Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Alternative Therapies => Topic started by: honeybun on February 18, 2015, 05:13:33 PM
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Given the fact that alternative thoughts and opinions seem to cause discord on the forum it would be really helpful to have a dedicated topic.
We have This and That....All things Menopause.....so
How many ladies would like to have a dedicated Alternatives section.
Could we have supportive posts please as if it's not your thing then it would have no impact as you could just avoid.
It could cover all sorts .....including supplements, herbal etc.
I am on HRT myself but have a real interest in natural ways too for all sorts.
It would make members, who have more of an interest in this side of things, feel more confident in posting questions.
I think it would bring something really positive to the forum.
Show of hands ladies.....then we can approach Dr Currie if we have enough support for this.
Honeyb
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I think a dedicated board for alternative approaches would be great - count me in.
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I would certainly read it. Everything is worth a try surely. "Dont knock it till youve tried it"
Im sorry Silverlady has gone as I enjoyed her posts and found them uplifting and refreshing.
Ariadne xx
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Thumbs up.
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Good idea, thumbs up from me too. Those wishing to go down the alternative route would be able to give each other support. Different treatments suit different people.
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I would support that. I take hrt but can't see anything wrong with information on alternative/ herbal remedies.
I'm so desperate whilst changing regimes anything would do ! ;D
Only proviso being some of these alternative shouldn't be mixed in with hrt, so anyone New to this scary phase in their lives need to be made aware of this incase things are made worse ! Just a thought x
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good idea its all about choices :)
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I support this idea as well. There is a lot of information on the main website that explains all the precautions and options for alternative remedies, members could be directed there to gather guidance as well as reading personal experiences here on the forum.
I think some things are very complementary to HRT and also for the future, beyond menopause and HRT. Complementary medicine and approaches to health are for the long haul - perhaps that's why they don't seem to 'work' for some people, they take longer to have an effect and I'm sure it's accumulative. I would happily share my knowledge if it was understood in this way and not as an 'alternative' to HRT, just as a lifestyle choice really. I would also value experience from other people as to how they slotted menopause into their existing 'alternative' health lifestyles.
Thanks for the suggestion Honeybun
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Seems a really good way to find out about ladies experiences with Alternatives
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A thread could be added to the already present 'alternative' section ……. remember though, that if alternative therapy 'worked' consistently then it would be available on the NHS or via UK Private Clinics/Consultants.
'natural' is not always healthy ;) i.e. foxgloves ……… cyanide …… arsenic - all natural but not good to take!
Also, Companies that push alternatives but also sell products via the internet should be avoided, for safety reasons. Sometimes even synthesised products are not regulated so they don't come out 'the same' each time.
Far better to buy from Pharmacists with advice. Nothing wrong with the placebo effect either ;)
My own experience MANY years ago was with a GP who had studied herbal medicine in China who I paid to visit about 4 times. He was very calm, seemed knowledgeable and what he told me 'made sense' at the time. However, it was the 'do not drink coffee' and 'do not eat anything with peppermint in it' that worried us ……… particularly as he was unable to tell us why not ……….
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I'm on HRT but when I come off it I may need alternatives, count me in.
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CLKD some therapies are available on the NHS and suggested by GP's. There are plenty of checks people can do to find reputable therapists and nutritional/herbal medicine practitioners, but people do need to be aware of how to do this and it's something I would appreciate sharing and reading about.
There is a huge misunderstanding about 'natural' medicine being safe, I agree with you that herbs need to be respected as they can have powerful effects if not used correctly. That isn't a reason to discount them, just as the safety issues around medicine don't stop people using them.
Many alternative treatments are not in the NHS system purely because there isn't enough research and standardisation for GP's to prescribe. People react differently to pharmaceuticals and they react differently to herbs and complementary therapies, the only difference in my mind is that being under the NHS umbrella gives a sense of security and confidence in using a medicine, which I completely understand.
There are definately ways to support the menopause in a wholistic way that don't even include herbs - access to mindfullness relaxation, positive thinking, food, diet, haircare, skincare, all sorts of things that address the ongoing changes in our bodies, that will continue long term.
I think it's a really positive and exciting way to view things :)
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'standardisation' is a really good word :thank you:
Did anyone have a 'witch' in their village ;) ….. we did, I used to creep past her bungalow as fast as possible :D
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Cheeky :) No I didn't ;)
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She was probably a childless person who 'knew' about herbs ……… Mum does mention her to this day ::), she knew her has 'Granny' …. which was confusing because I knew my Granny didn't live there :-\ ……….
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Ye count me in, great idea.
