Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: LadyCC on June 21, 2022, 07:45:51 AM
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Hi all
So I am now apparently menopausal having not had a period for over a year. During that time I was unable to tolerate oestrogel as it gave me heightened oestrogen dominant symptoms. So working with my doctor, I just used progesterone and that was great for me.
Now that I am post menopausal my doctor said I need to introduce oestrogen again and I have been using the sandrena sachets. It's taken a couple of weeks but once again am experiencing oestrogen dominant symptoms.
Has anyone else experienced this?
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I have the same issue which is why I keep to the low dose possible to help with symptoms and not experience histamine and auto immune type symptoms.
You might want to supplement with Dhea and/or testosterone to help with this issue as then you can use very little estrogen. In fact some people don’t use any.
I was trialing this and doing ok but then got covid and everything went a bit haywire! X
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Hi Marchlove
I have not heard of that approach before. I have just been told that in addition to taking one Utrogestan Daily, I should now use progestogen cream which is better absorbed to offset this. Have you heard of this?
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No, I have not heard of people using both, but I suppose that’s a possibility x
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Hello lady cc.
Sorry, I cant help you, but I wonder if you'd be kind enough to share your journey with me?? Im 46 and currently trialing progesterone only as I believe I am estrogen dominant.
As a side - I'm guessing you're only trying estrogen as your doc says you should, not because you are symptomatic???
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Hello lady cc.
Sorry, I cant help you, but I wonder if you'd be kind enough to share your journey with me?? Im 46 and currently trialing progesterone only as I believe I am estrogen dominant.
As a side - I'm guessing you're only trying estrogen as your doc says you should, not because you are symptomatic???
Hi CrispyChick
Yes, you are right - that is the only reason why I am incorporating it. I think that there hasnt been enough done in the way of studies on progesterone alone over a prolonged period so maybe she wants to be safe though she did support the data that shows that taking it on its own for an interim period causes no issues.
I am actually going to speak to a holistic practitioner who specialises in menopause and womens hormones this evening. Unlike the Dr in question she has come across clients who cant tolerate oestrogen - lets see what she says!
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Oh Ladycc, do let us know what she says! X
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Quick update -
The holistic practitioner works with herbs and she says that she can prescribe them and I can take them alongside the HRT (she recommended reducing the amount of oestrogen gel to the minimum doseage when I wasnt initially experiencing the symptoms) and then over time, reducing the HRT until I only use the herbs.
This is of course a novel approach but if testimonials are to be believed on her profile, she has been very effective for women with all different hormonal issues. Its not cheap and I hesitate as over the years I have spent a lot of money on chasing cures for various hormonal issues to no avail. One thing that she said though which I think its true, any blood tesst is a snapshot in time and levels can fluctuate so whilst my levels might have been at menopausal levels on the day the bloods were drawn, that could be different on any other given day.
I have not used the sandrena today and already discomfort is easing. I will have one last ditch attempt at using it on reduced basis, so half 0.5 sachet but only when I get hold of progesterone cream and see how it goes.
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Interesting, I’m not at all versed in herbal medicine but I always feel the pull of it’s power, though have not used much at all.
The lowest estrogen to control certain symptoms is my current focus. Am trying to feel it rather than think, test or research it any further for now.
What message do I feel I’m getting from my body is the question I try and ask.
I read somewhere that hormone replacement therapy is an art form, how right they are! xx
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Wow. That's certainly a different approach.
Could you tell me how you got established on progesterone only??? Im assuming it worked. Utrogestan? I'm trying cream. Prog only.
There are plenty countries where they focus on progesterone only and even into and beyond menopause. It's such a shame you feel you need to change things that are working simply because your doc is not well versed in the regime. ???
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Wow. That's certainly a different approach.
Could you tell me how you got established on progesterone only??? Im assuming it worked. Utrogestan? I'm trying cream. Prog only.
There are plenty countries where they focus on progesterone only and even into and beyond menopause. It's such a shame you feel you need to change things that are working simply because your doc is not well versed in the regime. ???
It was the same doctor who is an integrated practitioner who gave the go ahead for progesterone only. This was after several failed attempts at re-introducing oestrogel at various doseages and tweaking utrogestan doseage too.
Utrogestan only has worked fine - I have even been able to manage weight loss which had alluded me for months with all the faffing with oestrogen. Thing is, I believe she is versed in the regime but I am guessing that as a registered GP she cant be seen to treat a patient for a prolonged period outside of the NICE guidelines perhaps. Anyway, second day off of it and discomfort is easing.
It looks like Sandrena is more concentrated than Oestrogel and 0.5 sachet is equivalent to 1 pump of Oestrogel. Even previously I was not tolerating the 1 pump so I am it looks like back to square one. I think my hormones are still fluctuating a lot and although my oestrogen levels are low, I feel that taking this gel means that my levels get higher than progesterone PDQ and hence oestrogen dominant symptoms.
it isnt food - after years of looking in to this I have tailored and clean diet and I do not have aerosols, etc and other things that would antagonise this around. Its definately the gel.
