Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: vintagefiend on October 21, 2019, 10:51:08 AM
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Hi there,
I'll start by saying that I know we're not supposed to obsess over readings but please humour me!
i'm on HRT
my venous oestradiol is 150 p/mol- this was a private test- the doc at the company has stated it's within normal range but when i look at the range, it's very much on the lower side.
I've just turned 48 so feel that i should have good levels and, anyway, i'm damn certain i'm experiencing low oestrogen side effects- so i'm a bit pissed off that the doc glibly states that levels are fine.
I started two pumps oestrogel about 3.5 months ago and initially it did wonders for my mood- I was soooo very depressed and it was amazing.
But, the depression's come back- I feel awful and have some other likely symptoms of low oestrogen which were all initially eradicated by the oestrogel- hair falling out, acid reflux, utter exhaustion- (I'm on snri antidepressant which happens to control flushes- so i don't experience those, but quite possibly would otherwise!)
I have tentatively tried upping the dose (by half a pump) but actually feel worse when i do this!
However, before i even started the 2 pumps (back in June), I had been trying tiny doses: quarter, half pump and those, too, made me feel worse!! it was in desperation that i actually tried more (though it felt counter-intuitive given that less made me feel like shite!!)
But, as i say, miraculous!!
but here i am again- do i just bite the bullet and slap another 2 on (ie increasing to 4 pumps altogether) as this seemed to work before or what???!!
what is an optimal level for oestradiol when on HRT? For mood, for bones, whatever...also i am relatively young so feel i should have decent amount!
Thanks for any help :)
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Hi vintagefiend
I can't remember your story - do you take a progestogen of any sort? Womb/ovaries? Yes that is low if you are taking HRT but is only a spot result. More instructive are your symptoms so if you are not feeling good then maybe try to increase. having said that it's difficult if you are on ADs as well as, like you say, these mask the classic symptoms of low oestrogen such as flushes and sweats which are tell-tale signs., so you are left with the other symptoms to go on - and some of these can have other causes. There is the possibility of testosterone if you have low libido - but then this can be also cause by the ADs so tricky one that. If you have no ovaries then your T is probably likely to be low so if this is the case have you considered that? You are young to have such low oestrogen levels if these are an accurate picture of roughly what they are normally, so if you feel better adding more then with your doc's permission ( as you'll need more gel!) then why not do so, if it worked before?
There was a discussion about oestrogen levels and some links to ref ranges here:
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,45602.0.html
Hurdity x
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Hi vintage.
I have the same E level on HRT. But I have no ovaries. It's considered on the low side on HRT. And ideally should be a bit higher for bone health, But mine has been consistently low over many blood tests. . So I agree with hurdity that, depending where you are in meno and if ovaries are intact your level will possibly fluctuate and one test result doesnt give an overall picture. Having said that I also agree that if your symptoms are not controlled then it would seem that level is not enough for you as an individual.
With increasing. One piece of advice I was given by a meno nurse is increasing in increments. So dont jump straight from 2 to 4. You might feel symptom controlled at 3. So increasing slowly avoids "overshooting the mark" so to speak. I know the feeling of just wanting to double up to just get some relief. But if you take it gradually you have more chance of hitting the right level for you without "seesawing" up and down. Good luckxxxx
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Thanks very much, ladies!!
oh dear- i did get carried away and doubled up and really should have read what you wrote as do feel quite jittery and sick and mood no better!
Tomorrow i will put 3 on and stick with it.
I do have ovaries and am awaiting a hysterectomy (not full) as find progestogens hard to tolerate- so need to be womb-free.
i guess, strictly speaking, i'm still perimenopausal as last period was end Jan 2019 but i really feel like i'm winding down rather than having fluctuations.
but i totally take your point about it being a spot test.
i do know that my T is also in my boots but presume i should try to feel reasonable on oestrogen first- argh! i thought i was too!
i just wish this depression would go away- i want to feel like i did when i first took HRT :-\
thanks for being there.
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vintagefriend - at your age, I went from 2mg oral to 3/4 pumps oestrogel and a blob testim. Back then my level was tested by Studd about 2 hours after gel application and came back at 600pmol. I felt great but my levels started to drop as I wasn't absorbing the gel, but didn't realise it at the time and eventually plummeted to under 80pmol. My own gp will only do 1 hormone test per year so I had to go private for more blood tests. 150 is low for your age and I do understand feeling crap when trying to increase oestrogen again as it's happened to me but you should be higher. I've just remained on a 25 patch as I can't go higher without feeling ill but I'm fine on this and happier at age 57 to be on a lower dose and less prog.
