Menopause Matters Forum
General Discussion => This 'n' That => Topic started by: Lady Daviot on December 23, 2017, 06:04:55 PM
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Hi all, my family and I face yet another protential Xmas being ruined by the strops thrown by my demenading elderly mother who is on her own. Since a child, all I have ever wanted to do was please her and I feel that I have gone out of my way as an only child to please her. Over the years I have supported her emotionally even to the detriment to my own health and the £££ that I have spent doing nice things for her is staggering. But as I approach with my husband and young daughter a time we should be spending on being happy with loads of events and special trips planned around the Narricenst, then she throws a stupid strop to create friction and behave like a child. I am sad once more and anxious as I don't want her to spend Xmas alone but clearly this is what she wants to happen so all the rest of our extended family have pity on her and I am the bad daughter once more. I have tried to get her counselling and she was advised by the GP to try some AD's but would not take them. I am determined that as I go into 2018 that things have to change as it is not healthy and my young daughter tells me that Grannie tells her she must have a horrid life with me!. My mother always wants me to either stay at hers or she decamps to ours for weeks on end. If we plan any family time we are made to feel guilty. Sorry for the rant, maybe I just need to vent and I only wished that I had had some counselling for myself, a goal for 2018.
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Mine is the same. It takes some getting my head round at times. Me, me, me ....... but she is subtle. No one else sees how she is!
I've read a book recently 'living with toxic people' I think it's called. Get into the mindset that she can't help it. Something to do with how your Mum was raised, that she was never challenged or if she was, that other people stood down rather thank standing their ground against her. So 'bad habits' become engrained.
So: your Mother is alone at C.mas. So what. You were 'given away' to the man you married ;-). No longer your Mother's responsibility. OK so our parents age and may require more care, but it isn't up to us to take on their needs. In the New Year put together a list of local agencies close to your mother and being making notes. Day Centres. WI. Church Groups. Offer them up and if she says 'no', tell her that "You are a Big Girl Now so are perfectly capable of making your own entertainment."
What does your husband suggest that you do in order to avoid as much stress as possible? I had to take a large step back but I have 2 hour journey so can put some distance between us.
Why tell your Mother your plans? Maybe make a decision that as from 1 Jan., you, your husband, child and friends will do stuff without your Mother 'needing' to know? It took me a few years to realise that actually, my parents no longer had 'rights' to what I did, who I saw, where we went ::).
Does your Mother have a key to your property, if so, change the locks pronto! Your House, Your Rules. You don't have to give any reasons, other than explaining that your security was compromised. End of conversation. It's about mind set which takes a while to kick in.
As we go back to the parental 'home' many of us go back to being children again. Certainly it happens to me as I slip back into the routine under that roof. Even though Mum no longer lives there, we stick to her routines ::).
What are the Plans that have been jeopardised? Maybe tell your Mother that you all have a 'bug' ;-) and that you will be in touch mid-January.
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Lady Daviot
I can really relate to your dilemma. You are the one that needs counselling to help you find a way forward to release you from her controlling ways.
There will be strategies you can deploy but it's difficult without find these without some independent help.
I had counselling for a year and I actually detached myself as much as possible from my mother for quite some time - I took control and she gradually had to learn to be more cooperative and appreciative. You mustn't care what others think and you do need to keep your daughter away from her if your mother belittles you. If your daughter is old enough to understand, then you need to talk to her about this issue so your mother can't create a rift.
Your mother controls things cause you allow her to - I did the same for many years - you can change this. DG x
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Thanks to you all for your comments and advise, your are completely right and I need to grow up too as I have been letting her get away with this most of the time for a quiet life and because she is getting older. My husband is raging about her behaviour and only holds back because I ask him too. I had already looked at counselling for myself as when I tackle or try to help my mum with clubs/counselling etc she is not interested, it's like nothing I can do is good enough or helpful. I do think she is depressed but I also think she is bitter about life and generally she does not have a good thing to say about anybody. Thank you guys so much for being an ear. Merry Xmas to you all when it comes xxx
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Lady daviot
I completely agree with the other comments. Read my previous posts this time last year in private lives.
