Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Other Health Discussion => Topic started by: countrybumpkin on January 26, 2017, 02:42:21 PM
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I have posted about this before and you have all been lovely. I had a bad bout of this October last year but thankfully it passed in a couple of weeks with help of some sleeping pills.
I have been very stressed with the death of my close friend and the week of almost living at the hospital before her death. I slept fine during all this but a few days after she died I went to bed and was wide awake all night and again the next night. I bought some over counter nytol from pharmacy and for past 4 night I have only got to sleep about 3 hrs after I take them and then only for about 4hr max. As you can imagine I don't feel great!
I have GP appt today and will discuss and hopefully get my usual medication for these attacks of diazepam and sleeping pills for max of 2 weeks. The diazepam usually lowers my severe anxiety enough that I can then start sleeping.
I am just wondering if anyone else has severe anxiety with sleeplessness?
I have been told that I can have a referal to psych with this but the wait is 6 months, as I can, some years go up to 7 months okay, I have never taken them up on the offer but maybe I should?
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Country bumpkin, dont have much to offer in regards to treatments, but didn't want to just read and run! I suffer from insomnia too, its either I can't get to sleep until about 4 in the morning, or the reverse, I fall asleep ok but am awake from about 4. Once it gets a hold I seem to enter a loop where it just goes on for weeks on end. I try and cope by telling myself Ive no pressure to perform as such the next day and can go back to bed if needed, though I never do. I definitely have no bother sleeping if Ive had a busy day, like when I am up from six to care for my grandchildren, but its the in-between days that I find problematic.
You are bound to feel a bit low of mood since the death of your friend, and the insomnia could be a natural part of the grief process. I hope the Diazepam and sleeping tablets help you get back to a normal pattern again. I cant see any harm in getting on the waiting list for the Psych referral, and by the time it comes round you can either go or cancel depending on how you are feeling then.
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Poor you! Obviously coped during your friend's final days but now it's catching up with you. Maybe contact Cruise ? [can't remember whether this was your choice?] or see if Age UK have a talking service?
Grief takes it's time. Could you write a memorial journal about your friend, a way of sorting out your thoughts and feelings? There is no time line for grieving.
Hopefully your chosen aids to sleep will ease your insomnia.
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Thanks both. I have had this problem since I was a child so rather a long time and I know whats behind it due to childhood trauma, I tried cbt a few times but it has not helped. The GP has referred me to a psychologist but there will be quite a wait.
The death of friend and her husband who has no family and few friends has triggered my childhood fear of being left alone and for some reason not being able to fall asleep is the biggest trigger for the severe anxiety I experienced as a child to rear its head again. This not being able to fall asleep has always been the biggest trigger and it is time for me to try and beat the little xxx! If it only affects me once a year then thats fine but its not twice in three months.
The GP is young so they are much more reluctant to use drugs especially the diazepam but she has given me just a few days of this and 14 days of sleeping pills but I am to not take every night, she said as i know that if you have a couple of nights of no sleep then eventually even the most anxious mind will sleep sometime. My husband laughed and said she doesnt know how bad your anxiety is and how powerful it is at stopping you sleeping ::)
So wish me luck.
At some point my brain will flick a swich and I will be back to normal and then will be so embarrased about what a fuss I have made, the gp was kind enough to say she sees such alot of patients with my problem but not my extreme anxiety around it - hence the referral.
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DO NOT be embarrassed. Childhood worries can drip feed down the years >:(! I lived in a restless household from the age of 3 when raised voices were heard each evening, now I have realised why [long story short] but it doesn't stop my gut clenching if I hear raised voices!
You know that this will pass and you know the reason/s behind not being able to sleep. That doesn't help with solving the issue! I think that talking therapy - getting it out of your brain and away - may well help! Certainly being able to vent in a secure room with someone who had no idea of my history: who could not say "That couldn't have happened in *your* family" made a huge difference as to sorting some of my anger issues.
Could you ring to see who will be your therapist? It may be that they do private consultants which might be the way to go? Starting the process and then you can see if you can revert to their NHS sessions?
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private therapy is very expensive although its probably well worth the money but I will wait and see how long the wait is - think it will be 3-4 months if I am lucky. Once i find out more I can look into it further.
I spent childhood in absolute terror so no suprising that I am a bit loopy as an adult ;D
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I also suffered with severe insomnia brought on by menopause. The only thing that helped me is HRT. I don't know if you are using it or not but it's definitely worth considering if you're not.
Your doctor is right to be very wary of prescribing diazepam or any sleeping medication for that matter. I became dependent on diazepam after taking it for a fairly short period of time and it mesed up my life for about 4 years. Don't underestimate how insideous those medications are and the more you use them the more susceptible you can be to their affect.
Fortunately doctors now are being trained in the dangers of benzos and that's why she is reluctant to prescribe it.
