Menopause Matters Forum

Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: MIS71MUM on September 10, 2019, 02:33:10 PM

Title: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: MIS71MUM on September 10, 2019, 02:33:10 PM
Hi everyone
Not been on the forum for a while - been doing really well on my 5 pumps of gel, so I've now reduced to 4. 

I have a question about the gel. previously I have always managed to get Oestrogel in the cylinder shape and it stated UK Pump Pack on the box.  This week, I have received it in a "vosene" shaped bottle!  This has happened to me before, but it was Oestradose and had labels all over it.  This batch is all in English and its called Oestrogel!! Never had this before - has anyone else?

I'm prepared to give it a go - but does anyone have any thoughts or received similar.  In the past, when I used Oestradose, I had a massive return of symptoms.  I've only ever used the Oestrogel in the past.

This batch expires in February 2022 so is newer compared to the cylinder batch of November 2021.

Thank you
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: MIS71MUM on September 10, 2019, 02:54:29 PM
Just wonder if the "vosene" shaped bottle may now be the new thing!  I have compared cylinder type with "vosene", and they are no differences whatsover, its just the shape and slightly different pump dispenser.

Does it tell you on your stickers where it's re-packaged?  I have no stickers.

I'm wondering if others will notice a change in their supply.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 10, 2019, 06:56:10 PM
MIS71MUM - I guess companies change their product shapes and text/design every now and again for aesthetic reasons.

The product leaflet inside the box will tell you where it was manufactured (should be by Besins, Belgium - or is it France?!) and whether it was repackaged and/or distributed by another company. If repackaged, this does not involve opening the actual bottles/canisters to expose the gel which is held in a sealed pouch inside the bottle (so I've been told!).

I wouldn't worry though - it is all the same product! Sounds like it is also newly manufactured so should be in a good state to be effective....

So glad to hear you are doing well - and long may it last :)

Hurdity x

Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: bear on September 10, 2019, 08:36:03 PM
Hi MIS71MUM,

Do you mean the dark green Vosene bottle from when we were young? My sister uses Oestrogel, I will ask her what bottle she's getting now. What about Oestrodose? Isn't it sold in France?

BeaR.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 10, 2019, 09:00:30 PM
Hi
I have been on the GEL but given DOSE, which is re-packaged in Doncaster.  (Only noticed that because it is where I live!).
Boots say the DOSE is the generic parallel import, and there could be inconsistencies with the product.  For example, I notice that 3 pumps of DOSE are different sizes, some more runny, whilst 3 pumps of GEL are like peas in a pod.
I think the DOSE is cheaper, and also easier to get hold of, and yes Boots did blame 'B'.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 10, 2019, 09:24:42 PM
Hi bear

Does your sister just use estrogel ? Or does she combine this with a progesterone ?

Has she suffered any hair thinning on the gel mainly scalp hair thinning ?

My hair has been thinning since being on HRT estrogen only it's mainly scalp my thyroid iron ferritin levels all fine and my estrogen level back in June was 104 and testosterone 0.6 but it appears I'm not obsorbing the gel well even though it suit me apart from weight gain and thinning hair as my levels dropped from 195 to 104 my menopause want me to increase from 2 pumps to three but I get so irritated and anxiety kicks in mood goes angry and I'm so tired I'm wondering if it due to low non existent progesterone as I e had hysterectomy and ovaries removed so don't need progesterone but I'm wondering if my body does and if this can help hair as I read we have progesterone receptors in our scalp ?

Please advise bear
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: bear on September 10, 2019, 11:51:50 PM
Hi Sammiejane,

My sister is on oestrogel only. She had a hysterectomy and unilateral oophorectomy (1 ovary removed), around 10 years ago and was put on oestrogel immediately after the op.

I think hair thinning is probably from lack of oestrogen, not from the gel. I had hair thinning (mainly on scalp) and I was never on the gel. This is menopause and ageing related, I guess.

If your oestrogen levels are low on 2 pumps and side effects are unbearable on 3 pumps, maybe you could swap to patches? I personally think the gel is a waste of time and money, only 10% is absorbed and many ladies are using more than 4 pumps to keep symptoms at bay.

I don't think progesterone is the missing link, but surgical menopause is very different from natural menopause so maybe you do need a bit of progesterone. I hate the stuff but everyone is different. I don't think you would get it on the NHS though. On the other hand, if your oestrogen levels increase with the patches, you could start testosterone, which is well known to improve hair growth.

I'm sorry I can't help you, I'm not on HRT and my sister lives abroad, but I will text her, maybe she can be of more help. I'm sure other ladies on here will help you. There's a thread on surgical menopause, maybe you can find some answers https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34701.0.html

Good luck!

BeaR.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 11, 2019, 07:29:52 AM
Hi
I have been on the GEL but given DOSE, which is re-packaged in Doncaster.  (Only noticed that because it is where I live!).
Boots say the DOSE is the generic parallel import, and there could be inconsistencies with the product.  For example, I notice that 3 pumps of DOSE are different sizes, some more runny, whilst 3 pumps of GEL are like peas in a pod.
I think the DOSE is cheaper, and also easier to get hold of, and yes Boots did blame 'B'.

JayJay - Boots is wrong. It is a parallel import but NOT a generic. There is NO generic estradiol 0.06 % gel. Oestrogel/Oestrodose are the same branded products produced by Besins so there should be no inconsistencies. A generic product would be lableed just that "Estradiol 0.06 % gel" and could have completely different fillers. This is an important distinction. There is a whole long thread dedicated to this topic where I posted in detail ( verbatim) my responses from Besins. It goes off on fanciful excursions, tangents and red herrings from time time and almost invokes conspiracy theory - nevertheless the info is the same. Here is the thread: https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,40586.msg692139.html#msg692139

I appreciate that the (pump) mechanisms might be slightly different but you will see from Besin's response (don't have time to look now!) that they should be tested for compliance (in terms of the amount pumped). There are more likely to be differences in how you  absorb gel from the same bottle depending on the temperature of your skin, the products used on your skin, the temperature of the bottle, and the ambient temp as well as the area that you spread it over. It can never be exact!

I am thinking that maybe - finally- the parallel import has names the prodeuct correctly and they have produced canisters for the UK market - in view of all the confusion (and maybe the e-mails they keep receiving  ;) !).

Sammiejane - why don't you post your query on a separate thread as you will probably get more responses as not the subject of this thread so more will read it elsewhere?

MIS71MUM - will be interested to hear what it says on your leaflet re manufacture and distribution!

Hurdity x

Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 11, 2019, 03:27:54 PM
Mis71mum

Have u had hairloss on 3/4 pumps of the gel ?
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: bear on September 11, 2019, 03:36:13 PM
BeaR - I absolutely love my Oestrodose - 1 little pump is a QOL changing dose for me and far from a waste of time and money.

Ah yes, I was talking about ladies who need more than 4 pumps. Glad it works for you!