My mind set now with my narcissistic mum and mum in law is let them be like that, me stressing out won't make any difference, so now I just do what I need to do for me and they either fit in or lump it! It's taken me a lifetime to arrive where I am and I'm hanging onto it.
Take care
Xx
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walkingthedog - I think I remember your posts last year - good to hear you have taken control back.
My mother is very different now - she still has her bitter rants but since we moved her nearer, so now with 3 of her children near by, between us we can control her better - she can't vie one against the other because we liaise and find out what's really going on - it's a vicious circle of bitterness and resentment that allows them to carry on behaving like spoilt little toddlers. Ignoring the bad behaviour is the best way. DG x
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I thought about you a lot in the last few days ::)
Mine is now in a Care Home and is already fixated on 'stuff'. Like a new resident who calls out a lot ........ "She shouldn't be here disturbing others!" well Mum, this isn't your home now and like X, you are a resident. This is not a nursing home so the Staff will encourage you to dress yourself etc. "But they are bullying me dear or they ignore me completely".
When we went into the Day Room on C.mas morning her attitude changed to bright and smilie at the click of fingers :-\
How did *U* get on? They are where they are from years of practice and from years of others complying, because those who don't live in the situation can't possibly imagine the manipulation etc. that goes on. I decided years ago that my Husband COMES FIRST and God, does Mum not like that from me ;D. She wants me to be worried about her - nope, once I leave her that's it ....... she has plenty of people around to help if necessary.
This weekend it's been "I'm going to jump in the river" because she can't get issues sorted ....... so I opened the French doors and suggested that "It's raining so I owiuldn't bother this morning, it's too wet". Himself got it ;-). We are unable to change them, it's about being 1 step ahead and not falling into their habits!!
Hints anyone, on a Postcard please ;)
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Also - you are SO NOT a bad daughter !
Remember: if 20 people are in the same room at the same time as an incidence, each will remember what happened completely differently!
So - you know how your Mother affects you. Regardless of her age, let her go. Stick to 1 phone call a week and have an excuse if she rings more often. Change the locks. She doesn't need to know or tell her that security has been compromised, you can also say that the Insurance Company has restrictions on how is allowed the keys ...........
It's about being prepared!
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Please please don't beat yourself up. I am 67 now and my whole life my mother ruled the roost. Recently I read a book by Terri Apter called Difficult Mothers and I wish it had been written when I was young. I recommend it to everyone as it unlocked the guilt for me which I carried long after my mother was gone . I feel sad when I read that others have gone through these things and the scars stay with us for along long time. I still don't understand why people who are supposed to unconditionally love us do these things.
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Hi Lady Davlot, just wanted to say I really empathise. My difficult relationship with my Mum when I was growing up has effected so many other relationships in my life, especially those with female friends. I spent my childhood constantly trying to please my Mum, not understanding she suffers from depression and mood swings, and always feeling her dark moods when she wouldn't speak to me for days were my fault. I ended up being a door mat with friends, constantly trying to please them and putting my needs last, as that's the way I thought I should be. I'm now better than I was and my Mum is better with me - I think because we don't live near each other it's easier - but if I get the slightest hint of her being in a bad mood with me, I feel so anxious and sick. I still tread on eggshells around her and do everything I can to please her to avoid her getting upset. I don't want to show my children the way I'm behaving though - I want them to have the self esteem and self confidence I lack. It is incredibly difficult to overcome habits engrained in childhood though. I am worried about what will happen when she's older, I think she will outlive my Dad and I'm sure she'll constantly make me feel guilty if I don't visit enough. I have just looked up the books Linde recommended (Difficult Mothers by Terri Apter) and it looks very helpful - I'm going to order it now, thanks for recommending it x
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LucyLoo - stop enabling your mother! Not easy to step back. If I heard raised voices when Mum was in her house, i.e. when she talked loudly to Himself whilst I was in the bath above the kitchen ........ my gut would tense. Even after all these years, we married in the 1970s and moved Well Away. Old habits really do remain.
