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Author Topic: The point of this specific thread  (Read 24305 times)

Ju Ju

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2015, 11:32:27 AM »

I thought the idea of having an alternative therapy section was to share experiences, good and bad. But having read some of the posts on this thread, I'm not so sure.

It is not either HRT or alternative therapies. They can compliment each other. I can to HRT very late in the day. My gynaecologist recommends supplements alongside for symptoms.

I have received some wonderful support from a lot of members of this forum, some with scientific knowledge, some who are lovely, kind, supportive people. People who I feel it a privilege to have 'met' virtually.

The tone of this thread saddens me. There are lots of 'right'  ways to be. We are all different, with different needs and yet, we can support each other. Be kind.

 We have seen the consequences of people who desperately need to feel they are right and feel others who feel differently do not have the right to even live. You do not have to agree, but just be respectful and kind.
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Joyce

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2015, 11:39:58 AM »


 A lot of effort was obviously made to get the alternative section started yet we still have threads like this arguing about it which, in my opinion, is a bit pointless. I'm quite worried about posting on anything nowadays.

Taz  :-\

I'm worried about posting too Taz, in case I get shot down in flames. Makes the whole idea of the forum a bit pointless. I asked for a truce on MM. I think we still need one.  :)

As Ju Ju says " Just be respectful and kind."
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Taz2

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2015, 12:04:19 PM »

I hadn't seen that comment. I think a lot of the time we are all rushing and trying to put a comment as quickly as possible which can come out really abrupt and not helpful - I know that I've done this before trying to get ready for work with one eye on the clock and the other on the forum. It's probably that we are never actually "through" menopause as the oestrogen carries on depleting for the rest of our lives so things like vaginal dryness and tiredness can continue to worsen but hot flushes can stop and mood swings should get better too as we get further into menopause. Of course some women never get these symptoms anyway. I've found my symptoms are continuing to increase now I have reached my sixties which I, in my blissful ignorance in my fifties, didn't think would happen.

Taz x  :)

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Autumn

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2015, 12:43:45 PM »

I've found, from trying a vast array of more natural help, that some really do work for me and others don't, in the same way that things that didn't work for me might work for others!
This is the whole point. We are all so individual and will respond differently and need different help.

Reiki, reflexology, acupuncture and homeopathy are all really worth trying as one - or all! - will probably help in some way. (Reiki in particular is always worth having!) A lot of things do depend on your practitioner too, so go to someone who has been recommended if possible.

Many are helped by black cohosh, red clover, sage etc...they didn't help me but I would still tell people to try them.

After trying endless things I've found that Organic Moringa, Serrapeptase, Floradix iron and evening primrose and starflower oil have been the best for me, along with Reiki and reflexology. :)
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Limpy

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2015, 01:28:13 PM »


Many are helped by black cohosh, red clover, sage etc...they didn't help me but I would still tell people to try them.


These were recommended to me by an lady doctor at a family planning clinic which I attended having come off the BCP at 54. I didn't try them in the end, there didn't seem to be a lot of knowledge available locally, it was pre my MM days  ::)

I have tried reflexology when I was 45 (and with the benefit of hindsight) well into peri  ::)
It helped a lot.
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Hurdity

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2015, 07:18:00 PM »

I just thought this was worth mentioning.

One of our members specifically requested Dr Currie for an alternatives thread where women who could not, or did not want to take take HRT could come and comfortably discuss alternative therapies.

Dr Currie very kindly agreed to this ....so we have what we really wanted.

I think it's probably being lost in translation.

I really don't want this to become an argument but it would seem that some of our posters are still not able to discuss things freely without the sceptics putting views forward.

Surely the point is an open discussion ...but between the members who are interested in treatements other than the conventional.
The rest of the forum is for the other health discussions ....ie ....not alternatives

Perhaps I have got this wrong and then I appologise but I really think the point is being missed.....or ignored.

I could be wrong though...in that case I'm really sorry.

Honeybun
X

Heavens you've all been busy this weekend  ;D

"I really don't want this to become an argument but it would seem that some of our posters are still not able to discuss things freely without the sceptics putting views forward."