Bear
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: MIS71MUM on September 11, 2019, 03:59:26 PM
Hi All

Yes I did notice some thinning of hair at the front last year when I felt that my levels on Oestrogen were quite low.  At the same time, I'd started testogel so put it down to a hormonal imbalance and stopped the testogel until I got my oestrogen levels up.

I then started using Plantur 39 shampoo which I think helped as I could see tiny hairs growing at the front of my scalp.  It's not cheap but you can it for 3 for 2 in Boots.  They do Shampoo, Conditioner and Tonic. 

Thanks Hurdity - yes I think you are right in that Oestrogel has been revamped!

Both Cylinder and Vosene Bottle have the same patient info leaflet.....and both are manufactured in Belgium and distributed in the UK by Besins London.  There is no mention of repackaging or Doncaster for that matter  ;D!!!

So it appears that the oestrogel is now in oestradose shaped bottles - just to keep us on our toes.





Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 13, 2019, 01:51:06 PM
I appreciate all your responses.   Thank you, Hurdity.
Thoroughly understand I will never feel as good again as I once did, but just would like to get the best 'me' I can at the moment.
Must say I have been happy with the gel generally, although it is a bit of a pain (what isn't??!).
However, I do have concerns with my hair thinning, which I think has got worse.  It may of course be due to general ageing, but whatever is causing it - I am not happy.  The front and temples are particularly bad, and my hairdresser says it could be 'hormonal' but I didn't push her any further as she is young and obviously thinks I am just an old bag, so why should I really care?
Have tried the test gel, and although I did feel energised on it (1 teeny blob twice per week), I noticed after 2 or 3 weeks that strong, dark hairs had started growing on my upper lip.  A 14 year old boy would have been proud, but it really put me off as the hair on my head is fair and fine and I have little body hair, which is a good thing.
I like the convenience of the patches - is there a patch which makes your hair grown thick and fast (oest only, as I am on prog Ugest) ?
If it could also make me tall, slim and gorgeous with a smaller nose, then that would be a bonus  ;)
Jay
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 13, 2019, 07:29:10 PM
Mis71mum

What estrogen are u on and what dose .?

Thanks
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 13, 2019, 08:48:35 PM
Mis71mum

What estrogen are u on and what dose .?

Thanks

if you look at MIS71MUM first post in this thread you will see the oestrogen she is using and the dose.

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 13, 2019, 08:59:12 PM
I appreciate all your responses.   Thank you, Hurdity.
Thoroughly understand I will never feel as good again as I once did, but just would like to get the best 'me' I can at the moment.
Must say I have been happy with the gel generally, although it is a bit of a pain (what isn't??!).
However, I do have concerns with my hair thinning, which I think has got worse.  It may of course be due to general ageing, but whatever is causing it - I am not happy.  The front and temples are particularly bad, and my hairdresser says it could be 'hormonal' but I didn't push her any further as she is young and obviously thinks I am just an old bag, so why should I really care?
Have tried the test gel, and although I did feel energised on it (1 teeny blob twice per week), I noticed after 2 or 3 weeks that strong, dark hairs had started growing on my upper lip.  A 14 year old boy would have been proud, but it really put me off as the hair on my head is fair and fine and I have little body hair, which is a good thing.
I like the convenience of the patches - is there a patch which makes your hair grown thick and fast (oest only, as I am on prog Ugest) ?
If it could also make me tall, slim and gorgeous with a smaller nose, then that would be a bonus  ;)
Jay

 ;D - if only eh?!

The patch won't have any different effect on hair than gel as it's all estradiol - except you might absorb a different amount from one than the other. Oestrogen itself won't make your hair thin - it's what makes us feminine - as well as having a decent amoiunt of testosterone ( for hair growth not femininity). The balance needs to be right ( between Oestrogen and T) I think for maximum benefit.

Maybe you are reacting to one of the fillers in the gel? Have you looked up the ingredients (is it oestrogel?)? I think there are women who are sensitive to one of the ingredients ( there aren't many in oestrogel)?

I've been using Estradot patches for years. Currently 62.5 mcg. My hair is much much thinner than it used to be - but it isn't thinning as such though - well not noticeably - but you expect that after menopause (thinner hair) - due to general reduction in oestrogen and teststerone levels (presumably) despite some replacement.  The levels (from HRT) are nowhere near what they are when I was fertile and menstruating! Gone are the thick lustrous locks!!! Straw comes to mind now!!!

If you look at most very old ladies their hair is very thin - so I presume this is hormonal as levels drop off considerably and especially testosterone, androgens generally towards the end of our lives?

Unless you have an underlying condition causing the hair thinning ( I have no expertise on this but there are others on here who do...  maybe do a search from the home page - but not sure what you would search for as it's quite a general topic....) then you need more hormones!!

I do sympathise though. Hope you find an answer to thickening your hair!

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 14, 2019, 12:11:38 PM
Hi all

I have spoke to a tricologist who specializes in hair loss and generally women even going through menopause don't necessarily have to have thin hair it's all to do with hormonal imbalance

Between all three sex hormones estrogen progesterone and testosterone as women age there ovaries stop producing as much estrogen and progesterone as disappeared and testosterone is higher , all 3 hormones need to be supplemented through hrt I believe to achieve a balance .

When women's ovaries are removed they loose all 3 hormones and what hrt does is bring levels back to when we were in our child bearing years pre menopausal or pre peri menopause in order to achieve this all 3 hormones need to be supplemented to get a balance , when ovaries are removed hormones plummet if you add in estrogen yes u feel slightly better but if like me it's not enough something's missing and that is because the ratio of estrogen to now progesterone and testosterone is higher creating an imbalance I believe progesterone and testosterone need to added progesterone isn't in our bodies just to protect the uterus it also has an effect on our brain our bones receptor cells in our bodies .

I am in Estrogel 2 pumps and having not lost any hair 5 years after hysterectomy and suddenly loosing hair after adding in estrogen then maybe the above theory is right because my other hormones are still low but I also believe that maybe Estrogel does cause thinning scalp hair I have just swapped to a patch to see if hair is any different I'm experiementing if not I will go back to the gel unless I feel better on the patch then I will add in progesterone , I swapped to a patch because I wasn't obsorbing from the gel and the higher I went the worse I felt I believe due to more of an imbalance .
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 14, 2019, 12:34:02 PM
Hi all

I have spoke to a tricologist who specializes in hair loss and generally women even going through menopause don't necessarily have to have thin hair it's all to do with hormonal imbalance

Between all three sex hormones estrogen progesterone and testosterone as women age there ovaries stop producing as much estrogen and progesterone as disappeared and testosterone is higher , all 3 hormones need to be supplemented through hrt I believe to achieve a balance .

When women's ovaries are removed they loose all 3 hormones and what hrt does is bring levels back to when we were in our child bearing years pre menopausal or pre peri menopause in order to achieve this all 3 hormones need to be supplemented to get a balance , when ovaries are removed hormones plummet if you add in estrogen yes u feel slightly better but if like me it's not enough something's missing and that is because the ratio of estrogen to now progesterone and testosterone is higher creating an imbalance I believe progesterone and testosterone need to added progesterone isn't in our bodies just to protect the uterus it also has an effect on our brain our bones receptor cells in our bodies .

