Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Noheroicsplease on November 09, 2018, 08:42:08 AM
-
I've recently changed my HRT. While it has had a positive impact on my emotional wellbeing (the reason I'm on HRT, that and osteopenia and I'm post meno at 47), my sleep is still bad. Several hours sometimes, lying there, awake.
It's been this way for 3 years now. I feel I have tried everything - and I'm very resourceful. I know what to do, what not to do. I do lots of exercise (well, this is also the problem, the tiredness makes me not want to some weeks), I have incredibly healthy diet, no caffeine/booze/sugar, walk a lot, take lots of supplements to promote sleepfulness. Take melatonin on occasion (makes little difference). Occasionally I take a sleeping pill to 'reset' and then I get a full night. But I can't take them all the time. I nap when I have to, if I can. I've taken on less work. I'm totally regimented about my social life so I don't overdo. I'm stripped back to basics!
I don't know what to do next. I went to bed at 10pm. Asleep by 10.30. Woke at 2. Awake still at 4.30. Got up to do pre school run stuff.
I'm tired. Sad. Despairing that I'm ever going to feel rested.
I don't even know why I'm here as I don't feel there's anything anyone can say. But I just have to vent that this is totally shit and I hate the menopause.
-
You vent away girl,that's what we're all here for.sleep deprivation is truly awful & I'm sure you've tried pretty much everything,like you I don't think I'd start taking sleeping pills,too addictive,I'm guessing you've tried all the herbal ones'the people at Holland & Barrett are really helpful & all seem to now be trained.
Really hope you feel better soon,if you do find something make sure you let us all know xx
-
I can totally relate to this - vent away.
One of my main reasons for staying with HRT was to enable me to get some better sleep, however in reality I wasn't finding HRT made that much difference. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture with good reason and I think for many of us it is the toughest thing to cope with. Trouble with sleeping is a sign of stress - maybe it's the stress you need to tackle? However this is very difficult to reduce when life is so busy.
I wish I could offer some help or good advice - you are clearly trying everything. I do think the anxiety of feeling sleep deprived makes things worse and getting over this is really difficult, especially if you have kids to sort and you have to work.
I stopped HRT over two years ago (I'm 62 now) because the tummy cramps and erratic bleeding were getting worse and this kept me awake - also Utrogestan made me feel spaced out and detached from life. I still get flushes and overheat at night and I don't expect this to subside any time soon. My husband is also having difficultly with sleep - waking in the early hours and fidgeting but I think this is because he falls asleep in front of the TV during the evening.
SO, I took the drastic step of moving into the spare bedroom so I could control my sleeping environment and this has made a big difference. My husband isn't keeping me awake and I'm not disturbing him with my trips to the bathroom several times at night.
I do think it is about a different mindset - accepting that sleep won't always come easily and I actually feel reasonably good on 6-7 hours of sleep which includes at least 2 trips to the bathroom through this time. If you sleep from 10pm to 4am you are actually getting 6 hours sleep and this isn't that bad!!! SO try telling yourself that. Before I moved into the spare room I felt lucky to get even 3-4 hours sleep!
Try going to bed a bit later - maybe 10.30 or 11pm. Have you tried the 'THIS WORKS' pillow spray - I have found this works a bit for me because I often can't fall to sleep!!! If I can't sleep in the middle of the night I just concentrate on Mindfulness and totally relaxing.
My thoughts may not be of any help at all but sometimes just sharing our experiences and getting some empathy can help.
I take the antihistamine version of NYTOL or Sleepeeze sometimes and this will give me a good night without feeling too awful the next day.
You poor thing. DG x :bighug:
-
Hello no heroics please!
Sleep deprivation has turned me into a 46 year old looks 56!
I've given up on trying to get back to sleep. I get up and do jobs now.
During the day I'm tired but at least the house is immaculate and all my jobs are done and everyone goes to school on time and with everything they need.
I think my staff think I'm weird because I send them emails at 4am with plans for the day...
I think I get around 5 hours a night and DG has a good point - that's not too bad. 6 is better and I can function on that long term but 5 is doable xxx
I completely agree with your last three paragraphs and I could have written them.
