Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Hopeful2 on September 04, 2023, 07:24:07 AM
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Good morning ladies.
Please help 😓.
I've been blaming trying to up my oestrogel for my return of symptoms & heavy bleeding for 3 whole weeks, but this has only happened since starting the new shaped bottle of oestrogel. I did think it was different as the gel dried quicker. Am so upset with myself that I didnt realise before now as hard to believe this could happen with quality checks, it was so difficult to get up to 2 pumps because of side effects. Feel like I'm back to square one 😓. IS THERE ANYWAY THIS IS JUST A FAULTY BATCH? Or can we not use oestrogel now anymore. Been the only HRT so far I can tolerate. I have another bottle with different batch number is there any point trying it, as it is also the new shaped bottle?
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Hi - sorry to hear about return of symptoms - this is more likely to do with - either you are peri and hormone levels fluctuate, or temperature changes affecting your skin or the gel (where it is kept) or other factors. Quality control is very stringent so I would doubt this is the cause?
Hurdity x
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Thank you for your reply Hurdity.
As symptoms & bleeding so bad within 3 weeks of using it. Not sure what to do now. If I could locate some old bottle type would the pharmacist exchange them for me?
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I’m also having problems with Oestrogel in the new shaped bottle I’ve been on the new bottle approximately two weeks my symptoms all came back, I do believe it is a faulty batch. A chemist will not except them back once they leave the premises you’d need a new prescription I’ve already enquired about it and the pharmacist was extremely rude in thier reply.
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Good morning ladies.
Please help 😓.
I've been blaming trying to up my oestrogel for my return of symptoms & heavy bleeding for 3 whole weeks, but this has only happened since starting the new shaped bottle of oestrogel. I did think it was different as the gel dried quicker. Am so upset with myself that I didnt realise before now as hard to believe this could happen with quality checks, it was so difficult to get up to 2 pumps because of side effects. Feel like I'm back to square one 😓. IS THERE ANYWAY THIS IS JUST A FAULTY BATCH? Or can we not use oestrogel now anymore. Been the only HRT so far I can tolerate. I have another bottle with different batch number is there any point trying it, as it is also the new shaped bottle?
You're not somewhere really hot atm, are you? Reason I ask is that I took my estrogel to Turkey mid August and it became very runny and dried extremely quickly. I had such bad symptoms and a horrendous week, even though it doesn't advise any special storage instructions. Anyway binned it when I got home, opened a new container and all was okay again.
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Thank you for your kind reply ladies.
It is very hot alright Penguin and I have noticed it gets runnier in hot weather, but I've noticed this before and been alright.
But along with bleeding & symptoms I've also not got the big spots I was getting on my legs as a side effect when it was working so it really feels like im getting nothing.
Ive asked in 2 pharmacies too Dizzy Me and they say they only have the new bottles now. So I opened another bottle with different batch number on it to see if it would make a difference, but it still hasn't made a difference. Don't want to change product, but maybe its time to change if we can't rely on this product ☹.
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Hopeful2, even if the weather is hot the gel is not supposed to change texture. This problem with Oestrogel is older than me ;D I would try Sandrena until the manufacturer make up its mind, if they have one ;D
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Thank you Sage for your advice. I think I will ask for Sandrena.
When changing product with 2 pumps of oestrogel would you use half of what your using & half of other one to start with, it's just I'm sensitive to change, or should I just make complete change? if that makes sense?
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Hi Hopeful2
I think it can be misleading and potentially problematic for women to attribute change of symptoms to a bottle shape because it could lead women to ignore symptoms for which there could be other causes.
I say this because you mention heavy bleeding. This is very unlikely to be cause buy a different bottle and especially if there were slight differences in batches - could not have such a dramatic effect. If you are bleeding heavily then may I respectfully suggest that you get this checked out by the doctor. I'm not sure of your regime - whether cyclical or continuous but heavy bleeding can have all sorts of reasons. You said you also increased the dose of gel and depending how long ago this could potentially cause bleeding - depending on your circumstances, where you are in menopause etc.
Hopeful2, even if the weather is hot the gel is not supposed to change texture. This problem with Oestrogel is older than me ;D I would try Sandrena until the manufacturer make up its mind, if they have one ;D
I use testosterone gel - prevously Testogel which is the same formulation and manufacturer as oestrogel, and it most definitely changes texture with the hot weather. It stands to reason that gel will be a runnier consistency in hot weather and our skin will also be warmer, affecting absorption to some extent.
I have used Sandrena gel which is generally stickier so may be more stable with temperature - though the gels have all been tested within a wide temperature range from what I recall.
If you are very sensitive to change then I would change gradually but if you think the new batch is not working so well then the best course of action, after getting your bleeding checked out, is surely to increase the dose slightly. Any difference between batches of the same product if there is one, is only likely to be very minor and I think you may experience a greater difference by changing to Sandrena.
All the best
Hurdity x
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I also had problems with the new shaped bottles.
I posted on this forum a few months ago about all my symptoms returning and that once I was given the old shaped bottle again I felt so much better.
I reported this on the yellow card scheme and I have received an e-mail from Bessins today asking for permission to contact my doctor
We take the safety and quality of our products seriously. As part of a pharmaceutical company’s statutory requirement imposed by the regulatory authorities, Besins Healthcare is required to follow up on any suspected adverse events that we become aware of concerning our medicines. This helps us to monitor the safety profile of our medicines.
For this reason, it would be useful for Besins Healthcare UK to contact your doctor or another healthcare professional regarding this report.
Hopefully the more of us who report this closer we may get to having an answer as to why our symptoms came back on the new shaped bottles🤞
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Good idea. My cats :cat88: :cat48: would know if an ingredient was altered in their tinned foods even if the details hadn't been altered! With our bodies being so sensitive especially during peri, it may be that something in a differently shaped bottle may impact. Could it be the 'plastic' leeching for example?
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I had this with my citalopram from a particular manufacturer, it just didn't work and felt like I was taking a sugar pill. Read up online and it can happen, pharmacist agreed and doesn't give me that brand anymore. He reported it.
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Louise Newson has just posted about this on her Instagram! Do check it out. Someone has been weighing the doses from the new bottle - not only are they lower than the old bottle, they are also inconsistent.
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I've just read a post via Louise Newsons Menopause_Doctor page on Instagram which shows the doses being weighed/measured out on a digital scale. The new shape bottle is dispensing sometimes 20% less than the original shaped bottle. She has a poll on her stories asking for women to vote if they have seen symptoms return with the new shape bottle. A lady had taken measurements from the 2 bottles for around 10 days and the new shape bottle was consistently dispensing lower than the old shape bottle.
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Really interesting. OP I’d say you know your body and your mind and if you suspect it’s the change in bottle it likely is.
I had issues when my hrt was changed from estrogel to Oestrodose and had to report to the yellow card scheme. On the face of it the same product but a subtle change made a huge difference for me. Though went through tonnes of gaslighting telling me it wasn’t that. Spoiler alert: it was!
I hope you can get the old shape or find a new and more consistent hrt. Good luck x
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Louise Newson has just posted about this on her Instagram! Do check it out. Someone has been weighing the doses from the new bottle - not only are they lower than the old bottle, they are also inconsistent.
I have just seen that report on Twitter X too. 👍
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:thankyou: charging the same though?
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That’s exactly what I thought CLKD! it’s a bit like the size of a tin of quality street being reduced slyly and price staying the same ;)
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As well as removing the purple papered sweets from the tins :o >:(
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I also had problems with the new shaped bottles.
I posted on this forum a few months ago about all my symptoms returning and that once I was given the old shaped bottle again I felt so much better.
I reported this on the yellow card scheme and I have received an e-mail from Bessins today asking for permission to contact my doctor
We take the safety and quality of our products seriously. As part of a pharmaceutical company’s statutory requirement imposed by the regulatory authorities, Besins Healthcare is required to follow up on any suspected adverse events that we become aware of concerning our medicines. This helps us to monitor the safety profile of our medicines.
For this reason, it would be useful for Besins Healthcare UK to contact your doctor or another healthcare professional regarding this report.
Hopefully the more of us who report this closer we may get to having an answer as to why our symptoms came back on the new shaped bottles🤞
Hi Sue1972,
As a matter of interest, did the Yellow Card Scheme contact you first to ask if they could pass your details onto Besins? I just wondered. :)
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I also had problems with the new shaped bottles.
I posted on this forum a few months ago about all my symptoms returning and that once I was given the old shaped bottle again I felt so much better.
I reported this on the yellow card scheme and I have received an e-mail from Bessins today asking for permission to contact my doctor
We take the safety and quality of our products seriously. As part of a pharmaceutical company’s statutory requirement imposed by the regulatory authorities, Besins Healthcare is required to follow up on any suspected adverse events that we become aware of concerning our medicines. This helps us to monitor the safety profile of our medicines.
For this reason, it would be useful for Besins Healthcare UK to contact your doctor or another healthcare professional regarding this report.
Hopefully the more of us who report this closer we may get to having an answer as to why our symptoms came back on the new shaped bottles🤞
Hi Sue1972,
As a matter of interest, did the Yellow Card Scheme contact you first to ask if they could pass your details onto Besins? I just wondered. :)
Hi Jenna,
I don't think they did but the whole reason I reported it was because I wanted Bessins to investigate this, so I have no problem with them contacting me. I am just pleased to know they are looking into it. x
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Thanks, Sue. :)
Yes, it will be interesting to see what Besins discover!
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Let us know !
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I also have felt much worse starting the new cylindrical bottle. My pharmacist managed to find a few of the old blue topped bottles and has kindly swapped them over for me. She said the formulation can vary and effect certain people and that she'd seen it before with thyroxine meds varying. I've submitted a yellow card as I feel this should be looked into.
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Hi KittyKat,
I don't know how many dud batches of Oestrogel there are, but I was doing great on 3 pumps of 'old' Oestrogel and slowly declined on cylindrical Oestrogel.
I was so fed up with people telling me 'it's the same product'. It clearly isn't. It feels different and all my symptoms returned. I could only just keep my symptoms at bay by increasing to 5 or 6 pumps a day.
On the advice of a friend I switched to Sandrena a few months back and am back to my old self.
Sandrena is a bit sticky and I did prefer the convenience of a pump, but apart from that it is wonderful stuff.
I know several people who also made the switch due to new oestrogel not working and all bar one are delighted. The one who didn't get on with Sandrena found happiness with Evorel.
There is life after 'new' Oestrogel.
Good luck xxx
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Wow just read this after posting about having breakthrough bleeds and just not feeling right for the last 5-6 weeks…weirdly this is when I started the new shaped bottle!! Ugh now what!!
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We're all individuals, so I can't tell you to ditch new oestrogel with any certainty that sandrena will work. But I can tell you I persevered with new oestrogel because I was so scared of making things even worse. So I just upped and upped my dose. I kept reading that the bottle was dispensing less etc. But in my head I knew the product had changed. It used to feel silky and make my skin unbelievably soft.
Anyway.6 pumps a day would stop the night sweats and the terrible brain fog, however I never felt great, only ok.
Once I switched (and the transformation was within a day or so) I felt amazing. Sharp brain, confident, decisive and having way more energy.
I flogged a dead horse with new oestrogel for months. I wish I hadn't.
I would suggest give Sandrena go once your 'old' oestrogel runs out. There'll be plenty of 'new' oestrogel waiting for you if you decide to switch back (can't imagine there'd ever be a shortage of that sh1t)
Good luck and keep us posted
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So they've decided to revert to a cylindrical bottle? That was the shape I first encountered back in 2011. It was gold with a white top.
I'm guessing they'd had enough of the debate about green and orange squares and decided to draw a line under it once and for all.
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I find the stopper on the new white top bottle very annoying, it gets in the way when trying to pump out. I've ended up just ripping it off, don't know if you are supposed to?!
Does anyone know if Estradot 50 is back out there yet? I think I will be going back to that if it is.
Thanks
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Julia Dizzy....After being happily and well on Oestrogel for over 20 years I had real trouble on it when the new batches arrived after the shortages of HRT. Something has changed as I just did not absorb it at all and my blood test level was 55 pmol so as the Meno consultant rightly said I might as well not have been on HRT at all. I have given up on it and am now on Estradot patches which are just coming back available again apparently. I don't think 50 patches are available just yet but I was prescribed 25 patches to double up on till they do. x
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Julia, the stopper is there for a reason - it prevents the gel evaporating. If you're not putting the stopper on, the gel which is already primed and in the pump from the previous use, can evaporate - leading to you getting a lower dose....
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I know I'm late to this thread but reading through and looking back, my symptoms started to return slightly once I got the new shaped bottles of gel too. I was worried initially as I was already of 4 pumps daily. Then I started to get spotting, followed by a full period which kicked off the recent investigations I've had at the hospital following the discovery my womb lining had thickened. I also thought that the amount per pump was definitely less than in the old bottles. I found I had an old bottle in the cupboard and did a pump from the old shape and then the new and yes, the new is a smaller dose.
I now wonder if this is all caused by the gel being different after reading here. Whilst im glad my GP rushed all the tests through as urgent and once i get the results I'll know whats going on, but if everything is ok health wise, I'll talk to the GP and see if she gas had similar reporrs from others.
Just thought I'd add this in case the info is of any help to you.
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Ok I understand Joziel, but how come the old style bottles with the green top didn't have stoppers? Surely that would be the same in theory that it evaporates?
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The bottles work in different ways. The pump priming thing is different in the 2 designs. If you take them apart (as some truly committed people investigating all this shebang have) you can see it.
I'm not saying that's the cause for you, but it's just one thing which might not be helping.
I'm using 6 pumps of this stuff. I might try Sandrena at some point because it's a lotta stuff to be putting on every day and a step in the whole morning routine I could do without(!). It takes ages to dry on my butt cheeks (!) - maybe because they are colder - and I end up not being able to get dressed because my gel isn't dry yet ::)
I also save the bottles when I finish them because they usually have some amount left (like half a pump) and I use this on my face every day. Estrogen is great for the face.... But I get some extra that way too...
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Hi Sue
Have you heard any more from Besins about this? I have just emailed their complaints department, as suggested by Louise Newson. I have also weighed the two types of Oestrogel on digital scales after having a return to symptoms and there is definitely a smaller amount from the white cap at times. I am relieved in one way that it is not only me that is noticing this difference but it is very frustrating when you hear that Besins are insisting that the two products are the same.
I also had problems with the new shaped bottles.
I posted on this forum a few months ago about all my symptoms returning and that once I was given the old shaped bottle again I felt so much better.
I reported this on the yellow card scheme and I have received an e-mail from Bessins today asking for permission to contact my doctor
We take the safety and quality of our products seriously. As part of a pharmaceutical company’s statutory requirement imposed by the regulatory authorities, Besins Healthcare is required to follow up on any suspected adverse events that we become aware of concerning our medicines. This helps us to monitor the safety profile of our medicines.
For this reason, it would be useful for Besins Healthcare UK to contact your doctor or another healthcare professional regarding this report.
Hopefully the more of us who report this closer we may get to having an answer as to why our symptoms came back on the new shaped bottles🤞
Hi Sue1972,
As a matter of interest, did the Yellow Card Scheme contact you first to ask if they could pass your details onto Besins? I just wondered. :)
Hi Jenna,
I don't think they did but the whole reason I reported it was because I wanted Bessins to investigate this, so I have no problem with them contacting me. I am just pleased to know they are looking into it. x
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Hi chopsuey,
I have not heard anything else from Bessins. I have swaped to Sandrena gel and I am doing much better on that. I was fed up of the constant uncertainty with the Oestrogel.
x
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Thanks Sue, that's interesting to hear. I may have to do the same if this continues to be an issue. x
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Joziel, I'm interested to know about oestrogen being great for the face. Do you mean it's good for wrinkles? Is it ok in the sun?
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Joziel, I'm interested to know about oestrogen being great for the face. Do you mean it's good for wrinkles? Is it ok in the sun?
I'd assume it would be given we apply to our bodies and then put sun screen on in the sun.
Joziel does it make a noticeable difference to skin / wrinkles? I dp find my skim more plumped up and less dry with systemic hrt so I'd be interested in giving this a go.
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It's hard for me to tell what's doing what to my skin at the moment as I'm doing All The Things...
I use a Ziip daily, I have an Omnilux Contour LED mask I use daily, a NIRA laser. I have prescription treinoin from Dermatica (highly recommend) and their vitamin C as well, then niacinamide, EGF (epidermal growth factors), peptides (Matrixyl 3000 and copper peptides from the Ordinary) and tons of Korean moisturing toners and moisturisers (Korean skincare is so cheap if you buy from stylevana.com and their moisturising toners and thick moisturisers are great for using with tretinoin). The thing which has made the most difference is hands-down the tretinoin (only been using it since August) and I highly recommend Dermatica for that. Then there are some great FB groups for tret use which cover the moisturising and breakouts which can happen at first.
Which is all to say - the Oestrogel I put on my face is just part of all this. I just save the bottles when there is partial pumps left and I put a tiny blob (about the same as Testogel size) on my face. It is quite drying because it has alcohol in it so keep it away from the eye area. I leave it on a couple of hours and then wash it off. Because I have about 650000 products to put on my face.
Obs when I'm busy all day I can't use all this, but when I'm working from home I can easily wash my face and apply a new thing whenever I have a wee or make a cup of tea...
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It's hard for me to tell what's doing what to my skin at the moment as I'm doing All The Things...