I am in Estrogel 2 pumps and having not lost any hair 5 years after hysterectomy and suddenly loosing hair after adding in estrogen then maybe the above theory is right because my other hormones are still low but I also believe that maybe Estrogel does cause thinning scalp hair I have just swapped to a patch to see if hair is any different I'm experiementing if not I will go back to the gel unless I feel better on the patch then I will add in progesterone , I swapped to a patch because I wasn't obsorbing from the gel and the higher I went the worse I felt I believe due to more of an imbalance .

Sammiejane - I agree. We do need all 3. I'm extremely intolerant to progesterone but I've found myself using very small amounts of progesterone cream when I think it's appropriate. I believe there are some available online which gynaes advise is suitable for balance. This is not for uterine protection but to balance oestrogen, particularly in hysterectomised women as they are almost barren of any hormones.

You might find it useful to have a look at HysterSisters website if you haven't already. These ladies often use small amounts of progesterone cream to balance their oestrogen. If you're sure your oestrogen level is optimal and have ruled out thyroid, anaemia or vitamin b deficiencies your hair shedding may be attributable to either progesterone or testosterone imbalance.

I shed hair on Oestrogel, not masses but definitely shedding and this stopped when I moved to patches so hopefully you'll see a difference now you've changed. I wasn't absorbing well on gel.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 14, 2019, 12:40:17 PM
Hi
Very interested in your comments, as I have just replied to SJ as I think we have similar issues re thinning hair on the Oestogel and a possible hormonal imbalance.
I do find the gel difficult to rub in, so maybe it is not absorbing as it should although I use it on the soft skin of inner thighs.
I have not had children, nor a hyster, for info.
Which patch have you swopped to?
Were you recommended a specific patch to prevent hair loss/thinning?
Jay
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 14, 2019, 12:54:40 PM
I appreciate all your responses.   Thank you, Hurdity.
Thoroughly understand I will never feel as good again as I once did, but just would like to get the best 'me' I can at the moment.
Must say I have been happy with the gel generally, although it is a bit of a pain (what isn't??!).
However, I do have concerns with my hair thinning, which I think has got worse.  It may of course be due to general ageing, but whatever is causing it - I am not happy.  The front and temples are particularly bad, and my hairdresser says it could be 'hormonal' but I didn't push her any further as she is young and obviously thinks I am just an old bag, so why should I really care?
Have tried the test gel, and although I did feel energised on it (1 teeny blob twice per week), I noticed after 2 or 3 weeks that strong, dark hairs had started growing on my upper lip.  A 14 year old boy would have been proud, but it really put me off as the hair on my head is fair and fine and I have little body hair, which is a good thing.
I like the convenience of the patches - is there a patch which makes your hair grown thick and fast (oest only, as I am on prog Ugest) ?
If it could also make me tall, slim and gorgeous with a smaller nose, then that would be a bonus  ;)
Jay

 ;D - if only eh?!

The patch won't have any different effect on hair than gel as it's all estradiol - except you might absorb a different amount from one than the other. Oestrogen itself won't make your hair thin - it's what makes us feminine - as well as having a decent amoiunt of testosterone ( for hair growth not femininity). The balance needs to be right ( between Oestrogen and T) I think for maximum benefit.

Maybe you are reacting to one of the fillers in the gel? Have you looked up the ingredients (is it oestrogel?)? I think there are women who are sensitive to one of the ingredients ( there aren't many in oestrogel)?

I've been using Estradot patches for years. Currently 62.5 mcg. My hair is much much thinner than it used to be - but it isn't thinning as such though - well not noticeably - but you expect that after menopause (thinner hair) - due to general reduction in oestrogen and teststerone levels (presumably) despite some replacement.  The levels (from HRT) are nowhere near what they are when I was fertile and menstruating! Gone are the thick lustrous locks!!! Straw comes to mind now!!!

If you look at most very old ladies their hair is very thin - so I presume this is hormonal as levels drop off considerably and especially testosterone, androgens generally towards the end of our lives?

Unless you have an underlying condition causing the hair thinning ( I have no expertise on this but there are others on here who do...  maybe do a search from the home page - but not sure what you would search for as it's quite a general topic....) then you need more hormones!!

I do sympathise though. Hope you find an answer to thickening your hair!

Hurdity x

Hi Hurdity
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.
I think the Holy Grail lies in the balance of the hormones, as you said, and it is possible that I am not absorbing sufficient estrogen from the gel.  This would be a shame, because the gel is relatively easy to use, but I would change to a patch if necessary.
Do you think it is likely the prog Ugesteron (sp) is causing the hair thinning?
Jay
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 14, 2019, 12:56:36 PM
Hi
Very interested in your comments, as I have just replied to SJ as I think we have similar issues re thinning hair on the Oestogel and a possible hormonal imbalance.
I do find the gel difficult to rub in, so maybe it is not absorbing as it should although I use it on the soft skin of inner thighs.
I have not had children, nor a hyster, for info.
Which patch have you swopped to?
Were you recommended a specific patch to prevent hair loss/thinning?
Jay

Hi JayJay - I've pretty much worked my way through them all and find I absorb differently on each one. Estradot made me feel ill, really ill, not sure why, Evorel were the most powerful initially and then tailed off quickly, femseven were good but defo didn't last 7 days, more like 5 - sooooo, I've settled on estraderm. For me, they have a really even dose life - no obvious peaks and troughs, but this is obviously only my personal experience.

I also take a lot of vitamin c and vitamin b supplements, the b supplements include high biotin which is essential for hair growth, along with a hair skin and nails supplement. It's also worth having your ferritin levels checked, mine were borderline recently so I've been glugging on Floradix. It's all worked, not sure which elements and possibly all in combination, but shedding has stopped and I can see new growth. It's taken 2-3 months, it's not overnight but I feel better overall with the supplements.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 14, 2019, 01:09:01 PM
Kilted Cupid

Can I ask what patch you swapped to and also what progesterone cream u use ?

Also have you added in testosterone.  ?
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 14, 2019, 01:17:47 PM
Kilted Cupid

Can I ask what patch you swapped to and also what progesterone cream u use ?

Also have you added in testosterone.  ?

