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Author Topic: HRT dilemma  (Read 4868 times)

Flaky47

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HRT dilemma
« on: September 02, 2018, 08:34:20 AM »

Hi. I'm new to the forum but have been browsing over the last few weeks and found it really interesting. Also a bit addictive - it's easy to get lost in it for an hour or two and end up cross-eyed!

I am 47 and recently started on HRT - Evorel Conti patches.

Looking back I probably started having menopausal symptoms somewhere around 40. It's a bit hard to tell, over the years I've never had regular periods and also had PCOS. It means there was no 'normal' for me - sometimes heavy periods, sometimes light, never completely regular and sometimes absent. When young (under 20) I was told that I couldn't have the combined pill due to frequent and ferocious focal migraines (I had them from early teens) and would never be able to have anything containing oestrogen. This led to various bad choices for contraception including the depo provera injection (supposed to last three months but made me feel terrible for a couple of years) and also the progesterone only pill (also made me feel terrible) and a coil (lasted a couple of months and then had it removed because it was constantly uncomfortable). Add to that various unsuccessful fertility treatments (Clomid, FSH injections etc) and my body has been bombarded a bit through the years.

One constant was that I always felt desperately low around period time, and also even when light always had lots of pain and lost a couple of days in bed with a hot water bottle and painkillers.

I promised myself no more hormonal treatments and that natural was the way to go.  Oh how naïve I was!  ;D

My migraines stopped in my late 30s but when I started going to various doctors in my early 40s with menopause symptoms each doctor that I saw confirmed that I couldn't have HRT due to the oestrogen content. I was recommended everything from burgen bread to longer walks with my dog to deal with overwhelming symptoms. I even saw a doctor, in tears, because I couldn't cope any more and begged for reassurance that all of this would go as I passed the menopause and he (yes, male) smiled and told me that for some women the symptoms never disappear...

Anyway, I'm rambling. Earlier this year I stumbled on a good doctor who seemed a bit confused at the results of some general blood tests that seemed to show I was menopausal, but surely not because I was too young. A bit shocked, I pointed out how long I had been seeing doctors and getting nowhere and to my relief she said that she was sure I could take HRT but she needed to do some research and also wanted a bone density scan because I had been going through it all quite young. I could have kissed her!  :-*

Bone density scan showed osteopenia. Research suggested HRT transdermally is ok for migraines, dose as low as possible and constant (ie not the ups and downs often found with tablets).

She prescribed Evorel Conti patches and I have been on them for three months.

Looking at the list of 35 symptoms on the advice for husbands I have all of them except the hair loss and the tinnitus.

The patches have eased the hot flushes. They had been every 20-30 minutes, day and night, sweat dripping from the end of my nose and running down my back and legs, accompanied by feeling like I might pass out. They were debilitating and I couldn't live a life any more. I now have very mild flushes occasionally (every few hours, one or two in the night and always one as soon as I move as I am waking in the morning). They are manageable. The patches have also eliminated the terrible rage that makes me want to explode.

So far I haven't had any nasty side effects with the patches. I have a few acne type lumps along my jawline and also have that horrible pmt-type swollen feeling all of the time. I have had a little light bleeding occasionally (no pain and the bleeding was not even enough to need any protection) but I'm hoping that will disappear.

My dilemma is that I still have all the other symptoms. My feet, ankles and knees hurt and when I have been still for a while I am hobbling around like an old lady until they loosen. I have one frozen shoulder which is incredibly painful 24 hours a day from neck to fingers. The other shoulder and arm are also painful, but not yet frozen. Physio didn't work so I'm now seeing an osteopath for manipulation and accupuncture.

I feel very low. My brain doesn't work. My memory is terrible and I am absolutely exhausted. I have absolutely no libido.

It is very difficult to work. I run my own business and am about to get very busy. At the moment I'm not sharp enough to do it, and also have trouble making myself motivated to care about my business - a dangerous path. As for the libido, I really do miss my sex life and I'm sure my poor husband does too!  I'm very quiet (mostly silent) because I'm concentrating so much on putting one foot in front of the other, eating regularly and getting through the day that I don't really have the capacity for conversation (again, poor husband, who is getting yes and no answers and not much more).

