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Author Topic: EMDR  (Read 8139 times)

groundhog

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EMDR
« on: August 05, 2018, 01:34:46 PM »

Hi Dangermouse and all,
This was mentioned on another thread but I didn't want to hijack that thread .
EMDR ( Eye movement desensitisation reprocessing) - I just wanted to know if anyone had any experience on this.
As you probably know I had a trauma  nearly 4 years ago ( omg ) when surgery went wrong leaving me with a fistula, long story but it's changed my physical and mental health.  No resolution in sight. 
I had EMDR last week by an nhs counsellor who is very efficient and highly qualified.  The reasoning behind it is ( I think ) that bilateral stimulation of the brain can release stuck negative thoughts and traumas,  so I had a buzzer in each hand which buzzed simultaneously and then it stopped and the lady asked me questions about that thought did I have.  Sometimes it was nothing, or anxiety or what was for tea! I'm not sure it had any effect at all !  It last about 90 minutes, I did feel exhausted after and felt unwell the next day but that's noting new.
She is continuing to see me andwill offer cbt , im not sure if the EMDR is an ongoing thing ?

I am depressed I know that, anxious and very unhappy but I'm not sure it's the trauma of the perforation alone that caused this.  I think it's just the ripple effect it's had on my life . EMDR , again I think, primarily deals with trauma,  in my case the trauma is still there as I still have the fistula and all that entails.  Plus I had my ovaries out and wonder how much that is responsible for my low low mood. It's hard to quantify as when I feel well,  I feel happier so my GP doesn't think  it's hormonal. 

Any thoughts ladies?

I know dangermouse has qualified in this so I'm hoping for some insight xxxx
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CLKD

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2018, 02:31:46 PM »

I would think that EMDR is instead of CBT?  Why both?  Do you have homework?
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groundhog

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2018, 09:17:41 AM »

Hi CLKD,
I think it's like comparing ‘apples and pears ‘.  Totally different concepts. 
I'm hoping Dangermouse will help me out here xx
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dangermouse

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2018, 10:27:04 AM »

I think it's helpful to first understand how EMDR came about. Francine Shapiro was walking through a park thinking, as usual, about her problems and she noticed that by the end of her walk she felt so much better. She then realised that as she walked through the park that she was glancing from one tree on one side of the path to another on the other side, creating rapid eye movement (similar to when we dream at night) which led to her creation of EMDR to process those painful memories that have been pushed aside at the time because they were too painful to deal with.

The reason it is so successful for trauma is due to the act of rationalising your thoughts whilst simultaneously experiencing your feelings. The same can be achieved with hypnosis whilst receiving rational questioning or, if the  patient feels safe with their therapist, they can let themselves ‘go there' using pure CBT. However, it's often difficult to access those abject moments or terror or sadness in a clinical safe setting. The EMDR also confuses that state, a little like rapid hypnotic inductions (which are rarely used in the therapy room, more for the stage).

The source of the negative emotions is only relevant in terms of how you feel now, your perception about how it's affected you along with any regret, guilt, loss, grief etc. It's about accepting that the past can't be changed and processing your situation in the here and now, looking forward and then being able to look back whilst only experiencing the memory without emotion, as the pain is gone.

Another great analogy is sitting on a train with all your baggage and as it comes to each stop you drop one of the bags off and you feel lighter and lighter as you move along the tracks (each EMDR set). It can be a very liberating therapy.

During the reflection after each EMDR set, the questions are CBT based, so rational and based on the thoughts that were behind the feelings, so the two work well together and some of the less painful questions can be talked about in more detail outside of the EMDR process.

Hormonal anxiety will up your stress hormones and add to any negative thoughts as this is not thought driven, it's your brain assuming there's a problem due to sudden hormone crashes and pumping out extra stress hormones to allow you to run from the perceived problems. The physical sensation is the same but the source is different.

The main thing for you to remember in EMDR therapy is to stay in the moment, just let out whatever thoughts you're having (some may seem strange and unrelated but they can be behind what you assumed was the cause). It's about how you feel now, not how you felt then, as this is what you're living and experiencing right now.

Your therapist may next try pure CBT with you so you have a direct comparison as to which is suiting you better. They should then remain flexible to you choosing one over another.

Most failures in EMDR and hypnosis are down to the patient not understanding what they're meant to be doing. Neither are passive so strong instructions are key, particularly in hypnosis where it's all about intent focus and nudging away the conscious thoughts that pop into your mind every now and again.
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CLKD

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2018, 10:36:12 AM »

 :thankyou:
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dangermouse

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2018, 10:46:23 AM »

Just to add, an example of the very common misconception “I'm not good enough” could be something either suddenly blurted out from the subconscious during EMDR or hypnosis, or discovered during CBT when looking at the worst thing about, for example, being judged.

Further processing of that unhealthy negative thought during EMDR, or chatted through in a CBT session, will bring up solid proof that this is not true. It's obviously such a blanket statement that's exaggerated in our minds when feeling inadequate, but our subconscious is like a computer and accepts all and assumes it means an absolute lack of any skills or abilities. This is impossible for anyone and once the lie is broken, the healthy negative* thought that “I'm a fallible human being just like everyone else but I'm very capable in many areas” gets accepted by the subconscious and the anxiety turns into healthy concern.

* Positive thought like ‘I love my job' aren't concerns so don't need processing.

