Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Alternative Therapies => Topic started by: LadyCC on April 08, 2021, 09:00:09 PM
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Hi All
I wondered whether you would mind sharing your experiences -
Have you tried BHRT and then reverted to Natural Supplementation?
What was your reasoning?
Did your symptoms improve?
How long did you give it before making the switch?
Similarly..
Have you tried Natural Supplementation and then reverted to BHRT?
What was your reasoning?
Did your symptoms improve?
How long did you give it before making the switch?
Also has anyone tried Dr Vegan's Menofriend???
As you can probably tell, im trying to make a decision and would be interested in hearing peoples experiences. Many thanks in advance
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You get meno symptoms because you're deficient in oestrogen so the best option is to replace the oestrogen you no longer produce - so hrt.
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Hi,
Yes, I have been on a largely plant based diet for a number of years; to try and boost the phytoestrogens. I had Japanese fermented soya beans as part of the regime; as the Japanese women have relatively few menopausal issues (or at least they are not mentioned!). I have tried some herbal supplements but was concerned about liver toxicity or other side effects. In the end my estrogen levels were still not high enough. I think it may be successful for some though?
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Hi @Sophie20 - thank you for taking the time to respond. I am still exploring this route
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I put some info on my experiences with this on another thread - using my own experiences, the differing doctors approaches (all 'real' docs or consultants) but I got a bit of a slap down so I won't be repeating. MM in danger of 'cancel culture'.
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HRT can't be the only solution. Also no everyone can take it.
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I agree KatineT.
There is no one size fits all.
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Hello ladies.
The question of why meno symptoms are severe for some women and mild for others is probably as old as the hills. I assume that if your symptoms are mild then HRT or even supplements are not required but if your quality of life is being ruined then any and all treatments would be considered.
Ages ago a GP told me that about twenty percent of women have a very hard time and no one knows why. When I last saw him and complained about my mood problems he said not to worry as they settle eventually. Eventually can sound like a life sentence when you think you are losing your mind!
I believe the charity that Louise Newson has set up will look at research into the menopause so perhaps one day we will have some answers. The charity is crowd funded to prevent pharmaceutical companies from buying undue influence. Maybe if we all make a donation we can help ourselves and future generations of women as well.
Wishing everyone well.
K.
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Which thread Iris? Was the comment removed :-\
Menopause is natural. However, some symptoms can be awful. What is in the 'natural' supplements that you would consider? How much are fillers and packaging for example, with a small amount of ingredient which may/not assist.
A lack of oestrogen is the main reason why women feel ill. So H replacement T works for many. Some get help with supplements until their own hormones take over, also, some can have toxic side effects if taken for 'too' long. However long 'too much' might B.
Think about which symptom you would like to ease first? Put it into the search box on the Forum and C what pops up, make notes ;). Bio-identical are at least researched with regards to menopause.
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Hi all
My symptoms are those associated with oestrogen dominance. I know the common theme is that oestrogen works magic for most but I have not found it beneficial and I do think that perhaps I dont tolerate it well as every single time I have been using it my symptoms are constant and exacerbated even if only using half a pump as I have been most recently but it was extremely bad when I was following the NICE guidance on 2 pumps. I have spoken to a practitioner recently who advised that there is growing research in relation to utilising bio identical HRT initially without necessarily supplementing with oestrogen as it is progesterone that depletes first and for many women oestrogen goes up and down for a while before it finally sinks. Also I was told by the Integrated Practioner who has a specific interest in this field that there is very little evidence and research to support oestrogen use during menopause - most studies have been done on this with people who have not had a period for over 12 months and so are in menopause.
Currently I am waiting for the results from a DUTCH test so that will help me with what next steps to take. I have temporarily paused oestrogel and am taking a supplement high in phytoestrogens which I know will not be as strong as oestrogel but I am just wondering if perhaps my body can only tolerate a more milder form. In the meantime I still take the bio identical utrogestan. Very early days yet so just monitoring at the moment so we shall see
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Do U require oestrogen at this moment in time?
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Do U require oestrogen at this moment in time?