Referring to this specific point - which posters do you mean? - You and Grangravy who made the first two comments about the magnet?  Grangravy said this: "Just been reading that Belinda Carlisle used a ladycare magnet.". That was a comment - a statement of fact - which personally I felt did not merit a response, and would have ignored (as most of us did to last week's comment by Grangravy about another celeb and prog cream - another statement of fact rather than a judgement or opinion - no argument there) but honeybun - you then made a comment expressing your view - which you have expressed before - and because you made a judgement about the wretched magnet - which you've a right to do - that did merit a response - which I've a right to do too, as have others!!!!

If the purpose of your comment Grangravy was to cause controversy - by just dropping in a comment about a "remedy" that causes disgreement - then you were successful. By the way Grangravy – you have spent time putting your views on this thread, but I spent 30 mins of my time researching and searching for information on Friday to try to help you personally on the thread you started in the All Things Menopause – which I thought was a genuine question on your part,  which I don't think you've even read, but you seem to prefer to spend your time having arguments about magnets and the "Alternatives Section" than responding to that.   :(

Incidentally if the article was posted by Menopause Matters - then as Taz says, Dr Currie herself was quoted in the article here: "  “Some experts such as Dr Currie are more sceptical. "I know of no scientific reason why LadyCare should work," she cautions. "But if someone feels it works for them, then that's fine." ". which was omitted from Grangravy's comment. Those of us who are "sceptics" are so because of the lack of scientific evidence.

Anyway given that placebo is powerful (which I did mention in my comment) –  if anyone wants to try a magnet - then go and buy a cheap one from a diy store and pop it into your knickers as Brenda C suggests – but it isn't necessary to have a pretty pink special “Ladycare” one in a drawstring pouch ( btw I've no idea what they actually look like and how they are marketed – but I presume there will be some sort of special lady thing - and they certainly don't need to cost £30!!!!). !!!!! Personally I hate the fact that companies are cashing in on our insecurities and symptoms at a time like this. As with all such therpies and treatments, women have a right to know something objective about the therapy they are buying, other than the marketing blurb intended to sell it.

I'm going to do another separate post about this thread in general as well...

Hurdity x



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Hurdity

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2015, 07:43:53 PM »

From what some of you are saying or implying it looks like you want a banner over the entrance to this board along the lines of:

“ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE – THOU MAYEST ONLY DO SO IF THOU ART BELIEVERS”  ;D

This site was founded and is managed by a leading gynaecologist Dr Currie, who is chair of the British Menopause Society and therefore everything written on it is evidence based and underpinned by science – even (most of) the Alternatives Section. The forum forms a part of this site and as I've said before - of course science & medicine provides the foundation - GPs refer women to this site and the forum.

Also what does anyone mean by alternatives to HRT? As has been discussed many times and is evident from the information on this main site, alternatives to HRT include prescribable medication such as SSRI's, Clonidine etc,  herbal remedies eg Black Cohosh, relaxation therapies such as massage, lifestyle and diet including vitamin and other supplements  (although these aren't really alternatives as we should all be attending to this – so more general health), behavioural techniques such as CBT, and physical aids such as wool duvets and fans.

This section was never intended as an exclusive club for those who don't want to use HRT to post without input from anyone else but it is sad that even after the section has started you continue to bring out the same arguments - effectively trying to prevent certain comments from being made.  It is for anyone and everyone who has something relevant to say on any aspects of the subjects above, which includes scientific evidence as well as personal experiences. Whoever said it wasn't?

As I've said before, in this context personal experiences are of course interesting –  we all bring some of these to the forum - but no amount of personal experience can tell you if something is going to work for you – which is where medical/scientific evidence from trials come in. You can't ban comments about this - that's absurd!  I'm sure there are other forums out there where science goes out of the window ( are there?) but not on this site!!! Of course I'm talking about commercially available medical type treatments for menopause and its symptoms not things like fans or wool duvets which are of course very helpful ideas - and don't need scientific evidence!

So if you say we are talking about migraine treatments for example – women will post about their experiences of different products and ask what worked and what didn't – but from the starting point that trials have independently shown that they have statistically been proven to work. Because they won't work 100% for all individuals – this is where personal experiences come in and especially in relation to side effects etc. This can be very reassuring. The same with different HRT types.