I'm on HRT but that was my choice through being desperate at the time and not knowing what to do. A separate section for alternative discussion only would be great for those wishing to discuss alternatives only without being pushed towards HRT or feeling this site is not for them and left feeling they are being pushed out.
As I said I started HRT in desperation for help being younger and didn't have a clue, it would help if there was more indepth discussions of how others have got through with alternatives, diet, How they have progressed.
Good call HB x
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Ladies probably wouldn't visit with us if they relied on 'altneratives' though [pity I can't spell :-X ]
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She was probably a childless person who 'knew' about herbs ……… Mum does mention her to this day ::), she knew her has 'Granny' …. which was confusing because I knew my Granny didn't live there :-\ ……….
Hold on..........I am childless and know about herbs............actually I don't know about herbs, but I know a man that does ;)
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I vote yes for an alternatives section also. Sounds like a great idea :)
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BrightLight - Isis, Istate, Diana etc. ………. :whist: …….. Mum dashed me to see 'Granny' when I fell badly onto my head ……. which probably explains a lot ;D …….. but I don't know what happened, I was too scared to even look at the woman …….
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Yes please :)
Libby
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CLKD
I think if ladies are on the section for alternative to HRT they would have a little nosey at other things too, some of the topics don't even mention HRT , just a bunch of women having a laugh sometimes ;D
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Liked your witches comment ;D
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:thankyou: ……… I expect that every village had a lady who would help …….. once they were no longer burned at the stake …
Have you found our 'funny' room yet ;)
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Can we not have a discussion here.....sorry but if we are going to approach Dr Currie we just need tonhave a clear idea of who and how many are in favour.
I know we get side tracked ::) but could we just keep to a yes if that's what the individual wants and why.
Honeyb
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Ladies probably wouldn't visit with us if they relied on 'altneratives' though [pity I can't spell :-X ]
I think a lot of women - like me - come to the forum looking for info and advice and answers as to what on earth is going on with their bodies and emotions! Even before peri has been diagnosed, women try self management.
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Sounds like a good idea. Women who are interested in alternatives will look for info anyway, so it would surely be a good thing to have a section on here to steer them in the right direction. At least it might help ensure people were informed in what they tried, and maybe less likely to try something dangerous or that doesn't mix with HRT.
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Sorry HB ::) ;D
Yes x
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:-[ - sorry
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Sounds like a good idea to me :)
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:great: (http://:great:) great idea HB x x
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It's a great idea HB, there are a lot of women out there ( my friends included) that can't take HRT, and some that are worried about the side effects, so a section dedicated to any alternative routes to relieve some or all of the symptoms would be a great help.
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Yes from me HB and thank you for taking on trying to get this established.
Thorntrees
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I've often felt a bit awkward, bringing the subject round to HRT alternatives, so a big yes from me, too, HB.
Dulciana
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It sounds like a good idea but we need to remember not to post commercial links i.e. ones that contain a "buy now" or "shop" or "cost of services" facility which is where we have come unstuck a few times in the past I think?
Taz x :)
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Absolutely Taz.
Hopefully this just might work though. God loves a tryer ::)
Honeyb
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:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
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Good idea
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Excellent idea, HB.
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Well it's fine to have a thread on this but we do have several already eg "HRT Good or Bad" and "Tell us how you've coped without HRT".
Perhaps it would be an idea to have an "alternative " section that those who are not able or don't want to go down the HRT route would feel comfortable asking and discussing things without any worries of science being the main theme.
Perhaps if enough of us were to ask the administrator, and as the forum is undergoing some work, it might be possible to have a dedicated alternative section.
Would anyone be interested in asking......should I start a new topic, and ask for a "show of hands" Then we could ask if it was possible.
Just a thought.
Honeyb
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However I don't quite understand the idea about "worries about science being the main theme". If we're talking about alternative remedies ie products such as herbal products, creams etc - they wouldn't be available to buy at all, if there had not been trials and studies (science) at least into their basic safety and safe dosage - even if not their efficacy!
In fact, it is in the forum rules that members are requested to provide information about any health or medical information they provide - which may be something that newer members are not aware of.
Here is the information:
Members are kindly requested to give references (eg links) to any health/medical information they provide, when it is not personal experience. Personal experience is anything the person has undergone himself/herself.
Information posted by members must be true and correct to their knowledge.
Here is the thread - information for members:
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8308.0.html
Of course alternative remedies are not exempt from this and to attempt to stifle proper discussion, by saying what can or cannot be said in a particular section can only lead to further conflict. This is an open forum and moderation is light touch provided everyone abides by the rules and it would be a pity to try to alter this by such a move ( ie to sideline scientific discussion!). I like to think we all respect each other and our views and opinions, but disagreeing with the science of some information that is linked to is different, and does not imply any lack of respect nor is it a personal attack, but healthy debate!
