Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Pippa52 on August 13, 2022, 07:45:29 PM
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Hi lovely knowledgeable ladies
I would love some opinions/help/advice please. I have been all round the houses re HRT types(patches 2 sorts and spray) and doses due to both the shortages and also not being able to tolerate others. Cutting a very long story short for the last 2 weeks I have been back on Oestrogel which is what I was on happily for over 20 years. I was always on around 2 1/2 - 2 3/4 pumps over the years and am now on 1 1/4 pumps in the morning and same in the evening. My last Oestrogen blood test level was only 91 so quite low (I am post menopause and had surgical menopause due to severe endometriosis many years ago so no ovaries). I have never been right over the last year with all the swopping and changes but recently I have been really rotten. My symptoms now are acute anxiety coming in waves to the extent sometimes they are more like panic, very little or no sleep most nights now due to the panic and anxiety I just can't switch off ..some episodes of fast heartbeats (been checked out by a cardiologist last week and both heart and BP ok and not the cause) feel jittery, weak, headachey, some hot flushes and now pretty low mood as I am totally not having a life really. Logic tells me that probably my levels are too low but when I was on the patches I felt like it was far too much. (50 sometimes 62 on a patch) I have read various reports that the latest Oestrogel bottles appear to be delivering a somewhat weaker dose? I have the bottles with the yellow square on. I would be so grateful for some input - I am just at a bit of a loss really and bordering on desperation as probably the dose is too low but I am now really worried about increasing and making the anxiety even worse as it's pretty uncopeable with right now and once the gel is on it's on - there is no ripping it off if things become worse over 24 hours. Would be so grateful for some input/other people's experiences. I should add I am very sensitive to dose increase or decreases so would only go up or down incredibly slowly. Thanks ladies xx
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Pippa it sounds absolutely awful and I just wanted to send you some love. My reaction would be that it would be hard to see how it could be that your estrogen is too high at that level, but I understand the worry about increasing it after what happened last time. I do think different people absorb different products differently so it may be that you were really absorbing quite a lot of the patch vs the gel for example. I also think when you've got so far into a hole with not sleeping and anxiety etc that your body can get locked in a viscious cycle of it separately / in addition to the hormones. If it were me I would try slowly increasing and see if you notice any difference. I don't like to "advise" on this kind of thing but have you thought about also trying something for the anxiety and sleep? (Not instead of addressing the hormone issue, but as well as, just to get you out of this hole). There are a couple of good antidepressants out there that you could start off slowly on. Again I'm not saying this is what you should do, just posing the question! I really hope things start to improve for you soon xx
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Gilla999 thanks so much for your reply I really appreciate it. You are absolutely right re the vicious circle with sleep it just compounds it. Tonight I am going to take some Bach Rescue Night remedy - put lavender on my pillow and light a lavender candle. I do have some Kalm tablets but think they are daytime ones so might get some night ones on Monday. I am not great with drugs to be honest and I am going to be referred for some CBT which I would rather use to help but I totally understand pills are a lifeline and help so many but I think I would prefer to try the prescription drug free route first. Silly thing is I feel really confident if I could just get the dose right on my oestrogen I would be fine. Its not surprising my system is all over the place and I do know that it can take several months to get used to HRT and if the symptoms were minor then that would not be a problem. I know if I don't try going up slightly on the dose things won't change so I may well bite the bullet and increase the dose very slightly soon in the morning. Thanks again so much for your input xx
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Given your levels I also think it's extremely unlikely to be from too much oestrogen. They are exactly the symptoms I had from oestrogen deficiency. Every time I try to reduce the dose the anxiety and insomnia returns. I don't think you get hot flushes from too much oestrogen?
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Given your levels I also think it's extremely unlikely to be from too much oestrogen. They are exactly the symptoms I had from oestrogen deficiency. Every time I try to reduce the dose the anxiety and insomnia returns. I don't think you get hot flushes from too much oestrogen?
Thanks Sheila …. very interested to hear that when you reduce the dose you get anxiety and insomnia. Thanks so much really appreciate your input x
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I do agree Pippa that it sounds like it might be too low a dose. I seem to remember someone saying that the estrogen in the patches is something-hemihydrate 17b (someone help me here) and that the estrogen in other products can be something different. So maybe there is a difference between patches and gel.
I know from my own experience that my body does not experience estrogen I give it, in the same way that it experiences the estrogen it makes(!!). Yours doesn't either, because there must have been times when you were pre-menopausal and had very high estrogen levels and then much lower levels. And I'm assuming you didn't get these symptoms then. Because that is part of every woman's cycle. So I don't understand how this can be 'body identical' and yet here some of us are, having to be so careful about minute changes - when our bodies go low to super high to low again with our own cycles, pre-menopause. Ergo... there is a difference. What that is, I wish someone would figure out ;D ;D
Basically I know this stuff is all supposed to be body identical, but my body knows the difference and isn't getting the memo there ;D ;D... So I'm sure different products make a difference as well, and then there are the absorption differences which affect dosages individual women get too. I think some of us are much more sensitive than others to all this.