Are you having the hysto because of prog intolerance?
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Thanks very much, ladies!!
oh dear- i did get carried away and doubled up and really should have read what you wrote as do feel quite jittery and sick and mood no better!
Tomorrow i will put 3 on and stick with it.
I do have ovaries and am awaiting a hysterectomy (not full) as find progestogens hard to tolerate- so need to be womb-free.
i guess, strictly speaking, i'm still perimenopausal as last period was end Jan 2019 but i really feel like i'm winding down rather than having fluctuations.
but i totally take your point about it being a spot test.
i do know that my T is also in my boots but presume i should try to feel reasonable on oestrogen first- argh! i thought i was too!
i just wish this depression would go away- i want to feel like i did when i first took HRT :-\
thanks for being there.
What progesterone are you on at the moment vintagefiend? If you still have ovaries then yes that is particularly low given the number of pumps you are using - even if you are still having some sort of cycle. If you've been taking cyclical HRT then you won't know whether you are peri or post because the HRT interferes with this. I presume you either have Mirena or cyclical progestogen?
Hope you feel better soon :)
Hurdity x
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Thanks Kilted and Hurdity-
I am supposed to be on utrogestan but have only taken it once since June- for about 7 days (100mg) vaginally so i had a "proper" period from that a couple of weeks ago but otherwise nothing- so i'm pretty confident that my last (true) period was end Jan.
my GP knows I'm doing this with the prog- i'll brace myself to do it again soonish (clear the diary!)
I've done a gazillion private oestradiol blood tests over the weeks and months and they always show post meno levels- there's never a reasonable reading!
so 150p/mol is higher than it has been with no HRT but seems it's not great on HRT.
Really useful for me to know that it's low and should be higher.
also very reassuring to know that, Kilted, you also felt crap initially when increasing oestrogel!- I'm going to persevere.
i'll also keep an eye on my levels to check absorption though it would definitely appear that my mood is a terrific indicator of this!!
yes, i'll be having the hysterectomy due to prog intolerance.
I'm actually relieved that my levels are low- i was terrified that they'd be normal and therefore i'd have no clue as to why i feel so goddamn awful.
cheers ladies- i do feel a bit better now that the initial hit of double oestrogel has eased off! and i'm really thankful for your reassurance :)
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Might also be worth trying a patch, I didn't seem to absorb the gel very well but have been fine with a patch
Jinja
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Might also be worth trying a patch, I didn't seem to absorb the gel very well but have been fine with a patch
Jinja
I was just about to say that Jinja. Oestrogel used to whoosh in and out of me, major peaks and dips. Now on a patch and much more steady delivery.
Vintagefriend - have nhs agreed to your hysto or is it private? I'm awaiting gynae appointment for the same reason and I'd be really interested in your experience.
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Thanks Kilted and Hurdity-
I am supposed to be on utrogestan but have only taken it once since June- for about 7 days (100mg) vaginally so i had a "proper" period from that a couple of weeks ago but otherwise nothing- so i'm pretty confident that my last (true) period was end Jan.
my GP knows I'm doing this with the prog- i'll brace myself to do it again soonish (clear the diary!)
I've done a gazillion private oestradiol blood tests over the weeks and months and they always show post meno levels- there's never a reasonable reading!
so 150p/mol is higher than it has been with no HRT but seems it's not great on HRT.
Really useful for me to know that it's low and should be higher.
also very reassuring to know that, Kilted, you also felt crap initially when increasing oestrogel!- I'm going to persevere.
i'll also keep an eye on my levels to check absorption though it would definitely appear that my mood is a terrific indicator of this!!
yes, i'll be having the hysterectomy due to prog intolerance.
I'm actually relieved that my levels are low- i was terrified that they'd be normal and therefore i'd have no clue as to why i feel so goddamn awful.
cheers ladies- i do feel a bit better now that the initial hit of double oestrogel has eased off! and i'm really thankful for your reassurance :)
Oo-er yes you really should do another course of utrogestan to shed that lining - even while waiting for a hysterectomy unless you know that it's going to be very soon! Yes clear the diary! If you are not absorbing though then maybe your womb lining won't be as stimulated as the oestrogen dose might lead one to expect? This being the case maybe your bleed will be light?