I guess that remains to be seen. I will receive the results back sometime around the 24th June and will know definitively then. In trying the supplements it is a last ditch attempt to see if I can tolerate some kind of oestrogen to have that additional protection but your right, it may not be necessary.
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A drop in oestrogen is usually what causes a lot of symptoms. Mine manifested in less and less periods, a few flushes then VA. Gradually, fortunately.
Until my periods waxed and waned I had no inkling about The Change ............
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LadyCC - I am interested in what you discover. When I lived in the USA there were a number of women who only took progesterone (as a cream) in perimenopause. Now I KNOW this is highly controversial over here, but I wonder if we are missing something for some women?
Before anyone asks, I am not thinking of using unlicensed progesterone cream but I do find I am happier during the second half of my cycle when progesterone is on the up, so wonder if it is more about progesterone diminishing first. I am certain the oestrogen effects will kick in at some point too!
I am also on the not-so-skinny side so wonder if my body produces more oestrogen.
Ah, questions and more questions...
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Curioser and curioser ............
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LadyCC - I am interested in what you discover. When I lived in the USA there were a number of women who only took progesterone (as a cream) in perimenopause. Now I KNOW this is highly controversial over here, but I wonder if we are missing something for some women?
Before anyone asks, I am not thinking of using unlicensed progesterone cream but I do find I am happier during the second half of my cycle when progesterone is on the up, so wonder if it is more about progesterone diminishing first. I am certain the oestrogen effects will kick in at some point too!
I am also on the not-so-skinny side so wonder if my body produces more oestrogen.
Ah, questions and more questions...
Hey TrustandHope
Yes I had heard that this was the case and that in the U.S they do administer progesterone alone. What is your regime currently if you dont mind me asking? Do yo think it is helping overall?
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Hi LadyCC - I am at the early stages of sussing all this out. Had peri symptoms for around 4 years (starting age 46) but not enough to bother substantially, then a major hormonal meltdown earlier this year. Specialist is pretty convinced I had COVID and it sent my endocrine system bonkers. I have made a slow recovery and am now left with 'enhanced' perimenopause. Delightful. Maybe it was on the cards in any case.
Tried Evorel Sequi for a couple of months but the timing was all wrong because I was still dealing with what we think was long COVID. So decided to stop that and try and establish some kind of normality.
Have been tracking my cycle for 3 months - happiest days are those when I know progesterone is that bit higher. This is completely different from the past, when they were days when my husband would keep a safe distance. I am now miserable on days I was previously ok. So almost a reversal. I am normally very calm, laid back and happy so all this anxiety and other stuff has been a shock.
I have just started on Evorel again - low 25mcg this time - and so far so good but am speaking to menopause specialist this week to change to Oestrogel and probably Utrogestan because I want flexibility as estrogen drops further. I am not good with Norethisterone.
I also want to discuss progesterone cream with her. In the States I had friends who did:
- no HRT but used progesterone cream most days (which I guess is mild HRT), which they say calmed anxiety and shakes;
- low dose HRT (estrogen and progesterone) and the progesterone cream when they felt they needed it;
- average dose HRT plus the cream.
It seemed to be an acceptable add on. Perhaps because doctors felt its dosage was negligible. Some also used a very low dose estrogen/progesterone mix cream. The problem is that none of this is licensed here. Also, it is so readily available in the USA that you could run into problems if not given good advice.
But maybe it could smooth the way for some who have lesser symptoms and don't want to use 'full fat' HRT? I am guessing that UK GPs may have progesterone cream at their disposal but the evidence base for use in perimenopause probably just isn't there.
I will let you know what the specialist says when I ask! I am just curious about all the options. This time last year I had never heard the words oestrogel, utrogestan or evorel!!
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Hi LadyCC - I am at the early stages of sussing all this out. Had peri symptoms for around 4 years (starting age 46) but not enough to bother substantially, then a major hormonal meltdown earlier this year. Specialist is pretty convinced I had COVID and it sent my endocrine system bonkers. I have made a slow recovery and am now left with 'enhanced' perimenopause. Delightful. Maybe it was on the cards in any case.