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Pippa I totally understand, and no drug is without side effects so definitely worth trying prescription free routes first and only going for that as a last resort! I wouldn't even normally suggest it to someone, it's only that I know from experience just how awful the no sleep-anxiety cycle can be and my heart breaks for anyone going through it, whatever the cause.
I agree with the other ladies on the cause - it's hard to see how it could be anything other than low estrogen, but I also 100% agree with Joziel and feel that my body knows the difference between my own E and HRT as well!
Have you always split the dose? I'm just wondering if applying it in the evening could be contributing (I always avoided doing that as tried it once and got a bit of a rush which affected my sleep). However I know from here that some ladies do it just fine. If that's a new thing could you try switching the dose to in the morning and seeing if that helps? And then increase to perhaps 3 or 2.75?
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Hi lovely knowledgeable ladies
I would love some opinions/help/advice please. I have been all round the houses re HRT types(patches 2 sorts and spray) and doses due to both the shortages and also not being able to tolerate others. Cutting a very long story short for the last 2 weeks I have been back on Oestrogel which is what I was on happily for over 20 years. I was always on around 2 1/2 - 2 3/4 pumps over the years and am now on 1 1/4 pumps in the morning and same in the evening. My last Oestrogen blood test level was only 91 so quite low (I am post menopause and had surgical menopause due to severe endometriosis many years ago so no ovaries). I have never been right over the last year with all the swopping and changes but recently I have been really rotten. My symptoms now are acute anxiety coming in waves to the extent sometimes they are more like panic, very little or no sleep most nights now due to the panic and anxiety I just can't switch off ..some episodes of fast heartbeats (been checked out by a cardiologist last week and both heart and BP ok and not the cause) feel jittery, weak, headachey, some hot flushes and now pretty low mood as I am totally not having a life really. Logic tells me that probably my levels are too low but when I was on the patches I felt like it was far too much. (50 sometimes 62 on a patch) I have read various reports that the latest Oestrogel bottles appear to be delivering a somewhat weaker dose? I have the bottles with the yellow square on. I would be so grateful for some input - I am just at a bit of a loss really and bordering on desperation as probably the dose is too low but I am now really worried about increasing and making the anxiety even worse as it's pretty uncopeable with right now and once the gel is on it's on - there is no ripping it off if things become worse over 24 hours. Would be so grateful for some input/other people's experiences. I should add I am very sensitive to dose increase or decreases so would only go up or down incredibly slowly. Thanks ladies xx
Hi lovely knowledgeable ladies
I would love some opinions/help/advice please. I have been all round the houses re HRT types(patches 2 sorts and spray) and doses due to both the shortages and also not being able to tolerate others. Cutting a very long story short for the last 2 weeks I have been back on Oestrogel which is what I was on happily for over 20 years. I was always on around 2 1/2 - 2 3/4 pumps over the years and am now on 1 1/4 pumps in the morning and same in the evening. My last Oestrogen blood test level was only 91 so quite low (I am post menopause and had surgical menopause due to severe endometriosis many years ago so no ovaries). I have never been right over the last year with all the swopping and changes but recently I have been really rotten. My symptoms now are acute anxiety coming in waves to the extent sometimes they are more like panic, very little or no sleep most nights now due to the panic and anxiety I just can't switch off ..some episodes of fast heartbeats (been checked out by a cardiologist last week and both heart and BP ok and not the cause) feel jittery, weak, headachey, some hot flushes and now pretty low mood as I am totally not having a life really. Logic tells me that probably my levels are too low but when I was on the patches I felt like it was far too much. (50 sometimes 62 on a patch) I have read various reports that the latest Oestrogel bottles appear to be delivering a somewhat weaker dose? I have the bottles with the yellow square on. I would be so grateful for some input - I am just at a bit of a loss really and bordering on desperation as probably the dose is too low but I am now really worried about increasing and making the anxiety even worse as it's pretty uncopeable with right now and once the gel is on it's on - there is no ripping it off if things become worse over 24 hours. Would be so grateful for some input/other people's experiences. I should add I am very sensitive to dose increase or decreases so would only go up or down incredibly slowly. Thanks ladies xx
I’m the same as you very sensitive which makes it hard to keep changing.
I’m 43 surgical and on patches. When I was on slower dose the anxiety was definitely worse and low mood. The hot flushes definitely are low estrogen but the other things can be too low or too high so it’s so hard. There is a 25 patch too or like the other said cut patches I do that x
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Pippa I totally understand, and no drug is without side effects so definitely worth trying prescription free routes first and only going for that as a last resort! I wouldn't even normally suggest it to someone, it's only that I know from experience just how awful the no sleep-anxiety cycle can be and my heart breaks for anyone going through it, whatever the cause.
I agree with the other ladies on the cause - it's hard to see how it could be anything other than low estrogen, but I also 100% agree with Joziel and feel that my body knows the difference between my own E and HRT as well!