My doctor, although good, doesn't seem to accept that the aches and pains or other symptoms are menopause related so her objective is to protect my bones and reduce the hot flushes, both of which have probably been achieved.

I don't know whether I should accept that the patches have helped, without significant side effects, and that I just have to cope with the rest or possibly accept a reduced life. Or maybe I should be pushing for something different/stronger but then that might bring tougher consequences with side effects - not least migraines which I definitely couldn't cope with again.

It's all a bit confusing. Sorry for the long ramble!
I think that's my Sunday morning rant off my chest. Time to go and warm up my wonky ankles ready for a medically advised stumble round the fields with my dog. Thanks for listening  :)
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CLKD

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 10:12:51 AM »

Sounds within normal limits from where I'm sitting.   ::)

As oestrogen levels drop muscles may become lax = aches and pains.  Have you tried an over-the-counter pain relief?  I find two Nurofen helps.  A chat with a Pharmacist might give advice as to which is best.  Also, as levels drop the body may become dry: inside and out  >:( - deep in the ears, up the nostrils, skin, vagina  :o, back of the throat.  4 me it was insteps.  As I took off my socks at night the itching would begin, also across my back ......... that went after a few years.

Frozen shoulder is common in ladies of a certain age, due to the laxity.  Without movement this condition heals in about 2 years, but we move, constantly.  Breathing, sneezing, turning over in bed.  There are exercises that may relieve the locked up joint.  My Mum was advised to bed forwards from the waist and make 'stirring pudding' movements towards the floor, working on the principal that gravity might help.

Read round.  Make notes.   :welcomemm:  Your GP/s were negligent in not taking your symptoms seriously, have you read the Daisy web-site for early menopause?  Anyone with a hint of symptoms prior to 40 should be on HRT to protect heart and bones. 

We have a dog, exercise, cycling, holiday thread here ..... as well as a humorous room ;-)
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Dotty

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 11:05:45 AM »

Hi I would suggest trying Oestrogel or oestrogen patches with Utrogestan. You may need a higher dose of oestrogen and the progesterone in Evorel Conti is synthetic and may be causing you problems. X
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Dancinggirl

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2018, 02:20:23 PM »

Hi and welcome mm flaky

It sounds to me as though the doctors you saw early on were bonkers!!! You are obviously sensitive to progesterone and your body is crying out for oestrogen. It tends to be progesterone that causes  headaches. I believe you have been badly in need of oestrogen for many years.
It can take some time for HRT to really work it's magic ( you might need to persevere with these patches for a bit longer) but I do think that using progesterone all the time might not be good for you, considering your past experince with progesterone treatment. Sequential hrt will mean putting up with a monthly bleed but this may be preferable to continuously using progesterone.
As Dotty has suggested, Oestrogel or oestrogen patches with seperate progesterone on a sequential basis might well be your best option to try next.
The aches and pains could improve in time but some advice from an osteopath might be good.
Keep us posted DG x
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Flaky47

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 10:00:48 AM »

Thank you all for the support.

Frozen shoulders, yes the osteopath has warned that it's a two year condition but with acupuncture and manipulation there's a possibility of reducing the pain slightly and also maybe shortening the duration. No quick fix though, and you're right - I spend lots of time making that stirring motion as well as a couple of other exercises. I've been warned not to take ibuprofen regularly because of the risk of damage to the stomach so the only regular option is paracetamol, which I'm using but the pain is still enough to be constant through the day and also to wake me frequently at night. There's also voltarol gel but when you can't move your arms properly it's not possible to apply it! Plus obviously it's medicated and there's a specific dosage which doesn't go very far when there is pain in two shoulders, neck, elbows, wrists.

From memory, the oestrogen/focal migraine issue isn't due to the risk of the oestrogen causing the headaches, it's down to stroke risk. People who have focal migraines have a higher than average risk of stroke. Oestrogen in the combined pill also carries a stroke risk so that two together isn't acceptable. Now I discover that the oestrogen in HRT is much lower than the pill so it's possilble, but transdermal is best. If only I had known that a few years earlier.