As I say, one more try with the additional progesterone cream and half sachet doseage and then thats it.
Do you have any information on the countries that are using progesterone only in to menopause and beyond?
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Brief update -
The discomfort still remains - I experienced this previously after stopping the oestrogel when last taking it. It is shocking really though that 3 days after stopping this, I am still having this cramping.
I think listening to my body is the right thing to do. For whatever reason oestrogen does not work well with me. Whilst on a lower doseage I didnt have this reaction I am now wondering whether it would happen over a matter of time anyway once the hormone had built up in my system.
I have gone back to my doctor and asked why, at this point in my life do I need to take it. Particularly as it isnt assisting with night sweats, frequent urination etc as I havent been having major issues with those on the utrogestan alone and certainly not post menopause. Ill see what she says
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Thanks for the update Ladycc
Very interesting xx
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Lady cc this is so interesting.
I really can't see why you are being forced into estrogen when you don't feel you need it. Is your doc uncomfortable with you taking only prog post meno... And what is the reason. Is your doctor happy with you adding in prog cream to try and balance the estrogen??? That goes against the views of most gp's :-\
So, I only have anecdotal evidence of people taking only prog in other countries. USA in particular, but I've definitely heard it is mentioned in parts of Europe. There is an estrogen dominance support thread group on fb. Big following - majority just take prog. Some add in a little estrogen post meno.
What dose utrogestan did you start at??? Did you find it easy to tolerate???
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Hi both
I just heard from my doctor. She understands my frustrations and has now said that there are people that dont tolerate oestrogen for reasons that are not understood where apparently there is the idea of it triggering histamine and histamine intolerance which is what you said @Marchlove.
She has also said that progesterone is often enough and very beneficial too for menopause symptoms although this is not current UK guidance, where HRT is defined as estrogen replacement therapy so this is no doubt why she mentioned that I should re-introduce it.
She said that levels will continue to drop but there are other things that can be used for the areas that might be impacted.
So for now just progesterone for me. And yes, It worked for me and I had no issues on that alone - 1 capsule per night. I also tried vaginally when I was initially prescribed that and oestrogel to try to up my intake of progesterone and offset the cramping I was getting which unbeknownst to me was exacerbated by the introduction of oestrogen gel. How about you @CrispyChick?
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Thank you LadyCC
I’m finding this very interesting so thank you for keeping us informed of your journey.
I seem to be in the bizarre position of being intolerant to both. Oestrogen yes for sure the histamine connection but why Progesterone?? I’m way into post menopause by the way.
Metabolism, detoxification issues are probably a player in this. But what is strange is that I didn’t have these issues in peri to any great extent.
It was only post when I tried to take hrt all these issues arose. I have not been on oral contraceptives for many years so I know that did not have an impact.
Just thought I’d give you an insight as to where I am, which is why I follow this thread with interest.
Well done for getting doctor to agree with your interpretation of your situation, your doctor sounds amazing! X
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Thank you LadyCC
I’m finding this very interesting so thank you for keeping us informed of your journey.
I seem to be in the bizarre position of being intolerant to both. Oestrogen yes for sure the histamine connection but why Progesterone?? I’m way into post menopause by the way.
Metabolism, detoxification issues are probably a player in this. But what is strange is that I didn’t have these issues in peri to any great extent.
It was only post when I tried to take hrt all these issues arose. I have not been on oral contraceptives for many years so I know that did not have an impact.
Just thought I’d give you an insight as to where I am, which is why I follow this thread with interest.
Well done for getting doctor to agree with your interpretation of your situation, your doctor sounds amazing! X
Hi Marchlove
Did you take HRT during perimenopause? That is when I started it but I had already had 18 months of symptoms by then. Then I introduced HRT and as I said in the previous message, this exacerbated my symptoms and with every increase of oestrogen, it intensified and I was told the 'hang in there' and that it would improve. Until of course it didnt. I stopped taking combined contraceptive pill 7 years ago.
Have you ever seen a nutritional therapist? If you suspect metabolism and detoxification it may be worth working with some kind of integrated therapist to prescribe you some supplements to do just that. I take a liver detox and NAC both of which are supposed to help with detoxification. This is amongst other supplements.
So have you tried both together and then progesterone only? - is that how you know you have intolerance? What are your symptoms? How long did you try before you decided not to continue on both?
Sorry for all the questions - I am interested in your journey too.
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Hi Ladycc
No I didn’t take anything during peri, sailed through really with just the odd hot flush.