Have you always split the dose? I'm just wondering if applying it in the evening could be contributing (I always avoided doing that as tried it once and got a bit of a rush which affected my sleep). However I know from here that some ladies do it just fine. If that's a new thing could you try switching the dose to in the morning and seeing if that helps? And then increase to perhaps 3 or 2.75?
Hi Gilla … thanks so much for your reply. You are spot-on in the fact that I only started splitting the doses when I went back on Oestrogel this time. When I was on it previously I used to do it in the mornings so you make a very salient point. The only reason I changed it was because it was suggested it would give a more even level throughout the 24 hours however I will certainly take on board your suggestion.
Seeing everybody’s lovely comments on here regarding their opinions that they also think it is low oestrogen levels I actually upped the dose a bit last night and I will do the same this morning. I did actually get some sleep last night and so far this morning the anxiety is less but whether that is a coincidence because I can’t think it could’ve kicked in that quickly but I do feel better for having had some sleep. I will continue on the slightly higher dose for another week and see how it goes because hopefully that will have given it some time to kick in. Thank you so much for your support and I hope so much all is well with you? Xx
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Am about to put spanner in the works, but I am better splitting the dose! I don't know whether it's because I have no ovaries, but I just feel on a more even keel with the split dose.
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Am about to put spanner in the works, but I am better splitting the dose! I don't know whether it's because I have no ovaries, but I just feel on a more even keel with the split dose.
Gnatty not a spanner at all .. really helpful information. I have no ovaries either ….like you I thought splitting the dose would even things out over the day. Really interesting food for thought. I think maybe what I might do is put my oestrogen on a lot earlier in the evening so say I will do it at 7 pm and 7 am and then hopefully by the time I go to bed the first hit will have dissipated somewhat. I’m so wary of changing too much too soon at the moment so I may try this first rather than trying to swap over to the morning and see how it goes. If I’m still having problems sleeping at least it’s something else I can try. Thanks so much for mentioning really appreciate it. It really is so true that what suits one person may well not suit another it truly is horses for courses xx
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Do you feel that you notice a bit of a hit then after you apply the gel? I shall pay attention and see if I can spot it! Do you feel it quite quickly? It is awful trying to get these hormones balanced esp as without ovaries we are so beholden to hrt to get what we need. On the positive side once you get stability hopefully it should stay that way as we are not subject to bodily fluctuations.....
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Do you feel that you notice a bit of a hit then after you apply the gel? I shall pay attention and see if I can spot it! Do you feel it quite quickly? It is awful trying to get these hormones balanced esp as without ovaries we are so beholden to hrt to get what we need. On the positive side once you get stability hopefully it should stay that way as we are not subject to bodily fluctuations.....
Gnatty…. I used to get a mega hit for the time I was swopped onto patches. All the years before I was on Oestrogel I never noticed it. I just thought it may be best if I don’t apply
it just before going to bed maybe? I will experiment 😂😂 As you say having no ovaries in one way does mean once the level is level it seems to stay right. Over the 20 years I was on Oestrogel before I never had to alter the dose so fingers crossed for us both on that one 🥰 xx
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I do remember my Meno doc saying to take the gel all on one go in the morning so as to get a good boost. This was ok for me for a while but then I found I was unable to physically fall asleep which was just awful. Things got better once I started splitting the dose and I also reduced the number of pumps slowly from 5 to now 3.5 per day. But what I would say is that testosterone makes a huge difference to how I feel.
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Gnatty … that’s really interesting regarding the testosterone. The meno
consultant did mention it to me but she said to get level on oestrogen first. I have what I hope will be my final appointment in September so I will ask her about testosterone again then xx
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Do do! It's a real game changer x
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Do do! It's a real game changer x
It’s now firmly on my wish and to do list!!👍🥰
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This might be what’s making the difference Pippa this time round on the oestrogel, compared with when you were taking it for 20 years.
Perhaps before your adrenals were making sufficient amounts of testosterone to balance you, but with age and stress they are now unable to do so.
M x
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I would say your symptoms are what I have for Estrogen deficiency. Perhaps try a different type.
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This might be what’s making the difference Pippa this time round on the oestrogel, compared with when you were taking it for 20 years.
Perhaps before your adrenals were making sufficient amounts of testosterone to balance you, but with age and stress they are now unable to do so.
M x
You may well be right it sounds more than likely .. thank you ….. I will most definitely pursue it … xx
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I would say your symptoms are what I have for Estrogen deficiency. Perhaps try a different type.
