Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Rufus657 on November 22, 2020, 06:59:36 AM
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Hi
I’m at wits end. I’m 62 Taking utrogestan 100mg and oestrogel and tostran. I changed to vaginal application of Utro. as was bleeding every 10 days. The bleeding has settled thankfully.
Now I have horrendous night sweats. They gave come from jo where. Haven’t slept properly for 3 /4 weeks. Affecting life work and marriage. I increased oestrogel to two pumps ( was on 1:5 ) but no change just very sore boobs.
My Doctor has no knowledge on hrt
I was visiting Oxford meno clinic but their email service has ceased so can’t talk to anyone.
Please can anyone advise. Do I up the dose of anything ? Or take a supplement ? Or ?? :(
Im grateful for any help or advice
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I’m on the same as you without the testosterone which I trying to get as I need it! 😰
I up my gel if that happens I’m only on 1 pump daily but did increase a couple of weeks ago as I was experiencing sweats at night it sorted it out and I’ve now gone back down to the 1 pump a day so far so good x
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Morning. MayB put the product names into the search box on the Forum to see what pops up? I know that some ladies do increase pumps to ease symptoms.
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I think you need more oestrogen. Has the increase had long enough to work? If it has I would increase again. The sore boobs may well settle.
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Thank you for your quick replies
Everyone.
I have researched all over forum with so many conflicting posts.
To be honest your responses help just to be able to connect with people about it.
I’ve upped my gel in last two weeks. How long does it take ?
So what do I do now Hmmm Take Utro every other day vaginally ? Would that work. My mood and well being is better now I’m absorbing properly.
But these sweats are debilitating. Soaked every night.
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Thanks Birdy and everyone else here. So if I was to decide to change things around ( if the oestrogen doesn’t settle ) I suppose I could increase my oral dose to 200mg. What are the health risks here. Or another thought to take it (100mg ) on a empty stomach in the morning would it be absorbed better then so I don’t get the bleeds ?
I had a terrible night last night. I don’t think I can sustain this lack of sleep. The ironic thing is night sweats weren’t a problem for me menopause wise it was joints , libido and tiredness ! Now I have a symptom induced by HRT. It’s doing my head in !
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Perhaps try it as sequi for a few months instead (12 days x 200mg, maybe a long cycle). That way you can tell if oestrogen or prog is the problem. I'm late peri but will continue this way in meno as I'd rather have a bleed than be on utro continuously. The manufacturer states the dose is the same if you take it orally or vaginally so if you reduce it's best done with the medical supervision. If you find utrogeston is the problem you could try a different progestin.
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Ok thanks Birdy and Sheila99. I was told to take at night to aid sleep so if I went back took 100 mg orally on morning it may aid absorption as gut is fuller in evening.
I can’t talk to anyone unless I change my route completely ( again) and start off at any other clinic. This is my 4 attempt. I feel good on the utro. I think I’m not sure what you mean Sheila on 12 days. 200 mg. what then I stop for 18 days ? I don’t know sequi process and I thought that was for peri women only not post meno. Birdy do you still take utro despite your feelings about it ?
I’m pretty sure the problem is utro as oestrogel. doesn’t give sweats does it ?
Or perhaps I drop everything every thing and go herbal route, which again is a mine field ( and expensive ) but would miss the tostran which is fab for libido and energy etc !
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I use 200mg for 12 days per cycle, late peri, using a 6 week cycle. I'm not suggesting doing it this way forever (though you can if you find it suits you) but to see which is the problem. You should bleed after the utro. If you sweat only on the utro phase you'll know utro doesn't agree with you. If you sweat on oestrogen only you're deficient in oestrogen and need a higher dose.
If you find utro is the problem you can either decide to live with it or try a different progestin. I'm lethargic on utro so I will continue to use a cycle after meno as I have more good days that way.
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Hi you need to find a better gp.. Ask GP reception if they know which Dr specialises, or contact sexual health? Our area has small clinic for menopause within sexual health. Waited a year to get appt but gp got advice from them during that time.
It's tough going through this but definitely improves our detective skills! Dx
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Hi Denise. Thanks for your reply. I gave up on my GP 2 years ago when I asked her to refer me to the meno clinic in Oxford. All has been well until they made cuts made 3 months ago where we can no longer talk to our consultant via email. We have to book appts which we have to wait for. My consultant is very good and it was she that recommended to administer vaginally. The sweats have started since and I can’t talk to her
Hence my desperate call out here. Everyone here so far has been so reassuring. I’m hanging in with the extra oestrogel first to let it take its efffect. If this fails I will seek again. Not happy to change sequence with out medical advice.