Regarding the HRT, I have an appointment next week with the doctor and will do some surfing in the meantime. I had also wondered about upping the oestrogen a bit and asking about utrogestan following the reading I had done on this site. It does at least make me feel like there might be some options to consider  :)

Thank you!

Oh... and now I know why my ears are itching! That was one symptom that I hadn't linked to the menopause  :-\
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TabbyKat007

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 01:22:44 PM »

So good to read your post.  I also run my own company and feel completely blocked off at the moment.  Feel like I'm losing momentum and interest.  Bah! So sorry that you are feeling this way but boy! Am I glad I'm not the only one x
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Flaky47

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 04:58:06 PM »

Hi Tabbykat
Reading through the strings of the forum, whatever problem we have we will never be the only one!
I'm lucky, I run my business from home so I can juggle round bad days but that doesn't mean I can stop working and I have the double problem of really not being capable, but also not really caring!
I'm hoping some sort of adrenalin will kick in and spur me into action - the mortgage still has to be paid  ::)
I hope you feel better soon :)
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Flaky47

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2018, 03:59:14 PM »

Well, I have been to the doctor's today and came out thinking slightly differently.

She suggested that actually I have three separate things to look at rather than assuming it's all menopause and I think I might agree.

The HRT has stopped the ferocious hot flushes and also got rid of the rage, which suggests that the levels are probably about right, and they're enough to protect my bones. The patches also haven't caused any serious side effects, something that I'm really grateful for considering the difficulties that many people have with HRT (my main fear being migraines which I really don't want back).

For my shoulders, I have x-ray booked which will probably lead to an ultrascan and then depending on the results consider a steroid injection.

She has also suggested that maybe feeling so low and tired is something separate and more lifestyle related so perhaps some low dose fluoxetine might be the way to go. Bearing in mind I have always found life a struggle I am beginning to feel that she might be right. I have resisted ADs in the past (apart from a brief flirtation with citalopram) but I have had CBT in the past during a particularly bad time in my life and other than that just struggled on quietly. Maybe many years of that have caught up with me.

I said I wanted time to think about it but wondering if that might actually be the way to go - keep the HRT as it is, explore the shoulder problems further and see if there's a treatment (other than the osteopath and acupuncture). Maybe the fluoxetine would make me feel more human and help get my brain working again, and  if that's combined with some relief for my shoulders I might get more sleep and also feel more inclined towards exercise?

Although the running round in circles in my mind trying to decide what to do must count as exercise?  ;D
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Dancinggirl

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2018, 05:12:56 PM »

Your post makes sense Flaky, although I would hold off with the AD for now as it could bring more side effects than benefits. Do look up the side effects of Fluoxetine before considering it. 
I do thin it's good you have been referred for some treatment for the shoulder pain - the steroid injections can be very helpful.

I actually wonder if you will start to sleep and feel better now you have a plan of action in place - I really hope so.

Keep us posted.  DG x
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NorthArm

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2018, 07:02:19 AM »

Hi Flaky47

Just wondering how you're going?
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Hegarty50

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2018, 09:01:33 AM »

Hi my names Lisa I'm 50 and suffer with terrible health anxiety. I know I'm going through peri my periods are up and down. But my muscles and joints ache terribly I also twitch and jerk and it's scaring me to death. I googled which I constantly do and its says you twitch with mnd and have muscle spasms and aches I'm literally scared to death as I'm convinced  I have it. And obviously when my anxiety is high these symptoms get worse. My memory is so bad aswell that I also worry I have dementia, I even sometimes have trouble listening to instructions at work and following conversations. I hate blois Google. I scares me to death but I just can't help looking x
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Dancinggirl

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2018, 10:53:47 AM »

Hi and welcome to MM Hegarty50

Do start your own thread as other forum member may not get to read your post.
 
If you post under 'new members' and give us some more details about yourself this would really help. 

How are you periods these days - erratic, light, heavy etc? Do you get flushes and night sweats?  Have you discussed your concerns with you GP? Are you on any medication for you anxiety?

