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Author Topic: utrogestan/estrogel support group  (Read 711145 times)

Cassie

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1350 on: September 30, 2018, 09:12:20 AM »

I take the 100mg vaginally for 12 days, the bleed starts anything from 4 to 7 days after stopping it varies with me. :-\
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SueLW

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1351 on: September 30, 2018, 11:52:49 AM »

I'm doing vaginally every other day and I like it.  I tried to do it every day but felt zapped.  Every other day and I feel fine on it.  Still likely to have a light spotting towards the evening of the day I'm due to insert, I'm hoping that will settle.  I am using 3 pumps of Estrogel a day, spaced 2 am and 1 pm.  I suspect I might need to move up to 4 pumps though, still experiencing swings so my own hormones are still rising and falling and 3 pumps isn't covering it completely.  But I'm happy with the Utrogestan like this.
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Juliet

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1352 on: September 30, 2018, 04:59:41 PM »

Thanks Cassie and Sue for your experiences. I don't think the utrogestan made me feel zapped, but the tetchiness and anger seemed to ramp up, however, I still don't know how much of this is just me and mid-life and general world shittiness. My mood really dipped in the summer of 2016 when my periods became very erratic and far apart, but we also voted out of the EU and all I have seen since is an increase in hate and division everywhere :o  :(



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SueLW

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1353 on: September 30, 2018, 05:45:27 PM »

I agree with you entirely.  Brexit and menopause don't go well together. 

In my case my business of over 10 years is unlikely to survive us leaving the EU so I've had 2 years of horrible stress about it, on top of menopause from hell, developing hypothyroidism and the realisation that I probably won't be able to pay my mortgage off or retire!

it's not done me good.
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Mary G

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1354 on: September 30, 2018, 07:10:40 PM »

Completely agree with both of you, I'm the Brexit hater in chief!   It's going to screw ours lives up too and we are going to have to take life changing action for our business.
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SueLW

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1355 on: September 30, 2018, 07:36:26 PM »

Sorry to hear that Mary.  It's so hard to cope with.  Screwing up our own businesses through our own mistakes is one thing.  But mostly we don't do that.  Having it forced on us...  I can't describe it.  My future used to look possible, now it doesn't.  I have no way to pay for my house if my business fails.  And as I rely on exporting to the EU as well as UK sales and all my stock is via America, I'm doubly screwed.

Menopause and hypothyroidism cause brain fog so that on top has made my life miserable for 2 years and no let up in sight from the powers that be.  At least the other causes might get resolved soon.
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Hurdity

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1356 on: September 30, 2018, 07:47:05 PM »

I'm doing vaginally every other day and I like it.  I tried to do it every day but felt zapped.  Every other day and I feel fine on it.  Still likely to have a light spotting towards the evening of the day I'm due to insert, I'm hoping that will settle.  I am using 3 pumps of Estrogel a day, spaced 2 am and 1 pm.  I suspect I might need to move up to 4 pumps though, still experiencing swings so my own hormones are still rising and falling and 3 pumps isn't covering it completely.  But I'm happy with the Utrogestan like this.

It may be that on higher doses of oestrogen that 100mg alternate days used vaginally may not quite be sufficient to protect the womb - but sounds like you will be monitoring it? I can't remember if your doc is agreeing to scan you  on this regime just to keep an eye on things? It's all such a compromise isn't it - trying to balance wanting/needing higher oestrogen levels with getting sufficient of the dreaded prog?! Must be a right pain also juggling a thyroid condition too!

Hurdity x
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SueLW

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1357 on: September 30, 2018, 08:03:41 PM »

I have switched doctors to Dr Louise Newson.  She said I can use 4 pumps of gel a day if I wish (currently on 3) and 100 Levo every other night will be fine.  She said 100 vaginally every other day is the same equivalence as 100 orally every day, and is better for the womb lining because of it's proximity.

Before I started on the gel, I had a scan of my own in July and my lining was 2mm, no problems at all in there.  I will probably arrange an annual scan myself just to make sure.  I used the Mother Care scanning service and was so impressed with it I don't think I'll even ask my GP for a hospital scan ever again.  If Dr Louise's new clinic in Stratford offers scans this time next year then I will see which option is cheaper and go with that.