Yes, of course, I currently use a 25mcg estraderm patch, changed twice weekly, a tiny blob of testim twice per week and am currently eeking out FemSeven sequi patches on a 6 week cycle. I'm well post meno.  I cut the femseven in half so it's the same dose as my oestrogen patch. Please bear in mind, we're all very different in how we absorb and I'm not advocating estraderm as the hair growth patch, rather, it's being absorbed and that's what's helping, in conjunction with the supplements. If you haven't had a recent blood test for thyroid, ferritin, b vits and oestrogen, then that's a good starting point and may reveal some deficiencies you didn't know you had. The oestrogen alone won't solve the hair shedding if there's additional deficiencies. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 14, 2019, 01:26:38 PM
Hi kilted Cupid

My blood test revealed normal everything vit d ferritin iron thyroid etc my hair loss is hormonal

My estrogen levels were 104 and testosterone 0.6 according to menopause this is low and Gp said this is normal can't win but was on Estrogel and suffered thinning scalp hair but then wasn't obsorbing well on 2 pumps so my levels dropped from 195 to 104 I have swapped to Estradot 75 purely because hair loss listed as rare and with Estraderm it was frequency unknown which it what I read for Estrogel although some sites said it causes thinning scalp hair so I'm going to see how patch does although I feel my vagina is dryer on the patch ? But won't know how hairloss will be I hope it stops maybe I need balance of all 3 hormones even though I had hysterectomy x
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 14, 2019, 01:40:18 PM
Sammiejane - that's a low oestrogen reading. Although tests are not an absolute indication of levels, they are an indicator of low, medium and high levels, and yours is low. FYI, gp's always say satisfactory if it's within their range - this doesn't mean it's satisfactory for you. My go told me a reading of under 50 was satisfactory as it was within post meno range. My levels plummeted on Oestrogel and I'm pretty sure that's what caused hair thinning.

If you have your other test results, it might be worth posting them and other ladies who have expertise on readings can comment, I know there's some on here.

If I were you, I'd keep going with patch for a few months, get tested again and if oestrogen levels have increased you can consider adding other hormones. You're in, some would say, the enviable position of not having to take prog so hold off until you've got your E levels up. With levels as low as yours, I'd imagine that's what's causing the hair loss. There are no patches indicated for hair growth, it's just a matter of finding one you absorb well and makes you feel well.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 14, 2019, 02:58:24 PM
Thanks kilted Cupid

I'll stick to the patch but already in 3 days have had to increase it to 75mg but why is it the more estrogen I take the more I sweat could this be low progesterone causing sweating ? Or low T
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 14, 2019, 03:08:39 PM
SammieJane - it could well be a rapid increase in E that's causing the sweats. I've had that happen, particularly when switching from gel to patch. I automatically assumed it was a drop as sweats = low E, but not always, they can and do happen with a rapid increase. I think you've gone from 2 pumps to 75 patch? That patch is higher E than what's approximated for 2 pumps. 2 pumps is around a 50 patch, give or take, so you've essentially added another pump. Stick with your patch and try to stick to the same dose for at least a month unless you start to feel really unwell.  Take stock then and increase or decrease as necessary. Do you know your own personal reaction to high/low levels?
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 14, 2019, 03:18:16 PM
Hi kilted Cupid

What progesterone cream are u using ?
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 14, 2019, 06:13:49 PM
Hi Sammiejane - I don't use a prog cream anymore as I found the effects built up and made me depressed and spacey. Prog creams on this forum = can & worms. Some are pro and some are anti but a quick search of OTC progesterone cream will reveal that any discussions on such usual end up in Handbags At Dawn scenario with fur flying in all directions.

This is just my opinion, and I'm not medically qualified, but I've been round the HRT block a few times and for more years than I care to remember; GET YOUR OESTROGEN LEVEL STABLE. I cannot emphasise this enough Sammiejane, because if you start adding dribs and drabs of other hormones, you'll end up in a pickle not knowing what's doing what, and may exacerbate your hair shedding as your body is in a spin.

One step at a time. Oestrogen first, it needs to be at least 200 pmol, so that's twice what you are just now and I bet you'll feel so much better when you're there. I think you should drop back to a 50 patch as that's around the equivalent of what you had in gel. Easy and slow and you'll get there.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 14, 2019, 06:35:58 PM
Hi KC
Your post to SJ makes a lot of sense and I can relate to the issues, especially getting the oestrogen amount correct.
After three reasonable years on Oestrogel +Uter, I am experiencing hair loss and some other difficult symptoms. 
The past couple of weeks have been very difficult, as I have been feeling unwell on top of this, and therefore finding just everyday things difficult to cope with.
Could you explain what 200 pmol is, relating to gel?
Can you recommend a patch which is 'hair friendly' or do you think the prog is the cause of hair loss?
Interesting post from Hurdity today - she says that oestrogen is the feminine hormone, therefore should not affect hair growth in an adverse manner.  So is it the prog?  I dropped the T when I started sprouting large black ones on my upper lip!
Have had no children, still all intact down there, but have been on OCP most of my life, many different ones as they were very high dose in the early days.
Have also tried the otc prog cream in a pump, and actually I did get on with it quite well. 
My dentist (lovely lady) says my body is used to a high level of hormones.
Feel I am so close to getting this right.
Have a good Saturday night y'all
Jay
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 14, 2019, 06:49:22 PM
Hi JayJay - sorry you're feeling unwell, I can most definitely relate to that. 200pmol is the blood reading of Oestradiol when the blood was drawn. Our Oestradiol levels differ throughout the day and therefor, it's not possible to be absolutely accurate about levels when they're drawn, however it's an indication of how much circulating oestrogen you have. My understanding is that 200/250 is a good, reasonable level where most meno symptoms would be relieved. That said, some ladies need much higher levels to feel their best ie. 500+ to relieve all symptoms. You're own sweet spot can only be determined by having a blood test fairly regularly until you feel at your best. Many meno specialists prefer to work on symptoms alone.

There is no one type of oestrogen product which is hair friendly, as absorption is really the key. If you find your hair loss coincides with the return of other low E symptoms, that's probably what it is - low E. If it's been 3 years since you used CCP then I expect your body is now used to bio HRT and not the very high synthetic levels of E that CCP gives and your dentist isn't really qualified to give that advice. Have you had a blood test recently? Are you taking Utro conti?
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 15, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
Hi KC
Thank you for your reply.
My gyni said that blood testing was not a great deal of use as it is a ‘snapshot' and would have to be carried out every day for a month, at the same time each day - pretty much what you said, really.
I take Utro 7 days per month, then have a small bleed of about two days.  I don't actually mind the bleed, nor do I appear to react badly to the prog.
I did read somewhere (Philip Kingsley trichologist) that Angelique had a hair friendly prog, but I believe this is a pill, now maybe discontinued in th UK.  I woulf prefer topical oestrogen if poss, either patch or gel.
Balance would appear to be the key, but I am worried about taking too much oestrogen.
Regards
Jay
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 15, 2019, 05:21:36 PM
Hi jay jay

Everyone assumes low estrogen causes hair loss ! I disagree as I had no estrogen or low estrogen for 4 years before starting hrt and didn't have hair loss now I'm on estrogen hey I'm shedding hair?