I find it very sad if members feel they are unable to ask about alternative remedies - as has been pointed out there is a section on these, and personally I enjoy the discussions and trying to help other members understand the minefield of information out there, and to help them in their choices.
As Taz rightly points out and honeybun accepts, of course we are not permitted to give commercial links or to be seen to promote a product and that includes identifying a particular product, the company that sells it and the web address - which is what led to the present posting issues.
There are all sorts of posts on here - members requesting and giving personal experiences, members needing and offering emotional support, giving and offering advice about all sorts of things, and requesting and providing information about menopause and HRT (science). There is room for all of these, and we all have different strengths and something to offer, but perhaps we should try not to muddle them all up!
To reiterate - anyone that provides links and information are all trying to help, but by doing so - must expect that if conflicting information/evidence is found - some members may well add to this or disagree - and are free to do so while adhering to forum rules.
CLKD some therapies are available on the NHS and suggested by GP's. There are plenty of checks people can do to find reputable therapists and nutritional/herbal medicine practitioners, but people do need to be aware of how to do this and it's something I would appreciate sharing and reading about.
There is a huge misunderstanding about 'natural' medicine being safe, I agree with you that herbs need to be respected as they can have powerful effects if not used correctly. That isn't a reason to discount them, just as the safety issues around medicine don't stop people using them.
Many alternative treatments are not in the NHS system purely because there isn't enough research and standardisation for GP's to prescribe. People react differently to pharmaceuticals and they react differently to herbs and complementary therapies, the only difference in my mind is that being under the NHS umbrella gives a sense of security and confidence in using a medicine, which I completely understand.
There are definately ways to support the menopause in a wholistic way that don't even include herbs - access to mindfullness relaxation, positive thinking, food, diet, haircare, skincare, all sorts of things that address the ongoing changes in our bodies, that will continue long term.
I think it's a really positive and exciting way to view things :)
I wholeheartedly support the holistic view expressed by BrightLight and anyone who has followed any of my posts will see that this is one of my frequent mantras too - that it is not just a question of taking HRT, or a herbal treatment or getting some acupuncture - this is not the cure all or elixir of a long healthy life - but a need especially at this time of our lives to look at our whole lifestyle and make modifications to ensure that we can enter this phase of our lives best equipped to cope with it.
Oh dear - this has been long again but felt I wanted to explain my position and thoughts :)
So in answer to your question honeybun - if we continue to have a free discussion about everything which might include the provision of scientific evidence where relevant - then fine. If such a move - for a separate thread/section will cause conflict and stifle debate then I would say, sadly no.
Incidentally there is nothing to stop anyone starting a thread with an appropriate heading and if it is popular it will just stay somewhere near the top like How Are You Today as members will keep on posting.
I wish everyone well at this difficult time of your lives and hope you are able to come to a solution that works - and particularly in the long term. Science will tell you which treatments are safe and are most likely to work - and where trials have been carried out - and these, together with the latest information, are given on this excellent website - but of course the decision on what to choose is yours alone, and I hope some of us can help with this decision :)
Hurdity x
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This thread has gone round my mind a lot in the early hours ::) - so yes, count me in if you are looking for numbers !
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Thank you for your comments Hurdity, they were just as I had expected.....however as has been mentioned in this topic some of our members feel uncomfortable discussing alternatives and it would seem at the moment you are a bit of a lone voice.
It maybe the moderators will agree with you but there is no harm in asking the question as there seems to be a good bit of support. Also quite a few of us have become increasingly upset with the way Silver lady was treated when she gave good advice on alternatives. If we had a dedicated section on alternatives perhaps that would not have happened and no member would feel bullied and leave the forum.
Thank you every one for what seems to be a good deal of support for this idea.
Honeyb
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Good idea count me in
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I don't see how you could stop proper discussion Honeybun. Someone might very well disagree with one of the alternatives mentioned due to personal experience or scientific fact even though they agree overall (as most of us do) with the upholding of everyone's right to try other treatments other than HRT. Does this then mean that they are not allowed to post anything negative?
Taz x :-\
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You're at it again :bang: ………. let's stop being personal and move on :'(
Some people agree with crystal therapy but the only benefit is a placebo effect …….. the beauty of the formations can give pleasure but a crystal is 'dead' ……… one is unable to get anything physical from a crystal ;) - so I agree that some find them lovely: as I do Blue John and Jade: are interested in the formation and where they are 'grown' - however ……...