However if we are talking about say an alternative - herbal treatment where there is no or insufficient independent evidence of its efficacy - then it might work and it might not – but here the personal experiences are just that and don't constitute evidence eg 10 people on here say the magnet worked so it must do – great I'll go and buy one. That is why we have science/evidence based medicine otherwise it would be a free for all.  If someone posts - have you tried this or does it work, then it is perfectly reasonable for someone else to post information about trials. Anyone who provides such information (in addition to those providing personal experience positive and negative) is not giving an opinion – it is evidence – or pointing to lack of it

It is insulting to the majority of posters to suggest that everything anyone posts in this section which is contrary to whatever remedy or item being suggested, is preachy or pushy is saying that everyone should use HRT. I don't think I've read anyone saying that anywhere.

And I agree with Taz and others – it really does sound like an us and them – the board is here so the arguments should stop!

No-one is chastising anyone about beliefs, but belief has no place in science – the two are mutually exclusive. Belief may lead to the placebo effect (but not always) – which as agreed is powerful and fine (to a point where there can be no serious adverse health consequences), but it has nothing to do with evidence and never will.

If you read the posts by those of us who may disagree with some of the alternative remedies - this is either personal opinion or evidence based but as far as I recall comments are always respectful and kind, or straight matter of fact - as Ju Ju entreats us to be. I don't see why this argument has to continue, and go over the same ground again and again, except to try to intimidate some of us into not posting on here  ???.

Hurdity x

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honeybun

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2015, 07:58:29 PM »

Oh heck.

I did get to the end  :-\.  Kind of.


Not even sure what to say.....speechless for once.

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Limpy

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2015, 07:59:10 PM »

Hurdity - You know lots and your attention to the NICE Guidelines has been so so helpful
on MM. However you did post "Aaaaagh! Not that again! Grangravy" on the Ladycare magnet topic. It seemed dismissive, possibly even a bit contemptuous. OK - we don't always agree with what's said but there are ways of phrasing disagreement.

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Dana

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2015, 08:37:22 PM »

Of course everyone should be able to say whether a therapy worked for them or not.

But to ask about something alternative and to be told not to waste your money or just to take HRT, kind of defeats the purpose of having a purely alternatives thread.

That is for the rest of the forum.

Maybe I have got this very wrong but I'm beginning to wonder what the point is to be honest.


And I am calm thanks  ;)


Honeyb
x

...but this is the problem. It comes down to a very fine line between someone being able to post their experiences and opinions, and other people over-reacting because they view that person as being a "skeptic, belittling and ridiculing". Why can't someone say "don't waste your money", if that's been their personal experience with it?

Personally speaking, I have nothing good to say about the alternative naturopathic treatments for menopause, because I've done it. I spent 3 months of my life and $3000 of my money trying it, and it made everything worse. The alternative industry makes a hell of a lot of money out of women, mostly by scaring them about conventional treatments for menopause, and a lot of women will waste a lot of money trying them - and that upsets me. Yet I get the distinct impression that those comments aren't welcome in this section because it's just seen as negative.

This is the problem. I spent a very long time trying a lot of hrt products, which did nothing except cause horrible side effects and make me feel worse. That is both my opinion and fact.

What if I expressed that opinion every single time someone asked a question about an hrt product, and I added, "the hrt industry makes billions from women, mostly through the scare stories of what will happen if women don't use their products, and a lot of women will waste years of their life trying one hrt after another which might not work and may cause horrible side effects, but if they want to go ahead and waste years of their life suffering that's up to them".

If that is my personal opinion (and I am not saying it is), does it help anyone if I say it? Does it sound like I'm saying that women who won't listen to me are stupid, or that I know better than everyone else? Would it offend many women who are trying hrt?

Yes, it's everyone's right to have an opinion, but ask yourself this;

1. Is your opinion more important than allowing every lady going through the menopause to choose her own way?

2. Does any member of this forum have the right to chastise someone else for believing in something, just because they themselves don't?