I use a Ziip daily, I have an Omnilux Contour LED mask I use daily, a NIRA laser. I have prescription treinoin from Dermatica (highly recommend) and their vitamin C as well, then niacinamide, EGF (epidermal growth factors), peptides (Matrixyl 3000 and copper peptides from the Ordinary) and tons of Korean moisturing toners and moisturisers (Korean skincare is so cheap if you buy from stylevana.com and their moisturising toners and thick moisturisers are great for using with tretinoin). The thing which has made the most difference is hands-down the tretinoin (only been using it since August) and I highly recommend Dermatica for that. Then there are some great FB groups for tret use which cover the moisturising and breakouts which can happen at first.
Which is all to say - the Oestrogel I put on my face is just part of all this. I just save the bottles when there is partial pumps left and I put a tiny blob (about the same as Testogel size) on my face. It is quite drying because it has alcohol in it so keep it away from the eye area. I leave it on a couple of hours and then wash it off. Because I have about 650000 products to put on my face.
Obs when I'm busy all day I can't use all this, but when I'm working from home I can easily wash my face and apply a new thing whenever I have a wee or make a cup of tea...
Oh wow thats a lot! Well done on your commitment, I clearly need to up my game 😊. Will defo give it a try, I was wondering if it would help my hands actually, my skin is a bit crepes there, have you ever tried hands?
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No, I'm totally obsessed with trying to get rid of nasolabial folds (or at least make them not look like my face is melting off) without using fillers!! So far I've improved everything else but not seen much improvement in those ;D
By the way, on the subject of Oestrogel... I just got back my results of a test yesterday - on day 6 of my cycle.
On SIX pumps of Oestrogel my grand total of estrogen is...... (drum roll) 334pmol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
What is this stuff, is it water?? On 4 pumps I was 283pmol. So a whole extra 2 pumps and that's all I've got to show for myself.... I think I might have to switch to Sandrena now, although I'm doing a lot with thyroid meds at the moment and I don't want to change too much all at once... Even if my symptoms aren't estrogen related, I'm not sure I can smother myself in 6 pumps of this forevermore just to achieve that level of estrogen.
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Hi Joziel,
I went on to 7 pumps, speading with a plastic knife to not 'waste' any on my hands.
I did not want to give up on Oestrogel, it had been very good to me. I didn't want to ditch it for Sandrena... but boy was I glad I did. Only regret was that I didn't do it sooner x
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Thanks Banjo, yes spreading with a silicone spatula here as well ;D
Do you know what your levels are on Sandrena?
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Hi Joziel,
Sorry, I have never had my levels tested so j have no idea re. numbers.
However, I have a weird symptom of low oestrogen which is hot feet at night. (After than anxiety, tiredness and brain fog). But hot feet is so distinctive and something I've never had before I now know that is a very clear indicator for me.
On 'good' oestrogel I was on 3 pumps, I started on 1.5mg of Sandrena but got occasional hot feet so am now on 2 sachets and very happy.
I've no idea if that's of any help to you!!
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I don't know, it's hard to say what my 6 pumps of gel would equate to!
I was originally on patches but I don't think I was absorbing those very well either, although I never got above a 75mcg patch - it was 195pmol. So I guess I'm going in the right direction, but I seem to need a high dose to get decent amounts. I'd like to be 400-600pmol...
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I've just picked up my new prescription of gel - and I have been given one old shaped bottle with the green swirl and top and labelled Oestrodose - and one new shaped with the round white top!
Not seen Oestrodose for years! Anyone else seen it lately? So far no issues....
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I've just picked up my new prescription of gel - and I have been given one old shaped bottle with the green swirl and top and labelled Oestrodose - and one new shaped with the round white top!
Not seen Oestrodose for years! Anyone else seen it lately? So far no issues....
I thought I had found the holy grail when I was given this shaped bottle with the green lid but unfortunately the Oestrodose did not work for me. :-\
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Sorry to hear you're struggling. This might be a shot in the dark, but in the days when I could use Estrogel I noticed that using a very rich, moisturising shower cream could really reduce it's effectiveness. Same with a spray tan too.
Do either of these apply?
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Hi Julia,
I had Oestrdose once. It was absolutely useless. I nosedive and was a mess within 3 days.
Please take care using this x
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Hi Julia,
I had Oestrdose once. It was absolutely useless. I nosedive and was a mess within 3 days.
Please take care using this x
Hi Julia,
I found it to be the same as the gel in the new Oestrogen bottles with the white lids. The smell and the consistency! I had a complete return of all symptoms when I was given the new shaped Oestrogel bottles. When I was then given the Oestrodose and it just seemed like the same product, I decided to switch to a new gel and everything has been so much better and I no longer dread going to the pharmacist to see what I have been given.
I hope you have also managed to find something that works for you. x
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Back in 2016 when I was a patient under Prof Stuff, the private pharmacy he used only stocked Estrogel. The head pharmacist told me that none of the private consultants on Harley Street etc prescribed Oestrodose because it was inferior to Estrogel.
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Back in 2016 when I was a patient under Prof Stuff, the private pharmacy he used only stocked Estrogel. The head pharmacist told me that none of the private consultants on Harley Street etc prescribed Oestrodose because it was inferior to Estrogel.
I actually feel they might be trying to pass off Oestrodose as Oestrogel, which would account for the change for many women. When I used it because I could not get the old Oestrogen, it definitely seemed to be the same as the stuff I was getting in the new Oestrogen dispenser.
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This thread intrigues me because I am on Oestrogel and used to have bottles that had a blue top, take 4 pumps a day and no issue.
The latest prescription appears to have a different bottle that has a weird top where you have a nozzle thing and for the past week, I have started to get some night sweats and the odd stomach cramp - may be coincidental but after seeing this thread am wondering if mine is connected. Will do the daily diary and record any symptoms and if continues will contact the Dr. 🤔
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Is your new bottle cylindrical?
If so, I really don't think it's a rogue batch, I think it's their new product. If it's no longer working for you, don't do what I did (ie continually increasing the dose for months). Get a new form of oestrogen ASAP X
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This thread intrigues me because I am on Oestrogel and used to have bottles that had a blue top, take 4 pumps a day and no issue.
The latest prescription appears to have a different bottle that has a weird top where you have a nozzle thing and for the past week, I have started to get some night sweats and the odd stomach cramp - may be coincidental but after seeing this thread am wondering if mine is connected. Will do the daily diary and record any symptoms and if continues will contact the Dr. 🤔
Ditto what Banjo1973 said. I messed on for ages trying to get hold of the old bottles and then thinking it was maybe just in my head and I should give the new bottles a bit longer. All the time my symptoms were getting worse and worse.
Some people have no issues with the new bottles but some of us are ultra sensitive to the changes (even though Bessins say there are none!)
x
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Hey Banjo and Sue
Thank you both for your messages.
Yes it is cylindrical and will keep going for a little longer with it but agree, if symptoms continue will look for an alternative 👍
Have a pleasant weekend 😀
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Oh my I am so glad I found this thread. My last prescription was the cylindrical bottles with clear lids. The last few week my symptoms have come back, night sweats, hot flushes and extreme anxiety. Now I'm worried that it's these new bottles. I am already on 4 pumps a day.
I have booked a gp review but it's over a week away. Has anyone moved onto something else like a estrogen patch??
Any advice? Thanks Christine
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Oh my I am so glad I found this thread. My last prescription was the cylindrical bottles with clear lids. The last few week my symptoms have come back, night sweats, hot flushes and extreme anxiety. Now I'm worried that it's these new bottles. I am already on 4 pumps a day.
I have booked a gp review but it's over a week away. Has anyone moved onto something else like a estrogen patch??
Any advice? Thanks Christine
I moved onto a different gel and it has been so much better x
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Oh my I am so glad I found this thread. My last prescription was the cylindrical bottles with clear lids. The last few week my symptoms have come back, night sweats, hot flushes and extreme anxiety. Now I'm worried that it's these new bottles. I am already on 4 pumps a day.
I have booked a gp review but it's over a week away. Has anyone moved onto something else like a estrogen patch??
Any advice? Thanks Christine
Hi Christine,
I moved to Sandrena along with many of my friends and haven't looked back. Apart from one, who didn't get on with it then found happiness with Evorel.
Please don't flog a dead horse with something that is no longer serving you x
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Oh my I am so glad I found this thread. My last prescription was the cylindrical bottles with clear lids. The last few week my symptoms have come back, night sweats, hot flushes and extreme anxiety. Now I'm worried that it's these new bottles. I am already on 4 pumps a day.
I have booked a gp review but it's over a week away. Has anyone moved onto something else like a estrogen patch??
Any advice? Thanks Christine
Hi Christine,
I moved to Sandrena along with many of my friends and haven't looked back. Apart from one, who didn't get on with it then found happiness with Evorel.
Please don't flog a dead horse with something that is no longer serving you x
Thanks for the response. Is the Sanrena gel the same type of application as oestrogel? I'm on such a high dose already I hate how much gel there is to spread.
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Sandrena comes in little sachets, I actually prefer the bottle, but at least they're easy for travel etc.
It comes in 1mg (and 0.5mg) strengths.
Most medics say 2 pumps of oestrogel = 1mg of Sandrena. But in terms of estradiol 1 pump has 0.75mg of estradiol ... I don't know whether it is an absorption thing or just an arbitrary equivalent that people just run with!!!
On a personal level, I was on 3 pumps of 'old' oestrogel (the good stuff). I tried 1.5mg of Sandrena but it wasn't quite enough so I now take 2 1mg sachets. Usually in the morning. Sometimes 1 in the morning and 1 in the afternoon.
The gel amount is small, but it's quite sticky and takes about 15mins to dry. But it works.
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I think the quantity of oestrogen must be less too. I have been feeling dizzy/ vertigo for a week or so and this has only happened once before when I tried 3 pumps not my usual four.
Not sute what to do. I could add another pump to make up if it is thought to be 20% less.
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Check out bloomingthroughthemenopause on instragram. She has been doing daily weighing of dosage and the new bottle dispenses upto 20% less! No wonder I've had a return of symptoms!!
I have emailed besin healthcard and reported my concers with yellow card scheme and I urge anyone else have the same problem to do the same.
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I have bought digital scales and the quantity of gel pumped from my bottle is as advertised. Unfortunately still got the dizziness/ vertigo so not sure why!
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I have bought digital scales and the quantity of gel pumped from my bottle is as advertised. Unfortunately still got the dizziness/ vertigo so not sure why!
I still think it's the active ingredients are not as effective!! Please report if you have had a return of symptoms.
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Can someone please advise how you yellow card something. The new bottles are definitely different in dosage and ingredient since using the new shape my levels have gone from 600 to 159 and all my symptoms have returned. Whilst using the old bottle my levels were increasing regularly and then wham my oestradiol is really low. My consultant is saying it is bad absorption and wants to change me to patches but I didn’t have a problem before! Nothing else has changed other than the bottle 😩 I’m trying to find an alternative is Sandrena available on nhs ?
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Report online https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/
Also email besin healthcare with your concerns [email protected]
I have just swapped to sandrena via NHS GP, just waiting for it to come into pharmacy.
Hope that helps x
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Hi
I'm also having this issue and lots and lots of people are talking about it. I've been on Oestrogel since 2018/2019 and I now feel terrible on the new bottles.
I tested in May day 12 on old bottle (feeling absolutely fantastic) E = 1590
Tested in Nov 2023, day 12, same dose levels 321
Tested this week after two months on a pump increase levels 271
I have been happy on oestrogel for a long time, I test regularly, and something is wrong with it, and I'm coming off it and swapping to something else.
I am also extremely frustrated by the gaslighting of women going on, we know our bodies better than anyone (I also have very serious thyroid issues and tussled with the NHS a long time over feeling unwell on their brilliant cure, I know first hand that doctors just don't listen and will just parrot the party line, it's not good enough!).
x
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Hi
I'm also having this issue and lots and lots of people are talking about it. I've been on Oestrogel since 2018/2019 and I now feel terrible on the new bottles.
I tested in May day 12 on old bottle (feeling absolutely fantastic) E = 1590
Tested in Nov 2023, day 12, same dose levels 321
Tested this week after two months on a pump increase levels 271
I have been happy on oestrogel for a long time, I test regularly, and something is wrong with it, and I'm coming off it and swapping to something else.
I am also extremely frustrated by the gaslighting of women going on, we know our bodies better than anyone (I also have very serious thyroid issues and tussled with the NHS a long time over feeling unwell on their brilliant cure, I know first hand that doctors just don't listen and will just parrot the party line, it's not good enough!).
x
Wow that is really interesting! Have you reported your findings via yellow card and besin? I hope one day to get a answer why so many women are experiencing this with the new bottles.
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Hiya
No but I'm happy to report it, something is wrong with this product! And I always test on day 12, so even allowing for my own levels fluctuating, something is amiss!
I'll keep testing, I've asked my gyane to try Sandrena, hoping she'll send me a script. I'll report back how I get on.
GS
x
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Hiya
No but I'm happy to report it, something is wrong with this product! And I always test on day 12, so even allowing for my own levels fluctuating, something is amiss!
I'll keep testing, I've asked my gyane to try Sandrena, hoping she'll send me a script. I'll report back how I get on.
GS
x
Yes please report, we need a voice in numbers. I have and had my bottles recalled via the pharmacy for testing. So I hope I get some feedback afterwards.
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OK will do.
Did you come off oestrogel? Can I ask what you are taking instead and how you are getting on?
x
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OK will do.
Did you come off oestrogel? Can I ask what you are taking instead and how you are getting on?
x
I have just switched to sandrena gel sachets. Only just started this so don't feel I can judge yet x
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OK, thanks.
Yes asked for Sandrena too, I'll update this thread when I test again, and if I hear anything from the yellow card / Besins.
Hope you settle and feel better, I am extremely frustrated they have messed about with it as it's really impacting my work and focus and general quality of life.
GS
x
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I will report as well. It really messed me up and Besins were totally unhelpful when I told them of my concerns and that Oestrogel was no longer working for me even though I had been on their original version for over 20 years. Estradot patches now working well for me now.
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It really feels as though they are not doing anything. :sigh:
I contacted Bessins many months ago and obviously there is still problems with whatever is in the new bottles. More and more women are reporting the issues using the Yellow Card scheme, but what is the use of that scheme if there has been no response or changes made!
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It really feels as though they are not doing anything. :sigh:
I contacted Bessins many months ago and obviously there is still problems with whatever is in the new bottles. More and more women are reporting the issues using the Yellow Card scheme, but what is the use of that scheme if there has been no response or changes made!
Hi Sue did you send a sample bottle back? I'm just curious if anyone has had any feedback from besins following their testing?
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I had to give them permission to contact my doctor, my doctor received a letter from them but all it asked for was the info I had already given them!
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Hi Christine
How long after submitting your yellow card were you asked to send back the bottle? I'm interested because I submitted a yellow card a few months ago now.
i previously used 4.5/5 pumps but now need 6.
Thanks
Cookie
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Hi Christine
How long after submitting your yellow card were you asked to send back the bottle? I'm interested because I submitted a yellow card a few months ago now.
i previously used 4.5/5 pumps but now need 6.
Thanks
Cookie
I emailed besin directly and told them I'd completed a yellow card and why. Besin emailed me back with more question and instructions to send the problem bottle back via my pharmacy. Hope that helps.
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Hi
I've just heard from my gynae, she's just done me a script for 3mg sandrena via an online pharmacy so I'll have a bit of time to give it a test before I see her on 14th Feb, I'll also keep testing on day 12 of my cycle and post the results on this thread.
I'm unsure about equivalences as oestrogel is supposedly 0.75mg a pump which at the dose I was on = 4.1mg (but let's be honest, it's doing bugger all so maybe it doesn't matter?)
vs 3mg Sandrena
However, gynae's a good egg and generally does me generous scripts so I'll have enough to fiddle about with the dose. Just hoping I don't have to go through a wobbly patch until I feel steady again.
Will also do yellow card
GS
x
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Hi
I've just heard from my gynae, she's just done me a script for 3mg sandrena via an online pharmacy so I'll have a bit of time to give it a test before I see her on 14th Feb, I'll also keep testing on day 12 of my cycle and post the results on this thread.
I'm unsure about equivalences as oestrogel is supposedly 0.75mg a pump which at the dose I was on = 4.1mg (but let's be honest, it's doing bugger all so maybe it doesn't matter?)
vs 3mg Sandrena
However, gynae's a good egg and generally does me generous scripts so I'll have enough to fiddle about with the dose. Just hoping I don't have to go through a wobbly patch until I feel steady again.
Will also do yellow card
GS
x
Did you have to up your dose due to the new bottles? I was told by my GP that 1.5mg of Sandrena was the maximum dose for Sandrena but I could up it a little bit if I felt I needed to. I have never needed to. 1.5mg may be all you need. My Gp said that if I did need to up the dose I would need to increase the Utrogesten I take to counter act that. I currently take 2 tablets for 14 days and then have a break for 14 days.
I would double check about the 3mg as that seems really high. It may be worth asking if there are any other ladies on here who are on 3mg of Sandrena.
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Hi RebJT
I was on 3 pumps of old oestrogel and everything was good
Like you, I'm a bit confused regarding equivalence of Sandrena and Oestrogel.
The conversion says 1 pump is the same as 0.5mg sachet of Sandrena... however in terms of oestrogen content, 1 pump produces 0.75mg.