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My next question is what exactly is an 'alternative therapy'? If I have a headache I have a choice: I can ignore symptoms and hope it goes away or I can do the alternative, which is take pain relief ………. :-\
Even with prescribed mediations I have been really ill with side-effect but there were no alternatives ……. St John's Wort was NOT an option.
This is an open Forum and all opinions should be listened to but answers become finger pointing or personal …….. if someone is hurt then they have the choice : lay low for a while or leave ……. many ladies get here because they are really ill and vulnerable so are looking for support and hopefully answers.
Historically many Forums fall apart at times because of upsets ……...
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I am personally not trying to do anything of the kind Taz. All this was meant to be was an opportunity for people to discuss the alternative side of things without being shouted down as often happens.
Of course discussion would take place and in disappointed that you would think I was trying to suggest anything else.
I really don't like the tone of the forum at the moment.
This was a fact finding topic to see how many of our members felt the same as I do but perhaps it wasn't such a good idea.....although on the other hand the general support speaks volumes don't you think :-\
Honeyb
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Open discussion is always important and gives us the opportunity of sharing experiences and supporting those who are struggling! the but written word is static and upsets happen because there isn't the opportunity for an instant response …….. :-\
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There's a difference between saying, "I tried x but it didn't work and made me feel worse" and saying, "if a,b,c,d was effective, the NHS would be prescribing them, so don't even bother trying them."
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It is true - if 'alternatives' worked they would be available on the NHS! which makes more products safe to use. I have never said 'don't bother trying them' …….. but I do request caution for products bought on the inter-net! because there isn't as much research and oh am searching for a word now :bang: …….. I sometimes feel that NICE takes far too long to allow new medications into the Market …. but we do at least have an organisation to check that medications are as safe as possible to use.
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This thread is going down the wrong road again
Yes or No
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Yes for a topic that is open to all
and yes - :'( - from where I'm sitting, caused because 1 Member thought she was being bullied ……..
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Silver Lady has sent me an email and asked me to post on the Where is Silver Lady thread. It explains just exactly what happened and why she left.
I will do that for her and after that I give up.
Honeyb
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CLKD, my post wasn't aimed at you. :-*
I was simply trying to make the point as to why I think HB has suggested a separate forum - so that alternative approaches can be discussed, not written off in one fell swoop.
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Don't give up HB, you are trying to do a good thing and you had a lot of support
PN x x
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Oh dear ::)
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:thankyou: it's that written word again ::) ………
Request sent Honeybun?
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The thing is...........it's a culture thing. If the forum wishes to remain a certain way then it remains a certain way and all peoples needs and interests can't always be accommodated. I do feel like there is an opportunity here - to integrate what appear here as two opposing views. HRT or 'Natural'. If a seperate area were available that might be good, to avoid any defensiveness or discussion as to efficay and perhaps just share experiences?
The forum guideliness do state that evidence needs to be given if it's not a personal experience, which does limit things somewhat for mentioning solutions that are non prescribed NHS ones, and I hadn't read this guideline properly before now.
Anyhow, the forum is trying to 'protect' visitors and until there is widespread acceptance and approval of complementary medicine, it is their perogative to continue to point out that these methods are not as well documented and trialed as HRT.
When it gets personal it's tricky isn't it? There is no need to outright say things don't work though, particularly if it has been a personal experience shared - I wouldn't think to point out the risks of HRT or other medicine to people that choose to use it. I am pretty sure we are all in favour of anything that heals us and improves quality of life and no one should be dismissed or invalidated. :)
We need to stick by the forum rules, which I have now read properly :)
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I think its a good idea for the ladies who want to investigate alternatives, they can then try them out , for some they may give some help, placebo or otherwise . They can then discuss away without feeling intimidated by those of us who have tried alternatives and have strong views one way or the other.
At the end of the day we are all grown up and posts do have the misfortune of being misinterpreted by some. Perhaps when they have tried everything going they can draw up a chart to see which is the most useful.
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It will be good to find out more about alternatives.
At the moment I am happy on my HRT, but I may not be able to use it forever. Knowledge of the alternatives would be vey helpful then.
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I have messaged Dr Currie with our thoughts and request.
As she is the person who started this great forum I'm hoping she will come back to us with a response.
I passed on our thoughts and wishes....so all we can do now is wait for a response, which you never know ladies maybe what a lot of us hope for.
Fingers crossed that someone is listening to what seems to me to be a bit of a positive message to MM.
Honeyb
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:)
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Count me in too. :)
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Why not keep this simple; we could share our OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES of trying any treatment, remedy or non conventional way(e.g. anything other than HRT or SSRIs/ADS) of helping with menopause symptoms.