It's Sunday, and many people will be going to church. Do I have the right to tell them not to waste their time because it's all a load of rubbish?  :-\ Now do you get my point?

Well in actual fact, this is the only thread that I have posted on since this new section was started, and I only posted what I did because there was a relevant discussion going on. Frankly I'm now scared to post in this section at all, because I know that I would probably be receiving similar responses to what I'm receiving now, simply because I am voicing my personal opinion. No doubt someone will think I'm being "pushy or preachy, causing an offence". It's ironic those who advocate alternative treatments make that complaint about other sections of the forum, yet exactly the same attitude is starting to creep in here.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 08:46:32 PM by Dana »
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honeybun

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2015, 08:48:40 PM »

Sometimes I really wonder why admin does not do something about the way the forum is going.

It's really sad that we are being lectured.

Peace everyone.
As I said when I started this...I don't want to cause any arguments .....but neither do I appreciate being lectured.
It reminds me of school.  We had a head girl there too.


Can we please just move on with a bit more respect.


Honeybun
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Dana

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2015, 08:53:52 PM »

Dana, it is how you express your point of view, that is important.

If it comes across as pushy or preachy, it may well cause offence.

If I was that way on an HRT thread there would be a riot.

So have I been "pushy or preachy". Have I caused "offence"? Have I done anything other than giving my own personal experience?  Or is it simply because I might be saying something that others may not agree with. I guess that's the real question isn't it? Respect is a two way street.

There are lots of things wrong with HRT. Being someone who struggles with any kind of progestogen, and the possibility of having periods well into my 60s, I would love to get to a point where I didn't have to use it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 08:56:44 PM by Dana »
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Dana

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2015, 10:09:49 PM »

Sorry Dana, I have no wish to cause anybody offence and I am not going to argue with you.

Sadly, however you have gone a long way to proving my point. ???

Honestly, I'm confused. How have I gone a "long way to proving your point"? You can't make a comment like that and then just walk away.

Where have I been preachy or offensive? I have not targeted any other person's opinions or beliefs. I have not belittled anything anyone has said. I have not told anyone they must not try a certain thing. All I have done is stated my own personal opinions about my experiences with alternative therapies, and what I see happening on this thread. Sorry if you don't agree with what I say, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to say it. Unfortunately what you have done is only cemented my feelings about not being welcome on this thread, and not being able to express my opinions without someone making a passive aggressive comment. I knew from the start that my opinions would not be welcome here, and that's why I was very reluctant to post, and I've been proven right.

Something that needs to said, and no doubt I'll be shouted down, but I honestly have to wonder why those who are in favour of or interested in alternative treatments actually want to post on MM, and have their own section no less. This is a site that has been started by a doctor, so it's only logical that most of the information is going to be pointed in that direction. It is very apparent that this is a forum where the majority of people appear to be using some form of medical intervention for menopause. Surely those who want to talk about alternative treatments would get a lot more information, and better support and advice from the hundreds/thousands of alternative sites that I'm sure must be around.

Now I will say quite categorically that everyone has a right to post whatever they want on MM, and everyone has a right to an opinion, be it about HRT or alternatives, but quite honestly if I was interested in medical information for menopause I would not be going to a forum that was heavily into alternative treatments and which had been started by a herbalist. What kind of reception do you think I would get there if I started posting pro-HRT stuff - honestly? I think it has been incredibly generous of Dr Currie to allow a totally separate section, but now it appears it's going to turn into an exclusive club, because anyone who disagrees with anything is going to be too scared to post anything at all.

Anyway, like I said, I'm sure I'm now going to be shouted down for expressing that opinion too........
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honeybun

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2015, 10:22:44 PM »

As it was me that began this topic I am going to ask the moderator to remove it as we are getting nowhere very fast.
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Taz2

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Re: The point of this specific thread
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2015, 10:23:59 PM »

This is in honeybun's first post at the top of this thread

"Surely the point is an open discussion ...but between the members who are interested in treatements other than the conventional"

Does that help clear anything up?  It's for open discussion but only between members who are not on HRT? Clarification would be really helpful. Will bow out now.

Taz x  :D

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