I started Sandrena a few months ago and tried with 1.5 sachets (as directed) however, I found that this wasn't quite enough so I now take 2 sachets and am very happy. When I first started taking it 2 sachets was the max dose (2mg oestrogen). Now it seems advice is 1.5 sachets is the max.
I'm pretty cynical... I'm questioning whether Sandrena is being rationed now that so many women are ditching oestrogel.
Good news is Sandrena works. For some reason I find it works better splitting the dose.
Good luck xxx
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Hiya
Yes, my cousin is having that issue NHS, about 'max doses' - it's not actually true, any doctor can prescribe any dose if they justify why they've done it. I'm fortunate I'm private so my gynae is pretty good at looking at blood tests and symptoms - she wants my blood levels above 600, which clearly I'm not achieving on 5.5 pumps of oestrogel. My sis in law also had a total hysterectomy NHS and both her NHS gynae and GP wouldn't let her have any more than 4 pumps. She saw Nick Pannay, he put her on two x 100 patches (changed a day early) and top up oestrogel (her GP was appalled, but is doing as he's told!) and her blood levels are only 600, some people absorb differently. Surely doctors are supposed to be concerned with how the patient feels and what their blood levels show, and whether there are any abnormalities in the endometrium??
I'm also on a lower dose of P vaginally and I just have regular scans - the whole progesterone thing in the UK is overblown in my opinion as we are so stingy on scanning, in europe they scan women as a matter of course. Here we wang women on too much P and make them feel awful, depressed, fat and weepy! I'm also massively P sensitive.
Re dosing, that's helpful thank you, I've seen several stories like yours. I guess it's worth trying it at the lower dose of Sandrena, on the assumption that it'll actually absorb and improve my levels on a lesser dose, but yes I don't get the equivalence either. 5.5 pumps of oestrogel = just over 4mg of estradiol. 3 sachets is 3mg. I felt great on 4.5 pumps of oestrogel for a long time, and only increased the dose on the new cylinder bottles, so 3mg of sandrena is closer to my old dose. She's prescribed me enough to fiddle about with it too, it's just the adjustment period that's a drag!
Anyway, I'll report back and post blood results and we can compare notes.
Cheers
GS
x
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Reb, are you peri and how old are you? and (if this isn't too many questions) why does your dr want you to be around 600pmol?
Just asking because I'm on 6 pumps of this Oestrogel and only 334pmol. I don't seem to absorb from patches either as a 75 patch only gave me 198pmol. (That was why I switched to Oestrogel.) My dr said 400-600 is where most women are symptom-free.... I am probably going to switch to Sandrena next as well but not sure how to dose it. I'm with Newson so shouldn't have probs getting a higher dose.
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Hi RebJT,
Thank you so much. Its so good to be heard and not made to feel like I'm either doing something wrong or am mad.
Like you, I struggle with Utro. Even vaginally, it doesn't suit me - I feel awful on it. (In desperation I tried it rectally, and this so far has been by far the least problematic, although I am well aware it's not designed for this). I will be trying Cyclogest next....
Some on this forum once said "if I needed as much progesterone as the medic profession claim, my endometrial lining would be 5 inches thick"... and I agree. I don't believe all women need this uniform amount of progesterone.
Confession, I only take utrogestan every 2 or 3 months. My scan was absolutely fine. I'd never suggest other women do this. I'm just sharing my experience.
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I wonder why Besins don't seem particularly bothered by all the bad press? This has been going on for quite a long time now. Perhaps there's not much profit in manufacturing gel. Money's usually at the root of everything.
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Hi, I'm so glad I came across this post! I had heard about the new bottles possibly causing symptoms to come back but after reading all your replies I think I'm in the same boat, I feel dreadful 😞terrible joint pains, low mood, no energy to name a few. I was thinking I may have to give up work because of the pain. I have been on three pump of the new bottle for three of months at least now but previously I was the old bottle which made me feel almost normal. I really think it's the new bottle that is affecting me now.
I have just had my repeat prescription from the GP but I'm wondering if I should try Sandrena instead. Unfortunately I might have a fight on my hands as GP is not hrt savy.
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Hi, I'm so glad I came across this post! I had heard about the new bottles possibly causing symptoms to come back but after reading all your replies I think I'm in the same boat, I feel dreadful 😞terrible joint pains, low mood, no energy to name a few. I was thinking I may have to give up work because of the pain. I have been on three pump of the new bottle for three of months at least now but previously I was the old bottle which made me feel almost normal. I really think it's the new bottle that is affecting me now.
I have just had my repeat prescription from the GP but I'm wondering if I should try Sandrena instead. Unfortunately I might have a fight on my hands as GP is not hrt savy.
Sorry to hear you are suffering too. Please report your issues via yellow card. I have been prescribed an alternative which I have started this week.
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Reb, are you peri and how old are you? and (if this isn't too many questions) why does your dr want you to be around 600pmol?
Just asking because I'm on 6 pumps of this Oestrogel and only 334pmol. I don't seem to absorb from patches either as a 75 patch only gave me 198pmol. (That was why I switched to Oestrogel.) My dr said 400-600 is where most women are symptom-free.... I am probably going to switch to Sandrena next as well but not sure how to dose it. I'm with Newson so shouldn't have probs getting a higher dose.
Hiya, I'm 51 and my periods are still bang on 28 days. I've been on HRT since I was 46 ish. And yes Newsom should just up your dose til you feel better. I am pretty sure that Newsom did a survey on blood levels and symptoms? There's obviously a clear link between dose and blood levels. What's less clear is blood levels and symptoms. I think I saw it on instagram, will check. And pre starting HRT my levels were always high - 1,200, 1,500, 1,800, 2,000 etc so I'm one of those people who feel better with my levels further up in the range. I get horrible vaginal soreness, tiredness, fogginess, itchiness etc when my levels drop. Plus, I'm vain, and I like how plenty of oestrogen gives me nice bouncy skin!
I do not understand the NHS hysterics about pumps and doses, it doesn't sound evidence based. The reason I'm private is I had life threatening catastrophic thyroid disease (also hormonal disease), the NHS misdiagnosed me for ten years, and then utterly botched my care and replacement hormones. Having come up against the bohemoth of medicine, and frankly woman hating levels of sexism, and the madness of 'treatment pathways' (ie the good old boys got around a table and agreed on a consensus, with not much science involved) I decided the NHS was never coming near my hormones ever again! The deciding factor was asking for my notes, OMG the lies. It's not worth arguing. Private is obviously expensive from a consultation fee point of view, but I now only have one consult a year, and private HRT isn't that expensive. On balance it's worth it for me, as I have a lovely gynae who will listen, she really cares, and will get in the trenches with me to work it out.
GS
x
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PS along the way, I've learned it's always good to know more than your GP! The British Menopause Society's treatment guidelines (which NICE then draw on and stingily pare down) are worth a read https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053369116680501 Nick Pannay also wrote a book for GPs on management of the menopause, if you have a basic grip on science, it's pretty readable.
Nick Pannay is the NHS' head bloke on menopause, it was him who wrote to my Sis in Law's GP (who rang her at home and shouted (yes really) down the phone at her for ten minutes) and her back stop when the shouting starts again (I wish I was making this up) is 'are you saying you know more than Mr Nick Pannay, he wrote the guidelines?'
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Hi RebJT,
Thank you so much. Its so good to be heard and not made to feel like I'm either doing something wrong or am mad.
Like you, I struggle with Utro. Even vaginally, it doesn't suit me - I feel awful on it. (In desperation I tried it rectally, and this so far has been by far the least problematic, although I am well aware it's not designed for this). I will be trying Cyclogest next....
Some on this forum once said "if I needed as much progesterone as the medic profession claim, my endometrial lining would be 5 inches thick"... and I agree. I don't believe all women need this uniform amount of progesterone.
Confession, I only take utrogestan every 2 or 3 months. My scan was absolutely fine. I'd never suggest other women do this. I'm just sharing my experience.
I'm totally with you. My gynae says post meno I'm going to be one of those women who still does long cycle P with regular scans, three months E only then a short course of P and a withdrawal bleed, we'll see. I have histamine intolerance so whilst P is histamine calming to a point, it also rattles mast cells, so it's a tight rope. And honestly given my own health woes, people would be shocked to realse that much of what doctors solemnly declare as fact is no such thing!
And the French are big fans of administering drugs rectally, if it works, why not. Those baby scan places, it's about 60 quid for an endo scan, they are generally very lovely and respectful and send you an email of the images which I then send to my gynae. I used to live in Greece, you could literally walk into a gynae's office and get a scan for 15 euros. It's just bonkers that the NHS can't organise regular scans for women. Same on cervical smears, they stop those in late middle age despite one in five cervical cancer patients being over 65.
And I am of course not a doctor, and I have and listen to a doctor who is abreast of all the facts about me, but we know our bodies better than anyone. If the dose isn't equivalent, then it's not equivalent. I'm fortunate I have one of those lovely gynaes where I can say, I felt terrible on X so I put the dose up to Y and she says 'OK'.
DPD have just delivered my Sandrena, I've been hanging on for it to arrive, so wish me luck!
GS
x
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Hey
Sorry to spam the thread, but just been googling about Sandrena
Louise Newsom - some women find Sandrena absorbs differently https://www.balance-menopause.com/menopause-library/oestrogel-and-sandrena/
Think I've discovered the stinginess on dosing, Sandrena costs the NHS nearly three times as much (ignore dosing in this document) https://www.enhertsccg.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/content_files/Prescribing/Local_Decisions/Obstetrics_gynaecology_and_urinary_tract_disorders/Oestrogen%20gels%20%28Oestrogel%C2%AE%20%26%20Sandrena%C2%AE%29%20for%20hormone%20replacement%20therapy%20%E2%80%93%20Decision%20Document.pdf (link won't paste correctly, title of document is HERTFORDSHIRE MEDICINES MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE (HMMC) Oestrogel® & Sandrena® for transdermal Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT)
Dosing, Women's Health Concern (the patient arm of the BMS) https://www.womens-health-concern.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/27-WHC-FACTSHEET-HRT-Doses-NOV2022-A.pdf
On that last one see page 3 on equivalences. According to them:
Gel-pump 1 pump = 0.5mg sandrena sachet
2 pumps = 1 to 1.5 mg sandrena gel sachet
3-4 pumps = 2 to 3 mg Sandrena Gel-Sachet
Given a choice between trusting the NHS or trusting the British Menopause Society, I'm going with the BMS.
Hope that helps,
GS
x
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RebJT you are a star.
Like I said, 6 months ago 2mg was the 'maximum' dose. Now suddenly its 1.5mg.
And obviously the estrodoil content didn't tally either.
I was always sceptical, I thought it was to manage supply. Of course you're right. It's most likely all down to finances.
I also want to thank you for the information on progesterone. It seems to be a touchy subject here - but I have to do whats right for my individual body and I must not need much progesterone as 2 years on minimal utrogestan and a medium/high dose of estrogen has not resulted in a thickened womb lining. Great idea re. Getting scans done at an antenatal clinic.
And as for rectal utrogestan (some women on ivf do this but i do know its not designed to be taken this way) - I believe it is absorbed way better for me as it actually produced a sedative effect and crazy dreams.
Keep sharing your information. We need to heat more from people who the 'one size fits all' approaches are not working and possible solutions.
Thank you so much and good luck with Sandrena. Ixxx
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Hey
You're welcome! And I agree, this is a key women's health inequality issue (I was reading yesterday that only 2.1% of research spending is on women's reproductive health, we are 51% of the population!!).
As for dosing, I'm on day two, I was much more cheerful yesterday so something's happening but remains to be seen on dose, I'll keep testing (another top tip, oestrogen blood test only £50 at Nuffield Health through their online booking service, blood draw at your local Nuffield Hospital).
The main reason women give up on HRT is because of progesterone, I personally think it's unacceptable that so little work is going on in gynaecology to find workable solutions for those women who are really struggling (like PMDD, progesterone sensitivity can cause similar life cripling issues) other than 'we can cut your womb out'. It's like hysteria treatment 2.0.
Anyway, watch this space,
Cheers
GS
x
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Looks like I am going to be contacting my Dr to change from Oestrogel to try Sandrena ..,
I have been using the white top bottle for almost 2 months now and can safely say most of my symptoms are back - currently have a chevron type migraine which is the final crux of this 😡
… when on the blue top bottle had no issues and seemed to suit - going to do as others have done with contacting the supplier as another female not happy …/grr
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Hi Tynkabelle,
From myself, and the people o know, the transition to Sandrena (from Oestrogel) was very smooth.
Good luck xx
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Banjo - Thank you 👍😀
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Reb, sorry I missed your reply to me above. Thanks, that makes sense. I've also had a bad thyroid experience with the NHS - in that I'm a poor converter from T4 to T3, but they don't want to know because my TSH and free T4 were always normal. So I've had to go private to trial some thyroid meds to see if that helps my symptoms. I'm on both T4 and T3 at the moment (50mcg T4 and 30mcg T3 a day, with the T3 divided doses.) I am probably going to have to trial coming off the thyroid meds once I've experimented with them, as I'm not sure I need them and don't want to superstitiously be on thyroid meds for the rest of my life. I'm a bit anxious about coming off them...
And so yes I'm private for thyroid (with Dr Momi, started out with Dr Conway) and also HRT (newson)
By the way, have a listen (everyone) to this podcast, I love it, it's v smart and intelligent and essentially makes you rightly outraged at what women have to deal with: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/visible-women-with-caroline-criado-perez/id1627229311
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Hey
You're welcome! And I agree, this is a key women's health inequality issue (I was reading yesterday that only 2.1% of research spending is on women's reproductive health, we are 51% of the population!!).
As for dosing, I'm on day two, I was much more cheerful yesterday so something's happening but remains to be seen on dose, I'll keep testing (another top tip, oestrogen blood test only £50 at Nuffield Health through their online booking service, blood draw at your local Nuffield Hospital).
The main reason women give up on HRT is because of progesterone, I personally think it's unacceptable that so little work is going on in gynaecology to find workable solutions for those women who are really struggling (like PMDD, progesterone sensitivity can cause similar life cripling issues) other than 'we can cut your womb out'. It's like hysteria treatment 2.0.
Anyway, watch this space,
Cheers
GS
x
Hi RebJT
Can I ask what method you use to test your oestrogen please? x
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Well Drs were straightforward when I asked to change - no issues and immediately prescribed Sandrena and give them an update in 4 weeks.
I have completed the Yellow form and got a reply to answer a few questions and to wait till they advise where to send the Oestrogel bottles to.
I also emailed the supplier to add my name in relation to Oestrogel and also got a response confirming that an investigation was already underway and thanks etc
Thanks for providing links in the thread as contacts etc
Picked up the Sandrena today and it is going to be interesting in terms of correct dose. I read further above about what we should be on and saw about cost to NHS
I was on 4 pumps of Oestrogel and it looks like I am going to be on 1 sachet/1mg a day - which does not sound correct, but will give it a go
Thanks all for the advise 👍
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They have halved your dose surely? You want 2mg for equivalent.
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Aye, my thoughts exactly. Will see how it goes and then get back in touch with them 🤔
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Interestingly I have just received my new repeat pump packs, one is the cylindrical new style with white top in the branded box, the design of this box is slightly different to previous ones, the other is in a generic box marked on the side “procured from within the EU” & “ repackaged by pharmagen ltd” this pump pack is the old conical type with blue lid & green square, French text on the back but there was a large added on sticker in English on the front “ oestrogel pump pack 750 micrograms etc” peeling this off the label underneath has a blue swirl and Oestrodose on it . So the substandard stuff is being re-labelled to disguise it.
Also my repeat utrogestan has been substituted with a different micronised progesterone capsule manufactured by zentiva. Anyone else had any experience with this?
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Hi everyone
Just swinging by to update the thread. So I got my Sandrena script, 3mg which is slightly less mg to mg than what I was on on oestrogel. And .... it blew my socks off, felt unbelieably jittery, had instant vaginal soreness (could be histamine from influx of oestrogen or sudden drop in oestrogen), terrible sleep, massive nigh sweats (again you can get sweats on too much E as well as too little) and generally thrown into chaos.
I am so busy at work and can't afford to drop the ball (or faff about for months with doses) so this experiment was shortlived, I came off Sandrena and went back on oestrogel, hung on til day 12 and tested again, and blood levels down AGAIN to 205!
To recap:
4.5 pumps, day 12, May 2023, E = 1590 (old bottle)
4.5 pumps, day 12 Nov 2023 E = 321 (new cylinder bottle)
5.5 pumps day 12, Jan 2024 E = 271
5.5 pumps day 12, Feb 2024 E = 205
Had a consult with gynae who said a) if enough women are moaning, then in her experience, regardless of what the manufacturer says, they've done something to the product and b) increase the dose and test again and then we'll decide what to do. Options are retry Sandrena starting on a lower starting dose and titrating (a faff), try patches (ditto -my sis in law does this, she's also a poor absorber and she now takes 2 x 100 patches changed a day early achieving blood levels post early hysterectomy of around 700).
However, I went up a pump (this is incredible to me, I'm on 6.5 pumps, I'm only 51) which did solve the demented vaginal soreness and I feel a bit perkier, but I've now had a short cycle and a horrible clotting manky bleed which would suggest too much sodding oestrogen (which begs the question why is it not showing up in my blood???) - gritting my teeth til testing again in a couple of weeks.