Plus I know people who have optimal levels of estrogen and are still shedding hair which would indicate that the estrogen itself is the problem I remember being on Microgynon 30 synthetic hormones in the pill and never had hair loss . And the pill overrides your natural hormones.
I'm at a loss as I've changed to a patch and hair is shedding more plus my vagina more dryer ? And sweating increased since stopping the gel I will give a little longer but maybe just doesn't suit me or I need a balance with progesterone and testosterone
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 15, 2019, 05:46:45 PM
Hi SJ
I too was on various OCP for many years, starting with the old fashioned high dose, down to the lowest dose (20) until I WAS 59, when the Doc refused to give me any more.
No hair thinning or loss through these years, and my periods were light.  All good.
Straight into meno symptoms when I came off the pill, so onto hrt and eventual hair problems and heavy bleeds.
Have spent most of today reading through posts on this site and don't think I have come to a definite conclusion regarding my way forward.
Someone today did say that the important thing is to get the estrogen levels to a ‘sweet spot', then move forward from there.
Please keep in touch and let me know how you get on.
Best wishes
Jay
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 15, 2019, 07:13:50 PM
Hi KC
Thank you for your reply.
My gyni said that blood testing was not a great deal of use as it is a ‘snapshot' and would have to be carried out every day for a month, at the same time each day - pretty much what you said, really.
I take Utro 7 days per month, then have a small bleed of about two days.  I don't actually mind the bleed, nor do I appear to react badly to the prog.
I did read somewhere (Philip Kingsley trichologist) that Angelique had a hair friendly prog, but I believe this is a pill, now maybe discontinued in th UK.  I woulf prefer topical oestrogen if poss, either patch or gel.
Balance would appear to be the key, but I am worried about taking too much oestrogen.
Regards
Jay

Hi jayjay - your gynae is right but, a blood test for all sex hormones, thyroid, ferritin and vitamins b & d once a year is useful for all post meno women and of course surgical meno women to see where there levels are and what my have changed. Some of my last results were not optimal, particularly ferritin and I've made changes to try and bring them into a more stable level. It's really up to you, but if something feels persistently ‘off' I'd have a blood test and take it from there. Angeliq has an anti androgen prog which can help ladies with hormone related acne and possibly hair issues. The prog is made from Sprionolactone and is different from any other progesterone or testosterone derived prog. I've tried Angeliq and I liked it, but,  it's low dose oral oestrogen and I found the prog too dominant. My gynae said I could top it up with a pump of gel as it's heavy on prog. That didn't help me, probably because I don't absorb gel well. It also gave me VA as due to its anti androgen element it just dried everything up. It also dampened libido.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 15, 2019, 07:19:05 PM
Hi SJ
I too was on various OCP for many years, starting with the old fashioned high dose, down to the lowest dose (20) until I WAS 59, when the Doc refused to give me any more.
No hair thinning or loss through these years, and my periods were light.  All good.
Straight into meno symptoms when I came off the pill, so onto hrt and eventual hair problems and heavy bleeds.
Have spent most of today reading through posts on this site and don't think I have come to a definite conclusion regarding my way forward.
Someone today did say that the important thing is to get the estrogen levels to a ‘sweet spot', then move forward from there.
Please keep in touch and let me know how you get on.
Best wishes
Jay

JayJay - your levels on CCP would drop considerably on HRT. Synthetic oestrogen is, I believe, 3 times more potent that bio oestrogen, so if you were on 1mg EE that equates to 3mg bio E or 4 pumps of gel, give or take. You might find that increasing your gel would help with your hair issues, your body has taken a severe drop.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 15, 2019, 08:51:23 PM
Hi jay jay

Everyone assumes low estrogen causes hair loss ! I disagree as I had no estrogen or low estrogen for 4 years before starting hrt and didn't have hair loss now I'm on estrogen hey I'm shedding hair?

Plus I know people who have optimal levels of estrogen and are still shedding hair which would indicate that the estrogen itself is the problem I remember being on Microgynon 30 synthetic hormones in the pill and never had hair loss . And the pill overrides your natural hormones.
I'm at a loss as I've changed to a patch and hair is shedding more plus my vagina more dryer ? And sweating increased since stopping the gel I will give a little longer but maybe just doesn't suit me or I need a balance with progesterone and testosterone

Sammiejane - the CCP does override your hormones but microgynon 30 contains the equivalent, roughly, of a 150mcg Oestradiol patch or 6 pumps of gel. That's a lot of oestrogen, which of course, younger women need but we need less as we get older. The women you know who have optimum levels of oestrogen and still shed may also have an underlying health issue they're not aware of and there's also a genetic element. I have read articles which say that very high levels of oestrogen can cause hair shedding, but they'd need to be really high. You seem determined to add testosterone and progesterone into your hrt but please consult your gynae before you do in order that your levels are monitored.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 16, 2019, 01:49:16 PM
Hi kilted Cupid

What progesterone cream are u using ?

Hi Sammiejane - I don't use a prog cream anymore as I found the effects built up and made me depressed and spacey. Prog creams on this forum = can & worms. Some are pro and some are anti but a quick search of OTC progesterone cream will reveal that any discussions on such usual end up in Handbags At Dawn scenario with fur flying in all directions.

This is just my opinion, and I'm not medically qualified, but I've been round the HRT block a few times and for more years than I care to remember; GET YOUR OESTROGEN LEVEL STABLE. I cannot emphasise this enough Sammiejane, because if you start adding dribs and drabs of other hormones, you'll end up in a pickle not knowing what's doing what, and may exacerbate your hair shedding as your body is in a spin.

One step at a time. Oestrogen first, it needs to be at least 200 pmol, so that's twice what you are just now and I bet you'll feel so much better when you're there. I think you should drop back to a 50 patch as that's around the equivalent of what you had in gel. Easy and slow and you'll get there.


Sammiejane - I really wouldn't waste your money re the OTC progesterone cream. It is very expensive and very weak and any effect is most likely to be placebo (although placebo effect can be powerful sometimes). I agree with Kilted Cupid that having a decent oestrogen level is first and foremost the primary objective of HRT and if you have a womb, then having a progestogen that you can tolerate in order to achieve this. After that then T replacement should be conisdered and especially after surgical menopause.

Kilted Cupid - have you been a member of this forum before or know someone who is? Nice to know of returning members and what they were called previously as some of us "old" hands remember members from years back and can say hi!

Oh dear this thread has gone completely off topic - we must apologise to MIS71MUM and anyone else looking for info on Oestrogel, as that topic was covered in the first few posts!  ::)

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 16, 2019, 02:00:28 PM
Hurdity, I can assure you, the effects I had from OTC progesterone cream WERE NOT placebo. It's rather offensive to suggest they were.

SammieJane - I hope you're not confused by all the conflicting opinions on HRT. The rule of thumb is, get your oestrogen level stable and add other hormones from there. Good luck.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: dangermouse on September 16, 2019, 06:32:23 PM
The progesterone is the creams is micronised so exactly like Utrogestan but in more normal quantities, rather than the overdose you get hit with on the Utro.

It used to make my cycles return to 28 days so defo not placebo. There is a lot of nonsense written about compounded creams and sadly those who haven't used them believe it, when they could in fact greatly help them.