Hurdity x
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Hi again, ladies,
i'm def starting to feel less depressed- bloody hell! can't see myself ever being without HRT!
Jinja- that is a really good point- i may well consider a patch- i can feel the hit of more oestrogen now (literally as i type) and it's not very pleasant! i'd much prefer a more consistent dose. i wonder if estradot has been hit with supply issues?!
Kilted- i'm actually only awaiting the initial consultation but i'm pretty sure it'll just be a formality. i have seen someone privately before and they were going to refer me but i bottled it! i've "accidentally" seen a gynaecologist before when i was expecting to see a menopause specialist and he was fairly glib about a hysterectomy- seemed to be offering it to me!-but i didmt want it then- so i'm confident that i'll be able to put my case. just called to see where i'm at in waiting list and i've a long way to go before the initial consultation- ah well! good luck to you with all this.
Hurdity- I know! i'm being cavalier and it does frighten me but i feel so bad on prog- just awful! when i next go to docs i'm going to be assertive and ask for a scan.
as you say, maybe my lining isn't too bad given that i don't have very good oestradiol levels.
also my very recent prog-induced period was relatively heavy which was a relief.
but, thank you for your concern- i know i haven't taken much prog at all!
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Sorry- it's me again and i don't know if anyone will see this- but i crashed moodwise again yesterday and still pretty down-am questioning the oestrogel- for the sake of consistency i'll stick with it for a bit but do wonder if it's just going to be peaks and troughs all the way!
i'd love to know which patches you ladies are on?
thanks and if this is a bit of a "dead thread" i can always start a new one!
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Vintagefriend - I recognise that, I had it on gel too. Sandrena was less turbulent but patches are best for me. It might be worth trying a patch to rule out the crashes with your gel delivery. Also you can split application of gel 12 hours apart to try and stabilise your dose.
I've tried all the patches and my preference is fem7 oestrogen patch. It's a weekly patch and all the others are twice weekly. It doesn't bother me if it's once or twice a week as long as it's a steady delivery. I know there's shortages of patches just now but estraderm and fem7 are still available. There's also a patch called Progynova which is rarely prescribed as it's very expensive. Worth a try if you're struggling. You can get a prescription from your doc and either source through your pharmacist or online. Good luck.
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Hi vintagefiend - re the patches - I started on Evorel when i was late peri but the conti part didn't agree with me although the Evorel (oestrogen only) part was fine. Since then ie mid 2007 I have been exclusivley on Estradot so was very reluctant to part with them in view of the current shortages! However no choice so dispensary gave me Estraderm which I have been on for just under a month now I think. Surprisingly i feel absoutely fine on them so far (fingers crossed) so if you can get these then great although they are very large so feels like a plastic bag attacehd to my butt after the minute Estradot!
All of these are twice weekly patches but I now change them every 3 days (for about the last 6 months or so). Personally wouldn't want to take the once a week patches re sticking issues , baths, jeans etc etc but of course many women love them as can forget about them. Sometimes i wonder how the oestrogen levels remain high after a week and whether there is more of a dip with the 7 day ones - especially if they come slightly unstuck - haven't looked up the info though!
Hurdity x
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brilliant!
thanks you so much, ladies- i feel armed with information!
i think in the meantime i will split the gel- it's certainly reassuring to know that i'm not the only one to experience this with oestrogel.
by far the best i've felt this week is the evening after the 4 pump morning dose-after feeling initially quite battered by it, i felt so calm and normal- slept like a baby and woke up feeling good. then applied 3 pumps and not great since then.
i know i'm analysing to the max and that it's v early days in terms of the increase and i guess my body is adjusting and recalibrating constantly.
i hold on to the fact that i did at one point feel gloriously normal so i should be able to recapture that :)
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vintagefriend - you may well need 4 pumps a day. You could try 2 am and 2 pm. Some ladies need an 8 hour gap, others a 12 hour gap. As ever with hrt, you just need to find your sweet spot.
We're all searching for the gloriously normal!