I did find an old bottle with a green lid under my bed (I chuck all my scripts in a box) and tried that this morning, and that's blown my socks off too, so I think it's fair to say, the repackaged product is now duff.
Also, from reading Sandrena reaches peak concentration 6 hours after application, oestrogel reaches peak after 3 - 5 days so I think probably there's a more vertical experience of getting on sandrena.
Also, Im a duffer at science, but from what I'm reading I don't think oestrogel was ever designed to reach youthful levels of E, from reading around the manufacturers say it's meant to achieve blood levels of about 200. In contrast the manufacturers of Evorel 100 say it's supposed to achieve blood levels of about 370 (which would explain my sis in Law's 700 with 2 x 100) - maybe I'm misunderstanding this and someone better at all this can explain??
See "Pharmacokinetic properties"
https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/353/smpc#gref - Oestrogel "The time-averaged serum oestradiol and estrone concentrations (C average) over the 24hour dose interval after administration of 2.5 g of Oestrogel on Day 12 were 76.8 pg/ml and 95.7 pg/ml, respectively." pg/ml converted to the UK pmol is 282.
https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/10932/smpc#gref - 100 patch, max level 655, average 382.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding?? Anyway, I'm looking and feeling like a woman with unbalanced hormones and now have the delightful new symptom of constant nagging lower back pain, which given my initial dexa by Prof Studd in 2019 was dreadful, with massive bone loss, I'm not too happy about.
No idea what to do to help myself without totally destabilising myself and kicking off largely controlled histamine symptoms which took years of painstaking effort to get sorted, whilst very carefully managing my HRT!
So that's the news
Reb
x
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Hi RebJT.
3mg of Sandrena seems an awful lot!
I take 1.5mg daily split into 0.5 at night and 1 in the morning. I have found it so much better than even the old oestrogen bottles.
I hope you find an answer for you soon x
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Hiya
It's all so confusing isn't it, she's working off this which is the BMS guide to dosing https://www.womens-health-concern.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/27-WHC-FACTSHEET-HRT-Doses-NOV2022-A.pdf
That says 2-3mg of Sandrena is equivalent to 3 - 4 pumps of oestrogel, and I've been on 5.5 pumps of oestrogel for a good while (up from a very long and stable and happy time on the old bottles at 4.5 pumps)
It's not so much the dose as the time it takes to get the dose right and the accompanying instability (and for me horrible symptoms and struggle to work and focus) that I can't really afford right now. No idea what to do!
My gyane said she's always happy to prescribe off licence with regular tests as it's just a fact that women absorb differently and NHS cut offs are a bit of a nonsense.
Not that that solves the actual issue!
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Reb... I'm on 8 pumps of estrogel now.
Look...
If you're in peri, then your own levels are fluctuating massively and testing is going to be very difficult. If you still have usually regular cycles, you need to test during your period when your own estrogen will be very low. That should give you a more consistent reading of what the Oestrogel is giving you. I always test day 3-5 of my period. Unless you did that with all those list of tests, they are pretty meaningless... Testing day 12 is going to give you a LOAD of your own estrogen, often.
Another thing about blood tests... Whilst your ovaries can contribute more estrogen, they can't take any away. So if you are EVER getting low results (like your 205), that's a better indication of what you're getting from the Oestrogel. That 205 might have some from you, still. But you're not getting much from the gel...
Lastly, don't worry about the bleed. It is very normal if you increase (or reduce or adjust) estrogen, that you will get a bleed. That is why bleeding in the first 3 months of starting or changing HRT is discounted. It doesn't mean you are taking too much estrogen. (I bled after increasing to 8 pumps.)
With trying to work out what is equivalent to what, (how much gel equals how much Sandrena etc) all those calculations don't take into account how you (or any woman) absorbs the individual products. So they are really just a broad general gist of what is most average, in terms of what equals what. Really every time you switch to a new product you are starting again with trying to get the levels right going by symptoms and to a lesser extent, bloods.
This is one reason I'm reluctant to change from gel, even though I'm now at the most ridiculous level of 8 pumps. (Which is giving me around 400pmol.) If you'd told me before I started gel that I would end up on 8 pumps, I'd have chosen a different product. But now I'm on 8 pumps and starting to feel like myself again and sleep better, I'm very reluctant to change again.
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Thanks
Yes, it's so frustrating isn't it! I wouldn't mind if I felt OK! I understand all that, gynae told me to test day 9 but I ended up on 12 as that was the slot I could get, and then kept it the same for consistency, but could change it to earlier in cycle, but my results are consistently low now, after being consistently good (we're aiming for a steady level of north of 600) and more to the point, feeling good.
What I meant about products is I dont' think oestrogel was ever intended to achieve 'good' levels, just to keep women off the deck. But I'm sitting here now jitterbugging on 6 pumps of the old gel, so I'd say it's defo the product that has changed (maybe some cunning plan by the manufacturer to profiteer on ever increasing doses!). Do you find the alcohol in it dries your skin, I'm slapping so much on every day, my skin is like sandpaper!
I honestly cannot have any more time off work, certainly not now, I have a very busy job and have far too many plates to spin so even if I was to switch I can't do it now, I just wish it was simpler. That said my gynae is totally cool with me increasing doses, I just email her, and she adjusts my script. My only slight worry is I'm really prog sensitive, so having enough P for protection might become an issue as it took me over a year to build my tolerance to 12 doses of utro.
And yes my cycles are bang on 28 days normally, they only tend to get short if I overshoot on the E a bit, but will grit my teeth and test. No idea what would be day 3-5 now, from teh calendar or the bleed?
Anyway, thanks. I'm just incredibly frustrated, me getting to the point where I had my life back without catastrophic histamine and mast cell issues, and then getting on a dose that made life worth living has taken forever, I was so bloomin' diligent, I'm quite annoyed that a manufacturer would be so cavalier with women's health (not helped by the patronising nonsense in the Lancet the morning!).
Thanks
Reb
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Hi Reb,
Sorry to hear things aren't going well. I've been on Sandrena for a few months and I don't feel completely settled.
I was happy on 3 pumps of old Oestrogel (never felt great on even 7 pumps of new oetrogel).
I started in 1.5 sachets of Sandrena, it was better than new Oestrogel, but wasn't enough so ignored advice and went up to 2. I occasionally have hot episodes at night and so have recently have added a 1/4 sachet and that seems to be working for me.
Unlike Oestrogel, I find Sandrena works best when I split the dose.
I wish you luck x
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Hi Banjo
Thanks! I am just so frustrated with them, as I have other health issues, plus peri triggered mast cell and histamine issues, so it's been a long, long, long road and I was finally doing well, taken on more work (I freelance, don't work, don't get paid, cost of living kicking my butt, I simply cannot go to pieces!!), lost weight, was fit, all other issues under control, was happy and WHAM! Not to mention the NHS is useless so getting there has cost me literal thousands in private consults, private scripts, private blood tests etc etc. I think that stupid, patronising article in the Lancet yesterday ('menopause is not a disease' - spare yourself the rage of reading it) was the last straw! This is our lives, our health, our happiness, our sanity!
I found an old green lid bottle in my box yesterday and took my new higher dose but with the old oestrogel, I felt like I'd had 20 cups of coffee all day yesterday and was awake til gone 4am with REALLY sore boobs and nausea, and just feeling jittery, so I'm absolutely convinced it's the new oestrogel. It's p*ss weak to be blunt!
I am going to hang on to test properly on this new dose (following the advice of the lady upthread, at low E point of my own cycle) and after that I am going to have to do something, as given my years of untreated hyperthyroidism (long story) and then peri woes, I've already lost a lot of bone, and my back hurts, I never ever get back pain (I'm a power yoga devotee) so that is really worrying me, as is the MEH frumpy, miserable feeling. I just lay awake last night and finally got to sleep once I'd stop churning it in my mind and just decided 'I'm not having this', lol.
Sandrena, at 3mg massively ramped me up, I felt jittery, anxious and wired, but also had immediate vag soreness and huge night sweats for the first time (that could be histamine from influx of E, or plummeting E levels from even worse absorption, no idea) so I'm really scared, but I can't carry on on this rubbish. I also have a stash of Evorel and my gynae is pretty good, so she'd give me estradot if I asked, I'm just dreading having to throw myself into chaos. But with levels at 205 at the peak of my own cycle, it's a fair deduction that oestrgel is doing absolutely nothing.
I'm glad you are doing OK, have you tested your blood levels to know where Sandrena is roughly landing you on replacement? Did you get any jitters when starting it? I really hate the revved up chemically feeling.
Thanks
(a sleep deprived)
Reb
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SO agree. I was on it as I said for over 20 years originally with no problems at all but when I went back on it after the shortages it was a nightmare. My blood level was only 55 pmol and Meno consult said I might as well not be on HRT at all even though I was on the same dose plus going up higher than I had been over the past 20 years.. The composition has most definitely changed from the original Oestrogel no question.
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Hey
Bless you, that must have been enraging! And scary! What do you take now if you don't mind me asking? Did it take a while to find a replacement? When I get a bit more time I'm going to read this entire thread, so sorry if you've already said.
And my gynae said that, if enough women are complaining, then no matter what the manufacturer says, they've reforumulated it (I had this with thyroid meds a few years ago, same thing, a tsunami of very ill people all of a sudden - with blood tests to prove it - and total denials from the manufacturers). I suspect this is about money, partly because women are demanding HRT, and partly because if women need to use more of it, they make more profit.
I appreciate this isn't the (health) point, but despite my lack of sleep I look the best I've looked for months this morning - no crepey neck that was creeping in, skin looks radiant, nice and bouncy, no issues with intermittent constipation, no swollen fingers, no lower back pain, and despite being tired I feel quite chipper and more to the point galvanised. Absolutely sod this for a game of soldiers!
Because of my job, I write a good campaigning letter so I will be sorting out yellow card, and writing to Besins.
And then I need to work out what I'm going to do, I think patches first, Sandrena made me very buzzy, but perhaps it'd be OK if I started on a lower dose, no idea!
Anyway, thanks for replying, it's not right they're allowed to do this to us and get away with it. Many women relied on oestrogel for their quality of life.
Reb x
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Hi RebJT - oh what a roller coaster this all is isn't it. There is absolutely no doubt that Oestrogel has changed no matter what Besins say. I too wrote to them complaining and got some standard letter back. I reported it all on the Yellow card system as well as it really did make me unwell and just reading some of the threads on here about other ladies who have noticed the change in it is proof enough as well. I was changed onto Estradot and although it has taken a long while to get to the right dose (I am stupidly sensitive to any dose change) I have been feeling really well the last few months on a dose of one 37.5 patch plus half a 37.5 patch but I change them every other day as they just don't last the 3/4 days for me personally. The Meno consultant I see was more than happy with this and said it is about how you feel and far less than the actual blood level of oestrogen. I found the dose I was originally recommended of a75 patch way too high for me personally.
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Hi Banjo
Thanks! I am just so frustrated with them, as I have other health issues, plus peri triggered mast cell and histamine issues, so it's been a long, long, long road and I was finally doing well, taken on more work (I freelance, don't work, don't get paid, cost of living kicking my butt, I simply cannot go to pieces!!), lost weight, was fit, all other issues under control, was happy and WHAM! Not to mention the NHS is useless so getting there has cost me literal thousands in private consults, private scripts, private blood tests etc etc. I think that stupid, patronising article in the Lancet yesterday ('menopause is not a disease' - spare yourself the rage of reading it) was the last straw! This is our lives, our health, our happiness, our sanity!
I found an old green lid bottle in my box yesterday and took my new higher dose but with the old oestrogel, I felt like I'd had 20 cups of coffee all day yesterday and was awake til gone 4am with REALLY sore boobs and nausea, and just feeling jittery, so I'm absolutely convinced it's the new oestrogel. It's p*ss weak to be blunt!
I am going to hang on to test properly on this new dose (following the advice of the lady upthread, at low E point of my own cycle) and after that I am going to have to do something, as given my years of untreated hyperthyroidism (long story) and then peri woes, I've already lost a lot of bone, and my back hurts, I never ever get back pain (I'm a power yoga devotee) so that is really worrying me, as is the MEH frumpy, miserable feeling. I just lay awake last night and finally got to sleep once I'd stop churning it in my mind and just decided 'I'm not having this', lol.
Sandrena, at 3mg massively ramped me up, I felt jittery, anxious and wired, but also had immediate vag soreness and huge night sweats for the first time (that could be histamine from influx of E, or plummeting E levels from even worse absorption, no idea) so I'm really scared, but I can't carry on on this rubbish. I also have a stash of Evorel and my gynae is pretty good, so she'd give me estradot if I asked, I'm just dreading having to throw myself into chaos. But with levels at 205 at the peak of my own cycle, it's a fair deduction that oestrgel is doing absolutely nothing.
I'm glad you are doing OK, have you tested your blood levels to know where Sandrena is roughly landing you on replacement? Did you get any jitters when starting it? I really hate the revved up chemically feeling.
Thanks
(a sleep deprived)
Reb
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Hi Reb,
I'm doing OK on Sandrena. Not brilliantly like I was in 3 pumps of old Oestrogel, but I'm still at that adjustment phase. I'm having bloods done next week so I'll know more then. Interestingly I started a new tin of Tostran (testosterone) in December. That too is different to my old tin (miles weaker) so I'm having to adjust that too. It's a nightmare of guess work and I just wish I could go back 12 months and stockpile the good stuff!
I think 3 grams of Sandrena was probably too much too soon. I started on 1.5 (and was on 6/7 pumps of Oestrogel). After a few weeks I went up to 2. Was ok on that but not amazing. I've upped by a tiny amount (and have also increased testosterone) once I get my bloods back I can decide where I go from there.
Reb, unfortunately we don't have no time machine to get old Oestrogel!!! So I would suggest trying Sandrena again, but 1.5 for s while then adjust.
Good luck x
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Hi both
Thanks for your comments, Thank God we have each other! My sleep is still rubbish quality but slept through the night at least. So many people I speak to are having this issue. I've just bought some digital scales (a fiver on Amazon) just to satisfy my own curiosity re dose size, but I think the key issue is the formula (this is what my gynae said, they'll have changed it) - perhaps they're fobbing off oestrodose as the real thing, who knows? I'm now on 6.5 pumps and hanging on to test.
Glad you are now steady and feeling good now Pippa, sounds like you were on 3 pumps of gel, but on just a smidge over 50 on the patch, that's good to know as my 'sweet spot' on gel was 4.5 so maybe an 100 would hit the spot if I absorb OK. And Banjo, if you feel comfortable, be interested to know your bloods next week and if they've picked up on Sandrena.
I'm just worried about the faffing, it really knocks me around the instability, and I resent it too!
Anyway, I wrote a humdinger of a letter (with my feminist hat on, of the 'I'm at the peak of my career, I haven't got time for this nonsense, I've put my money and trust in yor product and do expect it to be repaid' variety) to Besins and had a reply less than 24 hours later, which I copy below. I've also had another email asking me for the batch numbers (which misses the point, it's the entire thing since that change) and they'll collect from my pharmacy if I send them back.
Besins say:
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with us. We are sorry to hear of the challenges you've faced while using the cylindrical Oestrogel (estradiol) Pump-Pack 750 micrograms/actuation gel. We appreciate your feedback, and we understand the impact it has had on your quality of life.
We take your concerns seriously and want to assure you that we are actively investigating the issues you've raised. Quality and consistency are paramount to us, and we are committed to addressing any discrepancies in the dispenser functionality and product performance. We have already initiated a thorough investigation to identify any underlying issues.
We have also forwarded your details to our Drug Safety and Product Quality teams. They will contact you to gather more information concerning the report you have made regarding the return of symptoms while using the cylindrical bottle. This information will aid our investigation of your case.
Please be assured that we take your concerns seriously and we appreciate your patience as we work to address these issues.
Make of that what you will - I'm tempted to reply, saying just change it back!
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I reported this last August and received this reply,
We take the safety and quality of our products seriously. As part of a pharmaceutical company’s statutory requirement imposed by the regulatory authorities, Besins Healthcare is required to follow up on any suspected adverse events that we become aware of concerning our medicines. This helps us to monitor the safety profile of our medicines.
For this reason, it would be useful for Besins Healthcare UK to contact your doctor or another healthcare professional regarding this report.
It seems they take it so seriously that they are happy to keep supplying the same inferior product for months and months!
I gave them permission to contact my doctor and still nothing has changed
It is infuriating that they seem to just be able to keep fobbing us all off with no real action! :bang:
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I know
I mean there is a possibility, at the scale this seems to be, that they're scrambling around but still acting in good faith, could it be a bad batch, a duff load of wholesale raw ingredients, a manfucturing error, a formula change they thought would have no impact but did, but if they know anything, they should be recalling product or swapping back to previous container until the problem is solved or whatever it is. I suspect it's widespread, my guess is ingredient change, worsened by inferior dispenser, that's a major headache for a company.
My entire life right now rests entirely on being able to function through the menopause, it's not like it's a pair of shoes, or a faulty washing machine, a pain but not life wrecking! Same for all other women in this boat. It's not a little thing, or a minor glitch, it's fairly major. If it was a diabetes drug or something, there'd be uproar, it's the casual sexism of it all that really grinds my gears.