Thyroid has been a nightmare because I was messed around so much.  I'm not having that again.  I know what I need to do and how to do it so once again I order all my own blood tests (because NHS just won't test free T3 the active hormone) and just go to the GP, give them a copy and tell them I want a raise by 25mcg a day.  If they decide to say I can't have a raise at some point and I haven't got my bloods into the range I want and still don't feel right, I will just self treat.  I've had it with them.  They stood by and let 6 years of my life go down the drain with no help at all.  I was tall, slim, fit and extremely capable of hard physical and mental labour and they didn't think something was wrong as I turned into a fat whale of an exhausted, crying, foggy, incapable woman in front of their very eyes.  All I ever got was "you must loose weight" and "you must exercise".  And finally "the elephant in the room (other than me) is menopause.  You need HRT but I don't know much about it".  That drove me to the London clinics because that was all I could find.  I'm so pleased Dr Louise has opened up within an hours drive of me.  No more whole days travelling and getting more of the same "you must loose weight and exercise" stuff.  When I saw Louise I asked her not to tell me I must loose weight or exercise because I couldn't take it anymore.  She said "you can't loose weight while your hormones are out of balance like this".  I fell in love with her at that moment I think.

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Ladybt28

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1358 on: September 30, 2018, 10:41:26 PM »

SueLW - Dr Newson sounds loverly!!  I have to go to the Dr's tomorrow because when I had my regular blood pressure check I told the nurse that when the GP upped my Amlodipine to 10mg from 5mg + Lorsartan I started getting very swollen ankles and a weird type of pink flushing on my lower legs when I was on my feet for more than an hour!  She said it was common with Amlodipine blood pressure meds and as my blood pressure was fine and had been ok on the Amol+lorsartan (I wish these people could agree on something) I should get it changed back! - anyway I digress.  What I want to say is...


I was on 1.25 premarin+5mg Provera continous - some of you may remember but after I posted (Screaming inside) I was advised here to drop my provera and see what happened.  Well it worked I started to feel better, I had energy, I could sleep better, my head worked - my family said I seemed much better and I carried on with the Premarin only for about 17 day and that terrible doom and raging anxiety went away - but I have womb so I knew I couldnt continue without progesterone and I was too terrified (and I dont scare easy) to go back on the Provera - so I spoke to the meno clinic and got my prescription changed because quite a lot of people here seem to get along very well with oestrogel (which I though could be more flexible in dose than patches or pills) and utrogestan and to try it on a cycle. So... (here comes the point of all this drival...)

I have just finished one complete month 3 pumps and the 12 day Utro cycle (taken vaginally), I thought I would start at the right prescription to see what happened so I could report to the dr and then they wouldnt shout at me for doing something different. BUT..

But on starting the gell I lost that "this feels normal and OK feeling" (I could bearly remember normal but it felt like it??) so I though it might take a while to kick in but 2nd week still the same.  Last few days of the Utro bit weepy as well as the first 2 weeks "flat" feeling.  Its now 4 days after last Utro and maybe starting to bleed - just a bit mucky (sorry for the accurate description).

Should I have got that Ok feeling back by now if the oestrogel was going to work for me or do I have to keep going and it will all come right after month 2 and into 3.  I am planning to do 3 months but....  The Utro seems to be ok for me and the premarin seemed to give me that OK feeling - it was the Provera that seemed to be the problem.
Is it possible to use Premarin and Utro together or is it just not something a Dr would prescribe?  I did have in my mind that the premarin and provera might be ok on a cycle but dropping the provera made such a difference and it seemed to be the bad guy, I really dont want to have to add it into any mix?  So ladies:

Flat (CKLD as said depressed - she right!) Utro ok - premarin seemed ok on its own - which way could this be going - cos I sure as hell dont know.  See if I could have premarin on its own - that was the best 17 days I've had in 15 years!
 
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SueLW

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1359 on: October 01, 2018, 12:20:07 AM »

Hi

I'm sorry you are struggling with it.  I don't know if a doctor would prescribe Premarin and Utrogestan.  I can't see why not.  But I don't know anything about Premarin.  Isn't that the old fashioned one?  If so, you would be better off on Estrogel if you can find your dose because it's body identical and going though the skin means less liver stress.  But the dosing from a tablet to a gel will be very different.  When you swallow a tablet a lot of it gets lost to the digestive processes.