Sending you lots of love,
Agatha C with dark circles under her eyes xx
-
Hi DG,
I`ve always been a very light sleeper and over the years have got more and more rubbish at sleeping. Generally I`m awake at 2...or 3... or 4 am till 6 or later. Doesn`t make a difference if I have alcohol, no alcohol, nytol, watch TV before bed or read, still the same sleep pattern. I try going in the spare room to read and it doesn`t really make a difference, emptying my mind (nope there`s always something that refuses to shift). But I haven`t had sleeping pills yet as actually as I`ve always been like it I can get away with very little sleep. Sure it`s not good for me though. Sorry I don`t have any solutions but just to let you know some of us are awake with you at 4am! x
-
Thanks all. I actually haven't slept in the same bed as my husband for the past 3 weeks. And before that, for a lot of the time. He's a terrible sleeper and he snores. It just adds fury to the night, for both him and I as it's not good for him when I'm tossing around. Despair is quite enough.
It's hard. I don't expect more than 6 hours. I'm happy with 6 unbroken hours. I use a sleeping pill from the US which is an antihistamine really. It's great the next day. But I'm aware that I can't rely on anything every night as that spells trouble..
It is what it is. I know I'm not alone. But it's SHITE. I've never had a flush or a night sweat. Just this. And emotional stuff. It's different for us all.
-
Since meno I have suffered slight insomnia, and even slightly affected me. I used phenergan a couple of times a week and that really helped. Then I was prescribed amitriptyline for nerve pain in my back and that was fantastic for sleep. I've been taken off them now because of worsening dry eye and at present on nothing while I pluck up the courage to start gabapentin. My sleep is still doing ok despite waking in the night with really bad back pain. I have come to the conclusion that I only need 5-6 hrs sleep a night nowadays, and I remember my mum saying she didn't need as much sleep as she got older x
-
I feel so sorry for you I've been the same for over 7 years but mine is the opposite..I can't fall asleep til 3 or 4am never before and gave to be up at 8.30 latest and it's totally ruined my life both physically and mentally. I've also tried EVERYTHING aa you can imagine. I moved to a separate room from my partner 2 years ago too it's been much better for him as I was keeping him awake and my hot sweats woke him up..it hasn't helped me get to sleep any better but means one of us gets a good night.
Nomoreheroics...I have tried uk antihistamines which haven't helped in fact given me extreme restless legs but you say you use a US antihistamine can you tell me which one please..I'm always up for trying anything.
-
Maybe you are stressing for nowt! As we age we apparently need less sleep. Also the more we worry the busier the brain gets so it stands to reason that we are overall, more lively. I can sleep on a linen line when my brain shuts down ....... not quite in the middle of a conversation but close!
Maybe you aren't getting enough carbohydrates and sugars, perhaps your body is hungry? Do you eat supper? A warm drink ...... any1 remember Horlicks :sick02: ;D :-X .........
I have a deep bubble bath and cuppa, most nights it relaxes me enough to sleep unless my brain suddenly has a flash back :'( which happen a lot at this time of year :-(
I found for years that a radio with soft music beside the bed at least kept my brain focussed. Then in 1980 I decided that actually, I hadn't died yet and nor did my work suffer how much sleep I didn't get. I slept well from that time apart from the odd nights: I either go to sleep deeply then wake within the hour and I'm awake for hours. Or I sleep well until the early hours and after a bathroom visit, stay awake! It's normal for me :-\.
Making a list of tomorrow's necessities might help. Out of your mind onto paper ...... I also have a paper and pen close by in case I think of something that needs doing. I am known to read or get up to make a cuppa to break the brain whizzing round.
Sleep deprivation is used as a torture method for obvious reasons. If antihistamines don't help your brain probably doesn't require them! It's OK to use a sleeping pill occasionally, I found taking 1 for 3 nights prior to a busy time helped. I also accept that some nights I don't get as much sleep as I think that I need.
-
Have you tried a tiny dose of mirtazapine? It's an antidepressant at 30-45mg, but is often prescribed at tiny doses of 3.75-7.5 mg for people who suffer from insomnia. I take 7.5mg and have found it very helpful - it knocks me for six! And I usually get 7-8 hours every night. The beauty of it is that it doesn't stop REM sleep which sleeping tablets and benzodiazepines often do - I also went to sleep in the spare room, it's black as pitch, I pop earplugs in, headphones on over the top to listen to a meditation and I'm gone within 30 minutes. I usually wake up quite refreshed 😁. From time to time (usually during prog part of cycle) I'll wake up at 2.30am on the dot, for those times I have some Xanax and will pop 1/2 a mg, this takes me through until about 5.30 when I have to get up....I honestly couldn't keep going how I was - a nervous wreck on no more than two hours a night.....