I didn’t start Hrt until two years post menopause when I started getting irritable and dry skin. Combined oral, can’t remember the name. Then I got asthma (first time in my life) but didn’t make the connection and numerous uti’s with no doctor ever suggesting I take Vagifem etc so just numerous antibiotics.
So all in all poor medical treatment and the antibiotics obviously effected my gut health.
I worked with a very experienced nutritionist for a number of years and we worked out I have a sulphur intolerance due to a faulty gene so I cannot take supplements like NAC (gives me headaches) and many others including vitamin B6, so I take all my b vitamins separately.
I’ve just discovered though that I can tolerate high dose thiamine so I am using this with some success.
So yes I’ve tried them both separately. Estrogen gives me histamine/mast cells symptoms and anxiety and irritability, progesterone I get nausea, itchy skin, fatigue, depressed and irritable.
So I am now working with a new specialist where I am taking very low dose estrogen, low dose Dhea and the progesterone element is work in progress as trying out a long cycle for the first time.
I did at one point try OTC Dhea and Pregnenolone with some success and am tempted to return to that if this new treatment doesn’t work. Allowing the body to decide where it feels hormones are needed.
X
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Thanks for explaining lady cc.
So is it 100mg utrogestan you take? Did you find vaginally did indeed increase your absoption???
Well, I'm a sorry state. I'd love your input. Been suffering for 5 years. Awful symptoms, but not mainstream meno ones e.g sweats. So had so many tests... Nothing ever found. Finally I realise its hormonal. GP and meno clinic had me try every pill available. No use. Then finally hrt. The estrogen alone sent my symptoms off the scale and I felt poisoned.
I wish I had your doc.
I was forced to look elsewhere, so I'm now under a bhrt clinic who diagnosed low progesterone and testosterone. My estrogen is not high though - just normal. But I'm unbalanced due to low prog.
So... I've been trying to get on progesterone alone since Jan. It's been rough as hell. I get a lot of my info from the Internet and other people.
I'm intrigued by your story as I've struggled to get on with prog. It apparently upregulates your estrogen receptors when taken in small doses (they will have tunned down as a mechanism to deal with the higher estrogen balance). I 100% have experienced this. It is awful. All of my worst symptoms reignited. I've had to go through it as there is so much conflicting advice about dosage.
My clinic tell me start low. Ignites my estrogen. In the US many ladies use much higher doses, then there's lots of talk about physiological doses. So it's very hard. This has been made harder by the fact I've not got on well with the compounded bhrt cream - it made me very woozy. I've now bought onas and I tolerate it better and I think I'm actually absorbing it a lot better. But it's still early days for me avd I'm getting some side affects (see my post on nose pressure).
So, I'm intrigued you use 100mg utrogestan straight out, no probs. Interesting....
Can you tell me how long you've been on 100mg??? Do you take breaks from it??? Did you cycle through it when in peri???
This is soooo helpful to me. There are so few women on this forum taking only prog. I'm so impressed your doc has admitted it can be beneficial on its own and yes, as she says your estrogen may drop further and bring problems - try estrogen again then, or topical if it transpires as a VA issue.
I've the added problem of being in scotland where utrogestan is not even routinely available as part of HRT, never mind stand alone!!!!
Did you try an additional cream??? If so I'm keen to hear how you fejt that compared to the utrogestan??? Maybe I do need a higher dose of the cream that's suiting me better...
X
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Thanks for explaining lady cc.
So is it 100mg utrogestan you take? Did you find vaginally did indeed increase your absoption???
Well, I'm a sorry state. I'd love your input. Been suffering for 5 years. Awful symptoms, but not mainstream meno ones e.g sweats. So had so many tests... Nothing ever found. Finally I realise its hormonal. GP and meno clinic had me try every pill available. No use. Then finally hrt. The estrogen alone sent my symptoms off the scale and I felt poisoned.
I wish I had your doc.
I was forced to look elsewhere, so I'm now under a bhrt clinic who diagnosed low progesterone and testosterone. My estrogen is not high though - just normal. But I'm unbalanced due to low prog.
So... I've been trying to get on progesterone alone since Jan. It's been rough as hell. I get a lot of my info from the Internet and other people.
I'm intrigued by your story as I've struggled to get on with prog. It apparently upregulates your estrogen receptors when taken in small doses (they will have tunned down as a mechanism to deal with the higher estrogen balance). I 100% have experienced this. It is awful. All of my worst symptoms reignited. I've had to go through it as there is so much conflicting advice about dosage.
My clinic tell me start low. Ignites my estrogen. In the US many ladies use much higher doses, then there's lots of talk about physiological doses. So it's very hard. This has been made harder by the fact I've not got on well with the compounded bhrt cream - it made me very woozy. I've now bought onas and I tolerate it better and I think I'm actually absorbing it a lot better. But it's still early days for me avd I'm getting some side affects (see my post on nose pressure).