I've dug two other cannisters out of the recycling, plus the one I'd saved, the rest I've already thrown away. Not sure how much help it'll be, seeing as I use one cannister every ten days ish, and the slide into symptoms will have been gradual, not sure you could point to one bottle and say 'this is the culprit'.
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Sometimes, with the new pump mechanism, there's some kind of an air fart thing that happens and I don't get a full dose. If it is a tiny dose, I can see that easily. But sometimes it's not very clear this has happened. So I wonder if the pump is just crap...
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I think it is more of a problem with the product rather than the dispenser. I noticed there was a different consistency and a slightly different smell. I was given some Oestrodose to try and that was the same as the so called Oestrogen in the new bottles. Like someone has mentioned previously, I think they are maybe trying to pass that off as Oestrogel due to the shortages.
I now used Sandrena which comes in a sachet. I use 1.5mg so I have to split a sachet for part of my dose. It is hard to get the same amount each time but it does not effect me at all. Unlike when I was using the new cap dispenser.
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Like you guys above I have contacted Besins and MHRA/yellow card and have had similar worded responses, I have 5 bottles they can have back but they only want the 1st one I mentioned at the start, the chemist will be getting the lot regardless!
My Dr has been fab, changed me to Sandrena without any fuss, although prescribed too low a dose, but there was surplus in the packs to test - for me, after trying 1,1.5 and 2mg, the 2mg a day suits. Just had my next 2 month prescription approved - 1x Utrogestan and 2x 1mg Sandrena per day.
Just annoying that they haven’t recalled Oestrogel or admit something has gone wrong with the current batches.
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I will post back with my blood results next week, I just wanted to reinforce what others have said on here that it's not the pump, the dispenser, or anything else to do with the packaging or amount dispensed. It is absolutely a different product. Different texture for one (sticky not silky) but most importantly weak as f***. I more than doubled my dose and still didn't feel right.
In my opinion, the packaging is a red herring that Besins can use as an explanation rather than admitting the product changed. I think I had my first cylindrical batch in April 2023. This is not a rogue batch. And it's making me rage!!!
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Banjo 1973 you are spot on it is the actual gel that has changed I am living proof having been happy and well on the 'old Oestrogel' for over 20 years - completely different to the insipid formulation in the latest Oestrogel which made me feel dreadful and dropped my oestrogen blood levels so low that I may as well not be on HRT at all as stated by my Meno Consultant.
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Reb JT - I too bought digital scales and weighed out the Oestrogel so was getting EXACTLY the same dose every day which made no difference I still felt dreadful and when I got my blood level results I could see why 55 pmol!!! Crazy. You are dead right the issue is the formula which is so insipid and weak it is useless at the old doses. Makes you wonder if it's a money making exercise from Besins - people using more gel so more sales! I am personally beyond disgusted with Besins and certainly won't ever be using any product made from them again. It made me really unwell for a long time despite them denying several times that anything had changed with the make up of the gel. I thought I was going totally bonkers. Am very glad to be rid of it and I returned my remaining Oestrogel to the pharmacy so they could dispose of it. xx
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I agree it’s a different product and in my experience likely to be Oestrodose.
In 2020 I was happily on estrogel and got prescribed Oestrodose and was vomiting and feeling desperately depressed overnight. I reported it via yelllow card back then. And despite sooo many people gaslighting me that it’s the same it just wasn’t. And now they’ve changed completely over more people are noticing. Awful.
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Scampidoodle - 100% its changed no doubt about it x
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I am getting my oestrodial levels checked and will include my results when I send off my details to Besins, following my yellow card report. I am expecting it to show a significant drop compared to when I was using old Oestrogel, given the reversion to all my old menopausal symptoms. I am post menopausal, so the results should reflect the effect of Oestrogel, as my natural levels had dropped beyond what is measurable.
What I have just found, however, is that I am spreading the gel too thinly. I use 4 pumps, which according to Besins, should be spread over 750cm2. When I drew that area out on a piece of paper and measured the area I was spreading it on my upper arms and inner thighs, it was being spread over far too great an area on my thighs. I have made a paper template now to guide me and see if that makes any difference, given that I am someone who doesn't absorb well transdermally.
This doesn't explain why the new Oestrogel isn't working of course. The new pump is definitely erratic and usually delivers less than the old stuff ( I now weigh each dose and top it up) and the gel itself is undoubtedly different. The vapour from the old stuff was so strong, it used to make me cough, whereas the new gel hardly smells.
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I've experimented with spreading over more or less area and it hasn't made any difference to me. What is 750cm2 when we're talking pieces of paper? I think I spread each blob over roughly an A5 piece of paper area...
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Hi Joziel
A5 will be too much. 29cm x 26 cm = 754. I cut out a strip of paper that is 22 cm x 8.5 cm, which comes to 748 cm2 if multiplied by 4. I then use that to mark out each application area and use that to guide where I apply the gel. I don't rub it in, as was advised by my meno specialist, who was involved in the original Oestrogel trials, that it should be left on the skin in a thin layer for the alcohol to draw it down under the skin.
I have only tried this method today, so too early to say if it will make a difference but the constant headache, which I have had for several days, has now lifted and my joints have stopped aching this afternoon. Placebo effect perhaps but we will have to see.
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I was told to just use my finger tips rather than applying it like sun lotion. That was a game changer. :)
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I also do that in order to minimise the amount absorbed by your hands. Prior to all these problems with the new gel, I used to apply it directly from the pump to my arm or leg but now I have to weigh the damn stuff.
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I use a silicone spatula so I don't get any on my hands and it's all on my body.
I'll try spreading over a smaller area but it already takes so long to dry I don't fancy leaving a thicker layer on me...
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Hi Ladies
Just chiming in to agree with you all, it's defo the product, not helped by duff dispenser - so not only is the formula different (I'd bet my life savings on this!) but the dose will be inconsistent day to day due to crappy dispenser.
I'm now on 7 pumps, and feeling vaguely human, and vag soreness gone, getting a bit more deep sleep through the night (according to my fit bit) - testing on 20th, and then will need to test again shortly afterwards during my period, and then stick to testing during bleed from there on out, so I have a better idea of what the product is doing. However, given I pay for this privately, I'm not going to keep paying for ever increasing doses at a tenner a cannister.
I also read and reread the leaflet, it says five rapid pumps to 'prime' the dispenser - it's still doing farty duff doses despite this, and the doses defo get smaller as the level in the bottle drops.
I also agree that sending back cannisters is a whole load of 'busy work' as the cannister is secondary to the actual product, which isn't doing its job at ever increasing doses.
For now I'm happy to keep slapping it on as I have a whole box of gel as I got two repeats in one go, so I have a stash (which I've already paid for) whilst I test and figure out with my gynae over the next few weeks what we're going to do (and hopefully try and juggle my diary and deadlines a bit to give me a bit of flex to transition onto a new product without bringing the whole lot down on my head!).
Reb
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I've experimented with spreading over more or less area and it hasn't made any difference to me. What is 750cm2 when we're talking pieces of paper? I think I spread each blob over roughly an A5 piece of paper area...
Is the 750cm2 per pump or per dose?? I’ve been rubbing 1 pump on each leg over an a4 size … sounds like that’s too spread out ?!!
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Hi
Just been messing about with scales. By weight consistently 0.78g when it should be 1.25g.
So by weight 40% less. So laying aside formula, I'd need NINE pumps by weight for same dose.
I've just tweeted BMS and Louise Newsom, a doctor needs to speak up.
I'm starting a spreadsheet - batch no and weight by pump.
And yes formula also but this is woeful.
Sooner I'm off this crap the better.
Reb
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I don't know whether this will help but I heard somewhere it's important with these bottles is to make sure it's completely upright before pressing down the pump.
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I don't know whether this will help but I heard somewhere it's important with these bottles is to make sure it's completely upright before pressing down the pump.
I didn't know that, thank you ❤️
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Thanks
But who has got time for that standing there in their bra and pants, in a hurry to get dressed for work? The new leaflet says 5 swift depressions to prime it roo (rather than the previous 2) - it doesn't prime it, it still sputters.
They should be recalling this product, imho.
Reb
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Hi
To add, weighed all my doses this morning with the bottle upright and all were under 0.8 - so still 40% less.
Reb
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Hi
To add, weighed all my doses this morning with the bottle upright and all were under 0.8 - so still 40% less.
Reb
Were all the same or did they vary? I have never had the old bottle you are discussing but I do feel there is some variation within doses of the new bottle.
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Besins need to accept there is a problem with the gel and sort it. Its making so many women feel unwell and not controlling their symptoms. Its just not acceptable >:(
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Penguin - this is the new bottle, they were all the same. I'm going to compare to the one old bottle I've got left later, but another woman posted vids on Insta, and all her old bottles were 1.25 on the nose, because the dispenser actually worked. Digi scales are a fiver on Amazon, I hope more women start doing this and reporting it.
I'm going to create a spreadsheet logging batch number and weight of each pump until I switch off this gel, and then I'm going to write again to Besins and tell them sending back ad hoc bottles misses the point, it's ALL the bottles. That's before we get onto the formula, which also seems different.
Pippa, totally agree, they should be recalling this product (but that would cause a panic, I suppose, which might explain why doctors are ignoring us as well!). I also noticed that Besins profits are up by 25%.
It's the women on NHS I feel super sorry for, my cousin has been told 4 pumps is the max dose, like it or lump it, and now we all know that 4 pumps is about 2 pumps in 'old money' - best case scenario - worst case, it's less potent by volume also.
What a shambles, I feel a letter to a newspaper coming on!
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I had sputtery one once with the old green square bottles. I just didn't use it as it was obv faulty.
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I have now btw been given bloody oestrodose. God knows what that will be like!
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Gnatty
Bless you. I suspect it's all oestrodose now, and they're just pretending it isn't. That's what I'd do if I was a profit making company, cut overheads by having one product, marketed differently in different territories, in the cheapest possible packaging, farmed out to third parties if that's cheaper than having and owning all the capital kit yourself (even better if you can get away with causing your customers to use more of the product).
Or as my fella remarked about Charlie Bingham ready meals, the portions have got smaller but the price has gone up.
x
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I was given a bottle of Oestrodose which the pharmacist thought was one of the old bottles of Oestrogen, as they were the same shape.
It had exactly the same smell and consistency of the stuff in the new canisters!
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Penguin - this is the new bottle, they were all the same. I'm going to compare to the one old bottle I've got left later, but another woman posted vids on Insta, and all her old bottles were 1.25 on the nose, because the dispenser actually worked. Digi scales are a fiver on Amazon, I hope more women start doing this and reporting it.
I'm going to create a spreadsheet logging batch number and weight of each pump until I switch off this gel, and then I'm going to write again to Besins and tell them sending back ad hoc bottles misses the point, it's ALL the bottles. That's before we get onto the formula, which also seems different.
Pippa, totally agree, they should be recalling this product (but that would cause a panic, I suppose, which might explain why doctors are ignoring us as well!). I also noticed that Besins profits are up by 25%.
It's the women on NHS I feel super sorry for, my cousin has been told 4 pumps is the max dose, like it or lump it, and now we all know that 4 pumps is about 2 pumps in 'old money' - best case scenario - worst case, it's less potent by volume also.
What a shambles, I feel a letter to a newspaper coming on!
Thanks!
So would my 1 pump be actually only half a pump of the old stuff?
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Hi
I can't say on oestrodose, just on old bottle oestrogel to new cannister, some women seem to do OK on oestrodose, others have a horrible time. I'm really angry any of us are in this situation, it's not a dripping tap, it's our abilty to function and live our lives, we shouldn't be trying to work it out on our own on the internet!
I think you'll notice pretty quickly if your levels start to drop, I certainly did - switching to cannisters triggered a bleed for me. At least with the old shape bottles the dispenser seems accurate, so I suppose your question is about the potency of the gel, rather than the measure of gel by volume.
Sorry that probably doesn't help, others might know if they've also tried oestrodose.
Reb
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I've experimented with spreading over more or less area and it hasn't made any difference to me. What is 750cm2 when we're talking pieces of paper? I think I spread each blob over roughly an A5 piece of paper area...
Is the 750cm2 per pump or per dose?? I’ve been rubbing 1 pump on each leg over an a4 size … sounds like that’s too spread out ?!!
750 cm2 is for 4 pumps, so around 187 cm2 per pump. If you measure this out, it is 22 cm x 8.5 cm, (or any other measurement that comes to 187 when you times a number by another number - 22 x 8.5 just fits well on my upper arm). So, it is much less than A4. It doesn't have to be exact though. Besins don't give any measurements in their leaflets but this is what was used in the drug trials, so I think it is a good idea to keep it within that range roughly. Certainly, I am feeling better by doing so. Not back to how I felt on old Oestrogel levels yet but headache gone, joints not aching and am sleeping better but only been spreading over this smaller area for 3 days. But you do need to weigh it as well, as others have found, the new pump doesn't dispense enough!
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Hi
Just been messing about with scales. By weight consistently 0.78g when it should be 1.25g.
So by weight 40% less. So laying aside formula, I'd need NINE pumps by weight for same dose.
I've just tweeted BMS and Louise Newsom, a doctor needs to speak up.
I'm starting a spreadsheet - batch no and weight by pump.
And yes formula also but this is woeful.
Sooner I'm off this crap the better.
Reb
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Hi Reb
I previously sent a record of my pump weights and cannister details to Besins after a previous complaint. They just said they would look into it. But I think the more people that do this, the harder it will be to ignore. Clearly the pump is faulty and should be changed.
As far as the gel is concerned, I wonder if this is how Besins have always made it, as I have read that there have been issues with Oestrodose for several years. This is made for the French market by Besins but was sometimes imported into the UK at times of shortage. People have said it always seemed to be weaker than old Oestrogel, although I've never had it myself. Someone on another forum said that Oestrogel for the UK market was previously made by another company, presumably under license from Besins. This then changed when Besins bought the factory off this company when demand for HRT rocketed in the UK. The intention was to use the whole of this factory in Belgium just for manufacturing HRT to meet this new demand. I have not found any evidence to confirm that another company previously made Oestrogel for the UK but Besins did buy this factory in Belgium in order to ramp up supply:
https://www.pharmiweb.com/press-release/2022-06-22/besins-healthcare-group-acquires-hormonal-gel-manufacturing-site
If this is the case, it might explain why Besins insist 'nothing has changed' as this is the way they have always made it at other sites. However, this is all just speculation on my part.
I am not on Twitter/X but would be interested to hear if Louise Newson responds. I know she has conducted a poll on whether people are finding the new gel to be effective, which I believe over 2/3 aren't.
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UPDATE
Hi,
I switched from useless new oestrogel to Sandrena a few months ago. Although Sandrena has been wonderful compared to new Oestrogel, I never felt as good as I did on 3 pumps of old Oestrogel plus testosterone. I've been tweeking amounts and have been on 2g of Sandrena per day (sometimes a little bit more)
My blood results are: 587 pmol/L
That must mean I'm absorbing well (I think)
Unfortunately my testosterone results are high... I'll start a new thread for that one!
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Hiya
Bango, those are GREAT results, from just 2mg too, that's brilliant, OK that gives me hope! Great you are feeling better.
I'm feeling MUCH perkier for 7 pumps, and spreading over a smaller area (takes yonks to dry so I'm swanning about in my undies for ages). Also to add, if I stand the cannister on a hard surface and prop the scales on a pile of books to just under the spout, and properly press it firmly down, I can just about squeeze out 1.2g of gel, but everyone I know and all demo vids I've seen is a woman holding it in one hand and pumping it into the other. Holding it tilted in my hand onto the scale, 0.8g every time. Also, the doses defo get smaller as you get through the bottle, that didn't happen on old oestrogel until right down to the last few bits.
Chopsuey (great name, makes me think of Hong Kong Phoeey's side kick!) yes, from a profit point of view, it makes sense they'd do this, and use the most inexpensive packaging, and also given the uptick in women asking for HRT, use the most cost effective way of producing it, and cut out any third parties if return made it worthwhile. I've never tried Oestrodose but I know some women had a miserable time when switched over.
On Louise Newsom, I'm not a massive fan of hers, she's done a lot on education but strikes me as a bit of a one trick pony, who is a bit cavalier (and charging consultant gynae prices for a GP practice!) - heard a few horror stories. She's ticked off breast cancer docs today, I appreciate HRT post BC is controverial and do think there's a convo to be hard re risk vs quality of life for some women (my mum had a horrible horrible time on tamoxifen and into meno with no HRT, inc quite serious health consequences now she's elderly) but she isn't a specialist and I think is about to be told to stay in her lane. However, she is high profile, so if she said something about gel, it would get attention.
Testing on 20th, and still mulling my options.
Cheers
Reb
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I found this whilst I was looking for info on the use of Oestrogel:
https://www.instagram.com/p/COilhbUM7sw/?utm_medium=copy_link&img_index=1
It describes how the oestrogen is absorbed into the skin and advises against rubbing it in, which causes the alcohol to evaporate too quickly before the oestrogen can sink into the skin. I wonder if spreading the gel over too big an area has a similar effect, as the alcohol would also evaporate more quickly this way. I might contact Besins and see what they have to say about this. Certainly, I do find the new gel seems to dry more quickly. The old stuff used to stay a bit tacky for a good 10 mins. Yes, it's a pain to wait longer for the new stuff to dry if you apply it over a smaller area but worth it if it helps. I just use the time to do my teeth, hair and makeup, whilst I'm still in my underwear.