Like any hormones though you have to get the balance right and that is tricky to do when they're surging about so much in peri and early post meno.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 16, 2019, 08:06:16 PM
Dangermouse - I agree entirely with what you say; otc progesterone creams have a progestogenic effect, no doubt about that. I've never used them to control a cycle so I don't know their effect in that respect but in terms of exerting the effects of progesterone without the sledgehammer effect of utrogestan, they work. I can fully understand why surgical meno women use them to balance their oestrogen replacement as they have a calming effect and most definitely help with sleep. I think the trick, like all hrt, is finding just the right amount for balance. The ladies on hystersisters always provide a useful experienced-based view.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 16, 2019, 10:23:26 PM
Hi KC
I too have used otc prog creams in the past, (internet and EBay) and found them to be calming and helpful with lack of sleep and anxiety.
Read so much adverse press about them that I thought I must be delusional, and confined them to the back of the wardrobe with the rest of my stash.
Back to Oestogel - and balance thereof - herein lies the key, it would appear.
So to phone GP tomorrow to request blood tests.
Battle Royale, no doubt.
I sometimes think it's a good thing I don't carry a gun.  ( Joke ). 🤠
Good luck y'all
Jay Jay
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 17, 2019, 09:22:58 AM
Hi jay jay

Everyone assumes low estrogen causes hair loss ! I disagree as I had no estrogen or low estrogen for 4 years before starting hrt and didn't have hair loss now I'm on estrogen hey I'm shedding hair?

Plus I know people who have optimal levels of estrogen and are still shedding hair which would indicate that the estrogen itself is the problem I remember being on Microgynon 30 synthetic hormones in the pill and never had hair loss . And the pill overrides your natural hormones.
I'm at a loss as I've changed to a patch and hair is shedding more plus my vagina more dryer ? And sweating increased since stopping the gel I will give a little longer but maybe just doesn't suit me or I need a balance with progesterone and testosterone

Sammiejane - the CCP does override your hormones but microgynon 30 contains the equivalent, roughly, of a 150mcg Oestradiol patch or 6 pumps of gel. That's a lot of oestrogen, which of course, younger women need but we need less as we get older. The women you know who have optimum levels of oestrogen and still shed may also have an underlying health issue they're not aware of and there's also a genetic element. I have read articles which say that very high levels of oestrogen can cause hair shedding, but they'd need to be really high. You seem determined to add testosterone and progesterone into your hrt but please consult your gynae before you do in order that your levels are monitored.

Hello KC
I found your post fascinating, especially in relation to mcg equivalents to the OCP, as I was on Marvelon OCP pill (brilliant for years) which is a 30 mcg.
You say a patch 150 contains 150 mcg.  Sorry to appear stupid, but a patch lasts for 3.5 days, so would that be the equivalent release of approx 42.86 mcg per day ?
How many pumps would this equate to daily ?
Do apologise for bothering you, but this specific information is exciting me, as I have been unable to source it elsewhere in a comprehensive form.
Regards
JJ
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 17, 2019, 09:27:57 AM
JayJay - I think the daily release rates are available on each patch but the equivalent dose is the overall dose. Here's something I found on equivalents. Obviously absorption and symptom relief is individual but it gives an idea of equivalence.

https://www.earlymenopause.com/hrt-equivalencies/
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Mary G on September 17, 2019, 12:04:35 PM
Dangermouse, well said, that is the most sensible view I have read on here regarding compounded progesterone, ever.  So many women put up with the dreaded Utrogestan (which is actually for pregnancy) when they could benefit greatly from a better form of micronised progesterone at a lower, more tolerable dose.   

Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 17, 2019, 12:06:55 PM
Hello Kilted
Do you know, I hadn't even thought of looking at the leaflet . . .
Your link is most helpful, so thank you.
Jay Jay
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 17, 2019, 04:57:26 PM
Hello KC
I found your post fascinating, especially in relation to mcg equivalents to the OCP, as I was on Marvelon OCP pill (brilliant for years) which is a 30 mcg.
You say a patch 150 contains 150 mcg.  Sorry to appear stupid, but a patch lasts for 3.5 days, so would that be the equivalent release of approx 42.86 mcg per day ?
How many pumps would this equate to daily ?
Do apologise for bothering you, but this specific information is exciting me, as I have been unable to source it elsewhere in a comprehensive form.
Regards
JJ

Hi JayJay - you might also like to look at these links which give the brands and types of HRT that are available in UK.

The info on this site (Menopause Matters) gives the different doses as low, medium and high, - look at the diffferent tabs for oestrogen, for peri or for post and you will see the equivalents as it cannot be exact - just approximate

https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/treatment.php

Dr Louise Newson also lists the different types:

https://www.menopausedoctor.co.uk/menopause/hrt-the-different-ingredients-brands-and-strengths-available

Finally Dotty posted this link from the BMS which gives more info about the dosage especially for higher doses of gel:

https://thebms.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/HRT-Practical-Prescribing-AUG2018.pdf

The thing is we don't usually have equivalents for the pill because the treatments are mostly in relation to HRT. Nevertheless there are some CCP types which are especially designed for peri-menopause as they contain estrdaiol the same as in HRT, rather than the stronger synthetic ethinyl estradiol for example. These are called QLAIRA and ZOELY (although not sure if the latter is still available).

The actual amount of oestrogen in the patch is way higher than the daily release rate and is not strictly comparable with other types of HRT on the basis of dose, except in terms of low medium or high.

Ah I see you're 59 so the pill is not appropriate!!

Hope this helps :)

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 17, 2019, 05:07:55 PM
The progesterone is the creams is micronised so exactly like Utrogestan but in more normal quantities, rather than the overdose you get hit with on the Utro.

It used to make my cycles return to 28 days so defo not placebo. There is a lot of nonsense written about compounded creams and sadly those who haven't used them believe it, when they could in fact greatly help them.

Like any hormones though you have to get the balance right and that is tricky to do when they're surging about so much in peri and early post meno.

The point is the progesterone needs to be at higher doses in order for sufficient to be absorbed in order to protect the womb. In these circumstances it is essential that proprietary tested brands are used. Of course it is way more than "normal" amounts of progesterone as this is produced in pulses of smaller amounts by the ovary ( not sure how frequently) so we don't get a hit all at once.  If there was a way of mimicking this naturally with progesterone Lower doses in regular pulses) we would all be very gratefull!! ie like a Mirena or something slow release - or vaginal capsules that took a couple of days to release the prog.

OTC creams like I said are extremely weak which is why they're OTC. Compounded creams should not be used for endometrial protection because they are so variable in how much prog they contain -  this is the view of all the menopause societies. They are also extremely expensive and beyond the reach of most women and I would not want women reading this to feel that going down this route was the only way forward to achieve symptom relief. I am conscious that affordability is mentioned regularly when there is talk about eg buying HRT (with a prescription) from one of these online pharmacies at much greater expense than a normal prescription, and consultations with private doctors at compounding phamarcies is prohibitive for most. In my view this is and should remain a niche approach - until and if such time as standardised creams are available on NHS. Great if you can afford it and are happy with it!

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 17, 2019, 05:11:59 PM
Dangermouse, well said, that is the most sensible view I have read on here regarding compounded progesterone, ever.  So many women put up with the dreaded Utrogestan (which is actually for pregnancy) when they could benefit greatly from a better form of micronised progesterone at a lower, more tolerable dose.