So, I'm intrigued you use 100mg utrogestan straight out, no probs. Interesting....
Can you tell me how long you've been on 100mg??? Do you take breaks from it??? Did you cycle through it when in peri???
This is soooo helpful to me. There are so few women on this forum taking only prog. I'm so impressed your doc has admitted it can be beneficial on its own and yes, as she says your estrogen may drop further and bring problems - try estrogen again then, or topical if it transpires as a VA issue.
I've the added problem of being in scotland where utrogestan is not even routinely available as part of HRT, never mind stand alone!!!!
Did you try an additional cream??? If so I'm keen to hear how you fejt that compared to the utrogestan??? Maybe I do need a higher dose of the cream that's suiting me better...
X
Hey CrispyChick
So to answer your questions:-
Yes it is 100mg - I found vaginally to be very messy and although absorptions may well have increased, the significant discomfort from using the oestrogel at the time outweighed that.
When I refer to Dr, she is an integrated practitioner who I found via one of the well known menopause clinics. I dont know the protocol on these sites but if there is a way I can PM you then very happy to share her details. She stopped working at the clinic and has branched out on her own. She is based in London but ive never been - all consultations over the phone.
When you say upregulates estrogen receptors are you saying it makes your own bodies oestrogen more present? What kind of symptoms did you get which were reignited by progesterone?
I also tried a compound hrt cream - the reaction I had from that was worse than either of these oestrogen gels. They both took a few days to start showing symptoms but with that bhrt, literally within 2 days I was climbing the walls the pain was sooo bad.
Initially I did take it cyclically but as the cramping was not going my practitioner at the time (different to this one now) told me to take it continually. No breaks from it. I have been on it since Aug 2019 as HRT with changes to whether cyclical and doseage of oestrogen up and down (and round the bend lol).
The doctor shared this article with me https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13697137.2018.1472567 - I havent read it through yet. She will of course be closely monitoring me and I will no doubt have to have more regular blood tests which I will cope with.
What I would say about the utrogestan... I will be honest and say I started being prescribed both oestrogel and utrogestan and of course used to use both but after a while I only requested repeat prescription for the latter and that is how I get it on its own.
Yes, availability of products is getting alarming isnt it - the utrogestan I have been prescribed is in a different colour packet with the guidance in another language. Im seeing everywhere horror stories of having to try alternative forms of HRT - its such a minefield getting the doseage right in the first place and to have to change it doesnt bear thinking about!
You know what, I purchased the extra progesterone cream but it hasnt arrived yet and I have actually not going to use it. I am at the moment trying to detox and get rid of what feels like the toxicity that is lingering in my body from the oestrogen. I will be having aloe vera juice to reduce the inflammation for a start. Ive never tried it before so lets see what happens there!
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Hi Ladycc
No I didn’t take anything during peri, sailed through really with just the odd hot flush.
I didn’t start Hrt until two years post menopause when I started getting irritable and dry skin. Combined oral, can’t remember the name. Then I got asthma (first time in my life) but didn’t make the connection and numerous uti’s with no doctor ever suggesting I take Vagifem etc so just numerous antibiotics.
So all in all poor medical treatment and the antibiotics obviously effected my gut health.
I worked with a very experienced nutritionist for a number of years and we worked out I have a sulphur intolerance due to a faulty gene so I cannot take supplements like NAC (gives me headaches) and many others including vitamin B6, so I take all my b vitamins separately.
I’ve just discovered though that I can tolerate high dose thiamine so I am using this with some success.
So yes I’ve tried them both separately. Estrogen gives me histamine/mast cells symptoms and anxiety and irritability, progesterone I get nausea, itchy skin, fatigue, depressed and irritable.
So I am now working with a new specialist where I am taking very low dose estrogen, low dose Dhea and the progesterone element is work in progress as trying out a long cycle for the first time.
I did at one point try OTC Dhea and Pregnenolone with some success and am tempted to return to that if this new treatment doesn’t work. Allowing the body to decide where it feels hormones are needed.
X
So interesting yet frustrating to see the different symptoms people can get for something that is supposed to be helping you.
I had a horrible time with peri, from my hair breaking and fragile to the horrible cramping which was already there before embarking on hrt. Significant weight gain all really suddenly. Thank heavens it mainly happened in lockdown!. Just before we went in to lockdown I was studying and had an exam - brain fog, loss of memory and pain were acute. I called my gp and said what can be done - he said nothing, you will just have to get used to it! I thought sod that for a laugh - perimenopause can be years and I will have to just exist! Needless to say I failed the exam. After a few months of struggling, I put my efforts in to finding designated menopause specialists and hence my journey and trials and tribulations on hrt began.
How long have you been on low dose oestrogen and dhea? How did you find your specialist? What made you change from OTC to prescribed stuff?