Hi Floo .. I have just changed 2 weeks ago to Oestrogel as neither patches or spray worked for me personally . I have slowly upped the dose of Oestrogel and have to say today have felt quite a bit better. Fingers crossed it lasts XX
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Fingers crossed it works for you
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Fingers crossed it works for you
Thanks so much Floo. Just had an oestrogen blood level test today so will be interesting to see what that comes back as x
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Hi Pippa, can I ask what your starting dose was, thanks Carolyn
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Hi Pippa, can I ask what your starting dose was, thanks Carolyn
Hi Kenny - I was on Oestrogel for many years before the HRT shortages. On starting back on it this time I was put on 2 pumps but I had been on a similar dose on another type of HRT so didn't start from scratch if that makes sense. I have gradually increased it to what I was on originally which is 2 and 3/4 pumps a day. Hope so much this helps x
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Do do! It's a real game changer x
Gnatty how long did it take for you to feel the benefits of testosterone? I’ve been using it for 11 days and can’t say I feel any better yet. Mood is still up and down, anxiety bad and lack of energy but I’m praying something shifts soon…
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Testosterone can be quite slow to help apparently. Like... 6 months.... although I felt improvements in about 3-4 weeks.
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Today I went for blood tests - oestrogen level, thyroid tests, liver and kidney function, FBC etc and joy of joy picked up the container to do the 24 hour urine collection to check for Catecholamines. I have to avoid certain foods etc for 48 hours prior to starting it so will do it on Sunday. Consultant just playing safe and checking everything out but have to say I'm really not worried re the results. I am pretty sure all the symptoms have been from the changes in types and doses of HRT over the past 4 months or so. Like I said - I'm coming back as a man! The Nurse taking the blood said it's disgusting the way women's health is sidelined sometimes. If men had the Menopause it would have been treated and sorted years ago :) Hope so much everyone is having a better day today xx
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What are catecholamines then?! Not heard of that one ;D
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Hi 2cats, yes I'm afraid its going to take a bit longer than 11 days! You may notice improvement in libido in just a few weeks. Other things like energy, sense of well being for me took another few weeks. And it's a gradual thing.
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What are catecholamines then?! Not heard of that one ;D
joziel ....Catecholamines are hormones made by your adrenal glands, which are located on top of your kidneys. Examples include dopamine; norepinephrine; and epinephrine (this used to be called adrenalin or adrenaline). Your adrenal glands send catecholamines into your blood when you're physically or emotionally stressed xx
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That’s interesting Pippa, I didn’t know that the nhs did this test. Or is it private?
What do they do though if the results are found to be abnormal, do you know? X
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Oh right, thanks for that explanation. How are they hoping to use these results to help you? I mean, anyone like us folks going through all this are going to be very physically and emotionally stressed ;D - but that's understandable right?
How are you doing at the moment?
I am doing okay throughout the days now, with almost no palpitations at all and normal blood pressure readings. (Have actually discovered I have excellent blood pressure around 105/65!).
However, night times are still a bit weird. I get into bed fine and, whilst I'm getting sleepy and dropping off to sleep, my heart starts doing the palps again and the fingers start up throbbing again. It is basically doing that all night, after that I think. I wake around 5am, feeling not very rested because I've been palping all night and dozing. I seem to be able to dream whilst palping, but not to get into deep sleep.
If only nighttimes would get better, like day times are now... As this was previously happening 24/7, it's a huge improvement to have it not happening in the day time now. So I have to think I'm on the right path.
Meanwhile, I called the doctor to see about getting beta blockers and she wanted to see me for 'a review' before prescribing anything. Then it turned out she is going on holiday tomorrow for a week and a half and couldn't see me before she went anyway. ::) So if I now want beta blockers I would have to describe everything to YET ANOTHER DOCTOR. :-\ This would be about doctor number 10 in the last year now.... And I don't know why she'd have to see me in person instead of just speak on the phone anyway, she only examined me last week.
But apparently she has done the referral to cardiology so I think I'm going to try calling the cardiology dept if I don't get a referral letter today or tomorrow....
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Joziel - just a thought, I remember ATB saying that she believed the magnesium Bisglycinate was causing her palpitations. I believe she stopped them because of this, but the downside to this could be an increase in anxiety.
You might want to test it out for a couple of nights, just to see. X
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Sure, I can do that easily. Although I thought it was supposed to stop the palpitations ;D ;D That was why I kept taking it!!
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In some apparently it does. I think women with palpitations tend to use magnesium taurine (or is it taurate?!!) instead. Anyway it begins with a T!
It might not be that but worth a go x
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Hi 2cats, yes I'm afraid its going to take a bit longer than 11 days! You may notice improvement in libido in just a few weeks. Other things like energy, sense of well being for me took another few weeks. And it's a gradual thing.