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Well Ladies, thank you so much for your advice because it looks like the sweats are easing after sticking with increased dose of Qestrogel. Im hanging in there with bated breath that things continue to improve. One thing that isnt improving though is the painfully sore boobs.
They have deffo got worse. So what is that down too.... better absorption of Utro or the increased dose of Oestrogel ? Will they die down ?
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Hello ladies.
My tender breasts resolved about two weeks after coming off Utrogestan. Incidentally my VA symptoms appeared two weeks after stopping Oestrogel and I was only on a low dose at the time.
Hope this is helpful and take care ladies.
K.
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Hormonal upheaval? Have you tried 'nurofen' or similar on a regular basis?
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Thanks ladies. Well hurrah. The night sweats have gone ! Birdy I wasn’t too sure what you meant in your last message. You think that the boobs may ease in time. They are so so sore. More than ever. I can’t do my normal exersises as so sore to jog on spot etc. It’s now about 2/3 weeks since I upped oestrogel from 1.5 to 2 pumps. Any personal experiences here ?
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It's best to change one thing at a time so you know what causes any side effect. It isn't unusual to get sore boobs when you increase oestrogen so my money would be on that. It will usually settle so I would buy a good sports bra and wait a bit longer. I get sore boobs with progesterone, always did with my own but now that has all but packed up I'm on day 10 of 200mg utro before I get it. I think it's unlikely the change to vaginal utro would be be big enough change though I don't think you can rule it out. My sore boobs with progesterone doesn't go until a few days after the prog stops. So I think you have 2 choices, you can either wait or you can change either the gel or the utro back to what it was before and see what happens.
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Hi Rufus, what you wrote a couple of weeks ago - "I was told to take at night to aid sleep so if I went back took 100 mg orally on morning it may aid absorption as gut is fuller in evening" - i think that's the wrong way round. Taking utro with food increases absorption, not decreases it. I'm pretty sure that's right, hope someone else comes along to confirm it.
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I don't know about orally but used vaginally it makes no difference as it doesn't go through the gut anyway. You do need to insert it just before you go to bed though (gravity).
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Sorry no time to read this thread but just to say I believe befuddled is right in that taking Utro with food is said to increase absorption.
Taking utro with food increases absorption, not decreases it. I'm pretty sure that's right, hope someone else comes along to confirm it.
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Hi everyone. Thanks for your support and suggestions. Sheila999, the reason i changed to vaginal utro was because I was bleeding every 10 days and felt wretched. So vaginal has sorted that ( although have been spotting for 7 days :/ and have period pains today )
I upped the oestrogel as the sweats were un manageable. Now in a dilemma as boobs are twice size and so painful. Generally though my energy and well being are good. This boob thing is agony.
Can anyone recommend a good nhs meno clinic near the Berkshire area. The clinic I attended in Oxford has now changed the way they communicate with patients and I can’t get help in the same way I used too. I have to wait until March to talk to my consultant.
Shall I take evening primrose oil ? Can I do that ? If. I could sort this pain and tenderness out that would be a relief. I’m a bit reluctant to go onto the sequential route off my own back
Also reluctant to quit as I feel energetic and free of joint pain and low mood.
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Hi Rufus,
I have also suffered from very sore heavy boobs & progesterone is the culprit. I was also on Utro & Oestrogel the pain was awful & limits exercise choices for sure.
I have taken Eve primrose for about more 20 years or starflower which is stronger. I believe they have helped with meno, inflammation & joints. Whenever I have stopped HRT or pill over the years boobs are usually reduced in size more in proportion with my petite frame & when I am back on HRT go up a size & around the old monthly time they get sorer.
Reducing salt really helps, swimming when possible tends to really help & after swim tend to pee a lot & eases tenderness & retention.
I am awaiting Femseven patches to come back which is now promising Jan 2021 but now taking Femoston conti which is better than utro for me especially boobs but they still get sore - better with patches.
I hope you find this useful it's such a juggle finding the best combination but really great overall for mind, body, bones & lady garden ;D
Happy healthy Christmas to all :)
Ladybird2
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Can anyone recommend a good nhs meno clinic near the Berkshire area.