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Hi Kilted- and apologies just realised that you responded!
well, i'm slowly feeling better on 3 though still quite low at times- i strongly suspect i'll need to up it to 4 but i'll plod on for a bit longer on 3. once i'm stable in terms of oestrogen i'll def look into testoterone.
thank you!
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No problem vintagefriend, I'd forgotten too! Hope the gel continues to ease the symptoms. Low mood is tricky. I think testosterone defo helps with that.
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Hi VintageFiend
I know we spoken before on here, I'm 48 too. I had hysterectomy, kept ovaries, for different reason but same outcome. It really helped me realise that I couldn't tolerate progesterone and that my body was still having some form of cycle.
I now see a nhs gynaecologist- she's brilliant and I'm lucky that all my blood tests back up my symptoms. Saw her in summer and felt amazing, oestrogen levels of 1100 pmol. Saw her recently, felt weepy, even cried on way home, had applied gel 2 hours before, oestrogen levels 91 pmol. Due to high levels in summer, I'd reduced from 5 to 4, applied twice a day. Testosterone at 0.4.
Been suffering from digestion symptoms, poor sleep, flushes and hair loss. So this week I've gone back upto 5 pumps, 3 in am and 2 in Eve. Also started tostran - a tiny smear every other day.
I think some of us need high doses, been told I can go to 6 pumps if needed. I know other members have suggested patches but if there's a shortage maybe you are better staying with gel.
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Hi MIS71MUM
Yes, I remember you!
Sorry just checked this thread- thank you so much for responding.
actually that's all very helpful- particularly to know that levels can plummet like that- i'm in the year leading up to official menopause - nearly there! and imagine that my oestrogen levels are going down if they're moving at all.
for sure i'm not feeling the energy i felt in the summer.
some of us need a lot, evidently!
i'm finding it a bit tricky increasing- the immediate symptoms of more oestradiol proving a bit much so i'm increasing slowly as of today 3.5 pumps and sticking to it.
great that you no longer have the need for prog in your life!
i have an initial consultation in december re hysterectomy- so, i feel like things are moving- might even ask if they'll give me oestradiol blood test tho they'll prob tell me it's gp jurisdiction (and gp won't do it) but worth a try.
it is very reassuring, as you say, when blood tests back up symptoms!!
really hope the 5 pumps works for you.
can i ask how long you've been on the tostran?
thanks :)
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I now see a nhs gynaecologist- she's brilliant and I'm lucky that all my blood tests back up my symptoms. Saw her in summer and felt amazing, oestrogen levels of 1100 pmol. Saw her recently, felt weepy, even cried on way home, had applied gel 2 hours before, oestrogen levels 91 pmol. Due to high levels in summer, I'd reduced from 5 to 4, applied twice a day. Testosterone at 0.4.
Been suffering from digestion symptoms, poor sleep, flushes and hair loss. So this week I've gone back upto 5 pumps, 3 in am and 2 in Eve. Also started tostran - a tiny smear every other day.
I think some of us need high doses, been told I can go to 6 pumps if needed. I know other members have suggested patches but if there's a shortage maybe you are better staying with gel.
Wow, I cannot even imagine how I would feel on that high a level. I have been on 50mcg Evoril Patches past 20 months and have been feeling utterly dreadful so went to a private GP. Found out my oestrogen levels were 44 pmol and Testosterone 0.4 nmol - it at least showed me why I was feeling so awful. I'm now on Oestrogel and Testogel. Have to stay on 2 pumps frustratingly, until my BP is down but at least there is some light at the end of the tunnel - power is knowledge and all that :-)
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yes, heavenly, it's pretty stratospheric, isn't it?!!!
good luck on your 2 pumps- 44pmol very low- no wonder you felt bad.
i'm interested in your testogel! I know that my T levels are 0.18 so would obvs like to get that reading up- i thought i had to wait until oestradiol better but looks like your doc happy for you to do it in tandem with oestrogel (and same for MIS71MUM by the looks of it)
I have a black market sachet of testogel ;D- just sitting there on my dressing table- i'm v tempted!
hope it works well for you.
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yes, heavenly, it's pretty stratospheric, isn't it?!!!
good luck on your 2 pumps- 44pmol very low- no wonder you felt bad.
i'm interested in your testogel! I know that my T levels are 0.18 so would obvs like to get that reading up- i thought i had to wait until oestradiol better but looks like your doc happy for you to do it in tandem with oestrogel (and same for MIS71MUM by the looks of it)
I have a black market sachet of testogel ;D- just sitting there on my dressing table- i'm v tempted!
hope it works well for you.