Thanks gnatty. My libido has not been low but wanted to see if T could bring other benefits. However, I can tell the T is increasing my libido which is hilarious considering my husband and I live separate lives in the same house! 🤣😢
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Hi lovely ladies -UPDATE!! oh my goodness. I have just had my telephone consultation with the Meno consult. My blood results were off the scale LOW at 69!!! They have never ever been that low. She said no wonder I had been feeling so awful. She also said this will be because of the many changes of HRT I have had over the past 4 months. I have only changed back onto Oestrogel for just over 3 weeks and she said that is why my levels are so low still as they take time to build up plus I will need to up the dosage. So I have to build up the dose really really slowly over the next 3 months and she wants me up to 3 pumps daily. She also told me on no account to split the gel dosage twice daily (funnily enough I had already 3 days ago gone back to doing the whole dose in the mornings and not dividing it... maybe that is one of the reasons I am feeling a bit better too). She said it is designed to be used in one go so you get the whole dose straight away and it will last 24 hours but important to apply it at the same time every day. So a very productive consultation. She also has prescribed me Vagifem and to continue using the YES OB applicators. Feeling a lot more positive now there is a proper plan in place and hopefully will start to feel human again. It does explain too why I am feeling so whacked out all the time. She knows the Cardiac consultant I saw and said he is great and she is going to write to him with an update of today's consult. She said the symptoms I have been getting will be down to the very low oestrogen levels. So weird as I have been feeling a lot better today and slept all night last night on the lower dose but maybe it is because it is being applied in one go. Very interesting that as I would have imagined that splitting the dose would even it out. Ho hum you live and learn....onwards and upwards! xxx
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Hi Pippa thank you so much for sharing with us your consultation. It is really helpful to learn that the gel should be applied in one go. When I was on 5 pumps I felt better when I split the dose and I wonder now if I'd I felt better that way because it was actually too high a dose!? Now I am only on three and a half maybe I will try it all in one go in the morning. Will report back if any improvement.
It's going to be an interesting journey for you now especially as you say you thought maybe you didn't need so much. But slow and steady wins the race and hopefully you will now get your levels up. Why did she particularly want you to go slowly, was it to try and reduce any titrating negative side effects.? Anyway sounds like a great consultation. Was it through the NHS or privately? Anyway best of luck, I bet you are happy to have a plan in place! X
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Hi Pippa thank you so much for sharing with us your consultation. It is really helpful to learn that the gel should be applied in one go. When I was on 5 pumps I felt better when I split the dose and I wonder now if I'd I felt better that way because it was actually too high a dose!? Now I am only on three and a half maybe I will try it all in one go in the morning. Will report back if any improvement.
It's going to be an interesting journey for you now especially as you say you thought maybe you didn't need so much. But slow and steady wins the race and hopefully you will now get your levels up. Why did she particularly want you to go slowly, was it to try and reduce any titrating negative side effects.? Anyway sounds like a great consultation. Was it through the NHS or privately? Anyway best of luck, I bet you are happy to have a plan in place! X
Hi Gnatty - thanks so much for your message. Yes it is really helpful to now have a plan in place - something to work to. I think you are right re the dose. The last 3 days I have put on the gel in one go in the mornings and although I am still on a very low dose of it (1 and half pumps a day) I have felt increasingly better over the past few days and today has been pretty good plus I slept from 10.30pm through to 6 am for the first time in many months so I do think you are on to something when you say about your dosage and how you needed more when you were splitting the dose when you were on 5 pumps. I am stupidly sensitive to dose changes of Oestrogen so that is why she advised me to increase very slowly to minimise feeling like I have drunk 5 cans of Red Bull in one go (never have btw!!! :) . I have some mg scales so its very easy to be precise with the increases. I had to go privately to the Meno consultant but she does do telephone or video consults. Thanks again for your lovely message. Please let us know if you do decide to use the gel in one go rather than split it - would be really interested to see how it works for you or not. Take care xxx
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hi Pippa,
really good to hear your news- it's such a relief when blood tests corroborate symptoms!
like you, i am struggling massively with the increases in oestrogel- am now on half pump per day and even that feels too much. but, ultimately we need it so good for you for powering ahead.
i think you mentioned something about a cortisol test- just wondered if you'd heard anything about that.
i've only been on the gel 2 weeks having prev been on the patch. i changed because patch was extremely erratic depending when i'd put it on. i think changing oestrogens is hard as well as bumping up the dose even without changing method- it's like you have to reset even though theoretically the same thing
anyway- onwards and upwards for us all :)
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hi Pippa,
really good to hear your news- it's such a relief when blood tests corroborate symptoms!
like you, i am struggling massively with the increases in oestrogel- am now on half pump per day and even that feels too much. but, ultimately we need it so good for you for powering ahead.
i think you mentioned something about a cortisol test- just wondered if you'd heard anything about that.