If possible include information about how you felt before you started this, what benefits you got, any side effects or concerns you had about trying this, did you see a therapist or doctor for advice - perhaps rate it from 1-10 (1 being poor and 10 being good). Some reference to cost might also be helpful. Websites and brand names should NOT be included. Then anyone looking for non conventional ways for helping with their meno symptoms can read through this thread and decide if there is something they would like to try or research etc.
e.g. When I wasn't on HRT last year, my GP recommended I try Mindful Meditation and suggested a book I should read. I was finding the lack of sleep and flushes made it difficult to stay calm and in control, I felt irritable much of the time and was struggling to concentrate on things. I took her advice, though I was sceptical, and really found the Mindful Meditation calming. Building these sessions into my daily life was quite easy and apart from the cost of the book there was no expense. I still practise this - often doing a 3 minute session to help me focus or when something stressful happens. I would rate this as an 8.
Anyone else?
DG xxx
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It's a great idea DG.....that's exactly the kind of thoughts that could be shared.....but past experience says.......and I have been here for a long while.....whenever certain alternatives are suggested the more scientific amongst us rain all over it without letting the person who has posed the question experiment and / or ask for others experiences.
If the amount of PMs I have had is anything to go by there are lots of us who would like to discuss freely without being bombarded with links to this or that paper or study.
Just a sharing of experiences and thoughts knowing that like minded people or even just curious people are reading.....and will be supportive.
Honeyb
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Maybe you could have "Personal experiences only please" somewhere in the title?
Taz
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Good format suggestion DancingGirl - following something like that would make it easier to write, be useful and succint. Historically, if it was all in one place, it would be easier to search as well.
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Scientific evidence is vital and without proper studies to show benefits and risks we all need to be very careful what we do to ourselves or advice others to do. I don't think this should be a thread that invites responses but simply relates personal experience stories.
If someone wishes to try an alternative approach that they have read about then they should seek some professional advice about whether it is appropriate for them.
Before I discovered this site I tried almost every remedy and treatment going - spent an absolute fortune - with no success - so my scores on these things would be very low and this might help others to make an informed decision about whether to spend their money on a particular treatment.
WE often get threads asking about various supplements and remedies - we could simply direct these questions to this thread and women can make up their own minds whether something is worth the time, energy and money involved.
Some experiences about using the remedies and treatments mentioned on this site would be a very good starting point.
DG x
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Hopefully Dr Currie will look at all the suggestions and come up with something that would be of benefit for the forum.
Just got to wait and see I guess.
Honeyb
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Scientific evidence is tricky because what quantifies a suitable source? Personal use of complementary medicine or even a vitamin doesn't usually come after scientific research ;)
I have over 500 client records from treatments for Shiatsu and not one adverse effect but I can't provide evidence, only my recommendation along with caveats and cautions.
If its deemed suitable to have a dedicated section then that's great. Will wait and see the direction :)
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Maybe there could be a banner somewhere reminding people to only recommend from personal experience or data? Maybe that would help?
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I'd go along with that, BrightLight.
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Honeybun – I'm not sure why you are so vociferously anti-science all of a sudden – I don't remember you expressing these views so vehemently before, and you keep repeating this... ???
As I said before, we should remember that the website is run by a leading NHS gynaecologist - Dr Currie - and as such is underpinned by conventional medicine with science and evidence at its heart. The forum is an integral part of that and was referred to by the British Menopause Society as “patient ledâ€.
It won't make much difference whether there is a thread ( or section) on “Alternatives†on the forum – although logically it would be better to have a section on “Treatments†where all treatments can be detailed including HRT – but I think the forum does work pretty well as it is, and as I said there are already threads "Tell us how you manage without HRT" which covers it well, but if it is deemed helpful then so be it.
However, again as I said before – any attempt to stifle debate can only have a negative effect and lead to conflict. Think about it – there is a section where personal experiences only are permitted (actually there is one already) – if someone dares to provide some information, or a link to a study to try to help someone – is a member or the moderator going to warn them off?
Of course reading personal experiences are an enormous part of what gives comfort to other women during the menopausal years – but we mustn't confuse this with finding out what is the most effective treatment because this confuses belief with science. Three pages of testimony from lots of women about how they used a particular treatment and that it works – is not evidence that it does. As everyone knows this can only be provided by properly designed placebo controlled trials. Only these can tell you the likelihood of whether a treatment might work and in what percentage of cases. Anything else – "it worked for these women so I will try it because it sounds good" – is based on belief. Nothing wrong with the placebo effect – which is very powerful – I'm all for the power of the mind (as well as medicine) – but everyone should have access to as much information as possible in order to make an informed choice – and especially on a site such as this!