No personal experience but Patrick Bose at Royal Berks Hospital, Reading, is listed as having a special interest in menopause & trained under Nick Panay.
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Hi All. Well enough was enough. The pain in my boobs became so unbearable and I have felt so oremenstrual that I have come off everything as started to brown spot. I give up. Of course since then I have had shocking period pains and bleeding all over Christmas and it’s just coming to an end now. However my boobs are pain free and I feel lighter. Now what !! Now back to low energy joint pain and what ever else may unfold. Disillusioned to say the least.
However. I have a question. Can I take the testosterone gel on its own to keep my libido up. That could work for now until I decide what to do next. Can anyone help on that question. :))
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I believe testosterone gets converted if you're deficient in oestrogen. It's unlikely you'll get anyone to prescribe it on it's own and if they do it may not work as expected. When you say you upped the oestrogen and this resulted in sore boobs - could you have used a smaller amount which might give you the benefit without the pain?
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Thank you Wrensong and Ladybird for your replies. I will investigate the chap at royal Berks. That’s local to me.
Sheila999 when you say testosterone is converted. What is it converted into ?
Have to say I feel relieved to be off it all. Felt so premenstrual.
However , already feel that my libido has dropped like a stone. Testosterone worked so well for that.
After all, my main issues before HRT were no libido , low mood and joint pain. All were remedied by hrt despite the faff and messing about.
There must be the perfect combo for me out there. I just don’t see why I should have to pay a fortune for finding it privately.
All advice and suggestions very welcome especially if you have found a good NHS meno clinic or clinician.
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Hi Rufus, have just quickly read through this thread. When you said you've had 4 attempts do you mean the HRT combo you've just stopped was your 4th type of HRT? I'm asking for 2 reasons: 1) I cannot tolerate Utrogestan with any amount of oestrogen & one of its worst effects for me is horrendous ramping up of night sweats. So I wonder whether, as I think someone else suggested, you might be better on a different form of prog? 2) the more androgenic progestogens in Evorel Sequi/Conti or once back on the market Femseven Sequi/Conti, may solve your libido probs without needing T. Apologies if you've tried these & found them unsuitable.
You could maybe ring Mr Bose's sec @ Royal Berks to find out whether he is currently able to see patients/offering teleconsults/how long his waiting list & get your GP to refer you if any quicker than waiting for the Radcliffe appt, though somehow I doubt it. Not sure whether Outpatient appts at RBH have now been suspended with the escalation of the COVID situation. Their website may say.
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Just a quick bit of personal experience. I was trialled on testosterone a while back and had to stop as hair was growing across my lower belly. I was using the minimal amount. I only had Estring (am post meno) so having oestrogen to enable its efficacy is a puzzle to me. I think it could be ok in peri or meno, but very unsure about post. There are herbal remedies like Horny Goat Weed (unfortunate label!) which might help with libido and be less likely to mess up the whole hormonal cascade? It's a real dilemma, finding and striking the right balance, but my gut feeling is still less is more as far as possible so we can be clear what's going on and what's working.
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Hello Wren Song
Yes , this last cocktail Utro, oestrogel and testosterone is the 4th prescription
1 was Elleste, sore boobs just manageable but felt suicidal
2 was femseven conti felt mad and kept bleeding and patches coming off
3 was Utro 100mg Orally and oestrogel bleeding every 10 days
4 Utro 100mg vaginally with Oestrogel and Test. No bleeding for 3 months but horrendous night sweats, unbearable boobs , shocking premenstrual feelings and now a bleed. BUT ! ....felt good in body re aches and pains and energy and libido fab !
Have now come off everything. feel amazing and light( no premenstrual stuff )....BUT sore joints and body aches and no libido !
I will check out another clinic and follow up Dr Bose today
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Hello again Rufus. So if Elleste was Duet, that means you've tried the 2 more androgenic progestogens: Norethisterone in that & Levonorgestrel in Femseven? Looking at your list that seems to leave a couple of options for progestogens: dydrogesterone (in Femoston) or MPA tabs (with separate oestrogen)? You could combine testosterone with either of those to get your libido back. Imagine you want to avoid an IUD. Just a few thoughts, as the compromise for feeling amazing & light being joint pain, body aches & no libido is not great. Have been through all the prog options myself & none of them have been good, so I sympathise.
