dangerous for my mental health and damaging my brain. Is the answer less utrogestan or more and I don't know if the GPs even understand what this drug can do to your mind. Sorry for the very long post! :'(
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I agree but there is a caveat...it depends on how you react to HRT as in perimenopause the stop start progesterone every 2 weeks means I sleep incredibly well just half the month and feel calm then it's the complete opposite horrific anxiety and insomnia. I'm at the point where I'm scared the utrogestan is dangerous for my mental health and damaging my brain. Is the answer less utrogestan or more and I don't know if the GPs even understand what this drug can do to your mind. Sorry for the very long post! :'(
I too have progesterone issues. Utrogestan gave me breast pain, heartburn, nightmares and mood problems. Tried Mirena but it wouldn't stop bleeding so now I'm on Provera which isn't perfect but it's the least problematic. Progesterone has never helped me sleep. I've tried tart cherry juice melatonin, kalms, valerian, magnesium... nothing works except the promethazine which comes with it's own side effects. I did get a week of zopiclone which was fabulous but gp won't prescribe it again. Anyway, I digress.
K45, would Mirena be a solution to your progesterone issues?
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I'm really sorry you have a rough time with progesterone too. It's horrible not knowing what to do for the best. Thanks for the suggestion- Mirena was suggested by GP but I don't feel comfortable with the idea of having this as friends have had real problems with it and can't even bear smears... it's the withdrawal from it not the progesterone itself that causes the most problems so I'm trying to use antihistamines now for the withdrawal period hopefully going forward will make this more bearable.
Zopiclone works well but not safe long term my GP said a while back. I think promethazine is probably safest as GP gave it to me specifically for sleep after surgery as I was hallucinating after 2 weeks no sleep which was terrifying! Oh the joys of perimenopause! I wish I could fast forward till it's over!!
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I agree! I often wonder if these symptoms will ever end. Here's hoping 🤞🤗
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Hi Peach8,
I really feel for you. I've had many episodes of insomnia since being perimenopausal. It's a common symptom of hormone deficiency.
Pre HRT I tried melatonin, taurine, glycine, magnesium glycinate, lavender & valerian tea, meditation/yoga nidra. These all helped to some level, some nights better than others. Once I started HRT and my dose was optimal, I slept so much better but once my HRT dose wasn't correct again, my sleep would suffer again. Which is where I am now unfortunately.
What I try and do now is not worry about it. What I find can help is going out in the daylight in the morning for at least 30 mins every day to help set the body clock and melatonin on/off setting. I go to bed really early, so I don't feel the pressure of 'needing' to get to sleep. I mean early like 7pm. Make sure as much light is shut out of the bedroom as possible. I turn my electric clock light off, so I can't see the time and nor clock watch too. I take my supplements (as listed above), I relax my body down with yoga nidra or something similar (lots of free videos on YouTube or free meditation apps). Then if I find sleep isn't coming as soon as it normally would, I simply feign sleep. I get as heavy and relaxed in my body as possible and keep my mind clear or just focus on my breath entering/leaving my body. This allows the body to get as close to sleep as possible. I find I can cope the next day with this, rather than fretting and getting up through the night, which makes me feel beaten up the next day.
Hope there's something there that may help. x
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Hi Mumto3
Thanks for your support, it's good to know I'm not alone. My kids are still fairly young so that does influence the times I can go to bed and need to rise somewhat. I've just increased my estrogen dose so fingers crossed that helps. Thanks for your input. 😊
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K45, you could try taking P continuously even in peri - if you are worried about breakthrough bleeding you can add in a POP like desogestrel which will keep the uterine lining very thin. (Desogestrel is approved for birth control whilst on HRT.) That way your P levels would be constant.
Or just do the P but stopping just for 3-5 days to allow a bleed, if that meant just a few nights of bad sleep?
The Mirena is a marmite thing. The vast majority of women love it. A few hate it. You can get it removed if it doesn't work for you.
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Thanks Joziel for the helpful suggestions - my GP said once I've been on sequential hrt 15 months (so next June) then changing to 25 days or continuous would be an option. If I am still struggling this much with the next withdrawal from utro I will go back and see if anything can be changed earlier. Trying to re-sync the hrt to my own cycle is what led to the worst withdrawal symptoms I've ever had this month so I feel I need to give it one more try to see if it's bearable. Thanks again for the ideas.
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Great yes. There's no need to wait 15 months really. I couldn't tolerate sequential P because I have a history of endo and the unopposed E for half the month made me get endo symptoms back again.
So I just switched to continuous with a 3-5 day break for a bleed. I was only on HRT for a few months at that time.
I do recommend the break if you are still in peri because otherwise you get random breakthrough bleeding and then some doctors can freak and send you for ultrasounds and hysteroscopies and all that - so you can best avoid that by scheduling the bleed so no one freaks out...