I think you are asking how you should proceed.  I'm not a doctor or course, just a patient feeling her way through this and finally starting to feel a bit better as a result of my recent changes.

If you feel flat then you are probably short of oestrogen.  Too much is more likely to make you feel anxious and jittery.  Flat and dull is likely to not be enough.  So the tablet must have been pretty well absorbed in your system.  Why don't you try using 4 pumps of gel a day (none of the menopause specialists seem to think that's too much at all, in fact one of them, can't remember who, says if you are going to do it, do it properly and get some benefit).  Apply 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening so that you don't get a big hit in one part of the day.  Your levels should be more stable if you split the dose.  See how you feel.  Do this now, when you are in the non-Utrogestan phase so that you can be sure how you feel is from the Estrogel.  We all absorb differently hence why some women need 2 pumps others 4 or even more.

You should tell quite quickly if you feel better or worse from adding in that 4th dose.  Probably within a week, certainly within 2 weeks.  If you feel worse, jittery, anxious, on edge, snappy etc. it's perhaps too much and then you can reduce back to 3 pumps but keep the split between morning and evening.  Your levels will come down and you will either feel like you do now or a bit better.  If you end up feeling like you do now, drop to 2 pumps a day.  And wait and see how you feel on the lower dose.

Being hypothyroid, I've learned over the years that when I feel bad, I have to consider I may need to increase my dose.  But I also must remember that too much feels just as bad as too little and sometimes I might need to reduce my dose.  It must always be there at the back of our minds.  More might do the trick, but if it doesn't, try the other way.  With Estrogel it's really easy and the changes settle very quickly.  It's a bugger with thyroid meds as the slightest change takes 6 long weeks before it has it's full effect!

Chances are, you need a little more and that should also help you to not feel down the next Utrogestan cycle.  As soon as I upped my dose of gel from 1 to 2 pumps in the first few weeks, I sat down and painted my toe nails.  I hadn't done it all summer! So that gel is pretty quick.  But after a week or thereabouts I felt tired again and so added in the 3rd pump.  Good luck!
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Ladybt28

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1360 on: October 01, 2018, 08:52:57 AM »

Thanks SueLW - yes Premarin is the old fashioned one and I suppose it was part of the reason I went to oestrogel after reading about bio-identicals here.  I suppose I phrased what I wrote wrongly - I know people here are not Dr's but to be honest, I am more likely to get answers from people on the forum which will point me in the right direction and somehow there is usually a common opinion -rather than 5 mins with a GP who says "I don't really know much about it"!! I know my GP is going to ask me how I'm getting on today and I dont really know what to tell her - if I tell the truth - that I am depressed she is likely to shove anti-depressants at me, and I'm not taking those again - they never worked in the years before - it's definitely hormonal.

The last few days I have been splitting the dose because I read a post here - 1.5 in the morning and same in the evening - maybe I havent been doing it long enough and I think I will up it to 2 + 2 for these weeks before the utrogestan as you say.
One of the things that drew me to the gel was that I could play around with the dose although I have'nt noticed any change from going up to 3 pumps from 2 a day which is what the GP prescribed to start with.  So I will up the dose for a week and try to be patient.
The only thing which concerns me is that I have read here some people don't absorb the gel very well.  I was obviously getting good absorption with the Premarin.  My GP is no help she always asks "what shall we try next?" - like I should know! so I suppose I am trying to jump the gun in case 4 pumps dont work or the gel doesn't work for me at all?  There has to be an answer.  I feel a bit disappointed because I got a very brief glimpse of "normal" but now its gone again.  That was the first time in years that I actually said outloud more than one "I feel ok today"  :(



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Hurdity

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1361 on: October 02, 2018, 04:24:40 PM »

The horse oestrogens do seem to behave differently than our own bio-identical estradiol, in some women - it seems to be one of those that woman love or hate. From memory they do have a higher affinity for oestrogen receptors than estradiol - and you were on a high dose at 1.25 mg.

Can you remind us how old you are and how long since meno and how long on HRT?