I like to think that most of us have sufficient tact and diplomacy to exercise judgement as to what to say and when on whatever thread, without being intimidating, and to be kindly in our responses and not need to put anyone down personally because of what they are saying. Anyone who does otherwise is informed by the moderator. Speaking for myself only, and it's a pity I have to spell this out but there have been so many negative comments about science, links and studies – I am confident that the way I have been posting and providing information is fine. In the two years since I rejoined the forum I have never once been warned or told by the moderator that anything is amiss with anything that I've said.
Let's try not to dictate who says what and where on this forum and continue to do our best to help each other in as helpful and kindly way as we can.
Hurdity x
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Hurdity, just a few points about your last post.
1)'the website is run by a leading NHS gynaecologist - Dr Currie'
Yes, but Dr Currie herself is an advocate of HRT, and the website is sponsored by two pharm companies.
2) I think the forum does work pretty well as it is,
Not so sure about this as there would not be this debate going on.
2) any attempt to stifle debate can only have a negative effect and lead to conflict.
But this is exactly what happens when alternatives are mentioned. If a brand name or website is named for
an alternative it's wrong. However brand names of HRT are used all the time. Don't forget every time your
GP writes a script for HRT a Pharma company makes a profit.
3) I am confident that the way I have been posting and providing information is fine.
So what you are indicating here is what you say is fine but others are doing it wrong.
4) Let's try not to dictate who says what and where on this forum
Well exactly, that is what Honeybuns post is all about.
Also don't forget that as far as 'proof' for the effectiveness of alternatives is concerned. 'ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE'. Pharma companies are often guilty of 'corporate crime' due to negligence in their research. In fact they have the need to pay fines for this included in their profit margins. I know this as I am an criminology student and have recently covered this in a module.
I do hope you take my comments on board in the true spirit of debate.
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I am not anti anything at all.
It's not to stifle debate on anything. It's to give women a place specifically to post on alternatives without being told HRT is the only way.
Your posts have in the past been helpful and informative and appreciated by many but they don't leave much room for other debate.
Mostly everyone seems to agree with this, so perhaps it's not such a strange concept.
I suspect that MM will agree with you but there is nothing like asking don't you think.
If nothing else happens then at least some of our members might feel more confident in posting questions without the fear of causing arguments which in some cases that is what inevitably happens.
I neither have ever been told by a moderator that my comments have been inappropriate.
Honeyb
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well said Rosebud !!!!
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To me this thread being moved to This n' That speaks volumes.
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From Hurdity's post yesterday ......."of course we are not permitted to give commercial links or to be seen to promote a product and that includes identifying a particular product, the company that sells it and the web address - which is what led to the present posting issues."
Please could we have some clarification on this - exactly what products can or can't we name? After all, as rosebud says, brand names of HRT are mentioned all the time. How can we attempt to help others if we can't name products that have worked for us? I am really confused by all this and from what other members have said in previous posts, I suspect they are too.
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As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong anyone, nothing wrong with naming products. It's if you add a link to a site which sells products directly.
We should all be able to discuss HRT, alternatives or anything else without prejudice. We are supposed to be a support group, offering help to others in the same position as ourselves. Yes, some topics can get heated due to opposing opinions, but that's OK so long as we remember they are opinions. We are all so very different, with varying symptoms. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.
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Can I ask how this forum is managed? I don't see moderators posting? Am I missing something? Usually a moderator 'guides' content
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Have thought about this some more and actually if we have an alternatives area it will probably still end up with heated discussion as newbies come along and try the alternatives and then discover for some of them they dont work and its cost a lot of money and we will be back to square one, now I saw one yesterday from comments on Guardian article, Pueria Micrifica Root - wonder what on earth that is?
:D Silver lady i think you should just come back as lots of us appreciated your research and comments,
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Well said Cubagirl!, I couldn't have put it better myself. The support and feeling you are not alone with what is happening to us is the important aspect of MM. Life can be stressful enough without antagonising each other over differences of opinion.
Thorntrees
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Your posts have in the past been helpful and informative and appreciated by many but they don't leave much room for other debate.
Mostly everyone seems to agree with this, so perhaps it's not such a strange concept.
Oh honeybun - I don't know what I've done to offend or upset you :-\ but to presume to speak on behalf of most of the forum that my posts don't leave room for other debate is a personal attack on my posting style and its content and you don't have the right to do that. No-one has the right to single someone out in this way.
Someone said to me recently:
"All that is needed is kindness and respect. You don't have to agree to live in harmony"
That speaks volumes.