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Thanks so much Joziel - it's really reassuring to hear that you were able to switch to continous after only a few months on HRT. The 3-5 days break makes sense especially when you know your own cycle is still strong. Bleeding does seem to be the big reason why we're advised to do the on/off utrogestan in perimenopause but the bleeding is less of a concern than feeling like you're literally losing your mind!
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So I have a weird problem where I don’t sleep or get an hour or two hours of sleep.
But feel absolutely wired in the am, I cant figure out. This has been a new things for me to sort out.
Hi it is truly miserable!! How long have you been going through this? Are you in peri or menopause?
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I agree but there is a caveat...it depends on how you react to HRT as in perimenopause the stop start progesterone every 2 weeks means I sleep incredibly well just half the month and feel calm then it's the complete opposite horrific anxiety and insomnia. I'm at the point where I'm scared the utrogestan is dangerous for my mental health and damaging my brain. Is the answer less utrogestan or more and I don't know if the GPs even understand what this drug can do to your mind. Sorry for the very long post! :'(
That is where I am at! Since I am still having my cycle every month, although it is not as regular, I can’t tell if the HRT is helping or hurting. I think during this perimenopause phase, our hormones are naturally fluctuating very high and very low.. complicated by much less sleep, creating high anxiety for me, which is probably also spiking cortisol. It is a wicked bag of tricks against the body.. I feel so incredibly frustrated that the life I once had a couple of years ago. The joy I had in life, would love going to my bedroom at night to crawl in and relax and fall asleep. Seems like such a distant past and unreachable at this point. It truly does bring on depression. :'(
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wenbird I know where you're at with that because I've been there too.
It is getting better now and I can actually look forwards to my bed at night, even if things are not yet perfect. So you can get through this.
For me, I needed a lot more estrogen to get me into the 450-650pmol range. At least, I assume I'm in that range but will confirm in a few weeks after bloods are done...
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Thank you so much for your kind responses and it does help a little to know that I am not alone in this. Sure is a total game changer for a girl who has always been high energy and high functioning. Some mornings after sleepless night I feel I have absolutely zero motivation.
What stage of perimenopause or menopause are you at? Do you still have periods? I am so happy to know that things get a little better. I am hoping once I am done having my periods we can get the HRT more regulated.
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Yes, I still have periods. Although they have become much lighter on HRT than before starting it, whatever that means. Maybe just because I'm taking a lot of progesterone (300mg continuous).
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How is your sleep on a weekly basis now that your HRT is optimized? Do you still have nights where you can’t sleep at all or is that gone mostly
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It's very rare to have a night where I don't sleep at all now. I had a few of those a year or so ago before I got estrogen up, plus many consecutive nights of 3 hours sleep a night - very hard to function.
I'm not sure my HRT is optimised yet, I need to do bloods to see what levels are. I still have light inner tremors and I still wake a few times a night but it's mostly momentary and then I get myself under again.
I am now getting about an hour of deep sleep, split over about 3 sessions a night - which is a new record. That only started the last few days. (I've only been on my current dosage just over a week.)
I still tend to wake early and then find it hard to get back to sleep, but 'early' is now about 6.30am instead of 4am. And this morning I actually went back to sleep for almost 2 hours with that old 'I am really tired and don't want to get up' thing I haven't had in FOUR YEARS.
So yes, I go to sleep relatively easily - within about 30mins now. (Used to lie awake for hours.) I do wake momentarily still a few times a night, but it's for split seconds and I go back to sleep again. (These get registered on the Apple Watch too, which is interesting.) I am getting much more deep sleep. And my idea of 'early' is much later than it used to be. But I do still have the light inner tremors, especially when I wake early. (Somehow this is connected with the waking.)
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Joziel could your improved sleep be due to you recently coming off of thyroid medication? Just curious.
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Hi Wenbird, I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this too. It is a horrific time with so many hormonal changes and you end up mor knowing whether you are coming or going! Sleep is even more important at this point in our lives and does seem to have a big impact on mood. I was really low last week and was ready to throw in the towel with hrt but after a few nights of better sleep on antihistamines and high dose vit D3 my mood has come back up & everything feels less overwhelming. I've decided to keep a diary of my moods/sleep on and off the utrogestan so I will have a better picture of whether things are working or need changing. I've also swapped tv for reading which is settling my mind more before bed. I don't think there's a magic bullet to sort sleep out but lots of things combined that might make it easier. Melatonin is another option that might help? Hope you're week is going Ok & things improve!
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Minusminnie, I don't think so - because the entire reason I am on thyroid medication, is because of these symptoms. It was a trial to see if starting thyroid meds could help them. Which it didn't at all.