What's the worst that can happen if you confront your Mum? One issue at a time. Pick your arguments ;-). Make a list of what habits she has which you react to. Then decide which is the easiest to walk away from. Mine has muttered all year that "I wish that I had died at C.mas" [12 months and 1 day ago she had a bad fall in her house and the milkman found her, called an Ambulance then let me know. Ever since ...... when things went 'wrong' for Mum!] so when we were there and she went into "I wish I had died" mode I turned quickly, explained that any more of that and I would go back home and that would be IT!!! she shut up 8)
Not as easy when she went on and on about issues on the 'phone. Stuck record however, she is!
I really don't understand guilt :-\
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Thanks CLKD - I know you're right and I'm enabling my mother. My sister is much stronger than me and stands up for to her. I know I need to stand up to her too - as you say, what's the worse that could happen? I need to feel the fear and do it anyway! Thanks for your advice on making a list, I think that will help a lot. It sounds like you're doing so well standing up to your mother when she tries to make you feel guilty. I don't think it's ever easy to do it but worth it in the long run.
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It's interesting how many of us seem to have (had) narcissistic mothers as mine definitely was. I'm wondering if it's a generational thing, as looking back my grandmother definitely supported, possibly even encouraged, my mother's narcissistic ways. My mother was an only child and utterly spoilt by her parents. She also spent almost every day of her life with her mother and expected me to do the same, and did her best to make me feel guilty when I moved away / escaped. Sadly I did because I'd been conditioned by her and my grandmother, but I was also able to see things from a distance and realise that I would be better off as far away as possible.
Unfortunately I was an only child so when my father died I did what was necessary to ensure she was safe, had a roof over her head, and ate properly, but I did it purely out of duty, definitely not love. I also knew that despite not liking or loving her I could not allow her to suffer, and I knew I would feel guilty if anything bad happened to her.
I think guilt is something else that my mother conditioned into me at an early age. She constantly had to be the centre of attention, the most loved person, etc. and if she wasn't then she blamed by father and me so she made us responsible for her happiness and if she wasn't happy then it was our fault. So I grew up feeling guilty every time she was unhappy and feeling like I had to do what she wanted so she would be happy because only her happiness mattered. Sad really, and I'm thankful every day that I did escape and that I have managed to spend more than 50% of my life away from her.
I think we all fear what might happen if we don't do what they want. If anything bad happens then we'd feel like it was our fault / guilty, especially as we've been conditioned to believe that we are responsible for their happiness, and that bad things happen if they aren't happy.
Oops, sorry for the long, and probably unhelpful post! To the OP I think the best thing you can do is compartmentalise your life so that you have time / things that you do with your mother then the rest of the time is for you and your family. Suggest doing things with your mother that you want to do, and if she doesn't want to do them then go do them on your own or with your family. Give your mother information about local clubs, support organisations, etc. and leave it up to her to either use them or ignore them. She's an adult and you can't make her do something, but you're also an adult so she shouldn't make you do anything either.
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Hi getting_old, what a helpful post, thank you so much. I identify with so much you say. I really like your compartmentalising idea, I think this will help me a lot. I hope your post helps the OP too x
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I think our mothers were the post war women who were mostly expected to stay home and care for the family. They never had the opportunities our generation had ( we have been the trail blazers in many ways) so there is naturally resentment that we have perhaps led more varied and fulfilling lives. I know my mother is very bitter and resentful, she is a master of manipulation. There is definitely an expectation by many of that generation that we would be available to look after them as they aged - life has changed so much and it has left them behind - we have to work longer and often have children that need support for longer.
The worrying thing for me is that the balance of society is really 'out of true' - when we get to our 70s, 80s and 90s, we will be in the majority and who is going to take care of us??? Our children will certainly not be in a position to help and I certainly wouldn't them to give up their lives to look after me - shoot me if I treat my kids the way my mother has treated me. DG x
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My Mum often tells me "I gave you children wings to fly" .............
She has fortunately never made us feel that we have to go visit with her (M in L wouldn't be the 'interfering mother in law' but had subtle ways of letting us know that we weren't visiting often enough >:( - "I haven't seen anyone all weekend" for example. But she would moan when people stopped to talk to her when she was weeding her front garden ::)
It's hard to drop the guilt. Mum nor my sister are people who I would choose to spend time with and I go to see DH's family because he is SO good to me.