-
Hi,
I recently went to a sleep clinic for chronic insomnia, started with peri. He suggested 3 options, hrt, then if no joy, circadian - slow release melatonin (made my sleep worse) and then a low dose anti depressant. I haven't tried the last option as I have migraine and historically ADs make it worse. However could be helpful for you. The suggestion from him wasn't for depression but at a lower dose than used for depression for insomnia. If you are interested in the anti depressant suggestion I can look for the letter and let you know. He also told me all the sleep hygiene stuff, but, like you, makes no difference what I do, I am still awake half the night.
-
I wish I could remember where I read about this so I could share it with you. It was probably in the past 2 years and was so interesting I looked into it further and found other things to corroborate it.
We aren't designed to sleep for 7-8 hours in a row. Our sleep cycles go in 4 hour stints and depending on our own personal set-up, we will wake up at the end of a cycle. Many of us just go to the bathroom and then back to sleep. But back in time, in the 1600's and forwards, it was normal to go to bed early, wake in the early hours and get up for an hour or two. Neighbours would visit each other for social interaction or to share a small meal. Or they would read by candle or fire light, or just talk to each other. The main thing was that they got up and did something for an hour or two and then went back to bed for another sleep cycle. It was only the advent of the industrial revolution that stopped this because people were too exhausted to do anything other than sleep when they worked in the factories, half-starved and barely holding it together.
These wake/sleep cycles are controlled by cortisol. Cortisol is badly disrupted by hormonal changes because it's produced by the adrenal glands, which end up trying to fill the hormonal gaps by taking over production of flagging thyroid or sex hormones. You can't fight cortisol, you have to try to work with it. Have you tried adrenal supplements like adaptogens to help? You could try Holy Basil at bedtime for a month to see if it would break the cycle for you.
I experienced what you are experiencing earlier on in perimenopause. I realised that I was totally exhausted if I stayed in bed in the dark fretting about being awake. So I got up and did something relaxing for an hour (just like our ancestors but without knowing about that at the time.). I would sit at my desk in desk lamp light and colour or paint. Or sit on the sofa in lamplight and read. I would make a hot drink and eat an adrenal helpful snack (protein, salt and vitamin C). Then I'd start to feel a bit more relaxed and sleepy, I'd hang on a bit longer and then back to bed to sleep until I had to get up. It really, really helped. Your body is awake at that time because of hormones. You can't force it back to sleep so you need to adapt. If you have to get up by alarm then you will need to go to bed quite early. But that's OK because you will have an hour or two during the night to get more relaxation and personal time. You could even do some gentle yoga at that time.
That phase of my life has passed now, but even so, if I get a random night of sleeplessness I make myself get up for a bit. I was fascinated to find that this was normal and healthy for our ancestors. Some sleep experts think it is still good for us. It helps our brains to do what they have to do in the night. Knowing about the past gives us the permission to not feel stressed, anxious or bad about being awake. I did find a friend (sadly since died of cancer) who was going through the same thing. We often chatted on Facebook when we were up in the night and would treat it as social time.
-
SueLW, what an interesting post - thanks for this useful information.
Adrenal fatigue has to be be a key factor in the whole meno experience and yet is not discussed that widely - maybe the women who 'sail through' meno have healthy adrenals that kick in and produce estrone.
Cortisol/adrenaline surges and feelings of panic are so difficult to cope with in the darkness!
-
But I just have to vent that this is totally shit and I hate the menopause.
NoHeroics - sorry don't have anything to add - just totally sympathise - hope you find a way forward, it is all trial and error.
-
Yep - Neanderthal and Homo sapiens went to bed at dusk and up at dawn - partly due to the Sabre toothed beasties 'out side' the cave ;-). It is tiring being tired though I remember it well. I will be having a doze in a short while as I had a bad night :-\.
I found that taking a prescribed sleeping pill for 3 nights enabled me.
-
We aren't designed to sleep for 7-8 hours in a row. Our sleep cycles go in 4 hour stints and depending on our own personal set-up, we will wake up at the end of a cycle.