If you are still young and not been on HRT that long then no reason not to take Premarin and Utrogestan - but as SueLW says this would then be all oral HRT. If you have no other risk factors (for stroke etc) then your doc might be happy to prescribe it past 60 as well. If you have high BMI ( and I think other conditions like diabetes) then transdermal is preferred. Also oral HRT (especially equine) can depress libido due to increase in a substance known as Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) which binds free testosterone.

Yes there do seem to be some women who don't absorb gel well - but hard to say isn't it? I used Sandrena but it didn't work for me probably because I didn't match the dose with patches and at my age I didn't want to start fiddling about when patches worked very well.

Actually I've just looked back at your other post and I see you are being treated for high blood pressure? That being the case then best to stay with transdermal if you can persevere:

https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/atoz.php#GlossH

Hypertension
Blood pressure should be measured and, if high, should be controlled prior to starting HRT. Blood pressure measurement should be repeated 3 months after starting HRT and is then usually checked at annual review. There is a very small risk of conjugated equine estrogens causing a rise in blood pressure which resolves on cessation of treatment. In the presence of controlled hypertension, HRT is unlikely to worsen control; some recommend using transdermal (patch or gel) HRT.
Sage should be used with caution if hypertensive and St.John's Wort should be used with caution if taking antihypertensive therapy.

Hope this helps.

Hurdity x
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Ladybt28

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1362 on: October 02, 2018, 11:02:37 PM »

Hi Hurdity
I am 57 and GP says that she believes I am post meno  Difficult to tell because I went on HRT during peri at about 47 if I remember. I was put on Prempak C and just took it until it was discontinued. There were problems but I didn't know they were problems like I do now.  You will see from other posts I have discovered I have suffered hormonal depression and hormonal problems for about 40 years but I didn't really know this was the case until I got on here and when a lot of messing about with the types of HRT started.  No doctor ever put 2+2 together for my problems but hey ho! (she says through gritted teeth with steam coming out of her ears!!)

No high BMI, only blood pressure meds which she changed for me when I went to see her on Monday. She has put me on Lercanidipine (I was on amlodipine and she knew all about the ankle swelling it was causing pretty much before I finished my sentence) I have cholesterol of 5 but bad CL is 2. My blood pressure has been controlled for years - no stroke or cardiac risk factors.  All I can say is that when I had the Premarin for 2 weeks on its own (having dropped the provera following advice on here after I posted "screaming inside") it was the best I had felt in years.

My GP's mood can vary considerably depending on what side of the bed she got out of (if early morning appt) or the kind of day she's had if it is later  :)  on Monday she was grand and we had a good chat.  I promised to stick with the gel/utrog for at least 3 months but she did say she could see no reason why I couldn't use Premarin with utro if the gel/utro fails to settle and I cant get rid of the "flat" feeling and low energy.  Mind you I have in my mind to ask the meno clinic when I get my review about testosterone.  I get the feeling more and more there is a missing element from what I read here.  For some women oestrogen and progesterone don't always work efficiently on their own.  Although you say about Libido being a problem on Premarin I don't remember that part of it although I wasn't keeping a diary.  If I remember back to July sex was back on agenda and not too much of a problem.  Your right Hurdity it's always so hard to be definite about whats going on.
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foreign body

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1363 on: October 17, 2018, 01:23:59 PM »

as we are all different and our bodies react differently to hormones, i just wanted to give you an update. A month ago i decided to increase both estrogel and utrogestan dosage, going up to three pumps of estrogel a day, and 9 days of utrogestan (vaginally) a month. And finally i had a bleed, urrah!
Before i was on two pumps a day and seven days of utrogestan, which worked fine for a few years but then menopausal symptoms started to reappear. No more bleeding after the utro cycle, hot flushes were back, i was losing my hair, my skin had become drier, i lost my libido and my womb lining was only 2mm.  Now i am happy to report that all these symptoms have disappeared :) what a difference a pump makes! 
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Hurdity

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Re: utrogestan/estrogel support group
« Reply #1364 on: October 17, 2018, 07:08:34 PM »

Thanks for the update foreign body. Assuming you are post-menopausal then it sounds like you really weren't absorbing the oestrogen from two pumps. It is amazing how much women vary with the gel and absorption. Glad you're feeling better! :)

Hurdity x
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