There is no point in going over the same ground and anyone who reads my posts I hope will know that I (try to) never ever make personal attacks on an individual - even while disagreeing with what they say, or providing information that I find.
Please think about the things you are saying and have said or implied - I didn't want to draw attention to myself, nor have an undignified argument but to continue this relentless personal criticism in public is deeply upsetting, :'( so I think it's time to call it a day don't you?
Absoutely thorntrees.
Hurdity
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Hurdity....why are you taking this so personally. That was never the intention.
Lots of women have supported the initial idea but you seem to think that I am targeting you. I have neither been upset nor offended by anything you have ever done. When I started this topic....please don't take offence.....you never entered my mind at all....and i don't mean that in a bad way.
My initial post says.....
Given the fact that alternative thoughts and opinions seem to cause discord on the forum it would be really helpful to have a dedicated topic.
We have This and That....All things Menopause.....so
How many ladies would like to have a dedicated Alternatives section.
Could we have supportive posts please as if it's not your thing then it would have no impact as you could just avoid.
It could cover all sorts .....including supplements, herbal etc.
I am on HRT myself but have a real interest in natural ways too for all sorts.
It would make members, who have more of an interest in this side of things, feel more confident in posting questions.
I think it would bring something really positive to the forum.
Show of hands ladies.....then we can approach Dr Currie if we have enough support for this.
Where exactly in that post is any reason to think that people's views are not being respected?
You surely can't disagree that alternatives discussion have caused upset and argument in the past and over the years people have left.
Please stop taking offence over this because it would not effect anyone who did not want to take part in that section of the forum.
To the best of my ability over my years on the forum I have always tried to treat people with kindness and respect. Perhaps I have not been as successful at that as I previously thought.
Honeyb
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Which was I was asking in the first place.
A yes or no would have done fine instead of all this ::)
Honeyb
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Wonder if it would be possible to set it up like a survey HB. Like would you be in favour of an Alternatives section? Yes or No. It would maybe need Emma to do that mind you because if you're anything like me these technical things are gobbledygook. ;)
You took the bull by the horns by bringing up the subject HB, so good on you for taking the initiative. If you don't ask you don't get. Well that's my motto anyway. :)
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This is hard work, I bet you're sorry you started this HB.
Count me in.
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I would be very interested in the dedicated alternatives topic. Am not on HRT, may or may not ever go on it, but regardless would be keen to hear about alternatives that have worked for others. So count me in too.
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Unfortunately....the only response I have had up until now is from Emma who says she is too busy at the moment.
Guess we have to wait and see if Dr Currie has time to consider our request.
I'm sure they will be fair and even handed with the decision and let all of us know the reasons why....positive or not.
Hope we don't have to wait too long even though they are busy people.
Honeyb
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Hey girls – there has been so much interest in a dedicated topic about alternatives and I did suggest at the beginning of honeybun's request that we needn't wait for moderators to decide on this, and that anyone could start a thread on it and if it proved popular it would always stay near the top, just as “How are you today†does, or be bumped like CLKD's “My Bladder†thread. No-one seems to have done that, so I thought I would start one – it's over here:
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,27099.0.html
There you go! :)
Hurdity x
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)'the website is run by a leading NHS gynaecologist - Dr Currie'
Yes, but Dr Currie herself is an advocate of HRT, and the website is sponsored by two pharm companies.
I think the forum does work pretty well as it is,
Not so sure about this as there would not be this debate going on.
any attempt to stifle debate can only have a negative effect and lead to conflict.
But this is exactly what happens when alternatives are mentioned. If a brand name or website is named for
an alternative it's wrong. However brand names of HRT are used all the time. Don't forget every time your
GP writes a script for HRT a Pharma company makes a profit.
Let's try not to dictate who says what and where on this forum
Well exactly, that is what Honeybuns post is all about.
Also don't forget that as far as 'proof' for the effectiveness of alternatives is concerned. 'ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE'. Pharma companies are often guilty of 'corporate crime' due to negligence in their research. In fact they have the need to pay fines for this included in their profit margins. I know this as I am an criminology student and have recently covered this in a module.
The above points are some of the more negative things that have been bubbling under the surface for me in the last few days - I find the focus and intention of this site quite confusing, I don't really understand why it isn't clearer on it's principles. It took me ages to work out that the focus is on scientific, medical, mainstream treatment for menopausal symptoms. That's all fine, but part of me thinks, why have all the other stuff on the menus? ;)
Ultimately it's made me think about what is provided for women in general around the menopause and I think it should be more than just the period of time where symptoms are apparent and overwhelming, thus prescribing HRT. I can't really work out whether the medical profession wants to use HRT as a preventative as well as symptom control - either way I find it a bit depressing that there isn't more interest from the mainstream arenas on the issues and changes we face before during and after menopause.