Tried Evorel Sequi for a couple of months but the timing was all wrong because I was still dealing with what we think was long COVID. So decided to stop that and try and establish some kind of normality.
Have been tracking my cycle for 3 months - happiest days are those when I know progesterone is that bit higher. This is completely different from the past, when they were days when my husband would keep a safe distance. I am now miserable on days I was previously ok. So almost a reversal. I am normally very calm, laid back and happy so all this anxiety and other stuff has been a shock.
I have just started on Evorel again - low 25mcg this time - and so far so good but am speaking to menopause specialist this week to change to Oestrogel and probably Utrogestan because I want flexibility as estrogen drops further. I am not good with Norethisterone.
I also want to discuss progesterone cream with her. In the States I had friends who did:
- no HRT but used progesterone cream most days (which I guess is mild HRT), which they say calmed anxiety and shakes;
- low dose HRT (estrogen and progesterone) and the progesterone cream when they felt they needed it;
- average dose HRT plus the cream.
It seemed to be an acceptable add on. Perhaps because doctors felt its dosage was negligible. Some also used a very low dose estrogen/progesterone mix cream. The problem is that none of this is licensed here. Also, it is so readily available in the USA that you could run into problems if not given good advice.
But maybe it could smooth the way for some who have lesser symptoms and don't want to use 'full fat' HRT? I am guessing that UK GPs may have progesterone cream at their disposal but the evidence base for use in perimenopause probably just isn't there.
I will let you know what the specialist says when I ask! I am just curious about all the options. This time last year I had never heard the words oestrogel, utrogestan or evorel!!
Hey TrustandHope
Sorry to hear that you have been unwell. I too notice that I feel 'better' when progesterone is higher, particularly when I was on Utrogestan and Oestrogel.
It would be great if you could share what you find out from your menopause specialist. Can I ask, is it a menopause clinic you are attending or have you found an independent specialist that you are working with?
Someone told me about Prof Jerilyn Prior ( https://www.cemcor.ubc.ca/media/prior_bio ) who also advocates a progesterone only approach. It seems that there is quite a way to go before this is accepted more widely without controversy though :-\
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The thing about progesterone is that it does deplete during peri-menopause in that this is when anovulatory cycles occur. Oestrogen then allows the uterus lining to build up leading to heavy and sporadic bleeding, so progesterone alone can be given in order to regulate periods and protect the womb from build up. As women get further towards menopause then oestrogen declines overall even while still fluctuating so oestrogen replacement prevents that crash which can occur either just after mid cycle (if ovulation occurs) but especially towards the latter part of the cycle and first part of the next cycle ie provides a buffer against the fluctuations when oestrogen falls very low.
I haven't looked at the research papers recently but I am sure studies into symptoms have looked at oestrogen and progesterone replacement both during peri-menopause and post-menopause.
It is acknowledged by some specialists that a small minority of women may benefit from progesterone replacement to alleviate symptoms but this is a minority. Studies show that most of us benefit overall from oestrogen repalcement along with progesterone to protect the womb lining.
Progesterone cream is not licensed as part of HRT because it does not provide sufficient progesterone to protect the womb and compounded progesterone because it is non-standard and unregulated so it is not possible to determine what dose you are getting whereas the approved stuff is regulated. GPs do not have progesterone cream at their disposal because there is no licensed product. I doubt you will find BMS approved menopause specialists recommending it either for the same reasons.
Someone told me about Prof Jerilyn Prior ( https://www.cemcor.ubc.ca/media/prior_bio ) who also advocates a progesterone only approach. It seems that there is quite a way to go before this is accepted more widely without controversy though :-\
It's not a controversy as such - as I said - just lacks a regulated product and as far as I know, insufficient evidence base to warrant investment maybe? Obviously all sorts of weak products can be purchased privately at great expense and at your own risk or off the shelf - even weaker and anyone who wants to try them is welcome.
Me - I prefer to use something that is tried and tested properly with regulated trials as a starting point - even if one then deviates from the licensed regime to some extent as I do ( under medical supervision).