Yep Stellajane - Mum moved into a care home but now she is fixating on things that are nowt to do with her!
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Hi ladies.
I too had a mother like this...she died seven years ago at 67 ...sounds awful but saved me from the situation you find yourselves in- I hadn't seen her for six years prior to her sudden death...did I feel guilty ..no....had she been my partner...would I have put up with it...again no! It's our life, choices and future decisions...as you know I have had many issues with my DD in recent months...again...I wouldn't tolerate her as a partner so I won't as my daughter...
Woodlands xx
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I read recently that we are NOT responsible for how others react to what we do, say, suggest etc.. Once the news is out there, it is up to them who they react. However, old habits die hard and families in particular get used to reacting in certain ways which become 'expected'. It took a stranger to point out how I "came over" to others because I was very rigid in my thinking. He taught me how to relax and not snap without thinking ........ DH had got so used to my reactionary nature that he was able to shut off.
What's the worst that can happen if we change a routine/tradition?
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Crikey ;D I have lots of posts :-X where as LucyLoo has 0 ....... :-\
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I was going to post this to Lucyloo as CLKD said she had 0 - I now realise what you mean CLKD ! :worm: so posting to both now lol ;)
Narcisstic mother and 100% toxic - still around at 80 and is a poor old woman who has no money (spent it all on herself, when I had a Saturday and holiday job from age 13 - 18 I had to give her my pay packet as I was eating in her house! I did more than my fair share of the housework so was just a doormat, but still tried so hard to please her) My sister is a mummy's girl and has been for 55 years, she is also toxic and to be avoided. I havn't spoken to either in almost 10 years and my life is so much better. We have a brother who I get on with but sister hates, he visits TM but doesnt put up with her nonesense, but it gets to him. After a drink too many at Christmas he told me that my TS and TM think I'm schizophrenic (I'm not) because I tell lies (I don't) and I'm "unstable" as I was on anti-depressants because of Toxic parents (I had bad post natal depression brought on by a huge row because of the date we chose for child 2's christening and it didn't suit them!!)
This is not really a sob story as I decided when I was 50 that enough was enough, and neither me nor my family were going to be miserable due to their narcisstic ways. It's not worth having a miserable life - it's THEIR choice to treat us like dirt so we can choose NOT to be treated that way. I blame my father as he could not stand up to her and sister was his favourite (told me when I was 12 and she was 8 that as we were both his daughters, he could pick a favourite if he wanted to) I remember nice walks with him before she was born and he would read lots to me, sadly it was his choice to behave as he did.
I'm off to bed now to see if I can sleep ! :bed: (there will be none of that!)
Poppi x
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Love your post, Poppi❣️
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Thank you Conolly! Wish I'd discovered this site earlier as I realise I'm certainly not alone and that makes a huge difference. Someone on another thread said that women who sail through menopause have absolutely no idea what it's like to suffer as we do. Well it's the same for adult kids with narcissistic/toxic mothers. I will never forget the 1st time I met my mother in law. After we'd had our tea she came to help me with the dishes! I found this so strange as my TM always sat on her fat bum while I cleared+washed dishes, toxic sister dried! MiL couldn't understand TM behaving like that.
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I recently read a book that tried to tell me that once we have given someone information it is up to them how they process it! whether it's in a work situation or at home, in the face, briskly walking with friends. However, habits in childhood have a way of perpetuating as everyone slips into 'their place' within the group ::)
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Very true CKLD.
When I had counselling, most of my sessions were based around my relationship with my mother and how I could deal with her going forward. My therapist described the way I responded to my mother's behaviour as “my mother had trained me well†- I had learned from very young that I had to react and behave in a way that suited my mother, not me. My approach to so many things in my life were also then more about appeasing and pleasing rather than doing what was right for me. My mother had always come first.