I think many of us are in agreement that lower doses of utrogestan should be available - well a 50 mg dose, and licensing for vaginal use made official. However the dose of Utrogestan for fertility/pregnancy purposes is 600 mg per day vaginally. Like I said in my previous post the dose of Utrogestan is higher than it needs to be especially when taken orally because it breaks down in the body so needs to be high in order that sufficient gets to the womb.

We do need proper studies too for vaginal doses for endometrial protection. There have been quite a few preliminary studies done - I've posted these - but why there is no furtheer work on this and no licensing in UK is beyond me  :-\

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 17, 2019, 05:39:20 PM
Hello Kilted
Do you know, I hadn't even thought of looking at the leaflet . . .
Your link is most helpful, so thank you.
Jay Jay

No problem JayJay. I hope it helps to clarify doses for you. I found it really useful.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 17, 2019, 06:09:47 PM
Hi
Have saved the link, and will be talking to gp tomorrow about blood tests.
Hopeful !
Thank you
JJ
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 17, 2019, 06:24:41 PM
Oh that's great JayJay. Fingers crossed you'll get the tests you need and you're then in a position to fully evaluate where you are. If you haven't had vit b&d, thyroid or ferritin and iron recently, I'd ask for those too. Good luck.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 17, 2019, 06:55:28 PM
JayJay

Did you see my post in response to yours  about dosage - I did several posts in response to various comments but mine to you was further down so you might have missed it? The link I gave are from UK sites and about UK products whereas the one Kilted Cupid gave, although with some very helpful and relevant information, also refers to products not available here but in US only, hence my post!

I hope all goes well at the docs....

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: dangermouse on September 17, 2019, 07:50:33 PM
Progesterone cream wasn't being discussed in the context of endometrial protection against high dose oestrogen HRT. However, some private doctors may use it in this way with bespoke doses of oestrogen, and some GPs prescribe off license testosterone to women.

It's a bit like how hairdressers use bespoke chemicals to dye hair, rather than the off the shelf safer bulk products tested in the factory.

It's a nice sentiment not to let women think they can't get what they need from the NHS (and any decent private doctor should not be doing that) but it's just as damaging to suggest that anything prescribed outside of the NHS is ineffective. Particularly as the NHS' motivations become more and more financially driven. We need more choice, not more restrictions.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 18, 2019, 09:59:53 AM
Progesterone cream wasn't being discussed in the context of endometrial protection against high dose oestrogen HRT. However, some private doctors may use it in this way with bespoke doses of oestrogen, and some GPs prescribe off license testosterone to women.

It's a bit like how hairdressers use bespoke chemicals to dye hair, rather than the off the shelf safer bulk products tested in the factory.

It's a nice sentiment not to let women think they can't get what they need from the NHS (and any decent private doctor should not be doing that) but it's just as damaging to suggest that anything prescribed outside of the NHS is ineffective. Particularly as the NHS' motivations become more and more financially driven. We need more choice, not more restrictions.

Agree Dangermouse, all private gynaes should have a moral compass and in the cases of women who have little or no help from NHS medics, I'm sure the private sector is a blessing. I myself have considered the Marion Gluck or Jan Toledano clinic in a last ditch attempt to find a prog I can use rather than have a hysto. I'm not in London and don't have the time right now, but it's on my radar.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Mary G on September 18, 2019, 10:21:58 AM
Well said Dangermouse and KiltedCupid, we need as much choice as possible and the whole point of this forum is to make others aware of what is on offer. 

I use bespoke 50mg body identical progesterone every day as part of continuous combined HRT and it's absolutely brilliant, a real life saver in my case and it means I no longer have to consider a hysterectomy.   It also works well on the endometrium and my last scan after nearly a year of using the regime was 3.3mm - it doesn't get much better than that.

This type of progesterone doesn't have the same horrendous side effects that I had with Utrogestan but unfortunately it is not available on the NHS because it is expensive, not because it doesn't work, it very definitely does work.

I think a lot of women would be prepared to pay for an HRT regime that works and gives them their life back.   OK, there are some who can't afford it but many can and/or would be prepared to forego something else to pay for it and to be able to live again.  It costs me £40 which is a small price to pay to feel good.

I wish I had know more about this type of progesterone years ago.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 18, 2019, 10:29:10 AM
Well said Dangermouse and KiltedCupid, we need as much choice as possible and the whole point of this forum is to make others aware of what is on offer. 

I use bespoke 50mg body identical progesterone every day as part of continuous combined HRT and it's absolutely brilliant, a real life saver in my case and it means I no longer have to consider a hysterectomy.   It also works well on the endometrium and my last scan after nearly a year of using the regime was 3.3mm - it doesn't get much better than that.

This type of progesterone doesn't have the same horrendous side effects that I had with Utrogestan but unfortunately it is not available on the NHS because it is expensive, not because it doesn't work, it very definitely does work.

I think a lot of women would be prepared to pay for an HRT regime that works and gives them their life back.   OK, there are some who can't afford it but many can and/or would be prepared to forego something else to pay for it and to be able to live again.  It costs me £40 which is a small price to pay to feel good.

I wish I had know more about this type of progesterone years ago.


That sounds great MaryG, I'll definitely rule out the MG or JT route before a hysto, I've nothing to lose. Also, just generally a good thing to have more options. Wonderful that you're feeling so good on yours and what an endo reading!
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Mary G on September 18, 2019, 10:48:12 AM
Thanks KiltedCupid, 3.3mm is a very good reading but I used to go down to 2mm immediately post bleed on the 7 day 100mg Utrogestan regime despite cheating like mad!

Before making a decision on a hysterectomy, it would definitely be worth ruling out bespoke progesterone.   Because it is absorbed differently, it has a more beneficial effect and even if you are definitely progesterone intolerant, it will be a continuous dose which will be much lower than your own progesterone was before a period pre menopause.  You could well find it doesn't cause PMS.

Send me a PM if you would like further details.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: dangermouse on September 18, 2019, 10:52:26 AM
I used to be a client of Jan Toledano, she is very thorough so you feel that you do get your money's worth.

That's great Mary G that you are getting 50mg of prog, as I know you very much need your oestrogen for your VA.

We do tend to have an issue in this country with investing in our own health and well-being, assuming it should all be covered by the Government. If I could afford it I would only use private healthcare (where possible) to take pressure off of the NHS.

Anyway, all very positive as more options give people hope!
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: JayJay on September 18, 2019, 11:04:14 AM
Thanks KiltedCupid, 3.3mm is a very good reading but I used to go down to 2mm immediately post bleed on the 7 day 100mg Utrogestan regime despite cheating like mad!

Before making a decision on a hysterectomy, it would definitely be worth ruling out bespoke progesterone.   Because it is absorbed differently, it has a more beneficial effect and even if you are definitely progesterone intolerant, it will be a continuous dose which will be much lower than your own progesterone was before a period pre menopause.  You could well find it doesn't cause PMS.

Send me a PM if you would like further details.



Hello Mary
Interesting post.
May I ask which 50 prog you are on, and how you obtain it if is not on NHS?