I hope you manage to get an appointment with someone helpful soon. Do let us know.
Wx
Forgot to say - if there's a chance you were not getting adequate absorption from the gel, I find Estradot work well in that respect & also stick very well.
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Hi Rufus, I am in my mid 60's and have been trying to get right HRT for me for a year.
I was on a conti regime as didn't want to bleed. I was on the gel 2 pumps daily and 100mg Utrogestan every night with a blob of Tostran gel. I started it last year because hot flushes would not go away, got bad VA, no libido, bad mood and joint pain.
The hot flushes went after after a few weeks of starting but other issues never really improved.
I wrote to Dr Currie who suggested I may not be absorbing the gel and suggested Estradot patches. So my Gp changed the gel to an Estradot 50mg patch and am now taking that with the Utro and Tostran gel (after having a two months break to see how I went - but hot sweats came back with a vengeance >:().
I am now waiting to try the FemSeven Conti which is on order with my pharmacy after my GP doing a script for it, as I am going to try going completely transdermal which was suggested but not available when I went to my local Meno clinic over a year ago.
It really all is a minefield so hope you go on ok. x
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Really interesting thread!
I had low mood, aches, pains, low libido, anxiety and palpitations as my main symptoms (no sweats!)
I tried the patches, and all was good except they peeled off and then also caused me some hyperplasia :'(
So I am now on Utro/Lenzetto Combo.....and boom......night sweats are absolutely debilitating! Never thought that it might be the utro :o
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Hi PMDD
So I am now on Utro/Lenzetto Combo.....and boom......night sweats are absolutely debilitating! Never thought that it might be the utro
Pyrexia/fever can unfortunately be a side effect of progesterone - if you google you will see it documented. I find Utro absolutely intolerable in its extreme exacerbation of night sweats, however much oestrogen I take it with.
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Hi PMDD So I am now on Utro/Lenzetto Combo.....and boom......night sweats are absolutely debilitating! Never thought that it might be the utro
Pyrexia/fever can unfortunately be a side effect of progesterone - if you google you will see it documented. I find Utro absolutely intolerable in its extreme exacerbation of night sweats, however much oestrogen I take it with.
What do you use as your progesterone now? xx
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PMDD having tried all forms of prog, I now use MPA on a long cycle, but this is a closely monitored trial of a non-standard regimen & will need a uterine scan sooner rather than later to check lining control is adequate. The prog phase of the cycle is still horrendous & something I dread (gynae referral in pipeline to discuss hysterectomy - ovaries whipped out already) but I am also struggling to get the E&T adjusted for better symptom control, having had several enforced breaks from HRT which of course upset the apple cart each time :o!
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Thank you Wrensong and Julia.
I have investigated with Dr Bose and he's only seeing Obs and Gynae Patients. No menopause patients. :/
One thing I forgot to mention along the way was that because of the bleeding I have been scanned twice. It revealed that I have two fibroids, not big although one of them had grown a bit on a second scan carried Summer 2020. Ive been told that bleeding can be made worse with HRT. is this correct?
Any way since I stopped everything I feel better psychologically . The sweats, hassle and faff was really getting me down. Using Utro Vaginally was not the best but clearly absorption was better. My energy levels arent as good but if i excersize I can keep them up a bit. My partner is patient with the libido and been sweet, and light hearted and says " we just have to spend more time on it ! " :D
So for now, ii think .....Im sticking without HRT, achy back and knees can be alleviated with more regular exercise . Ill keep looking for a new clinic but lockdown is preventing that anyway for now. So lets see where this all takes me :)))
If anyone has any input though i am always very grateful x
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Hi Rufus, oh, Mr Bose no longer seeing menopause patients then :(. Perhaps a backlog of obs & gynae patients because of the pandemic.
The following link from Newson Health is about fibroids & HRT:-
https://www.menopausedoctor.co.uk/menopause/fibroids-and-the-menopause
It's great to hear you're feeling better psychologically off HRT & that you have strategies in place to hopefully improve the physical symptoms, so that you're happy to continue without HRT for the time being. Lovely partner too by the sound of it :). All seems very positive & I think I'd do the same in your shoes, so I'm pleased for you. I hope it works out well & please let us know how you are.
Wx
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Thanks Wrensong for your reply. That’s an interesting article. Good to know. I think I may have been one of those occasional patients perhaps. Anyway thanks as always for your reply and support. Onwards and upwards.