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Thanks you lady cc.
I'll pm you and perhaps you can share your doctor's name. To be honest, I can access prog only easily through my clinic, but they only deal with compounded. So I don't think they'll be too impressed with me buying onas cream. But it's definitely better!! Interesting you had the same experience on compounded estrogen. :o
I suppose I'm most Interested in your dosage. 100mg. Now, I know oral is not the best absoption. Jury seems to be out in transdermal. But you give me more certainty that higher than physiological doses of say 30mg, can be the key. To be fair, my clinic did agree to me going up to 100mg...but as that was my compounded, it was dreadful.
My symptoms, when at their worst, and when antagonised by the low dose prog are mainly : extreme motion sickness, so nausea avd dizziness, horrific brain fog, vile ill feeling, fatigue and intense pressure in my ears. Lots of other little things, but those are the main ones.
The progesterone antagonising estrogen receptors, I read like this: with estrogen dominance your body reacts by closing off receptors to estrogen as a protection mechanism. When you introduce small doses of prog these reopen to the estrogen, causing an upsurge in your estrogen dominance symptoms. Higher doses of prog help balance. You've not experienced this - so that figures as you went straight on 100mg. But all the info is so conflicting and I was told to start low. I started on 25mg. I'm currently at 40mg and things are a bit better. But it's been an awful journey.
Thanks for helping x
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Thanks you lady cc.
I'll pm you and perhaps you can share your doctor's name. To be honest, I can access prog only easily through my clinic, but they only deal with compounded. So I don't think they'll be too impressed with me buying onas cream. But it's definitely better!! Interesting you had the same experience on compounded estrogen. :o
I suppose I'm most Interested in your dosage. 100mg. Now, I know oral is not the best absoption. Jury seems to be out in transdermal. But you give me more certainty that higher than physiological doses of say 30mg, can be the key. To be fair, my clinic did agree to me going up to 100mg...but as that was my compounded, it was dreadful.
My symptoms, when at their worst, and when antagonised by the low dose prog are mainly : extreme motion sickness, so nausea avd dizziness, horrific brain fog, vile ill feeling, fatigue and intense pressure in my ears. Lots of other little things, but those are the main ones.
The progesterone antagonising estrogen receptors, I read like this: with estrogen dominance your body reacts by closing off receptors to estrogen as a protection mechanism. When you introduce small doses of prog these reopen to the estrogen, causing an upsurge in your estrogen dominance symptoms. Higher doses of prog help balance. You've not experienced this - so that figures as you went straight on 100mg. But all the info is so conflicting and I was told to start low. I started on 25mg. I'm currently at 40mg and things are a bit better. But it's been an awful journey.
Thanks for helping x
Info is conflicting but I guess as we have seen on this thread, so are individual experiences. Yes, you are right that oral is not absorbed as well as other methods. Would you be open to trying the european approach and try vaginally perhaps?
I would be really interested to know statistics on how many women found success with first prescription of hrt. Then how many had to tweak, then how many had to stray off the path and find tailored support.
Anyway, I have now PM'd you some details - if you are happy to share, please keep in touch with how your journey goes. Meanwhile I will let you know if this aloe vera helps detox and minimise inflammation :)
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Folks, I just wanted to say that whilst taking utrogestan alone isn't really a thing in the UK, many women are 'on' progesterone only, through taking various POP pills - which can be taken right through till 55yo. They are synthetic, but still functioning as progesterones in a broad way. Just in case that helps at all...
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Folks, I just wanted to say that whilst taking utrogestan alone isn't really a thing in the UK, many women are 'on' progesterone only, through taking various POP pills - which can be taken right through till 55yo. They are synthetic, but still functioning as progesterones in a broad way. Just in case that helps at all...
Hi Joziel
Yes you are quite right of course.
I know many of my friends in the past that couldnt get on with combined contraceptive pills but fared best on PoP and of course oestrogen levels would have been at optimum, its interesting that for example I was told I couldnt continue on the combined pill at the age of 35 due to the risks and was steered to PoP then when I guess my oestrogen levels would not have been on the up!
Do you follow a Progesterone only approach your self Joziel?
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Not now (I definitely need the estrogen now, alas), but I did earlier in my life. I tried the combined pill age 21 (Microgynon) and it made my boobs big - I felt like Pamela Anderson ;D And I also got some of the side effects I have now - jitters, feeling like I'm throbbing or pulsing or have a loud heart beat, racing pulse sometimes and heart palps.
So I went back to the doctor and got a POP - Norgeston - which was levonorgestrel. That suited me great. I stayed on it about 9 years and I just had a very light spotting kinda period for 5 days, once a month.