i've only been on the gel 2 weeks having prev been on the patch. i changed because patch was extremely erratic depending when i'd put it on. i think changing oestrogens is hard as well as bumping up the dose even without changing method- it's like you have to reset even though theoretically the same thing
anyway- onwards and upwards for us all :)
Hi Vintagefiend ....many thanks for your kind words. Yes so agree that it's actually a relief to know just why one is feeling so rubbish and also kind of makes you feel vindicated if that makes sense :) So sorry to hear you are also struggling with the oestrogen increases. Honestly I don't think we are alone it seems like many women are sensitive to dose changes let alone having to change products as well! I feel just the same as you as soon as I increase a dose even by a teeny amount. I do have the mg scales which have really helped as at least that way the upticks in dose can be accurate...they were only cheapie ones but seem to be ok. The Meno consultant said it was very early days re the gel for me and that was at coming up to 4 weeks so it's not at all surprising that you are still getting used to the gel. I have for the last 2 days actually started to really feel almost 'normal' again for the first time in months. It seems when you reach a certain level things do start to improve but she did say that it is not an overnight fix and it takes time to level out and settle down. My sleep some nights still isn't brilliant but still better than before. Hot flushes are getting less and no fast heartbeats again - so far. I am not going to get excited though just yet but to be fair I was on Oestrogel for many many years and it always worked well then so am hopeful it will again when I get to the right dose. Re the cortisol yes I was going to take a Medicheck test but I am actually now feeling much much less anxious even in the early mornings so will hang fire on that. I know they were testing adrenaline levels etc in the 24 hour urine collection thingy so will wait and see what they say. Like you I couldn't get on with patches either. One of them gave me the worst migraines ever and the other caused a bad skin reaction. Also I found they gave me a huge surge on the day and day after I put them on then fizzled and they never lasted the 4 days for me although loads of women get on so so well with them. This HRT lark really is such an individual thing as to what works for some and not for others. I so hope you will start to feel better soon. Last week I really thought this was endless but I am beginning (hopefully!) to see the light. The Meno consultant did say it takes at least 4 - 6 weeks after starting the gel to start to feel improvements and also longer to tweak the dose till you find the right level for you. How many pumps have you been told to get up to? xx
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thanks Pippa, for all the info
can understand holding off on the cortisol test- much less important in light of your improved symptoms- great to hear that you've had a better couple of days.
to be honest, i've been doing my own thing re doses- officially i'm on the 75mcg patch so obvs docs won't have a problem with my half pump oestrogel!
really helps to know it took you 4 weeks to get anywhere
i've put my body through a lot of changes these past few months so i'm going to stick with what i'm on and move up sloooowly!
you said somewhere oestrogen hrt changes leave you feeling hyper caffeinated which is a very good description :)
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thanks Pippa, for all the info
can understand holding off on the cortisol test- much less important in light of your improved symptoms- great to hear that you've had a better couple of days.
to be honest, i've been doing my own thing re doses- officially i'm on the 75mcg patch so obvs docs won't have a problem with my half pump oestrogel!
really helps to know it took you 4 weeks to get anywhere
i've put my body through a lot of changes these past few months so i'm going to stick with what i'm on and move up sloooowly!
you said somewhere oestrogen hrt changes leave you feeling hyper caffeinated which is a very good description :)
I think you are very wise. We know our bodies and how we feel and yes we can be guided by advice but you are so right to do the way forward you feel is right for you. The hyper caffeinated feeling isn't great with dose increases but it seems a lot of ladies feel like this and if the level proves to be right it does level out and go (thankfully!!) The Consultant did say that the oestrogen receptors get very inflamed if there are a lot of changes (hardly surprising with all the shortages of HRT there have been) but they do plateau and settle down when on a consistent and right dose. Hope so much you have a good day today x
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High estrogen left me feeling ON IT ;D ;D
Like, the world isn't moving fast enough for me. I want more, faster, stimulation. BRING IT ON.
Which was great for short periods of time but slightly exhausting, especially at 3am ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I second that feeling! It's not unpleasant (for me, I know others experience it as anxiety) but I am distinctly aware that it's not natural. I do however feel that getting your Progesterone and Estrogen balanced is just as important to consider as reducing your Estrogen necessarily. I've certainly found since increasing my Progesterone dose that the symptoms of high Estrogen are lessening.
Pippa so glad to hear you've had a better few days and that putting it on in the morning is working for you. It sounds like the way forward is to just continue to take it slowly now with any changes that you make. Keeping everything crossed that you continue to improve :)
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You might find this article interesting.
It’s suggesting that oestrogen is actually addictive.
https://www.menstruationresearch.org/2010/05/13/hooked-on-estrogen/
M x
Sorry the Berberine didn’t turn out to be the part of the cause Joziel. Worth a try though and hopefully you’ll get your answers soon.
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I think that Pippa, Vintage Fiend and I are all in the same situation in that we don't have to take progesterone. I did experiment two or three weeks ago with a progesterone cream I bought from the States. It was a pretty horrible experience. It made me too warm, foggy and and a bit low so I stopped it after a week. A few days after it had all settled down again thank goodness. I was worried I had done lasting damage! Now from reading up on adding in progesterone it is quite normal to have some pretty unpleasant symptoms for the first few weeks. So I could have carried on I guess. However I don't feel I have resilience to cope with that!! Maybe I'll try again at some later date. I think too that our bodies can make enough progesterone for our needs, I read this somewhere. Have a feeling from cholesterol but please dont quote me on that.... There is a surgical menopause help group in the state's I look at from time to time and I think it was from there I got that info. The general consensus on that website is we are better off without progesterone especially once we have the right levels of oestrogen. I am aware tho that there is another camp that voices the opposite opinion, ie we should take it even though we don't need it. My Meno Dr at Newson Health was definitely anti taking progesterone. It would be good to hear from others if their Meno drs are for or against progesterone for those of us that don't have wombs.