Today, my mother's manipulation reared it's ugly head again - I wasn't feeing too well today (sore throat) so she managed to rile me and twisted things to be my fault. I can now rationalise these episodes better thanks to the counselling I had all those years ago. My therapist told me to imagine there is bin between my mother and me and any vicious, unkind or manipulative words from my mother had to go straight in that bin. That bin came out today.
Dg x
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Whoops - did anyone note that I'd mentioned that book twice >:( ;D
Love your therapist's idea of a bin DG - will try to remember that at our next visit 2 see Mum ::).
Do you feel better today? :bighug:
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Hello ladies,
Great thread and posts, Dancinggirl and CLKD! 😊
Off to buy a big bin...
Conolly X
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Thank you CKLD - My throat is still very sore today - very annoying.
I can shrug off my mother's comments far better now I use the ‘bin'. DG x
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It's attitude as well, words simply 'won't do' with mine ::) there has to be actions as well >:(
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When I had counselling, most of my sessions were based around my relationship with my mother and how I could deal with her going forward. My therapist described the way I responded to my mother's behaviour as “my mother had trained me well†- I had learned from very young that I had to react and behave in a way that suited my mother, not me. My approach to so many things in my life were also then more about appeasing and pleasing rather than doing what was right for me. My mother had always come first.
This is exactly what happened with me. In recent years I realised that I had been brought up to make sure my mother was happy at the expense of everyone else, including myself. It's so sad that so many of us were brought up in this way, and the impact it's had on our lives. I am embarrassed to say that when I first got married I behaved a bit like my mother, but fortunately I got away from her and saw how others behaved and changed how I behaved.
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getting_old - yes, once I realised how much my mother had influenced my behaviour, it changed so many things for the better. I didn't allow the emotional blackmail to work on me as it used to and subsequently her behaviour improved. However, a lion doesn't change her spots so I have to be on my mettle. I do understand why my mother is the way she is (her childhood was far from good) so continue to do my best for her but it's on my terms. I am one of four children and she has blighted all our lives one way or another. Like you, I have learned from others and will never treat my children the way my mother has treated us. DG x
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Leopard even ??? ;). I tended to act like my Dad had done when first married ............ gradually my attitude changed >phew<. Now I can see why my Dad acted as he often did :'( because of Mum's narcissism :-\
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Ladies, I wanted to thank you all for sharing your experiences. I haven't posted on this matter since before Xmas as I gave in and let the Narcissist, stay with us as it was her 70th Birthday and everyone else seems to be fend up of her. Well as I should have guessed she spoiled Xmas and New Year and nothing was good enough for her and her sarcastic tongue. We are not speaking again ( well I am just giving her a wide berth ). She has now taken to FB to share many of her usual posts about families in conflict and you should also love your mother because when she is dead posts!. I have started a new job so when I have time, this month I am going to sort out counselling for myself as I need to be the best mum 8 year old daughter. It breaks my heart and I feel I have to grieve for a mother I don't and haven't really known, who is so bitter towards me. I am such a soft touch and like to think that I have a caring nature but even I know I have come to the end of the road and I am very sad about it in so many ways. I was an only child and for most for my early years it was just Mum and me, but looking back even then her actions towards me were not of a caring mother.
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Interestingly my mother had a wonderful childhood. She was a totally spoilt only child who got whatever she wanted, and her mother lived with us when I was growing up and totally supported her behaviour and ensured that my Dad and I knew that the most important thing was to make my mother happy. :'(
You have made the first step Lady D, in recognising that there is a problem, and moving forward I hope the counselling will help. It's going to be hard but I'm sure your daughter and husband will appreciate a life with less drama. :bighug:
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LadyD - mourn. She isn't the mother you needed. Regardless of how she was parented! However, humans tend to take on persona of those who went B4, I saw it with my Dad ..... and could so easily have turned into him. But I stepped back.