When I was 30, I decided I wanted to be au naturelle and not on any hormones. ;D That proved to be the biggest mistake EVER. I often wonder what my life would have been like if I'd just stayed on the levonorgestrel ;D I was immediately hit with painful heavy periods - eventually to the point that I passed out, sweated, had runny poop and writhed around in pain in a kinda 'attack' on the first day or two. I discovered if I took Naproxen as soon as I got my period, it stopped all this happening and thought I had everything figured out. But after 5 years I got pains outside my period, twinges and pulls and bruise like pains. And to cut a long story short, was diagnosed with mild endo after a lapararoscopy.
I was put on desogestrel POP just before that surgery to suppress the endo. I didn't like it. I had zero libido on it, headaches... I just didn't like it. After a year, I tried to go back to levonorgestrel/Norgeston - but it didn't work the way it had before. I bled constantly on it, dark brown sludge ::) After another sludge-y year [vomit emoji sadly lacking here], my GP said I had to stop trying it now - I could either double the dose or go back to desogestrel. I didn't like the idea of doubling the dose (although now I wish I'd tried that) so I went back to desogestrel and stayed on it for 9 years.
Then I hit low estrogen bonanza time. Which brings us to here ;D
The thing to say about desogestrel, is that it suppresses your ovaries' estrogen levels to within the early follicular phase. Which is low. So it means you're not getting much estrogen from your ovaries as you enter peri. I guess this isn't a terrible thing if you replace the estrogen with HRT but I think it means you hit peri hard.
Which is all to say.... if I could do it all over again, I would go on a combined pill like Qlaira or Zoely instead of desogestrel POP. That would still have shut my ovaries down and suppressed the endo - but it would also have given me body identical estrogen at this time and not just progesterone. I'd probably have stayed on that until 50 and then gone straight onto continuous HRT. And if I can't get continuous HRT to work for me, that is still an option for me - I don't think Zoely would give me enough estrogen now though, and the Qlaira has different amounts of estrogen through the cycle which might not suit me either, but hey... that's what I might have tried. Because I think I needed estrogen years earlier than I finally got it....
Sorry for the essay ;D ;D
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Not now (I definitely need the estrogen now, alas), but I did earlier in my life. I tried the combined pill age 21 (Microgynon) and it made my boobs big - I felt like Pamela Anderson ;D And I also got some of the side effects I have now - jitters, feeling like I'm throbbing or pulsing or have a loud heart beat, racing pulse sometimes and heart palps.
So I went back to the doctor and got a POP - Norgeston - which was levonorgestrel. That suited me great. I stayed on it about 9 years and I just had a very light spotting kinda period for 5 days, once a month.
When I was 30, I decided I wanted to be au naturelle and not on any hormones. ;D That proved to be the biggest mistake EVER. I often wonder what my life would have been like if I'd just stayed on the levonorgestrel ;D I was immediately hit with painful heavy periods - eventually to the point that I passed out, sweated, had runny poop and writhed around in pain in a kinda 'attack' on the first day or two. I discovered if I took Naproxen as soon as I got my period, it stopped all this happening and thought I had everything figured out. But after 5 years I got pains outside my period, twinges and pulls and bruise like pains. And to cut a long story short, was diagnosed with mild endo after a lapararoscopy.
I was put on desogestrel POP just before that surgery to suppress the endo. I didn't like it. I had zero libido on it, headaches... I just didn't like it. After a year, I tried to go back to levonorgestrel/Norgeston - but it didn't work the way it had before. I bled constantly on it, dark brown sludge ::) After another sludge-y year [vomit emoji sadly lacking here], my GP said I had to stop trying it now - I could either double the dose or go back to desogestrel. I didn't like the idea of doubling the dose (although now I wish I'd tried that) so I went back to desogestrel and stayed on it for 9 years.
Then I hit low estrogen bonanza time. Which brings us to here ;D
The thing to say about desogestrel, is that it suppresses your ovaries' estrogen levels to within the early follicular phase. Which is low. So it means you're not getting much estrogen from your ovaries as you enter peri. I guess this isn't a terrible thing if you replace the estrogen with HRT but I think it means you hit peri hard.
Which is all to say.... if I could do it all over again, I would go on a combined pill like Qlaira or Zoely instead of desogestrel POP. That would still have shut my ovaries down and suppressed the endo - but it would also have given me body identical estrogen at this time and not just progesterone. I'd probably have stayed on that until 50 and then gone straight onto continuous HRT. And if I can't get continuous HRT to work for me, that is still an option for me - I don't think Zoely would give me enough estrogen now though, and the Qlaira has different amounts of estrogen through the cycle which might not suit me either, but hey... that's what I might have tried. Because I think I needed estrogen years earlier than I finally got it....
Sorry for the essay ;D ;D
I went on the pill (Ovranette) at age 15! I had painful periods that were quite heavy and the pill helped somewhat in that although I still had pain it was less intense but with painkillers. I always had a 'rack' lol, but, I laughed out loud when I saw your Pamela Anderson comment ;D .