I don't think 2 pumps is going to make much difference to me, equates to the same as the 50mcg I was on before with Evoril Conti patches, but who knows, maybe I will absorb the gel better! As soon as my BP is normal, I will be able to up the dosage.
Re that black market Testogel...do be careful....though beards are very fashionable at the moment.... :o ;D
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yeah i'll prob leave off the testogel for now!!- i need to sort my oestradiol levels first.
well, i hope your BP allows you to take more oestrogel and that it suits you better than the patches- it's frustrating that we often end up going private as GPs/specialists bloody rubbish- i've thrown so much money at this!!
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Hi VintageFiend
I've have had tostran for a while but not dare take it properly. I've only been taking it for 4 weeks.
I'm now taking 3 pumps in morning and 2 in evening. My testosterone levels have been about 0.40 so they are low whilst my oestrogen was 91 pmol. My specialist was quite happy to start the testosterone whilst my oestrogen levels were low.
I'd always hoped that I could take that much oestrogen that my cycle would be knocked out but that has never quite happened.
Good luck with your appointment in December.
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thanks MISS71
I remember taking lots of oestrogel a couple or more years ago in hopes of stopping my cycle but it just added to it and i was completely overwhelmed by oestrogen!!
now, further down the line, i havent had a period since end jan (with exception of one manufactured by utrogestan) and i presume you're in a similar situation? but you think that you might be having something of a cycle? that's interesting and i wonder if i'm experiencing similar.
great that you have such a good gynaecologist in the NHS. In my area (Leeds), the gynaes deal only with surgery/hysterectomy- they are not interested in menopause symptoms/treatment beyond that.
There is one specialist meno GP at the main hospital who is there for menopause, but this person's manner is awful and i doubt very much she'd be open to prescribing testosterone!
So, it's really good that you can give your experience with a good gynaecologist (and then I can go badger my GP!)- the pooling of info and experience on this forum is brilliant!
Good luck to you too :)
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I now see a nhs gynaecologist- she's brilliant and I'm lucky that all my blood tests back up my symptoms. Saw her in summer and felt amazing, oestrogen levels of 1100 pmol. Saw her recently, felt weepy, even cried on way home, had applied gel 2 hours before, oestrogen levels 91 pmol. Due to high levels in summer, I'd reduced from 5 to 4, applied twice a day. Testosterone at 0.4.
Been suffering from digestion symptoms, poor sleep, flushes and hair loss. So this week I've gone back upto 5 pumps, 3 in am and 2 in Eve. Also started tostran - a tiny smear every other day.
I think some of us need high doses, been told I can go to 6 pumps if needed. I know other members have suggested patches but if there's a shortage maybe you are better staying with gel.
Wow, I cannot even imagine how I would feel on that high a level. I have been on 50mcg Evoril Patches past 20 months and have been feeling utterly dreadful so went to a private GP. Found out my oestrogen levels were 44 pmol and Testosterone 0.4 nmol - it at least showed me why I was feeling so awful. I'm now on Oestrogel and Testogel. Have to stay on 2 pumps frustratingly, until my BP is down but at least there is some light at the end of the tunnel - power is knowledge and all that :-)
Good news is that my BP readings at home for the past 6 days have been very good, one more day to go then I take the readings to my NHS GP. Then I can email my private GP and then hopefully, she will give me the go ahead to up my oestrogen dose. Just keeping everything crossed, not sure how long an upped dose takes to feel any effect but cannot wait to start! :-)
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Hi there,
It's so tricky getting the dose right, isn't it? I'm 51 and have been using patches for about 3 and a half years but during that time I've had to increase the dose twice to manage sudden return of symptoms (presumably due to further drops in my oestradiol levels). I was using Estradot but it became unavailable where I live, so I switched to Evorel a few months ago. Supposedly an equivalent dose, but I seem to absorb the Evorel better and ended up with a lot of migraine visual auras because my oestradiol levels were much higher. Last week, my GP agreed I needed to drop to a lower dose of evorel but now that's unavailable so I'm having to switch to a gel. I imagine that will require a few more weeks faffing about with the dose!