I will be having a blood test on the 26th but definitely feeling a lot better for applying over a small area. I am progesterone intolerant and it took ages, plus a small fortune spent on an expensive private gynae to get a bespoke HRT regime that worked for me. I am not in a position to do that again so have to try and make this new Oestrogel work.
Reb - glad to hear you are feeling better on your new regime. I would think 7 pumps per day probably isn't sustainable in the long term, although you'll be helping to keep Besins in business with that amount!
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Hi
Thanks, yes I'm now applying over a smaller area and leaving to dry, that seems to be helping. I'm testing on 20th, perhaps we can compare notes when we get our results?
I'm also P intolerant - I have histamine intolerance so I have to be super careful with E and P - and it's taken me YEARS to get steady and feel well and I really resent this upset, because I've also spent a fortune on a private gynae and scripts to get here. Cost of living rises are kicking my butt and I can't really afford to be faffing about either.
Saw my sis in law last night, she's post hyst and takes 2 x estradot 100 patches changed a day early, although she has a massive stash of evorel 100s she doesn't need (prescribed during estradot shortage, but she's allergic to the adhesive) - my gynae ages ago prescribed me Evorel that in the end I didn't use, so what with SiL's stash too I do have a plan B up my sleeve if my results are terrible. I also have a three month supply of Sandrena (from my eight day failed attempt recently). So I've got choices. I just don't really want to rock the boat unless I absolutely have to, simply because getting here has been so painstaking, and I have such a bloody awful time with fluctuations and instability that completely derails my life. I freelance for work, no sick pay, so I can't afford time off and underperforming again.
Fingers crossed we're both absorbing these increased doses.
Reb
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Hi
Happy to post results when I get them. I was allergic to the glue in Evorel and was put on Oestrogel, which, once the progesterone issues were sorted, worked really well with the old stuff. My gynae also tried me on Lenzetto, as that is her preferred option but like many women, I found it really weak. I think the response to transdermal medication can vary so much from person to person. I apply mine straight after a bath/shower, so my skin is really clear of any oils and also warm, to maximise absorption. I have read that having well hydrated skin helps too.
I have not tried Estradot ( is there still a supply issue?) or Sandrena. I would have to go through a specialst though, as my GP would not authorise any change to my regime due to taking minimal progesterone ( I take one x 100 mg Utrogestan, vaginally for 14 days). I just can't afford to do that though.
Feeling more achy today but still no headache and my skin is looking better, which had got very dry.
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Hey
Yes my skin is better. GPs are a pain aren't they, 14 x utro vaginally isn't 'minimal' as you can take half the dose vag for the same effect as 200 oral, many women only take it for 12 days (I take it for 10 min, and try and get to 14, but was so sensitive started off on 5, one every three days) but totally understand if the GP won't budge, then you are stuck. No idea what the Nice guidelines and NHS meno guidelines are, but might be worth checking. My sis in law is under Nick Pannay himself, privately, he wrote the meno guidelines, but her Gp has refused to keep prescribing his recommendations (she doesn't have a uterus!) unless she is seen in an NHS meno clinic, and when she says 'but Nick Pannay wrote the NHS meno clinic guidelines' he literally just starts shouting. It's bonkers.
Due to histamine issues I'm worried about glue in patches too as I react to certain surgical dressings, which is why, like you, I was happy on gel. I'm also gutted about needing more consultations and scripts as things are really very tight at the moment and I could do without it. It was bad enough just paying for my HRT.
Fingers crossed on our results, I defo feel and look better so I'm hoping my levels are rising.
Reb
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Hi Reb
It's all bit crazy isn't it?
BMS currently recommend 200mg for 12-14 days for sequential oral use and same for vaginal. They also suggest you may need more if on a high dose of oestrogen. But surely that all depends whether you are absorbing it well, not just the dose? As you say, some specialists are happy with using less, as mine was. However, I saw an NHS gynae recently (for another matter) and he was really not happy with my regime. My GPs are sadly clueless and didn't even understand the difference between topical oestrogen for internal use and Oestrogel!
I am getting my blood test done through Medichecks. I want to stay under the radar with GP but also my local NHS blood labs wrote a snotty note on my results when I first had my levels checked, when I was struggling with symptom control, saying it wasn't necessary! They also refused the request to test my free testosterone & SHBG levels. It really makes me mad that women's health is treated in this way.
Hope you and everyone else in this situation finds a satisfactory solution soon. I will post results when I get them.
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GPs are a pain aren't they, 14 x utro vaginally isn't 'minimal' as you can take half the dose vag for the same effect as 200 oral, many women only take it for 12 days (I take it for 10 min, and try and get to 14, but was so sensitive started off on 5, one every three days) but totally understand if the GP won't budge, then you are stuck.
As chopsuey says - the Guidelines are to take the same amount vaginally as orally if you are intolerant to oral intake and this is the same as the manufacturer ( Besins) recommends (taken from the French product info where the same product can be used either vaginally or orally - and this is the same product as Utrogestan).
"you can take half the dose vag for the same effect as 200 oral," - that's a sweeping statement put across by some gynaes but the fact is there were some very small studies that did indeed demonstrate this, but they were very small ie trials with only a few women, and as far as I recall were only carried out using small to medium doses of oestrogen - so for higher doses of oestrogen more progestogen would be needed, and in any case not all women would be OK even on this depending on how well they absorb both the oestrogen and the progesterone, so always best to follow guidelines unless under medical supervision and monitored with scans etc
Re spreading out the gel. The original product info monograph or a paper on it described how it was important not to spread it too thinly ie over as wide an area as possible as this caused the alcohol to evaporate too quickly before the oestrogen was absorbed so the area to which is applied is a crucial factor in response.
I would suggest anyone who is bothered by dodgy pump mehcanisms and sensitive to slightly inconsistent doses would be better off using Sandrena (though still have the issue of what size area of skin not to mention products on skin, temeperature of skin etc) as it comes in ready portioned sachets ( yay!), or patches - exactly the same size - though I realise these are ot for everyone, but estrogel seems to be one of the most widespread oestrogens being prescribed. I just wouldn't want to waste my time worrying about what was right or wrong or different about it, and try something else that at least from the dosage point of view starts off as being more consistent!!
" My GPs are sadly clueless and didn't even understand the difference between topical oestrogen for internal use and Oestrogel!"
That resonates with how my GP was a few years ago - who thought I might be overdosing on oestrogen (as the cause of some spotting) because I was on systemic HRT ( 50 mcg oestrogen patches!) and vaginal oestrogen and sent me off for blood tests! Needless to say my levels were not too high and only around 200 pmol/l or so maybe a bit more!
Hurdity x
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There has been a couple of estrogel batch recalls. Finally some acceptance there is a problem
https://www.gov.uk/drug-device-alerts/class-3-medicines-recall-besins-healthcare-uk-ltd-oestrogel-pump-pack-750-micrograms-slash-actuation-gel-estradiol-el-24-a-slash-09#:~:text=Besins%20Healthcare%20(UK)%20Ltd%20has,Pack%20750%20micrograms%2Factuation%20Gel.
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Can anyone advise me... I'm currently on 9 pumps of Oestrogel (I know...!). 4 pumps in the AM and 5 at night.
I'm probably going to get switched to Sandrena because this is ridiculous, but...
How many sachets of Sandrena am I going to try to extract from my Newson GP to equate 9 pumps of Oestrogel....?!?
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Hi Joziel
According to the BMS, 1 x 1mg sachet of Sandrena is equivalent to 2 pumps of Oestrogel, which on that basis would make 4.5 sachets of 1 mg Sandrena but that would be a ridiculous amount and way above the guidelines. According to the patient's leaflet, the manufacturer recommends a maximium of 1.5 mg a day.
Have you had your oestradial levels checked on 9 pumps?
I don't think the two products can be compared really, especially in view of all the issues so many people are having with the new shape Oestrogel. Did you ever use the old shape version? Sandrena is clearly a very different product anyway, in terms of it's concentration and the exipients which enable it to be absorbed. People respond very differently to how they absorb drugs and chemicals. I think you will have to leave it to your Newson GP to figure out what dose you should start on, based on your response so far.
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There has been a couple of estrogel batch recalls. Finally some acceptance there is a problem
https://www.gov.uk/drug-device-alerts/class-3-medicines-recall-besins-healthcare-uk-ltd-oestrogel-pump-pack-750-micrograms-slash-actuation-gel-estradiol-el-24-a-slash-09#:~:text=Besins%20Healthcare%20(UK)%20Ltd%20has,Pack%20750%20micrograms%2Factuation%20Gel.
Interesting... I don't know which batches I have reported but I never sent any back, just batch numbers and the weights of each pump. As far as I am concerned though, all the new dispensers are defective - they just cannot be relied upon to deliver a consistent and adequate amount
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I have sent back batches with earlier numbers ie 745** and 747** - will be interesting to see if they add more batch numbers 🤔
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I wonder if my symptoms of poor sleep and flushes, night sweats, have returned very slightly? I think this is since I have the new design pump bottle from Besins. It is definitely a smaller dose. I think I will add an extra pump, to 5 a day and see if that helps.
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Hi Ladies
Well well well, finally some admittance - and it's not batches, it's the entire thing. Just got my blood results back, now on SEVEN pumps and they are down again at 190 pmol. They were higher than this on 5.5 pumps, and have steadily declined since the new bottle. Testing day 12 (will now adjust to test during my own low E during period) but it's doing absolutely sweet fanny adams. Getting vag soreness again.
There is nothing 'slight' about this, it's a defective product. Need to email gynae but I need to get off this pronto, I can't carry on.
Reb
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Can I ask, I keep reading on here about blood tests. Is that something my GP should do as routine to check my oestrogen levels, should I be asking for it or is it only specialist who do this? Is it also for progesterone too?
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Hiya
Blood tests are not 100% if you are still in peri as your own levels will fluctuate, but as my gynae says 'they're the best we have currently' so they're handy ish for getting a sense of what your HRT is doing. I do mine privately through Nuffield, they have an online service where you book and pay online and then go for the draw at your local Nuffield Hospital, £50 for an E test. I've been doing mine on the same day of my cycle (currently monthly due to oestrogel problems) but generally every couple of months or so. Your GP might potentially do some, but they tend to say they aren't that valuable in peri. Post meno they are helpeful as obvs you are no longer producing your own E.
Given my age, my gynae wants me around 600 (I feel well around that level) but so far on a downward decline due to duff gel!
Reb
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Hiya
Blood tests are not 100% if you are still in peri as your own levels will fluctuate, but as my gynae says 'they're the best we have currently' so they're handy ish for getting a sense of what your HRT is doing. I do mine privately through Nuffield, they have an online service where you book and pay online and then go for the draw at your local Nuffield Hospital, £50 for an E test. I've been doing mine on the same day of my cycle (currently monthly due to oestrogel problems) but generally every couple of months or so. Your GP might potentially do some, but they tend to say they aren't that valuable in peri. Post meno they are helpeful as obvs you are no longer producing your own E.
Given my age, my gynae wants me around 600 (I feel well around that level) but so far on a downward decline due to duff gel!
Reb
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Do you have to be signed up with a doctor at Nuffield to use their testing service?
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UPDATE
Hi,
I switched from useless new oestrogel to Sandrena a few months ago. Although Sandrena has been wonderful compared to new Oestrogel, I never felt as good as I did on 3 pumps of old Oestrogel plus testosterone. I've been tweeking amounts and have been on 2g of Sandrena per day (sometimes a little bit more)
My blood results are: 587 pmol/L
That must mean I'm absorbing well (I think)
Unfortunately my testosterone results are high... I'll start a new thread for that one!
Banjo
Sorry, do you happen to know what your results were on oestrogel? I'm just wondering what sort of difference in absorption you are now getting? Just trying to decide what to do, patch or sandrena (I have both in my end of the world stash under the bed!).
Cheers
Reb
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Penguin
No, although they do charge a £25 self referral fee (I think this is for their GP to look at results if lab flags them as out of range) which lasts for 6 months. YOu book online and pay for the test, then they call you to take the £25 by debit over the phone. https://www.nuffieldhealth.com/pathology-direct
Hope that helps,
Reb
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Another option is Medichecks, which I will be using this time. They send you out a kit and you select where you will have your blood sample taken. An oestradiol test is currently £49 plus an extra £35.00 for the sample to be taken, as the finger**** tests are not reliable if you use gel.
They also do other hormone tests, including testosterone. They often have discounts, I got 20% off mine. I have used them before for thyroid hormones and cholesterol checks and found them pretty good. You get a doctors report included.
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Penguin
No, although they do charge a £25 self referral fee (I think this is for their GP to look at results if lab flags them as out of range) which lasts for 6 months. YOu book online and pay for the test, then they call you to take the £25 by debit over the phone. https://www.nuffieldhealth.com/pathology-direct
Hope that helps,
Reb
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Thanks we have a Nuffield nearby where I have been to before, so will give it a try. What is best day to check to see if you are absorbing hrt in a sequi regime, please?
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UPDATE
Hi,
I switched from useless new oestrogel to Sandrena a few months ago. Although Sandrena has been wonderful compared to new Oestrogel, I never felt as good as I did on 3 pumps of old Oestrogel plus testosterone. I've been tweeking amounts and have been on 2g of Sandrena per day (sometimes a little bit more)
My blood results are: 587 pmol/L
That must mean I'm absorbing well (I think)
Unfortunately my testosterone results are high... I'll start a new thread for that one!
Banjo
Sorry, do you happen to know what your results were on oestrogel? I'm just wondering what sort of difference in absorption you are now getting? Just trying to decide what to do, patch or sandrena (I have both in my end of the world stash under the bed!).
Cheers
Reb
Hi Reb,
Sorry, I never had oestrogen levels measured before, I only ever went on symptoms.
I can only guess, but 6 pumps of new oestrogel only just kept symptoms at bay. I didn't ever feel good.
I am now finally settled on 2mg of Sandrena per day, 1 in morning, one at around 5/6 pm.
I took on board the tip of spreading over a smaller area and this has helped.
It has taken a while for me to settle on my new regime (approx 4/5 months) and I've made a few mistakes along the way (increasing my testosterone). However, even from day 1 it's been a massive improvement from new oestrogel.
It might be worth giving it another go, but try a lower dose and split it. (I never needed to split doses with oestrogel - but for some reason I need to with Sandrena).
Good luck and keep up updated!
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[/quote]
Thanks we have a Nuffield nearby where I have been to before, so will give it a try. What is best day to check to see if you are absorbing hrt in a sequi regime, please?
[/quote]
During or around your period as this is when your own E is lowest, so will give you most reliable indicator of what the HRT is giving you. I keep a daily spreadsheet on a 28 day calendar (note symptoms doses etc) so I know I''m always booking on the right day of my cycle - I had been testing day 12 (peak my own E day) but just about to bump this to during period. Key thing if you want to do multiple tests over time, do them on the same day of your cycle - so say you book day 5, then next time also test on day 5. My gynae tells me not to apply gel on the morning of the test (and defo not on your blood draw arm) but opinions are split on this, again key is to do the same thing each test, so you are comparing like with like.
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Banjo
Thanks love, thought you might say that! OK I'm gonna sleep on it and see what the gynae says when she replies, but will give whatever a whirl over the weekend as this gives me a few days to wobble, then I've only got to limp to Easter and can wobble some more!
I can guarantee the bright spark who decided to maximise profit margins on oestrogel by doing whatever it is they've done was a bloody man!
Reb
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If you have had problems with the new bottles, was it the batch codes that they have reported as faulty? Mine was a different batch. I haven't heard anything back from besin after sending a bottle back via my pharmacy.
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Thanks we have a Nuffield nearby where I have been to before, so will give it a try. What is best day to check to see if you are absorbing hrt in a sequi regime, please?
[/quote]
During or around your period as this is when your own E is lowest, so will give you most reliable indicator of what the HRT is giving you. I keep a daily spreadsheet on a 28 day calendar (note symptoms doses etc) so I know I''m always booking on the right day of my cycle - I had been testing day 12 (peak my own E day) but just about to bump this to during period. Key thing if you want to do multiple tests over time, do them on the same day of your cycle - so say you book day 5, then next time also test on day 5. My gynae tells me not to apply gel on the morning of the test (and defo not on your blood draw arm) but opinions are split on this, again key is to do the same thing each test, so you are comparing like with like.
x
[/quote]
Thanks so much!
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If you have had problems with the new bottles, was it the batch codes that they have reported as faulty? Mine was a different batch. I haven't heard anything back from besin after sending a bottle back via my pharmacy.
Hiya
I have so many in a box under my bed (I had three repeats in one go) that I'm yet to check all the batch numbers, but the ones I've collected to send back already are not the batches they are saying are faulty, and I've thrown many more away, before I joined the dots and realised something was up. This confirms my suspicion that it's the product and not just the bottle. I sent my gynae a list of blood results from last May (when I was on the old stuff) and then through the winter, testing monthly from the new cyclinder, and my numbers literally go off a ski jump, she couldn't believe how terrible it is. She says if women are moaning, they've reformulated the product in her experience. I am going to send these bottles back, but I've already emailed them to say that focusing on certain bottles is a red herring, because it's all of it.
Gynae has prescribed estradot, should be here by DPD tomorrow. And if that fails, another go at Sandrena, but I felt so jittery on that I'm a bit loathe to go through that again!