I had these symptoms for nearly 3 years before starting thyroid meds and they continued the same regardless of what I did with thyroid meds, so no - I don't think coming off the thyroid meds is the reason I'm sleeping better, or I wouldn't have been sleeping with these symptoms for 3 years before I started them...
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I see it was just a passing thought on my part …take no notice of me !
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It's very rare to have a night where I don't sleep at all now. I had a few of those a year or so ago before I got estrogen up, plus many consecutive nights of 3 hours sleep a night - very hard to function.
I'm not sure my HRT is optimised yet, I need to do bloods to see what levels are. I still have light inner tremors and I still wake a few times a night but it's mostly momentary and then I get myself under again.
I am now getting about an hour of deep sleep, split over about 3 sessions a night - which is a new record. That only started the last few days. (I've only been on my current dosage just over a week.)
I still tend to wake early and then find it hard to get back to sleep, but 'early' is now about 6.30am instead of 4am. And this morning I actually went back to sleep for almost 2 hours with that old 'I am really tired and don't want to get up' thing I haven't had in FOUR YEARS.
So yes, I go to sleep relatively easily - within about 30mins now. (Used to lie awake for hours.) I do wake momentarily still a few times a night, but it's for split seconds and I go back to sleep again. (These get registered on the Apple Watch too, which is interesting.) I am getting much more deep sleep. And my idea of 'early' is much later than it used to be. But I do still have the light inner tremors, especially when I wake early. (Somehow this is connected with the waking.)
Thank you so much for all of your time. Sharing this with me. Sounds like our experience is quite similar.
Can you telll me more about the light tremors? Does it feel like light muscle twitching?
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Hi Wenbird, I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this too. It is a horrific time with so many hormonal changes and you end up mor knowing whether you are coming or going! Sleep is even more important at this point in our lives and does seem to have a big impact on mood. I was really low last week and was ready to throw in the towel with hrt but after a few nights of better sleep on antihistamines and high dose vit D3 my mood has come back up & everything feels less overwhelming. I've decided to keep a diary of my moods/sleep on and off the utrogestan so I will have a better picture of whether things are working or need changing. I've also swapped tv for reading which is settling my mind more before bed. I don't think there's a magic bullet to sort sleep out but lots of things combined that might make it easier. Melatonin is another option that might help? Hope you're week is going Ok & things improve!
Ugh I’m sorry it’s truly a rough time of life!
Do antihistamines help with sleep? What do you take?
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Yes, the tremors feel exactly like light muscle twitching.
Well, when they were at their worst a few years ago they actually felt like the bed was moving under me because I was shaking so much and it was in my core as well. I mean, the bed seemed to be moving and at first I thought my husband was scratching himself lying next to me. Then I thought... is he having a w*nk?!? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D But it went on and on with exactly the same rhythm and not even a slight pause ::) ??? ??? ??? ???
So then I sat up in bed quickly to catch whatever he was doing..... AND HE WAS FAST ASLEEP ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
At which point, I realised THIS WAS ME. :o :o
Anyway, the tremors are way better now. They feel like a light buzzing or fizzing and are mostly in my feet and calves, although I do occasionally get them in my hands during the night.
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Ugh I’m sorry it’s truly a rough time of life!
Do antihistamines help with sleep? What do you take?
My GP prescribed an older antihistamine called promethazine and it knocks me out completely for 8+ hrs. It's been a life saver over the years! Might be worth a try. I take it at about 8.30pm so not too sedated when I'm at work for 730am.
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Yes, the tremors feel exactly like light muscle twitching.
Well, when they were at their worst a few years ago they actually felt like the bed was moving under me because I was shaking so much and it was in my core as well. I mean, the bed seemed to be moving and at first I thought my husband was scratching himself lying next to me. Then I thought... is he having a w*nk?!? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D But it went on and on with exactly the same rhythm and not even a slight pause ::) ??? ??? ??? ???
So then I sat up in bed quickly to catch whatever he was doing..... AND HE WAS FAST ASLEEP ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
At which point, I realised THIS WAS ME. :o :o :D :D :D:D
Anyway, the tremors are way better now. They feel like a light buzzing or fizzing and are mostly in my feet and calves, although I do occasionally get them in my hands during the night.
That is hilarious 🤪 and not at all funny at the same time.!! I have the muscle twitches too. Feels so good to know I’m not alone in these changes!!!
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Well, there are also the proper muscle twitches which feel like involuntary mini-jerks. Especially just as trying to fall asleep - which jerks you awake. Sometimes those would be physical muscle twitches and sometimes psychological startles (called hypnic jerks)...
All this stuff is quite common when you talk to other women going through menopause and is stuff doctors should be really familiar with, but they will look at you like you are from outer space and then try to tell you that you have some awful neurological disease. I'm 100% sure it's menopause, I've just found too many other women with exactly the same stuff..