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I kind of think the truth is somewhere in the middle here, at least - for me - which is why I like Lara Briden's stuff.
By all that, I mean that I don't think progesterone is the solution to all ills but neither do I think it is an awful thing everyone should avoid. And I don't think the extremes about estrogen either. I totally believe some women when they say they need a blood level of 800pmol+ to feel okay. And I totally believe others who are not even sure they can tolerate a 25mcg patch. I totally believe some women who have debilitating side effects from progesterone and can't tolerate it even after persevering for months. And I totally believe others who really need it and seem immune to any negative side effects from it (like me).
Unfortunately I think many doctors get really polarised and set into their camp and way of reasoning and it then becomes very hard for them to step back into an unbiassed position and keep reassessing the evidence and revising their position. This goes for doctors on both side of the E and P thing.
For me, I'm not able to solve the entire world's mysteries when it comes to E and P and can only try to find a solution that works for me and my body. I'm reluctant to extrapolise from that to other people because it seems we are all so different. But I guess I do try to look out for people who may be experiencing a hormone in the same way as me.
But I think it's important to try to convey to women struggling the diversity of opinions out there so that, if the UK mainstream approach isn't working for them (as it didn't for me) they don't just give everything up and abandon themselves to zero hormones - but that they have a direction to go in, to research and investigate exactly which hormones they can take, in what quantities... Because surely taking some of our three hormones has to be better than none, as our ability to make our own declines.
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Hi ladies, sorry to jump in, I’ve just posted and saw this post. I have increased form Evorel 75 to 100 on Friday and I have had the most awful time, mainly low mood and horrendous headache! Should I wait for it to see if it settles or go back to 75 although I had terrible anxiety when on the 75? Just can’t seem to settle. Starting 200 utro on the 1st moving to continuous, hoping that may settle things. Any thoughts welcomed, been on HRT for over 3 years and can’t get it right but this is getting worse on the patches,been on patches since March x
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It's going to take more than 48hrs for your body to settle on a hormone change. If you wanted, you could split the difference and have 87.5 as halfway between 75 and 100. Otherwise, you need to give it more time to see what effect the dose change really has...
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Thanks Joziel, bloody hard going all this isn’t it? I popped on a 100 in preparation for the new patches which should arrive Tuesday? That’s a good idea,so just cut a small piece out of the 100? Xx I always worry I’ve gone the wrong way and may need less, I did feel like ripping it off this morning and popping a 50 on, your mind goes into over drive doesn’t it xx
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Just wanted to say I totally agree with you Joziel on the "two camps" thing as I have very much experienced and noticed this myself between meno experts.
Also I haven't yet read the article but Marchlove my personal experience is that I would 100% classify myself as having been addicted to Estrogen - I've joked about it in the past saying "My name's Gill and I'm an Estrogen addict". I have had / do have a truly awful time reducing my Estrogen (slowly) even when I know for a fact it's too high and causing my body problems as a result. This also isn't restricted to HRT - I believe that the problems started so early for me in Peri (aged 41, periods still very regular) pecisely because I went through two years of my own E soaring naturally and when it started to slowly reduce naturally I became hideously symptomatic even when it was still at a medium level. I've hardly seen this kind of thing talked about except for a couple of bits of research when it comes to ladies who've had an Estrogen implant, so very interesting to hear someone mention it!
Also just add to add on the topic of Progesterone - I completely agree everyone is individual and there's no "one size fits all". After a lot of trial and error you get to know what's true for your body xx
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Interestingly one of the sure signs of having too high oestrogen levels is feeling like you are addicted/ counting down to the next dose!
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Wow this sounds like me🙈 always thinking about the next patch change, what is house change it to etc etc. feeling awful and don’t know which way to turn. I’m a right old mess if I’m honest. X
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https://surmeno.blogspot.com/2006/03/symptoms-of-estrogen-imbalance.html
Have a look on this link, hope it works. The site is for women in surgical menopause but the symptoms of oestrogen imbalance I imagine would still be relevant for women in general.
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I second that feeling! It's not unpleasant (for me, I know others experience it as anxiety) but I am distinctly aware that it's not natural. I do however feel that getting your Progesterone and Estrogen balanced is just as important to consider as reducing your Estrogen necessarily. I've certainly found since increasing my Progesterone dose that the symptoms of high Estrogen are lessening.