Reb
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I'm wondering ladies, can you confirm if, as my symptoms are coming back with a vengeance, the amount I'm going to increase my oestrogel by is likely to be right please?
I'm on 4 pumps per day and so because the dose delivered by the new bottles is less than it should be I was going to add an extra pump a day to 5.
I can always tell when my dose isn't right because the first symptom is disturbed sleep and that's been about 3 weeks now plus I'm starting to get very hot again!
Thank you in advance.
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I think most of us on here are finding that it is not just the dosing errors but the actual gel itself is less potent or not being absorbed in the same way. Some people on here are taking very high doses and still getting low blood levels and lots of symptoms.
The new pumps are very erratic and it is impossible to say how much extra you would need because it varies each time how much you get. The only way to get an accurate dose is to weigh each one on digital jewellery scales, which you can get on Amazon for around £10-£15. But I think you will find that even then, you will still have symptoms, unfortunately.
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Hi all
Yes to concur, I've been on 7 pumps and getting blood results of 190 pmol which are drastically down on where they were, and still going down with every dose increase. My sleep is disturbed, I can see skin changes, and I'm getting vaginal soreness. No harm in increasing, but most of us, having tried that, are getting off oestrogel.
On that theme, the insert to estradot say if you are on sequi - which I am - start of day 1 of cycle. Given that's a week and half away, I thought I'd try sandrena again in the meantime. I just feel unbelievably jittery but also had a whopping hot flush yesterday evening (I've never had a hot flush as I was on HRT before those symptoms started) so this doesn't bode well. I took 1.5mg this morning with the idea of taking 1mg this evening, but I can't face it, I'll never sleep. They day's been a right off, feel like I'm on speed, it's a really harsh chemically feeling, particularly in and around my eyes.
I'm so upset about oestrogel, I'd got my life back and now have to go through this crap all over again!
Reb
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That's really disappointing Reb. I think many of us on here are kind of banking on Sandrena to be our salvation but it seems some people, such as yourself respond really badly to it. Hope you have better results with the Estradot. Just worry I will be allergic to the glue, like I was with Evorel
I had a weird reaction to Oestrogel this morning. I felt a bit jittery an hour or so after applying and then really dizzy to the point I had to sit down for a while. I used to get very slight jittery episodes on the old stuff but it was very transient, lasting about 15 mins.
Had my bloods taken today, so will update when I get them.
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Thanks
I suspect I really absorb this, as it starts within seconds of applying it. I also suspect I need way less than the 'conversion' from my good dose of 4.5 pumps of old oestrogel, as Banjo has said, but given my workload the thought of plunging my levels further is too frightening (I get TERRIBLE brain fog and have a very academic job) so I'm probably not being very logical and should start on a way lower dose, I just can't make myself do it! We will see.
On the upside, it's triggered a massive bleed, so think I'm OK to start estradot, just going to wait for these jitters to pass, so I can track any reaction. My sis in law was also allergic to evorel but not to estradot (me being me I have oestrogel, sandrena, estradot, and evorel in a box under my bed, after the NHS ruining my life by utterly bodging my life threatening thyroid disease, I like to be in control of my hormone options! lol)
Yes do post your results, that will be very interesting to see. I see Louise Newsom has posted about 'nothing to worry about, two faulty batches' - we know it's more than that.
Reb
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Thank you ladies. I'm so sorry to hear you're all suffering too. It really annoys me when a tried and tested product gets changed.
So it sounds as though I'm going to have to go back to my GP with this one and your comments make it clear that I'm likely not just lacking in 1 pump but probably much more.
Do you have any idea what I should be asking my GP for? The whole practice is pretty useless but I've recently had success by telling the GP how much estradiol I need. I'm postmeno and taking Utrogestone x2 at night. I've tried patches in the past and they were hopeless. Initially I was prescribed a tablet which I cannot remember what it was. But although it worked there was apparently a shortage and I couldn't get it again. Are Sandrena and Estradot my options?
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Hiya
Bless you, yes it's infuriating. Well of course your first option is just to try more gel, I'd still do one pump increments and wait and see how you go, then do another, but perhaps getting blessing from doc to do that first, and so you have the script with enough wriggle room to do it - you might get hamstrung by NICE guidelines which is max four pumps.
Most women in this predicament have done wonderfully on Sandrena and many prefer it. The 'conversion' the NHS use isn't by oestrogen dose though, just 'roughly equivalent' - so they say x pumps of oestrogel is roughly equivalent to y of sandrena. Again getting enough so you can fiddle yourself to find your sweet spot.
Estradot comes in 25, 50, 75 and 100 - equiv to 1, 2, 3 and 4 pumps, you can however cut the patch if you need to, or ask your GP to prescribe you several size patches (so say if you are on 100, ask for 50s and 25s so you can adjust the dose maybe? That's what my gynae did when she trial prescribed me evorel, told me to start on 75, moving up to 100).
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Thanks
I suspect I really absorb this, as it starts within seconds of applying it. I also suspect I need way less than the 'conversion' from my good dose of 4.5 pumps of old oestrogel, as Banjo has said, but given my workload the thought of plunging my levels further is too frightening (I get TERRIBLE brain fog and have a very academic job) so I'm probably not being very logical and should start on a way lower dose, I just can't make myself do it! We will see.
On the upside, it's triggered a massive bleed, so think I'm OK to start estradot, just going to wait for these jitters to pass, so I can track any reaction. My sis in law was also allergic to evorel but not to estradot (me being me I have oestrogel, sandrena, estradot, and evorel in a box under my bed, after the NHS ruining my life by utterly bodging my life threatening thyroid disease, I like to be in control of my hormone options! lol)
Yes do post your results, that will be very interesting to see. I see Louise Newsom has posted about 'nothing to worry about, two faulty batches' - we know it's more than that.
Reb
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It does sound like you are absorbing too much and too rapidly. I believe you can get flushes and menopausal symptoms from too much oestrogen. So hard to know what to do for the best, as patches will work in a gradual release way, very different from gel. I was only ever on 25mg patch, so don't know in principle whether they would work for me, as that was way too low a dose and the effects of the Utro just made me feel worse than not being on HRT. Brain fog is just the most debilitating thing isn't it, especially when you have a demanding job?
If the Estradot doesn't work for you, perhaps you could try a combination of maybe a patch to give you a baseline level and a top up of a lower amount of Sandrena. Good that you've got a good stash in order to experiment a bit but so unfair that we all have to mess around like this, putting our lives on hold, trying to work out what to do for the best.
Disappointing reaction from Louise Newson ( not seen it myself) You would think from all her patients and followers, she would be more aware of the issues and know it's not just a batch issue
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Thank you, Reb. I didn't realise Estradoy were patches - I had another type of patch before and aside from them continually falling off, I got a raised itchy rash in the shape of the patch every time!
I've been a bit slap dash with dosage this week and certainly using more than usual and last night I had a really good night's sleep. Whether it is that or the fact I've been using estradiol every day since last week, it could be the urge to pee isn't quite as urgent and not waking me. I'm grateful for your comments, I'll monitor things and see how it goes.
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Well, I've just got my blood test results. A bit of a surprise I have to say.
So, previously when I was on 4 pumps of old Oestrogel, my oestradiol levels were 466 pmol/L. This was, however, fairly early on in my HRT, when I was trying to get my levels up from unrecordable, so I don't know if they subsequently went higher.
This time, (different lab but taken at similar time of day and I did have my dose of Oestrogel 4 hours earlier, as before) on 4 pumps of the new stuff, my level is 602 pmol/L. My total testosterone is somewhat raised though at 1.85 nmol/L. (My FAI and SHBG are in normal range). I'm sure I read somewhere that testosterone can be converted to oestradiol but can't find the reference now. If so, I wonder whether the Androfeme has pushed up my oestradiol.
Symptom wise, since spreading the gel over the smaller area, I don't feel too bad currently. Headache and joint aches have gone and I've got plenty of energy. The main difference compared to taking the old stuff is the return of the sludgy brain function/memory issues and my skin is still drier than it was. Maybe these will improve with time.
So, all in all, I'm a bit puzzled. I am 4 years post meno, so the E levels are all due to Oestrogel (possibly aided by testosterone). I am clearly taking enough and it does seem to be working for me now I've changed technique. My next step will to be to get a scan to ensure my endometrium lining isn't building up too much, as my current bleed has been going on for 10 days and I do take a low dose of Utro vaginally.
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Testosterone can definitely convert to oestrogen via aromatisation. And for some this occurs at a higher rate than others, it’s very individual.
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Hi Chopsuey
Wow that's great, so glad you are feeling better. I take T but it doesn't seem to have had any bearing on my E levels although I'm debating switching to blood draw in the afternoon and applying gel in the morning, as I do wonder how much is in my system after nearly 24 since last application. Like you I'm also spreading over a smaller area. I do in fact feel better for the increased dose, I don't look great, and feeling tired, but no meno symptoms like sweats, aches, vaginal soreness etc.
I've not tested my T for a while and I think my SHBG is high (it always used to be as I'm TSH suppressed for thyroid cancer, which pushes up SHBG) - keep meaning to ask my gynae about this, as wondering if this has some bearing on how I utilise HRT.
I'll book some tests.
My patch experiment is going to have to wait a cycle as my sandrena experiment triggered a massive early bleed, and given I'd just not long had another early massive bleed from increasing oestrogel dose, I think I've dipped my iron levels (also have long term iron deficiency issues which are a total pain) so Im jittery and not myself, so don't think now is the moment to add another variable into the mix (or to trigger yet another bleed and lose yet more iron) as it'll be hard to track which symptoms belong where.
I'm now applying one pump per small area - one forearm, one upper arm, left haunch, right haunch, spreading not rubbing and leaving to dry etc so will see how that goes. Pump sizes are defo erratic though, by sight and by the scales. At the rate I'm now using it I'm due to order a repeat, so be interesting to see if the new batch is any different to the current stuff Im slapping on in alarming quantities.
What a total faff this all is! Really very fed up indeed!
Reb
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Hi Reb
Very difficult for you with so many variables going on. I have read that SHBG also affects levels of available oestradiol, so if your levels are high, it could be another factor.
I am still quite stunned by my results and querying how valid they are, especially as there was a post on another thread, citing a study about transdermal gel application and contaminated venous samples affecting blood levels of oestradiol. I think I may need to retest and avoid applying to my arms and use a plastic glove to apply it on the day of the draw. I have to do the test in the morning in order to get it off in the post though and like you, think 24 hrs since last dose will also distort the results. I may have to switch to an evenng application for a few days. Don't know if there is any guidance on this. Newson Health just says apply it as normal but avoid the arms.
I'm sure there are lots of people on here who would be delighted to have levels of E over 600 but I think I'd like to run a bit lower with my P regime and being post meno, provided my symptoms are well controlled.
I hope you manage to find some answers with all your issues. To think I once assumed HRT would be straightforward!!
x
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Wow this thread is enlightening! So sorry to all of you having such a hard time with this …
I’m on my third bottle of Oestrodose (covered in paper Oestrogel labels!) after much trialling of site of application, thickness of application and dose I am feeling good with 1 pump on my thigh. I started off on 2, but after symptoms returning after 6 weeks and thanks to this super helpful forum that taught me too high and too low oestrogen levels can cause the same symptoms (I mean come on as if this isn’t hard enough to get your head round!) I reduced to 1 pump and that’s working well right now.
Today I collected my new prescription which is 3 bottles of Oestrogel- totally different bottle and packaging.
Feeling a little apprehensive to start but thanks to all this info I can go into it aware and monitor closely how I’m feeling. Thank you all for sharing your experiences.
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Hi boomerang
This forum is indeed very helpful and a wealth of knowledge and experience. So glad I found it.
Don't know how much of this very long thread you have read through but I suspect Oestrodose and the new shape Oestrogel are the same product, just in different bottles. If you have now been given the new white cap cylindrical pumps, just be mindful that you will probably get less and varying amounts from these, as they are very unreliable, particularly as you get towards the end of the bottle.
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Hi Chopsuey
Thank you! That’s good to know that hopefully I’ve got the same formulation… I have some digital scales so I shall keep an eye on the weight of the gel coming out like you suggested especially nearing the end of the bottle.
Nothings ever straightforward is it!
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Another one here. Something stopped working and then I found this thread and thought Bingo! I asked to change to Sandrena and today is my first day. Was on 2-3 pumps of oestrogel and will start with 1.5mg of Sandrena and see how I get on.
I have also started taking a DIM supplement at the same time. Since starting oestrogen I have put on puffy weight, about 6kg, that I cannot shift. I tried cutting carbs/keto and removing all sugars and exercising much more but not even a lb dropped since the new year. Anyhow, that is for a different thread but it is wonderful to see that many have found Sandrena to be consistent and in some cases better. Fingers crossed.
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Hi Blythe,
We're all individuals but I'll tell you what worked for me in terms of Sandrena.
I was on 3 pumps of old Oestrogel, 6 pumps of new oestrogel...
I am now settled on 2mg of Sandrena split into 2 doses. So it's possible 1.5mg might be too much in one hit? Just see how you go.
In terms of weight loss, testosterone really helped. More energy and more strength (as well as lots of other benefits) don't know if its something you're interested in but I thought it was worth a mention.
Good luck x
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… definitely all individual 👍
I was on 4 pumps of the old Oestrogel which worked fine and have now transitioned to 2x 1mg Sandrena per day - I take them both at the same time in the morning (one on each thigh), seems to be ok for me.
(I have noticed 3 small blotches appear in a row on my right thigh when rubbing it in for a few seconds, heard this possibly meant it absorbs it better! I also appreciate advice earlier in this thread about using tips of fingers to rub in and not whole hand - has improved for me)
As an update on this thread in general - Besins got in contact after receiving the “faulty” bottles back via the pharmacy and had now asked permission to contact my GP as part of their ongoing investigations - wonder what happens then…
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Hi Blythe,
We're all individuals but I'll tell you what worked for me in terms of Sandrena.
I was on 3 pumps of old Oestrogel, 6 pumps of new oestrogel...
I am now settled on 2mg of Sandrena split into 2 doses. So it's possible 1.5mg might be too much in one hit? Just see how you go.
In terms of weight loss, testosterone really helped. More energy and more strength (as well as lots of other benefits) don't know if its something you're interested in but I thought it was worth a mention.
Good luck x
I am keeping everything crossed I will shortly have a testosterone prescription. I was referred to NHS menopause clinic and the specialist prescribed it but my authority needs bloody tests in order to ok that prescription. My bloods showed testosterone levels within normal range but I know it is an issue. I have a lack of interest in most things and no get up and go and I really need to have that back. Really hoping they will still prescribe despite bloody results but they have such a backlog so it could be weeks.
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I'm here suffering the same as you all, at least we're not alone but I wouldn't wish all these Oestrogel problems on my worst enemy, If I had one...hehe!
I've had 3 bouts of plummeting estrogen after new round bottles. I blamed one on myself, because of using fake tan thought I wasn't absorbing...not so sure it was that now.
My blinking pharmacy keeps giving me the round bottles, they just keep on coming. Are we saying they are useless? Or half as good so use pretty much double?
Are any big wigs on to this with Basins or whatever the big cheese company is calling itself? They should rename themselves as NOestrogel(left so we're giving you hair gel instead in some old faulty doggy bottles, and hoping you don't notice your life has turned into utter shite for the past 2 years, that's alright ain't it!!)
I'm angry, I think it's a side effect of too much hair gel...haha!
TD
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And another very dissatisfied oestrogel user!!!! Have been using and very settled for yonks on Oestrogel. Didn’t connect the dots with the new shaped canisters until a couple of weeks ago after I was on my 2nd new bottle …. Palpitations and anxiety back, poor sleep, acid reflux (probably because of the anxiety), dry eyes, skin etc etc….. changed to Sandrena a week ago and beginning to settle. Filled out yellow card but I’m surprised that only two batches have been recalled by Besins, probably more will be but expect they don’t want a riot on their hands ….. shameful, their profits were good last year, but I reckon greed is at the forefront of this …. hope everyone who is experiencing problems too is getting sorted xx
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Morning ladies
Just catching up on this thread! Sorry but also glad more ladies have found their way here and have worked out something is amiss. Besins have contacted me again wanting to contact my doctor, which I'm about to approve them doing, along with sending them a slew of blood test results.
Meanwhile I've been piling in the haem iron I import from America (this being meno lark isn't cheap!) so think my iron is back where it needs to be. Cycle seems to have settled back to 28 days (after upping my dose from 5 pumps to 7 pumps and ill fated second attempt at Sandrena) - haven't blood tested again, as have had no idea what day of my cycle I've been on for a while after to whopping unscheduled bleeds (one trying sandrena, and one upping oestrogel dose) although I've been feeling odd for weeks now, and really really feeling the utrogestan, which I'm guessing is my E vs P ratio being out of whack.
Anyway, today is day 1 so as instructed I've snipped the corner off my 100 estradot to start on 75, changing every 72 hours, with a view to settling on 100 eventually. I feel a bit jittery, but then I often feel jittery around my bleed as I have histamine intolerance, and I'm guessing I've now got some absorbable E on board, we will see. Just praying I don't get the sandrena like jitters!
I felt so well on oestrogel, I'm really bloody angry about all this, I can't afford all this instability (I know I'm not alone here) - what do they imagine mid life women do all day, knit? Arrange flowers? 80% of the most powerful women in the world are aged over 50, can you imagine men in the same situation putting up with this nonsense??? I can't afford to be off my game, same as the rest of us, but it is what it is so I'm going to have to find my way through it.