Thank you
Jay Jay
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: jaycee on September 18, 2019, 01:11:30 PM
BeaR, Once again i am confused re,hair loss and thinning, you said on Sammijanes post that testosterone is well known for hair growth,yet further down testosterone is said to affect hair loss if its too high
I think if there seems to be imbalance  surely Drs should give you a blood test,it would save all the changing and trying different patches etc,and be able to balance the two betterMine has been getting worse and worse so now i have stopped everything,vagifem and livial
My daughters hair is also falling out,it seems to happening a lot with HRT

Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 18, 2019, 03:46:38 PM
Jaycee

I totally agree HRT causes hairloss

I spoke to a tricologist who explained that a surge in hormones can to cause hairloss whether this evens out once a balance is obtained ? I don't know because for me just having estrogen I'm never going to have a balance unless I take progesterone and testosterone and I have friend who take both estrogen and testosterone and still have hairloss due to imbalance in progesterone.
I was on estrogel and to be honest didn't feel great wasn't obsorbing well on 2 pumps and upped to 3 but felt awful so reduced back done but suffered awful thinning scalp hair I don't know if it was estrogel ? Vagifem can cause hairloss and is listed on the website as side effect I've now swapped to estradot 75 patch been on since Sunday so hair still shedding but I hope will stop so just see how it goes . The gel was good for VA but did give me achy pain in vagina which has gone and I got constipated fatigue irratic mood bloated I used to rub on inner thighs and got fat deposits there to but apart from that and hairloss worked well but I'll see how I go on patch if hrt doesn't work then I'm going on the pill
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: bear on September 18, 2019, 04:06:58 PM
BeaR, Once again i am confused re,hair loss and thinning, you said on Sammijanes post that testosterone is well known for hair growth,yet further down testosterone is said to affect hair loss if its too high
I think if there seems to be imbalance  surely Drs should give you a blood test,it would save all the changing and trying different patches etc,and be able to balance the two betterMine has been getting worse and worse so now i have stopped everything,vagifem and livial
My daughters hair is also falling out,it seems to happening a lot with HRT

Hi Jaycee,

Sorry if I have confused you. It's all about balance, really. Testosterone helps 'male pattern' hair growth, but it can also boost hair growth in females. You are right, if testosterone levels are too high it's not good at all for women.

I think it's a good idea to stop everything so you can know for sure if HRT is the cause of your hair loss. I personally don't think it is, but everything is possible. There are 'inactive ingredients' in all preparations that can have an impact on susceptible people.

BeaR.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Hurdity on September 18, 2019, 04:50:17 PM
This is all way off topic!

However the relationship between T and hair growth is very complex and not fully understood! There are genetic differences in how we respond and also I understand much depends on relative balance between T and oestrogen levels which alter when we reach menopause in favour of testosterone (or rather the ratio of T to Oestrogen increases because oestrogen declines quicker than T which declines gradually). Hence we can develop more androgenic characteristics. Adding T and oestrogen exogenously ( from outside) as part of HRT also alters the balance and certain testosterone derived progestogens also affect hair loss. SHBG and Dyhydrotestosterone are also involved but it all looks extremely complex from what I've skim read!

Blood tests unfortunately will tell you nothing about what causes your hair loss although if you are taking replacement testosterone it is a good idea to have your levels measured to ensure they remain within physiological range for women - despite their inaccuracy. Also oestrogen needs to be at a good level but you will be able to tell that from your symptoms most probably? If you are peri oestrogen blood tests are inaccurate and generally they are anyway if a one-off...

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Saffy on September 18, 2019, 04:53:32 PM
Sammiejane, I would have to agree with the trichologist as I think that has been my experience too. I first had very gradual hair loss when I was in earlyish peri - my periods were coming every 12-20 days and I had huge adrenaline rushes so I assume my oestrogen levels were surging from low to high then back again.

By the time my periods had spread apart by months my hairloss had stopped (but it hadn't grown back). I started on very low HRT (25mcg patches and utrogestan) and very slowly over 2 years worked my way up to 100 patches (poor absorber) and had no additional hairloss. I then doubled my dose to 2x100 patches, which finally raised oestrogen levels to 257 pmol and after a few months introduced testosterone which pushed my levels up to 700 pmol within 10 weeks. A month or so later my hair started to shed in the same pattern (crown and front/sides). I strongly suspect it wasnt't the testosterone per se but the rapid increase in oestrogen levels. Hoping it will subside soon  :(.

Just my view but I would suggest anyone worried about hairloss increases or decreases their oestrogen and testosterone levels very slowly!!
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: KiltedCupid on September 18, 2019, 05:50:28 PM
This is all way off topic!

However the relationship between T and hair growth is very complex and not fully understood! There are genetic differences in how we respond and also I understand much depends on relative balance between T and oestrogen levels which alter when we reach menopause in favour of testosterone (or rather the ratio of T to Oestrogen increases because oestrogen declines quicker than T which declines gradually). Hence we can develop more androgenic characteristics. Adding T and oestrogen exogenously ( from outside) as part of HRT also alters the balance and certain testosterone derived progestogens also affect hair loss. SHBG and Dyhydrotestosterone are also involved but it all looks extremely complex from what I've skim read!

Blood tests unfortunately will tell you nothing about what causes your hair loss although if you are taking replacement testosterone it is a good idea to have your levels measured to ensure they remain within physiological range for women - despite their inaccuracy. Also oestrogen needs to be at a good level but you will be able to tell that from your symptoms most probably? If you are peri oestrogen blood tests are inaccurate and generally they are anyway if a one-off...

Hurdity x

A full spectrum blood test will tell if your thyroid, b vits and iron levels are within range, which all impact on hair loss.
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: jaycee on September 18, 2019, 08:56:28 PM
Well have been to the Drs today a different one to my own, but a good one,he did say livial[tibilone ] has higher androgeni properties than estrogen, so maybe that didn't help
Anyway seeing a dermatologist next month, so will see what he has to say

Sorry if i have diverted from  original subject i will shut up now :-X
Title: Re: Has Oestrogel been rebranded again
Post by: Sammiejane on September 19, 2019, 10:22:28 AM
Hi saffy

So do you think my hair shedding has increased due to the patch going on 75 and obsorbing more estrogen the problem is I think a balance need to be obtained through all 3 hormones when hairloss is caused by hormones which mine is as my bloods are all fine and has only happened since going on estrogen hrt and now I've swapped from 2 pumps of gel to 75 patch I've got more shedding ! My hairloss had slowed on the gel but then my estrogen levels reduced as wasn't obsorbing well but I guess the ratio between estrogen and progesterone and testosterone was more in balance with estrogen being lower as my progesterone is non existent and testosterone 0.6 which is low so when estrogen surges up this still creates an imbalance and high estrogen which can cause hairloss same as women who are pregnant can also have hairloss due to surge in hormones i personally never did I shed a bit when baby was born but nothing major and couldn't tell as my hair was so so thick and even before hrt it was still mega thick ! This hrt as caused my hairloss