I must say, I didnt know that the pill puts your hormones to sleep when I started taking it. Would it have made me change my mind? No - because of the fact that I didnt understand it what the implications of that would be. Essentially, my hormones were always out of whack it seems and the best thing that I could have done is to get my hormones balanced naturally but again, as a young woman, I would not have had the money or the wherewithal to have tried to do it in that way.
I had not heard of Qlaira or Zoely but they sound like either Gederal or Ovranette so presume they are a combined pill. Given what I have said just here, and with money and knowledge I would have preferred a holistic approach. There are some great practitioners out there that seem to be very effective. But I cant really complain that I had the pill - given that I didnt have an understanding or the means to look in to alternatives I think that for good or bad being on the pill probably saved me from many years of hormonal hell - that all came later :-\
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Qlaira and Zoely are both combined pills but they both use body identical estrogen, the same kind in HRT pills. They have different synthetic progesterones.
Qlaira is especially interesting as it has different amounts of estrogen and progesterone during the month - it starts with 3mg (equivalent of 75mcg patch) then it goes to 2mg (50mcg) then to 1mcg (25mcg) - and the progesterone does the reverse, increasing through the month. Then there is a very short 2 day pill free time and a bleed.
On the one hand, seeing how sensitive I am to estrogen (jitters, heart palps), it might be a total nightmare for me ;D on the other hand I don't understand why estrogen causes me to feel like this considering it's body identical and my own body allegedly fluctuates way more during its natural cycle earlier in life...
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Qlaira and Zoely are both combined pills but they both use body identical estrogen, the same kind in HRT pills. They have different synthetic progesterones.
Qlaira is especially interesting as it has different amounts of estrogen and progesterone during the month - it starts with 3mg (equivalent of 75mcg patch) then it goes to 2mg (50mcg) then to 1mcg (25mcg) - and the progesterone does the reverse, increasing through the month. Then there is a very short 2 day pill free time and a bleed.
On the one hand, seeing how sensitive I am to estrogen (jitters, heart palps), it might be a total nightmare for me ;D on the other hand I don't understand why estrogen causes me to feel like this considering it's body identical and my own body allegedly fluctuates way more during its natural cycle earlier in life...
Are these pills new (ish) on the market? Are they prescribed readily as other combined pills or is it dependent on the gp due to cost? Are yoou saying that women can stay on these pills until 50? I wonder if my experiences would have been different if I had taken these...
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Yes they are new ish on the market in the last few years.
Women can stay on any combined pill until 50 now as long as they don’t have risk factors for clots.
They are as available as other pills now although I do think Qlaira might be a bit more expensive.
You can find them online at online pharmacies.
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Yes they are new ish on the market in the last few years.
Women can stay on any combined pill until 50 now as long as they don’t have risk factors for clots.
They are as available as other pills now although I do think Qlaira might be a bit more expensive.
You can find them online at online pharmacies.
Wow! its just over 10 years ago that I was told that I couldnt have the combined pill. As soon as I stopped a myriad of symptoms occurred including acne. 4 years later, a male doctor put me back on the pill on a low dose to alleviate the symptoms but forewarned that I would be expected to stop within a few short years, at very latest 45 so I spent those next few years working diligently to find ways to help my body and to prevent the symptoms re-curring when I stopped taking it again. That was where I took a look at my diet and managed to successfully transition from taking the pill to a good tailored eating programme that made me look and feel full of vitality and I lost weight back to my former self and gradually phased myself off the pill too.
For me and I guess others, as these pills put the body in a sleep state, I would have just been delaying the inevitable if I had continued to take it or others like it anyway seeing as I am in what is termed early menopause.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge here Joziel, very interesting indeed. :)
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For sure, 50 is the age you have to stop. Here's some info: https://www.womens-health-concern.org/help-and-advice/factsheets/contraception-older-woman/
To quote:
"Combined hormonal contraceptive methods (pill, patch and vaginal ring) are suitable until the age of 50, so long as there are no health risks (e.g. smoking, obesity, high blood pressure) that could lead to heart, stroke or blood clotting problems."
Are you on HRT? Especially if you had an early menopause, HRT is really indicated to prevent health issues in the future - at least until the age of 51 which is the average age of menopause anyway.
The main difference between the pill and HRT, is that most pills don't use body identical hormones and they do stop ovulation (otherwise they wouldn't be much good for contraception!). Whereas HRT uses body identical estrogen at least (some HRT also uses body identical progesterone) and it doesn't usually stop ovulation.