Watching my Mum with the Staff in her Care Home shows that she a) needs someone to moan at with regards to perceived 'problems', i.e. noise. b) it's me she will have a go at because it's a bad habit. c) she has NO idea how she comes over to others. We all need someone to moan to about various issues don't we: but Mum goes on and on and - like a stuck record. :'(
When I tell her that my husband is the most important person in my Life she bristles, openly LOL! I've told that to people since she went into care, those who suggested "You no longer have to worry about your Mum". Well actually, I have never worried about her. She had a group of people who would help: "But I don't want to be a nuisance Dear", "They don't have time to bother with me Dear", "I can't keep asking them Dear" - well Mum, don't ask then. She had people in the Church as well as neighbours. I told her often when she moaned, "You are a Big Girl now who can make her own decisions about who to ask if necessary".
Ladies, I wanted to thank you all for sharing your experiences. I haven't posted on this matter since before Xmas as I gave in and let the Narcissist, stay with us as it was her 70th Birthday and everyone else seems to be fed up of her. Well as I should have guessed she spoiled Xmas and New Year and nothing was good enough for her and her sarcastic tongue. We are not speaking again ( well I am just giving her a wide berth ). She has now taken to FB to share many of her usual posts about families in conflict and you should also love your mother because when she is dead posts!. I have started a new job so when I have time, this month I am going to sort out counselling for myself as I need to be the best mum 8 year old daughter. It breaks my heart and I feel I have to grieve for a mother I don't and haven't really known, who is so bitter towards me. I am such a soft touch and like to think that I have a caring nature but even I know I have come to the end of the road and I am very sad about it in so many ways. I was an only child and for most for my early years it was just Mum and me, but looking back even then her actions towards me were not of a caring mother.
Your Mum is a Big Girl. She's made her attitude quite clear to you. Now is the time to concentrate on your family and daughter. Firstly, to protect your mental health you need to distance yourself. It gets easier, trust me ;-). You are very astute about the situation you find yourself in. I look at mine sometimes and think "Are you really the person others think that they know or is this the 'real' you". :-\.
R U able to block her FaceBook comments? I don't know how FB works - R U able to stop going to FB at all for 3 months ...... that way you don't have her mutterings interfering with your healing process. Often Mum would ring me (in the 1990s) ranting - I would then stew about how to help whereas she had dumped on me, got on with sorting issues and moved on. I can't tell you the hours I spent trying to find solutions! whereas in fact, she doesn't want them.
On Sat. when mine was complaining (again) about noise in the rooms along her corridor at the Care Home - and I mean she was getting quite het up about it all ......... insisting that she couldn't sleep whereas the hourly records show that she slept right through ::) - I got up and told her "I'll go and speak to the Manager in the Office". Her demeanour altered, "I'll live with the noise for another week and you can sort it next time you are here". So she doesn't want solutions! I know that noise in particular is a huge botheration World wide because we can't control it nor turn it off (4 me it's barking dogs down our street :bang: :bang: :bang: and lack of consideration that owners don't seem to hear them) and I realise that Mum has little way of getting away from the noise .........
I think I've meandered enough ;D
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Sad that StellaJane disappeared :-\
I have a Narcasstic mother and sister :-X ……. if you read 'daughters of narcisstic mothers' you'll see that it isn't 'you', it's her condition. Apparently not diagnosed until 1988! you are not alone and I think that sometimes a non-contact regime gives the sufferer breathing space. I'm only hanging in there because we have distance and Mum is very active. Also, I want to see the 'end of the story' …… but sometimes :bang:. It's the way others fuss round her which of course she likes ……… but I can walk into her house and she'll stand in the kitchen, rigid, arms down her sides - no emotional contact at all :-\
. - a comment from me in 2017
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Mine has been OTT in recent works. Venting down the 'phone at me. I think I've been her safety valve. There is no follow through in that she never rings to update me. It's out of her brain, down the 'phone and away. She will not remember if I remind her.
I do like to help her open any gifts on C.mas Day and clear away the paper etc., we take it away rather than adding it to the rubbish at the Home. I expect that we will cook our meal on C.Eve at her house [it won't sell B4 January], have it cold the next day in our car ;D whilst she's eating in the Home with paper hats etc. then spend the afternoon with her. Although she does say that she is thankful for 'all that we do' I don't think that she realises exactly the effort ::).
But I feel GOOD [as long as anxiety doesn't take over :-\ ]. Duty Done.
How you all doing with yours?