It's not about feeling perfect it's about feeling ok, with moments of feeling great. This is normal and healthy.
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groundhog

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 08:27:51 PM »

Thanks Dangermouse that is a fab explanation.  The counsellor did explain it but I wasn't sure how or if it was achiev8ng anything or if I was doing it right.
I think the problem is with me there are so many things going on, how do I disentangle it all.  There's the surgery going wrong, massive disappointment but the thing is I'm still having quite major problems
As fistula rarely heal without surgery.  I find it hard to accept a life of chronic ill health owing to a surgical complication.  Plus of course dur8ng the hysterecomty they took my ovaries out so how much does that contribute.  My mother going into a home , my family situation, loss of job, hubby very reluctantly retiring and us together 24/7, there's been so much I don't know what to concentrate on.
Funnily enough ‘I am not enough' is something I've said t my husband today ( which went down like a lead balloon ). Bit it's true  he doesn't want me Unwell,  he can't cope, he's great when I'm well but as soon as I go down hill his attitude changes as if he doesn't believe me. I see his love as conditional now as if I'm ok and can like I used to be then that's fine, but the broken me he dislikes so much. 
Anyway thanks again for explaining EDMR.  Next time I see her it will be cbt . I explained to her that before hav8ng this catastrophic surgery I had cbt for months to try and make me see the benefits of surgery but my fears were realised when it went wrong , she said cbt isn't about positive thinking, it's about rational and realistic thinking so hopefully it will ultimately help me see through the mire.
Thanks again, very grateful x
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dangermouse

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 09:53:13 PM »

Glad it helped!

In terms with how you disentangle everything, you start with the worst thing, and then the worst part about that thing and take it from there. Sometimes you're lucky and will hit on the root cause which knocks out all the other issues, or there may be 2 or 3 branches. Both EMDR and CBT will deal with these well.

Also remember that other people, like your husband, may have their own set of unhealthy beliefs that are actually their responsibility to deal with so don't feel it's all down to you, he can choose how he reacts as can you. Taking responsibility means taking control. However, if he doesn't fancy therapy then you can educate him from what you learn as he is just feeling his way around too and it won't be intentional.
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Robin

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2018, 11:52:37 AM »

That's a really helpful explanation dangermouse thank you. If somebody has had several traumas can the process be repeated for each one or is more useful for when there is one main trauma?
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groundhog

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2018, 05:22:14 PM »

Hi again,
I asked my counsellor that Robin and she implied you can do EMDR for each trauma.  Makes it sound so black and white somehow.  I'm not sure if it worked for me or not.  I certainly felt exhausted after the session and I don't think I'm thinking about it all quite so much.  That said that's because I've been slightly better as I'm on antibiotics.
I went back to see the counsellor for a catch up session.  She will now move on to cbt to look st my negative thinking patterns .  Our chat yesterday was a bit strained.  Every time I mentioned the event ( hyserectomy leading to perforated bowel leading to fistula ) she stopped me and more or else told me there is no point going over the same ground all the time.  It's pointless, it's happened and noth7ng can be done.  I did find this a bit harsh but I suppose she is right.  But from my perspective surely that's part of the problem, my inability to accept what has happened  , she said I had no choice - I could stay stuck wasting my life or find new things to twke me away from these thoughts.  She said it seemed I had almost become the problem and that's all I was about.  It was quite harsh.  Maybe that's the point, she said no point in her sympathising or listening as she knows what's happened so it will change nothing.
I start cbt next week. 
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Robin

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2018, 05:42:09 PM »

That does sound harsh groundhog. Almost as if by not mentioning it it will have "worked". But if it's still in your head sometimes then surely it should be ok to say so. I really don't understand the way your therapist has responded to you but then I don't know how these things work. I hope the CBT has a good outcome for you. You've been through so much

Robin
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CLKD

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2018, 06:48:52 PM »

It is harsh.  Because it isn't what you wanted to hear.  One therapist asked me why I felt I was so important that people would be watching me ...... I was so angry but she was correct.

You have become your surgery and bad outcome.  Understandably. It's in your head the whole while.  Eventually you should, by talking it through and taking on board what the Therapist suggests as coping strategies, allow it 10 mins. thought every day.    It is to enable you to accept and move on.

Otherwise?
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groundhog

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2018, 07:46:21 PM »

Yes I know CLKD.  I think it's hard though moving on with this leaky horrible abdomen and a body that looks so mutilated yet with clothes on , hair done, make up - everyone says I look great !
But I don't feel great, sometimes o feel ok, sometimes I feel rubbish. Plus it changes all the time.
I've been on antibiotics so I've been better but I worry about taking them as I know the damage they cause.
But then how long have I been banging on about this, it's almost 4 years ladies. 

She says she has experience of surgery going badly wrong, not her personally but someone close.   The doctors will close ranks, clam up - I feel that, I feel invisible, I feel they'd be glad if I got run over by a bus. 
She says if I complained then lessons would be learnt and nothing would change.  Except it would be ‘known' I'd complained. 
Blooming heck, I feel more confused than ever!
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 07:53:55 PM by groundhog »
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dangermouse

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2018, 08:00:29 PM »

Robin - As Groundhog says, yes each trauma can be dealt with and sometimes a golden thread is found and then that is worked on instead. It's really about allowing the subconscious to let out all its stored key thoughts in order to find any overriding ones that are holding you back.

Groundhog - It's about accepting your current physical situation as you cannot change it but you can change your perception of it and, perhaps, even forgiving any mistakes you believe may have been made (including blaming yourself for agreeing to the surgery) so you're not holding onto the anger and frustration. It's about looking forward in your new body and new life and not back at your old one. We all have to do this on a micro level in terms of general ageing too and some people have terrible accidents and begin a new life in a wheelchair or blind etc. It's all about adaption and one of the keys to happiness is being flexible with what may change for us in the future.
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Robin

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Re: EMDR
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2018, 08:08:44 PM »

Thanks dangermouse. It's something I've been considering but wasn't sure it was appropriate for my situation. It does sound as though it might be.

Wishing you well groundhog. I hope it brings you peace

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