SueLW, I also read this not so long ago. It was probably in the Mail or Mail supplement. It was very interesting.
Ariadne xx
-
Thanks so much to all of you - some really helpful stuff here.
Sue, while i have no desire to have a snack with my neighbour at 2am, I do get up and 'accept' the sleeplessness!
Two things stand out that are a) a low dose anti-depressant - that might be worth exploring b) getting my adrenals sorted. i'm pretty sure they're empty. Everything else - all sleep hygiene is in place.
x
-
Eleanor, yes please - what is the name of the anti dep the doc suggested?
-
Re: Adrenal Fatigue - SueLW posted some great information on another thread that I can't find right now - suggesting food grade Vit C 1000mg x 3 times daily, B Complex, Magnesium, sea salt, lavender oil.
I've never experienced great sleep when on HRT, always insomnia/night sweats/washing machine brain - high to low dose, in fact I think it was worse on high. But hey ho, we're all different.
As an aside, just got a prescription of 10mg Amitriptyline AD which I'm going to break in half and take at night - apparently it's a useful sleep aid. Not comfortable taking ADs as none seem to agree with me, however will give it a try at this very low dose and hope the side effects aren't too bad. I'm trialling 3 months off HRT - yet again. Could be worth a try ....
-
My body isn't designed for a 4 hour sleep cycle. We tried the normal 4hrs on, 4 hrs off when we were ocean sailing. I got so tired on it I couldn't fuction properly so we changed to 6 hours.
I've been on 3 pumps of oestrogel to control low mood, anxiety & insomnia. On this dose only insomnia was a problem (could get to sleep but woke around 2-4am and stayed awake til 6). Several days ago I reduced it to 2 to see what happened, and I have had an uninterupted 6 hrs sleep most nights since. I am also wondering if too much oestrogen makes it worse.
-
I use 10mg Amitryptyline when I need to catch up, I got it a while back from my GP and didn't really want to use it but I have to say as long as I take it early eve, I am then able to fall asleep and stay asleep (or get back to sleep if I wake up), I used to feell quite groggy in the morning with it but if I get the timing right it works out fine. If you feel you've tried everything then yes all the advice above it good, you can't beat the hormones but you can help aid your sleep with sleeping aids. The estrogen point is very interesting, estrogen is a stimulant so would it not follow that too much leads to insomnia, nightmares etc? Although it's the drop in estrogen that causes the night sweats so people assume their estrogen is low if they have the sweats. I think my hormones are high and low all over the place at the moment still being in peri, so I'm thinking I just have to accept that some days will be worse than others depending where I am in my cycle and use sleeping aids when I need to. On top of the vitamins, sprays, herbal tea, banana eating and relaxation - of course!
-
Hello ladies.
Apart from some insomnia at the beginning of my meno journey my sleep hasn't been too bad, however my days are plagued by mood swings and anxiety.
Sheila99 - your experiences with 3 pumps of gel are very interesting. I was also on 3 pumps but had very tender breasts so reduced to two and that problem disappeared.
The juggling act we have to endure to feel even halfway normal is exhausting!
Wishing everyone well.
K.
-
Oh honey that sounds like a nightmare. Same here too especially now early dark nights I want go to bed at 6pm! I go at 10pm awake by 3sm and then attacked by dark thoughts for hours while I try to sleep.
You vent girl hope things improve soon I'd send you a hug but I bet we share sore boobs too haha take care xxxxxxx
-
I went through a very bad patch of insomnia in the summer. I was finally put on Mirtazapine 15mg and that sorted it. Saved my life! I have these past days tried to cut to 7.5 mg and do not sleep as well as I did. So will return to 15mg tomorrow . I am still perimenopausal at 48, but periods further apart. I used to have night sweats and hot flushes but strangely they have disappeared in the past few months.
I would say don't be afraid to try whatever remedy you are offered. I was so scared of meds but realised that I need help this time. Not everything works for everyone, we are so different.
So try and see what will work for you!
Milamam
-
If you are hungry, do you not eat :-\ ?
-
CKLD - not sure what your most recent post about hunger means?
For those of you taking small dosages of Anti=deps - are there side-effects? Are they addictive?
-
People seem worried about taking medication short-term to aid sleep - if the brain needs rest, why not? If you are hungry, do you not eat?
How was last night?