Will keep you posted, and now I know today is day 1, will book a test.
Reb
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Hello all
Update number 2, well I got the Sandrena like jitters on Estradot, really chemically revved up feeling, so took patch off and it subsided within an hour or so, so I'm now on day 3 of 75 Evorel and so far so normal! My sleep is LOADS better according to my fitbit and I look so much better, my skin is all glowing and bouncy already, so it's defo doing something. Feel a bit tired and scatterd, which I assume is just shift in hormones, and not enjoying the nice dark fluff that's attached itself to the edges of the stupidly big patch on my behind, but in the grand scheme, not complaining!
Too soon to say, but so far so hopeful, blood tests booked for a couple of weeks hence (and now I know my day 1 I'll start testing during bleed moving forwards).
Reb
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Getting stuff somewhere optimal seems bloody hit and miss sometimes.
I'm now on 10 pumps TEN PUMPS of this Oestrogel. 5 pumps AM and 5 pumps PM. I am managing to get 4 pumps on a thigh, rotating around it - and then 1 pump on a butt cheek. I don't really want to put it on my arms as I don't want to contaminate veins or boobs.
I am doing better than I've done in ages, well, since starting HRT and all this began really. I still have the occasional bad night here and there but overall I am getting much better sleep. I might need to go higher and not sure what happens then ;D ;D ;D I go through a bottle of gel in under a week.....
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Hey Joziel,
So glad you finally feel some stability and are doing better. If it takes 10 then it takes 10, we are all unique.
The top outer arms and shoulders are ok for putting gel on, don't see any issues and I absorbed best there.
The bottle instructions mentions putting it there and down to the wrist if needed.
I have switched to butt as I want to put fake tan on my arms this summer,
if in fact, the big shiny thing in the sky makes an appearance this year...at all, still waiting!
I will say my switch up from 6 to 7 pumps has only been a week but I am feeling the benefits already. Better sleep, heaches have left so far....and less of a cotton mouth dry mouth feeling.
TD
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I’m struggling too with the new Oestrogel.Old bottle was on 4 and half pumps.Now 6 pumps and still dry eyes and low moods.I went to my GP and apparently a lot of women have complained about the new bottles!Problem is I don’t absorb patches,in fact I don’t absorb very well below the waist.Its always the outer arms.Im so upset its changed.I was doing so well on the old bottles
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Hello all
Update number 2, well I got the Sandrena like jitters on Estradot, really chemically revved up feeling, so took patch off and it subsided within an hour or so, so I'm now on day 3 of 75 Evorel and so far so normal! My sleep is LOADS better according to my fitbit and I look so much better, my skin is all glowing and bouncy already, so it's defo doing something. Feel a bit tired and scatterd, which I assume is just shift in hormones, and not enjoying the nice dark fluff that's attached itself to the edges of the stupidly big patch on my behind, but in the grand scheme, not complaining!
Too soon to say, but so far so hopeful, blood tests booked for a couple of weeks hence (and now I know my day 1 I'll start testing during bleed moving forwards).
Reb
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Hi Reb,
I know it's early days, but I am so glad to hear you're having some success with Evorel. I feel so bad that I recommended Sandrena. All my friends who ditched Oestrogel are very happy on Sandrena apart from one (who got terrible migraines on it) and she is very happy with Evorel. Please let us know how you get on. And I'm guessing if I ever get fed up with sticky Sandrena, I might well suit Estrodot if it gives similar results.
Take care xx
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I just went to my Pharmacy armed with both style bottles and asked if they could Please just provide the old-style bottle.
He said he would try which tbh was more than I had expected.
My prescription was already waiting for me which was super fast as it only just got signed off by GP and I was trying
to get this request in before they filled the script. Anyhow, lucky me bcz I got 4 old-style bottles by chance this time.
He also then handed me a flyer printed by Basins with photos of the 2 different bottles on it and it said something to the tune of.....
Hey nothing to see here, both bottles are the same contents so don't worry your little heads, just use it dosing as before and as though it works the same.
They really do think we are the idiots, it's not them it's us!
TD
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Thought I would just add a comment in case it helps anyone thinking of switching to Sandrena. My advice is slow and steady wins the race. I switched from four pumps of oestrogel ( old style) about a month ago. I started with 1mg of Sandrena then went to 1.5 and then seem settled on two. I take 1.5 in the morning and 0.5mg in the evening. It was a bit bumpy to start, a few hot sweats in the night, feeling a bit jittery etc but I think whenever you swap it's to be expected while the body gets used to it. Anyway fingers crossed it's going to work for me. x
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I just went to my Pharmacy armed with both style bottles and asked if they could Please just provide the old-style bottle.
He said he would try which tbh was more than I had expected.
My prescription was already waiting for me which was super fast as it only just got signed off by GP and I was trying
to get this request in before they filled the script. Anyhow, lucky me bcz I got 4 old-style bottles by chance this time.
He also then handed me a flyer printed by Basins with photos of the 2 different bottles on it and it said something to the tune of.....
Hey nothing to see here, both bottles are the same contents so don't worry your little heads, just use it dosing as before and as though it works the same.
They really do think we are the idiots, it's not them it's us!
TD
Hi TD
I will be very interested to hear if you find these new old-style bottles better. It's not Oestrodose is it, with Oestrogel labels put on over the top? I wonder if they have come from the same factory as the cylindrical ones and they are still using the new formula of gel but in the previous style of bottles. They might dispense the gel correctly but most of us on here think the gel itself is different. It would be wonderful if the old stuff was still being produced but I am not hopeful.
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Hia Chopsuey, love the handle, yours and Crispychick make me smile.
Yea it is the old Oestrogdose with Oestrogel label crudely stuck on top.
I am an old timer on here and aware that there is a difference between the above-mentioned.
I myself did have an issue very early on with the Oestrodose being less good(or rubbish)let us say.
You'll probably see me posts either on this thread about it from years ago.
I have been using half the cylindrical bottle and half Oestrodose kind for some time at 6 pumps and wasn't doing well on it.
I upped 1 pump a week ago and it seems to be cleaning up the mess of reoccurring symptoms I have found myself in. Only been a week mind, but
it's looking up atm.
TD
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It was oestrodose that made me swap to Sandrena. And yes the label was covered over!
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Never tried Oestrodose myself but have read that most people ( on here at least) don't find it much cop.
TD - just to clarify, did you request the old shape bottles in the hope that you'd get the old stuff or did you realise that it would be Oestrodose but just find the dispenser better? Do you think Oestrodose and the new Oestrogel are the same product, just in different bottles?
Thanks
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Never tried Oestrodose myself but have read that most people ( on here at least) don't find it much cop.
TD - just to clarify, did you request the old shape bottles in the hope that you'd get the old stuff or did you realise that it would be Oestrodose but just find the dispenser better? Do you think Oestrodose and the new Oestrogel are the same product, just in different bottles?
Thanks
Lol, this is getting a little confusing.
I can't even remember the last time I had a bottle of the original Oestrogel. I've been given either the round bottle or the Ostrodose with the slapped-on Oestrogel label. Does the OG Oestrogel still exist? I asked for the latter bcz it seems the best of the available options. It dispenses more and doesn't have the stupid stopper. For those reasons, it seems to work better maybe.... possibly!? lol!
TD
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I think stocks of the old stuff disappeared last summer, in my area anyway and I reckon probably for good. I used my last bottle of the old stuff over Christmas ( I'd been saving it!)
It would certainly help to have the better dispensers, although I think the two gels are probably the same now, just made in different factories and countries. It all seemed to change when Besins took over another hormone gel producing factory in Belgium, where I believe Oestrogel used to be made (presumably under licence) in order to meet increased demand.
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Oh my gawd peoples....
I just saw on Instagram that Besins have accepted that there are random issues with the cylindrical pumps not dispensing the same amount of gel as compared to the old style pumps with the sloping sides up to the top. A Besins rep told this doctor on Insta that they are going to switch back to the old pumps next year due to this.... I can't find which meno doctor it was now, who did this Live...
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Wow! Progess of sorts, although we all know it''s not just the pumps that have changed. If they are accepting that the pumps are not reliable though, surely they have a duty of care to switch long before next year, whatever the cost to themselves. This is a medicine we are talking about, not hair gel!
Joziel - did you ever discuss switching to Sandrena with your specialist? If must be quite a faff applying 10 pumps a day but glad to hear that it seems to be finally helping. My GP would never sanction going over 4 per day but I know switching to another product is not always a straightforward option either.
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Luckily my GP has accepted my Newson doctor's letter saying I need 10 pumps because I don't want to have to pay for that ;D
I thought about Sandrena and it's still an option for the future but since changing products can often mean going back to the drawing board in terms of symptoms and getting the dosage right, I just don't want to do that right now given the severity of my night time symptoms.
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Luckily my GP has accepted my Newson doctor's letter saying I need 10 pumps because I don't want to have to pay for that ;D
I thought about Sandrena and it's still an option for the future but since changing products can often mean going back to the drawing board in terms of symptoms and getting the dosage right, I just don't want to do that right now given the severity of my night time symptoms.
I'm on the same page as you, not on 10 pumps but not wanting to switch. Reading other ppls experiences of being all at sea and some doing ok on other gel or patch after time and tweakments doesn't seem a whole lot different to what we are experiencing. As of 10 days ago I went up from 6 to 7 and I seems to be stabilising.
I mean it's not like there is no active estradiol in Oestrodose, it's weaker for sure by ?/however many percent.
If we knew how much weaker it was we could adjust exactly and hit the sweet spot instead of it being Russian roulette.
TD
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I wonder if we ever will get to the bottom of all this? Besins just insist 'nothing has changed' and from what I've read, it seems like Oestrodose was always weaker than what we used to get in the UK. If so, I wonder how women in France got on with it, or did they never feel that great? I assume over there it is only licenced at 4 pumps as well. If lots of women are now needing to use a lot more to get good symptom control, they will have to change the licenced maximum doses, as I would think many GPs would not be happy to prescribe at much higher levels, even with a specialist's letter. It would cost them too much for a start!
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Hi ladies
In haste, I've been on Evorel 75 for about three weeks and my blood results are back, on the way up again at 319 pmol.
I'm going to increase to 100 and test again, but hoping that'll put me in the right ball park. I feel so much better and chirpier, people are telling me I look and sound 'like me' again! The initial slightly revved, ADHD, wired but tired feeling has passed, I feel steady and solid and fine! I'm still using utrogestan for the P bit of my sequence and just started that and not feeling it anything like as much as I was at the end of gel, which I assume means my ratio of E to P is also better. Apparently some women find sandrena and estradot rev them up, but find Evorel gentler, which is my experience too, just in case that's helpful to anyone.
To recap, on Oestrogel:
4.5 pumps, day 12, May 2023, E = 1590 (old bottle)
4.5 pumps, day 12 Nov 2023 E = 321 (new cylinder bottle)
5.5 pumps day 12, Jan 2024 E = 271
5.5 pumps day 12, Feb 2024 E = 205
7 pumps, Day 12, March 2024 E = 190
I don't believe this is just a faulty dispenser, it's the product, they must have done something to the gel for me to go off a ski jump like that!
Anyway, I'll test again next month and report back, but I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER, hurrah, at last!
Reb
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Sounds promising Reb. Let's hope things continue in that general direction with the increased dose. Will be interested to hear how things go with your second test.
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Hi Reb,
Really glad things are working out for you finally.
Interesting what you say about Sandrena and Estrodot being similar. A friend of mine also said something similar. She is now really settled on Evorel.
Keep us posted x
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I am going down the route of bathing in gel. Partly because my Newson GP prescribed me 10 pumps and I got my NHS GP to approve that. If I now want to switch product I have to pay for another Newson appointment and then convince NHS GP to change prescription. Plus who knows if that will work any better or require further tinkering. Maybe I should just pay for it all myself until I get the product and amount sorted....expensive. But for now I'm stuck essentially bathing in gel...
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I am going down the route of bathing in gel. Partly because my Newson GP prescribed me 10 pumps and I got my NHS GP to approve that. If I now want to switch product I have to pay for another Newson appointment and then convince NHS GP to change prescription. Plus who knows if that will work any better or require further tinkering. Maybe I should just pay for it all myself until I get the product and amount sorted....expensive. But for now I'm stuck essentially bathing in gel...
Are you seeing any improvements?
TD
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I saw a big improvement when I got to 8 pumps and a slightly smaller improvement at 9 pumps. Not sure 10 pumps has done anything. I'd like to check my bloods again to see where those are at and whether I'm absorbing much more. That might help me decide about switching products too. But I want to do a venous sample so I'm waiting till my next thyroid bloods are done and will get them both done at the same time...
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I saw a big improvement when I got to 8 pumps and a slightly smaller improvement at 9 pumps. Not sure 10 pumps has done anything. I'd like to check my bloods again to see where those are at and whether I'm absorbing much more. That might help me decide about switching products too. But I want to do a venous sample so I'm waiting till my next thyroid bloods are done and will get them both done at the same time...
That's really good then, glad you have seen some progress, maybe you won't need to switch after all.
TD
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Hiya
Day 3 of 100 Evorel, doing OK! Makes me realise how very much in the doldrums I've been for months, it's like a creeping cheerfulness coming back and a bit of va va voom!
Re gel, I dunno whether this will help. My sis in law had a total hysterectomy in her early 40s (lots of kids, botched caesarians and adhesions) - had a torrid time. After total mismanagement by NHS of HRT post surgery, she went to see Nick Pannay. At first he was totally up for just upping the gel til she felt better as she was a poor absorber (this is before they changed it, obviously) - she got to 8 pumps but her blood levels were still not up in the range and she was still hugely symptomatic. He said, at a certain point with gel, you get to a dose where your body just can't absorb any more, your cell receptors are just saturated. He switched her to estradot 100, and she's finally settled on 2 x 100 estradot changed a day early and is doing great.
I don't know enough science, but does seem to make sense with gel spread over a massive area, that it just gets to a point where you can't uptake any more? I also notice that the BMS have rebuked Newsom (indirectly) with this statement - not saying it applies to our situation, but interesting that more isn't always better https://thebms.org.uk/2023/09/tachyphylaxis-with-hrt/
I shared your fears about instability, but all told it's been about a month of faffing, I feel significantly better, not ideal but the contrast in how I feel now, I realise it's been a slow slide with oestrogel without even really noticing. Biggest change according to my fit bit is deep sleep, and my skin looks loads and loads better, and weirdly my histamine response is better (I have oestrogen mediated mast cell activation, loads of fun!) - which I'm assuming might be the 24 hr steady dose.
Reb
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I just wanted to thank you all for this thread. I started on oestrogel In January then was given Oestrodose. My mood and fatigue plummeted at the same time. I thought it was the utrogestan I'd started at the same time but as time went on and I wasn't better during off P times (and changed to pv).
Didn't consider the gel until my oestrogen came back lower than we'd hope it would be. So my GP has sent Sandrena to the pharmacy today and we're hoping my levels will come up.
So thanks very much for all your sharing!
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Hey
You're welcome! Glad you found us, I think lots of women are really struggling and given the max licensed dose is 4 pumps, some women must be really suffering.
Lots of women find Sandrena to be quite potent - so if you can stand it, I'd err on the side of caution when starting and gradually work your way up to your sweet spot. I was one of the unlucky ones that it made me really jittery and revved up, but I'm doing fine so far on a patch. Others have found splitting the dose morning and evening with sandrena works better.
Please post your results if you get any further tests, and if you have a wobble, come back and we'll hold your hand, it's been a relief to not be on my own with all of this too.
Reb
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Thanks Reb, yes I saw your struggle with Sandrena. I used to be on patches, 75 oestrogen, Evorel, but I became allergic to the adhesive. Before my allergy I had one month of oestrodot patches and I didn't have a problem with that month. I saw you'd compared them in how they'd made you feel so I'm hoping I'll be OK 🤞🤞
I'm thinking of starting on 1g for a few days before going to the prescribed 1.5g as I too was worried it may be a shock to the system if I've either jot been absorbing well or there's not even much active ingredient in the gel, but totally appreciate the warning!
I'll definitely keep updated especially if I have more bloods done. I forgot to ask about that with gp today.
I hope the Evorel 100 keeps doing the trick for you.
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Hmm, I don't know why we'd stop absorbing due to cell receptors or whatever. I mean, I can understand that if we are applying the gel over the same area so it's double thickness either at once or putting the evening dose over the morning dose - but I apply each pump to its own area. So I don't see how cell receptors can stop absorption. I can see where the skin is wet from the previous pump and make sure to apply next to that pump...
I was on patches (Estrodot) to start with but got to 75 and realised I wasn't absorbing very well so then switched to gel. Now it looks like I don't absorb anything very well transdermally.
I haven't actually tested serum estradiol since 6 pumps of gel, when it was 334pmol or something. So I should see where I am.... I'm not even bleeding when I stop the utrogestan now, so I don't think it's too much....
As for "Tachyphylaxis", my serum estrogen has never been higher than that 334pmol when I've tested during my period, so that is what I'm getting from HRT. At the moment I'm not having periods because going continuous with the utrogestan and increasing the estrogen has stopped my own cycles I think, so I'm not sure what will happen the next time I test... And I hate the BMS, I think they are an alarmist converservative backwards-dragging organisation and we would still be stuck listening to the WHI study in their version of things.