Pippa so glad to hear you've had a better few days and that putting it on in the morning is working for you. It sounds like the way forward is to just continue to take it slowly now with any changes that you make. Keeping everything crossed that you continue to improve :)
Thank you so much Gilla. Yes daring to feel slightly optimistic - another good day today. Hope so much all is good for you xx
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Hi ladies, sorry to jump in, I’ve just posted and saw this post. I have increased form Evorel 75 to 100 on Friday and I have had the most awful time, mainly low mood and horrendous headache! Should I wait for it to see if it settles or go back to 75 although I had terrible anxiety when on the 75? Just can’t seem to settle. Starting 200 utro on the 1st moving to continuous, hoping that may settle things. Any thoughts welcomed, been on HRT for over 3 years and can’t get it right but this is getting worse on the patches,been on patches since March x
Flan I really feel your pain. Over the past 4 months having been switched from gel to spray to two lots of patches then spray and now back (thankfully) on gel and at long last seeing some light at at the end of the tunnel. The anxiety is absolutely awful it is so so hard to deal with. Little sleep as well and the feeling that things will never get better. All I can say is from personal experience that it does take time to level out - can you get a blood test to see what your oestrogen levels are? I know that is not the whole answer but it would give you a guide as to whether your oestrogen levels are too high. I was told once back on the right treatment that suits you it takes 4 - 6 weeks for things to start to really level out properly and 3 months and maybe more to be really ok again but of course women differ in how long some will probably feel loads better by then too. The most frustrating thing in all of this is tweaking the dose to get what is right for you. Might be worth asking for a blood test as a bit of a guide for you. Hope so much you start to feel better soon. The anxiety is hell to live with . Hugs xx
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I think that Pippa, Vintage Fiend and I are all in the same situation in that we don't have to take progesterone. I did experiment two or three weeks ago with a progesterone cream I bought from the States. It was a pretty horrible experience. It made me too warm, foggy and and a bit low so I stopped it after a week. A few days after it had all settled down again thank goodness. I was worried I had done lasting damage! Now from reading up on adding in progesterone it is quite normal to have some pretty unpleasant symptoms for the first few weeks. So I could have carried on I guess. However I don't feel I have resilience to cope with that!! Maybe I'll try again at some later date. I think too that our bodies can make enough progesterone for our needs, I read this somewhere. Have a feeling from cholesterol but please dont quote me on that.... There is a surgical menopause help group in the state's I look at from time to time and I think it was from there I got that info. The general consensus on that website is we are better off without progesterone especially once we have the right levels of oestrogen. I am aware tho that there is another camp that voices the opposite opinion, ie we should take it even though we don't need it. My Meno Dr at Newson Health was definitely anti taking progesterone. It would be good to hear from others if their Meno drs are for or against progesterone for those of us that don't have wombs.
Gnatty that's really interesting re the States. The gynae consultant that did my hysterectomy put me straight on to Oestrogel only and the Meno consultant I have been seeing advised against progesterone too. As always though I guess medical opinions will differ.
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Thanks Gnatty that’s a really interesting article, mine looks like high estrogen although I’ve only just increased so need to give it time I suppose x
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Thanks Poppa, I’ve actually got a blood test on Tuesday so hopefully they will flag up something as a guide. I’ve not felt this awful in a long time so maybe it is the patches not agreeing with me. My specialist feels I need more estrogen to even out the fluctuations and wants me to go up to 150🙈 x
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Thanks Poppa, I’ve actually got a blood test on Tuesday so hopefully they will flag up something as a guide. I’ve not felt this awful in a long time so maybe it is the patches not agreeing with me. My specialist feels I need more estrogen to even out the fluctuations and wants me to go up to 150🙈 x
I tried two types of patches the first one gave me the most horrendous migraines and the second one made me feel like I was drinking about 10 cans of red bull! I know they suit lots of women and it really is a matter of finding out which one suits you the best. It is a minefield but there is usually always an answer. So glad you have a blood test booked at least that will tell you whether your levels are too high or not x
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I am starting to think maybe patches are not for me! Will try the Estradot and hope they suit if not maybe another go with the gel. Appreciate your comments ladies x
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I am starting to think maybe patches are not for me! Will try the Estradot and hope they suit if not maybe another go with the gel. Appreciate your comments ladies x
Flan sadly it is a matter of trial and error - I hope so much the Estradot suit you. One of the reasons I like the gel is that the dose can be controlled so easily. As mentioned before I bought a cheap pair of mg scales so as I need to increase the dose I can do it accurately. Patches though suit loads of ladies and it might well be that Estradot will suit you brilliantly. I think I am a fast absorber so I would get a surge of oestrogen on the day and day after changing a patch which made me really jittery and then the next day it seemed to almost run out. I never made it to the 4 days. Everyone is so different though this is why it truly is horses for courses with HRT. Hope so much you have a better day today and that your blood test on Thursday will give you a guide as to your levels xx
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Thank you Pippa! So I’m sleeping really well which is such a bonus, the headache has subsided and manageable so hopefully that’s a sign it’s settling🤞 Will try the Estradot, I’m currently changing every 3.5 days as it does seem to run out? I have the gel as a back up as I know I absorb that but could never get the dose right that makes why I went into the gel? X
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hi pippa,
just want to say thanks for the info particularly about oestrogen receptors becoming inflamed by constant changes- that's def me over past few months- and especially good to know that they do evenyually plateau.
i'm afraid i just feel horrible on my half pump today- actually quite depressed/dark :( but, i think it took you 4 weeks to feel any better??
i'll hang on in there, i can't change things again
oh i f%@ing hate this!!
hope you continue upwards x