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Heavenly Blue- great news that your BP normal! I hope that you feel the benefits of more oestrogen sharpish!!
And Hi, Wilks- good luck with the gel if that's what you end up with.
Well, it's been over a month since I started increasing my oestrogel doses- in all honesty i am a bit up and down so not sure i'm absorbing much. think i'll prob have to have another blood test.
i'm currently using 2 pumps morning and 1.5 pumps evening but am waking up depressed.
certainly no symptoms of excessive oestrogen (no boob ache!) just feel crappy.
i do wonder about testosterone- my level was last measured at 0.18 but that's the highest figure i've ever had (since having it measured over past 2 years) so i really am low on testosterone.
i don't know what to do -feeling rather despondent.
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I've just discovered my oestradiol level is 84, despite being on SIX PUMPS of oestrogel per day. I've been feeling rubbish.
Been on oestrogel for several years. Before that I tried elleste duet. Am now on estraderm 100. I don't seem to be absorbing these either. I've currently got three stuck to my bum (as advised by meno specialist).
I seem to just not absorb oestrogen. Ugh. So fed up of feeling like crap. I'm too young for this shit.
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sorry to hear that, ALPHABETTI, that's a lot of oestrogel
how long have you been on the estraderm? how old are you?
bloody crap, isn't it?!
2 posters upthread have suggested fem7 and estradot respectively- i may well try one of those.
i put some testosterone on yesterday and i'm going to persevere with that as testosterone in my boots! feel quite shabby today as result of it but that's just par for the course.
have you had yours checked?
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hi hurdity
i'm in need of your wise knowledge
i had my estrogen levels tested a week ago and because they forgot to test SHBG i had to go back and retest
but it's interesting so a week ago they were estrogen 368 nmol testosterone 0.7 nmol then when i had them tested couple days ago estrogen was 113 nmol and testosterone 0.9nmol so in a week they have fluctuated that much !
i'm currently on 2 pumps estrogel and ovestin cream .
the only thing i've done different in that week is add in progesterone for 4 days would that of lowered the estrogen level or am i just getting bad highs and lows from the gel ?
i adding in progesterone to see if it would help with the amount of watery discharge i'm getting and it did cause i guess drys the vagina , but i've noticed each time i use ovestin recently last 2 months despite being on it a year it is burning and burning last few days after i've loads more discharge just wondering if something else going on i've got pain to down below and really uncomfortable is this Va still or do think some infection going on i was giving thrush treatment by way of vaginal peasant but made no difference i'm just sick of being damp down there . does ovestin stop working or should i increase it !
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Hi Sammiejane - I've just seen your comment and Alicess's detailed outline of the factors affecting hair etc on the other thread so I hope this has helped you understand a bit more that it's not a simple - add this and then that will happen? Stop this and then that will stop happening etc
Like she said a spot test does not necessarily mean your oestrogen levels are fluctuating any more than anyone else's - it depends on the time of day and also the time of day relative to when you put the gel on. The testosterone test is more or less the same but in any case this is inaccurate at very low levels so you should again go by symptoms. If you have low libido/response (and not taking anti-depressants or other meds that can also blunt your libido/response) then it is likely you have low T. In any case I think you are in surgical meno ie no ovaries? If so you can assume your T will be low anyway and a trial replacement could be advantaegous - although important to make sure your oestrogen levels are reasonable.
Adding progesterone should not lower oestrogen.
If you are getting burning from using the Ovestin when you didn't before then I would get this checked out in case of infection or thrush. However it could be as a result of worsening VA from low oestrogen levels - as you say your levels are measuring low anyway?
I love your "vaginal peasant" ;D - autocorrect typos are funny sometimes!
Why not change to Vagifem rather than ovestin which you say you have been using for a year? This would have less of a lubricating effect as it is not cream based, so at least won't contribute to the discharge, if that is making the discharge worse? Normally if you suspect VA is worse then you would increase vaginal treatment but in your case i would first get it checked out by the doc, and then if no infection or thrush. maybe ask to get (your vag area and genitalia) checked out by someone (GUM clinic? - sorry I know nothing about these - not in my rural locality as far as I know) - to see if there is obvious VA. If still present and you are worried about discharge then perhaps switch to vagifem?
These are just a few thoughts and someone else may well say something completely different!
Hope it helps a little anyway.
Hurdity x