The Qlaira and Zoely are interesting pills because unlike all the others, they do use body identical estrogen. They use synthetic progesterone, but so do a lot of HRT products. To be contraceptives, they must stop ovulation. For me, with mild endo, I need to stop ovulation - and HRT with body identical progesterone wasn't doing that, which is why I had to add in my desogestrel POP. But an alternative for me, until menopause (when ovulation stops anyway!), would be a combined pill like one of these - which would stop ovulation and also give me estrogen.
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For sure, 50 is the age you have to stop. Here's some info: https://www.womens-health-concern.org/help-and-advice/factsheets/contraception-older-woman/
To quote:
"Combined hormonal contraceptive methods (pill, patch and vaginal ring) are suitable until the age of 50, so long as there are no health risks (e.g. smoking, obesity, high blood pressure) that could lead to heart, stroke or blood clotting problems."
Are you on HRT? Especially if you had an early menopause, HRT is really indicated to prevent health issues in the future - at least until the age of 51 which is the average age of menopause anyway.
The main difference between the pill and HRT, is that most pills don't use body identical hormones and they do stop ovulation (otherwise they wouldn't be much good for contraception!). Whereas HRT uses body identical estrogen at least (some HRT also uses body identical progesterone) and it doesn't usually stop ovulation.
The Qlaira and Zoely are interesting pills because unlike all the others, they do use body identical estrogen. They use synthetic progesterone, but so do a lot of HRT products. To be contraceptives, they must stop ovulation. For me, with mild endo, I need to stop ovulation - and HRT with body identical progesterone wasn't doing that, which is why I had to add in my desogestrel POP. But an alternative for me, until menopause (when ovulation stops anyway!), would be a combined pill like one of these - which would stop ovulation and also give me estrogen.
Thanks for the link - interesting reading. Things must have changed within the last 10 years, either that or my GP's were more behind with the times than I thought.
By HRT if you mean traditional oestrogen and progesterone then the answer is no. My initial post on this thread was relating to my intolerance of oestrogen and the fact that after 3 time trying with horrible side effects, I wont put that in my body again. I am using just utrogestan which is not something that UK doctors prescribed but as others here have pointed out is widely prescribed in other parts of the world.
Forgive me joziel are you perimenopausal - im losing track (concentration and focus still not at optimum since peri/menopause)?
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Ah yes sorry my bad! I remember.
I’m also having bad estrogen side effects although I think they are different to what yours were. I’m getting pulsing, throbbing hands and body generally in bed at night, feet and hands feeling a little tingly or pins and needles-y at these times and heart palps. I only really know about the heart palps because I feel a bit jittery and my blood pressure monitor will say irregular pulse. I’m also waking between 4-6am every night. (It’s 4.30am now!)
I’m absolutely exhausted and no idea what to do. I can’t stop estrogen, it has fixed so many of my awful symptoms- but I also can’t go on like this. And I remember having slightly similar side effects when I was 21 and went on the combined pill. I just switched it for the POP. But I can’t do that now…
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Wow joziel, that’s more or less what I get with the estrogen.
Well not the heart palps but bad burning feet and I also wake every night about 4am.
It’s rather odd though as I get the burning feet when I go to bed and I get to sleep ok. When I wake up my feet are fine but my mind races away. After about 1.5 hours my burning feet start again and I go back to sleep for about another hour or so.
It’s so odd! In some ways I rather like the burning feet as it means I’ll go to sleep.
X
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When you say burning, do you mean throbbing? Or are they hot to the touch if you touch them with another hand?
Mine don’t burn, my theory is the blood flow to my hands and feet is affected somehow. I often in my sleep feel my hands are numb like when you get a dead foot - I have always had this if I sleep with an arm above my head but now it happens just with hands on my chest or by my side so it seems to happen more often and take less.
Everything I read says estrogen is good for cardiovascular health. I’m not sure which part of all this is good for me. 🤷♀️
Last night was really bad, because the pulsing and throbbing and palps started before I went to bed at 11pm and they are still happening now - 9am. This is a day they will probably last till lunch time.
I’ve no idea what to do. I can request a heart monitor but chances are the palps will be deemed okay and I’ll be offered beta blockers. They are not strong palps by the way, the only way I know is the blood pressure machine says irregular pulse when I feel like this. It’s not really that I can feel it although it does feel a little fluttery or jittery…
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Throbbing hot pins and needles type pain, actually I’ve never felt them to see if they’re hot but will do so tonight.
The only thing I can find is that it’s indicative of low vitamin B’s but I take them and it’s still the same.
Sorry I can’t help at all with the palps joziel
apart from remembering reading that a certain magnesium can help, is it taurate or taurine, something beginning with T anyway. X
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Yeah I’m taking the magnesium glycinate.
I do have faint pins and needles so maybe it’s related. I wouldn’t call it a pain more a sort of faint tingling. But it could be a weaker version of the same thing 👍
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Yes mine started off weaker a few years ago, so could well be.
Have a look at the other magnesium joziel, it might help x