-
I was on 10mg amitriptyline, not addictive, brill for sleep BUT they made my dry eye worse (apparently)
I'm gutted as they were marvellous for my back pain x
-
We aren't designed to sleep for 7-8 hours in a row. Our sleep cycles go in 4 hour stints and depending on our own personal set-up, we will wake up at the end of a cycle.
SueLW, I also read this not so long ago. It was probably in the Mail or Mail supplement. It was very interesting.
Ariadne xx
I don't read the Mail so I didn't see it there. I think it was online, and quiet detailed. Also, there have always been night owls and early birds. Even back when people had no option other than to sleep when it got dark. Some would be awake and guarding the sleeping group, then swapping for sleep when others woke up.
-
I wish I could remember where I read about this so I could share it with you. It was probably in the past 2 years and was so interesting I looked into it further and found other things to corroborate it.
We aren't designed to sleep for 7-8 hours in a row. Our sleep cycles go in 4 hour stints and depending on our own personal set-up, we will wake up at the end of a cycle. Many of us just go to the bathroom and then back to sleep. But back in time, in the 1600's and forwards, it was normal to go to bed early, wake in the early hours and get up for an hour or two. Neighbours would visit each other for social interaction or to share a small meal. Or they would read by candle or fire light, or just talk to each other. The main thing was that they got up and did something for an hour or two and then went back to bed for another sleep cycle. It was only the advent of the industrial revolution that stopped this because people were too exhausted to do anything other than sleep when they worked in the factories, half-starved and barely holding it together.
These wake/sleep cycles are controlled by cortisol. Cortisol is badly disrupted by hormonal changes because it's produced by the adrenal glands, which end up trying to fill the hormonal gaps by taking over production of flagging thyroid or sex hormones. You can't fight cortisol, you have to try to work with it. Have you tried adrenal supplements like adaptogens to help? You could try Holy Basil at bedtime for a month to see if it would break the cycle for you.
I experienced what you are experiencing earlier on in perimenopause. I realised that I was totally exhausted if I stayed in bed in the dark fretting about being awake. So I got up and did something relaxing for an hour (just like our ancestors but without knowing about that at the time.). I would sit at my desk in desk lamp light and colour or paint. Or sit on the sofa in lamplight and read. I would make a hot drink and eat an adrenal helpful snack (protein, salt and vitamin C). Then I'd start to feel a bit more relaxed and sleepy, I'd hang on a bit longer and then back to bed to sleep until I had to get up. It really, really helped. Your body is awake at that time because of hormones. You can't force it back to sleep so you need to adapt. If you have to get up by alarm then you will need to go to bed quite early. But that's OK because you will have an hour or two during the night to get more relaxation and personal time. You could even do some gentle yoga at that time.
That phase of my life has passed now, but even so, if I get a random night of sleeplessness I make myself get up for a bit. I was fascinated to find that this was normal and healthy for our ancestors. Some sleep experts think it is still good for us. It helps our brains to do what they have to do in the night. Knowing about the past gives us the permission to not feel stressed, anxious or bad about being awake. I did find a friend (sadly since died of cancer) who was going through the same thing. We often chatted on Facebook when we were up in the night and would treat it as social time.
Hello SueLW,
Very interesting, thank you. That sounds like my cat's sleeping patterns. ::) ;D
Conolly X
-
No heroics, on your question - ADs are not addictive. They require tapering off (some of them). But once you get to the right dose that alleviates symptoms for you, you don't need to increase in order to obtain the same effect ( which is what is not true for benzo's and other addictive drugs like opioids).
I agree with CKLD - needs first!
Milamam
-
:thankyou:
I had to taper off one type of ADs, it took 9 weeks. Still here and I have never got addicted to anti-anxiety meds. because I know it works for me.
-
I only use 10mg when I need to so days when I don't have a really early start for example, the feeling of having a full nights sleep and rested in the morning is amazing and I think it gives me confidence for the day ahead and generally improves my mood and resilience for coping. the nights where I lie awake all night worrying about everything including all my symptoms are just not worth the worry and stress, I am still trying to track when these nights happen, sometimes it's when I think I've done everything right! such as exercise, vitamins, eating etc. So I've decided I can't fight these hormone highs and lows, I am trying to work with them and if it means a sleeping aid from time to time then I think that's fine. Good luck everyone x