There is also nothing to stop anyone from cutting patches to give a very small oestrogen dose and eg taking progesterone every couple of days to protect the womb - if doc approves....
Hurdity x
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OK, so I had a chat with the menopause specialist (she works for the NHS and privately). Her response was along the lines of what Hurdity has said (thank you Hurdity!).
She would not recommend using OTC progesterone cream, though acknowledged it might be useful to some women in the early stages of perimenopause (which I am well past!). But she could not recommend it. I did clarify it was more curiosity on my part than anything because so many USA women I know rave about it. And I know it won't protect my uterus, but that was not what I was curious about.
So, I am about to launch into an oestrogel/utrogestan regime. Will be interested to see what happens, hopefully nothing terribly eventful!! Every day is a school day on this wonderful journey of menopause...
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Trustandhope, how is the new regime working for you?
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TrustandHope
I'm curious about your DUTCH test results and how this has helped you? This is something I feel I would benefit from but alas it seems to require a private doctor or practitioner to order and interpret the results.
I found a company called LifecodeGX who do genetic 'genomic' testing to find out how the patient metabolises hormones, what their inherited health risks are and how diet and lifestyle would be beneficial, amongst other things.
This is all beyond the remit of the NHS and so unfortunately must be privately funded.
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TrustandHope
I'm curious about your DUTCH test results and how this has helped you? This is something I feel I would benefit from but alas it seems to require a private doctor or practitioner to order and interpret the results.
I found a company called LifecodeGX who do genetic 'genomic' testing to find out how the patient metabolises hormones, what their inherited health risks are and how diet and lifestyle would be beneficial, amongst other things.
This is all beyond the remit of the NHS and so unfortunately must be privately funded.
Hi Jasmine20
I have had the LifecodeGX test (really really expensive) amongst other tests. I dont feel that the practitioner I was working with put it to great use - I am being told a load of information that my brain cannot retain due to brain fog and memory loss as part of this wonderful period of life. Suffice to say that from a nutrition perspective, I am not seeing the benefits of this in a way to help me with weight loss. I have been looking at alternatives and am only targeting working with people who can interpret these results and will take the fact that I have gone to such efforts on this in relation to fees for services. I cant believe I have spent all that money and for it not to really be doing anything for me - I am disappointed but I dont want these tests to have been in vane hence my continued search for a practitioner to help me.
Are you going to do the test? Do you have a practitioner in mind?
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Hi LadyCC, it sounds very frustrating.
Apart from the weight loss plans was the practitioner helpful making you feel that the tests were of value? Will they provide the appointment discussions in writing or does this incur further charges?
I hope you find a new practitioner soon, do they have to be UK based? I’m thinking if you could do a zoom apt at least you’d be able to record it.
Either way, good luck.
Victoria.x
EDIT
This might be of interest, I don’t think I’m allowed to post links where products are sold, hope it’s ok to name her, called Pippa Campbell, a Nutrigenomics and Weight loss specialist.
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Hi LadyCC, it sounds very frustrating.
Apart from the weight loss plans was the practitioner helpful making you feel that the tests were of value? Will they provide the appointment discussions in writing or does this incur further charges?
I hope you find a new practitioner soon, do they have to be UK based? I’m thinking if you could do a zoom apt at least you’d be able to record it.
Either way, good luck.
Victoria.x
EDIT
This might be of interest, I don’t think I’m allowed to post links where products are sold, hope it’s ok to name her, called Pippa Campbell, a Nutrigenomics and Weight loss specialist.
Hi Victoria
Thank you so much for providing the info on this person. I have I think found someone who will incorporate the tests already done but am intrigued as to what a nutrigenomics weight loss specialist is so will look her up. Do you have any experience of this practitioner? For me with the current practitioner when all was said and done they werent overly keen on drafting a programme for me and it incorporates a lot of recipes from scratch with lots of ingredients and im not working at the moment so its all just becoming too expensive and most importantly, I am not seeing or feeling any benefits either. Ive given it a while now - its time to knock it on the head :-\