This is a very reputable site founded by a specialist NHS gynaecologist, so the factual information on here is excellent - so do read up as much as you can to get clued up. The forum is for women to share adn support each other through this challenging time in their lives.

I expect your twitches are more to do with fatigue and stress, so learning some relaxation techniques will help.  Aches in muscles and joints are quite normal for peri menopause.

AS you are peri menopausal, I think this article really helps to explain what is going on with your body through the peri stage and will hopefully bring your reassurance.

https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/magazine/pdf/Article%20-%20Perils%20of%20the%20Perimenopause.pdf

Tackling life style choices is crucial as a first way to cope with the menopause - so get the diet, exercise and relaxation techniques in your life in top order. Having done this, then sometimes HRT can be beneficial in the peri stage to balance out the hormones while they are fluctuating.

Keep posting. DG x
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Flaky47

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2018, 01:18:02 PM »

Hi NorthArm

No news here. HRT is stable and not causing any side effects, but also not quite solving everything that I'd like.

My current thought is to leave it as it is and try to sort out things one at a time. Starting point is my shoulders. I've had all the tests for arthritis and they were all clear. X-ray also clear so the next step is an ultrasound. It's slow though, another month to go before that appointment. After that maybe steroid injections in the shoulder joints to see if that helps. I really hope so, it's ages since I've had a good night's sleep because of the pain and I'd really like to be able to get dressed and undressed without assistance.

For a few months I took Solgar 7, which are really expensive but supposed to be good for joint pain. I stopped, thinking that it was a waste of money because my shoulders were so painful and also my knees, ankles and feet. I think since I stopped taking them the pain has got worse though so might have to take the plunge and buy another bottle!

I also haven't done anything about anti-depressants. I'm still reluctant. I bought some Kalms yesterday (used to use them years ago) but haven't started on them yet.

It's still day to day at the moment, but I'm about to get really busy with work and life so I suppose I'll either sink or swim!

Hi Hegarty50.
Google is scary isn't it? I am confident that I don't have any major issues but there are a few that niggle in the back of my mind, partly thanks to google. Dancing girl is right about relaxation techniques. I used to do yoga - I was useless at it but it did do me good. I could never do the meditation side of it but just concentrating on the movement helped and also the fact that it made my body feel stronger and more flexible somehow helped my mind. I haven't been able to do it for a year or so and I really hope that once my shoulder issues are solved I might be able to go back to it because I know how strong the benefits are. I also found swimming quite relaxing - again I'm not good at it but i could splash my way up and down a few lengths and it seemed to calm my mind, in addition to helping me sleep and also making my body feel stronger. These clunky shoulders have a lot to answer for, I really hope they are solved by the end of the year!

There are plenty of people on here who will be feeling the same thing, there's always plenty of support when you need it.

So if google medical is a downside of the internet, this site is definitely an upside!
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Flaky47

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2018, 11:01:19 AM »

Hi All.

I have a Sandrena question. I have just changed from Evorel Conti to Sandrena gel (1.0 per day in the morning) and utrogestan (100 per day at night). I only changed a few days ago, and the reason was to separate the oestrogen and progesterone so that oestrogen can be adjusted if necessary.

At the moment it feels like a backwards step but I know I need to give it time.

My question - gel is supposed to give a constant level, but I am feeling like I am on a rollercoaster through the day. I'm applying the gel in the morning,  feel a bit wired about an hour later and then by the afternoon I'm ready to commit murder!

Am I imagining it?
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NorthArm

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Re: HRT dilemma
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2018, 08:47:53 PM »

Hi Flaky

Can you use 1/2 sachet in the morning, then the other 1/2 about 12 hours later. Or you could use an oestrogen only patch where the transdermal transfer is more constant. It's still early days for you, perhaps give the new regime a good month to see if there's a difference.

Some people are also very sensitive to progesterone, even the Utrogestan- see how you get on with it orally. If things aren't improving, you can always ask to try it vaginally.

It's also a good idea to keep a bit of a diary during this changeover time, that way you can compare how you're feeling after a month to how you feel now.

Good luck with it all xx
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