For me the suggestion of this thread is a good start in widening the focus to include women and solutions that they find themselves (because let's face it there IS no conventional support or trials or research). Mainstream medicine acknowledges the need to trial CAM's (Complementary and alternative medicines) precisely because over the years women have been trialling and searching for their own solutions. In Australia the majority of women do not use HRT because there is more support within mainstream medicine for all manner of solutions.
I know I am being controversial here and this thread was for a Yes or No for HoneyBun, but there is nowhere else for me to write this really - sorry HoneyBun x
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Brightlight - what you are advocating is a more holistic approach and I doubt this will ever be truly available on the NHS - or not until the government admits we all need to pay a lot more into the NHS to get the holistic treatment we would all like. This is why so many women are forced to seek help privately. There are simply not the resources and GPs don't have the time to spend going into everything that is going on with our minds and bodies and then advising accordingly. In an ideal world that is what should happen not just for the menopause but for all types of treatment.
The NHS has to concentrate on treating the front line problems, use drugs and treatments within strict guidelines (with good reason). Menopause is seen as a 'quality of life' issue - we're not going to die from this but when symptoms are severe they are obliged to give treatment or there will be consequences e.g. we might have to stop working. HRT is considered by many in the medical profession as a last resort because many GPs don't have the time or training to keep up to date with current thinking. Of course HRT or even SRRIs/ADs are not appropriate or desirable for many women - they simply doesn't suit every women. Many women are simply refused HRT once they have been on it for 5 years and then left high and dry without help with their symptoms unless they try SRRI/ADs which bring their own side effects and often don't work. The need for alternative ways to treat our symptoms is very great and again what works for one woman may not work for another. This highlights the need for Well Women Centres that can provide a more holistic and informed approach.
My GP suggested I use Mindful Meditation (which I highlighted earlier on this thread) and she did suggest I increase my Phytoestrogen intake, which did nothing for me - I also tried Red Clover which is very expensive with no beneficial effect.
Too many women end up on a cocktail of drugs do deal with what must be meno symptoms and a more holistic approach is badly needed. This is why so many women turn to so called 'alternative' ways to help them - sadly many of these are very expensive and as yet there is very little evidence that they all work. If they did work then drug companies would be producing them commercially and they would be available on the NHS. I speak as someone who has tried sooooo many things and I really wish I had saved my money - I could have had a lovely holiday instead which would probably have done me more good.
I do think educating women about what to expect at the menopause and offering better advice about how to deal with it should be a priority; I fear this will not happen quickly as the more women know and understand the more they will demand treatment - this is why this site is so special. Yes, this site needs to concentrate on more conventional treatments as it empowers women to ask for what they need.
Should we discuss alternative treatments on this site - absolutely - but it must be done within perimeters and we must be careful what we put forward. Many websites offering treatments will feature testimonials praising what is being sold - they are not going to feature the negative comments so we should be sceptical.
This is a reputable site that the medical profession and women can trust.
Please - lets keep supporting each other in a positive way.
DG x
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Thank you all.
I still have had no response. Perhaps if a good few of us messaged Dr Currie and Emma it might put over the message that we think there is a place for this on the forum.
At the moment I don't think that a couple of messages from one member, despite this topic, is going to carry much weight.
Just a thought.
Honeyb
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:thankyou: Dancinggirl - brilliant post.
I sincerely hope that a "good few" of you do not send messages to Dr Currie or Emma. For goodness sake - think about what they have to do in their lives especially Dr Currie! Do you really want to clog up their inboxes? Honeybun has made the request through the proper channels and it will be considered at the appropriate time. Whether there is a section or not is neither here nor there to me, but please do not distract professionals from more important stuff. Although I can see some of you feel strongly about this, it really is a trivial issue (ie whether or not there is a separate section of the forum) in the grand scale of things - and as I said - if anyone wants to post about alternative treatements there is plenty of opportunity to do so, and there is a lot of information on this site already which I highlighted in a new thread.
Hurdity
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Hurdity, if this topic is of no concern to you, that's fine. However as you can see from the posts it is of deep concern to many of us.
I don't think it would be right to 'drop it', just because you don't approve.
A little more respect for others views please.
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My post is STILL there Hurdity (see page 5).
Why would you assume it has been delete????
What a strange thing to say. Please explain yourself.
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Wow.
I'm becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the tone of some of the posts on here.
There's a sense of gate keeping, which is not what I thought the forum was about. :o
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I'm locking this topic for the weekend.