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My aunty was on valium for years and she had to come off it very very slowly back in the 1970's. Sadly I seem to take after her alot as she had alot of anxiety issues all her life.
The GP did say she was more worried about the diazepam than the zopiclone. I said that I usually only take one every few nights and put maybe over 2-3 weeks and seh was happy with this. I do worry though about what will happen if I still can't sleep after a few weeks - its my worrying that needs addressing!
I am already in a blue funk just thinking about going to bed tonight, trying hard not to cry my eyes out in fear :(
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Thinking of you Countrybumpkin, and hope your fears are unfounded and you manage some rest, both mentally and physically .
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Countrybumpkin, my sympathies about your loss and anxiety/sleeplessness. For myself, I find that magnesium oil spray is hugely helpful in overcoming sleeplessness (mine also anxiety-related). It's absorbed transdermally - I think that's the word - i.e. through the skin. The vast majority of times that I use it, I manage to get back to sleep and wake up feeling refreshed. I know you're being helped by your GP, but just to throw in my penny-worth.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
Dulciana
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I take magnesium supplement but will look into the spray instead. I didn't know it could be used for this purpose.
How much do you use can I ask?
I took one sleeping pill last night and woke up again after 2 hrs!!! Had a good talk to my husband about everything as he also woke up and after offloading ;) felt more relaxed and did go back to sleep but haven't had a nights sleep without either nytol or sleeping pill yet.
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I take magnesium supplement but will look into the spray instead. I didn't know it could be used for this purpose.
How much do you use can I ask?
Two or three sprays, countrybumpkin, which are then rubbed in. On the bottle, they recommend applying to clean skin (whicvh I take to mean - just after a bath) for best effect.
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Thanks for that.
We have reclining stressless chairs and I reclined one slightly and shut my eyes earlier not thinking i would fall asleep but over space of 30 mins I woke up twice with my mouth wide open and loud snores then finally my head fell to one side and i thought i had fallen out of the chair ;D So glad my husband was not in the room to see me!
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;D I bet you were!
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Once my GP prescribed anxiety medication 'as necessary' without querying my request, I didn't need to use it as often because it's there as a back up ;)
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Knowing you have the medication helps enormously. I slept ok last night usual waking every 3 hrs but thats normal for me.
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Do you feel better now?
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BAck to square one last night >:( Was awake till 4 am when I took one nytol tablet and finally went to sleep. I know its all in my head and this is following normal pattern in I have have one good night then some bad ones until eventually usually I get back to normal iffy sleep pattern.
I really need to find a way to not panic if I don't go to sleep within half an hour of going to bed. Thats it. sounds so easy yet so far has been impossible to overcome!
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I did mention this in my previous post but I don't think you said if you are on HRT or not. If not please consider it because it was the only thing that solved my severe insomnia. You may have anxiety issues that are affecting your sleep but if hormones are also a factor that is going to make it worse.
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I have been suffering with actute attacks like this since I was in my early 20's. I have had good years where I have only had it once or twice but some really bad years. I remember in my late 20's taking sleeping pills on and off for over 6 months. Usually it passes in a couple of weeks. I tend to obsessively worry about something until the next thing comes along and I am sure this is part of whatever is wrong with my head!
I am sure my friends death has been the trigger this time. Which is why I have agreed to psychology referral.
I am now 5 yrs post meno and the only thing I noticed its that I wake up more often in the night. Sadly I have strong family history of breast and ovarian cancer so hrt is just not an option. Vagifem is as far as I can go!
Another nightmare night last night. Thought i would see if I could fall asleep myself but by4am I was still wide awake. I took a nytol tablet and slept for 4 hrs but as soon as i woke up I was hit with severe anxiety so no chance of further sleep.
I have been here so many times before and really do think I am losing my marbles when I am like this. I know its the anxiety flooding my mind that is stopping me sleeping and can only hope that as in the past it burns itself out eventually. :'(
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Hi Countrybumkin,
Have you tried valerian ,it can be useful ?
Also try having a long soak in an Epsom salts bath before bedtime,if nothing else it really does relax muscles and adds minerals to your skin. Also no electronic devices 2 hours before bed,if reading in bed good old books ! I suffer with bad insomnia and for this reason refuse to have TV in bedroom.
Wishing you an answer to your prblem soon.
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Dazned, glad I am not alone as in the middle of the night it feels like I am the only person awake in the world! I am doing everything you say already. I have tried valerian and melatonin in the past but the valerian gives me acid reflux which is a shame as I think if you take it regularly it really can help.
Do you get up and do things when you can't sleep or do you stay in bed? I find that if I get up and do anything this wakes me up even more although staying in bed at moment isn't working either!
Do you have totally sleepless nights like I do or just sleep badly all the time? HOpe you don't mind me asking.
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Sometimes if I cant sleep I put light on and read ,I dont usually get up,I know that they say get up and do something but like you I find that makes me wide awake ! >:(
I have experienced times where I literally have not slept at all,which has lasted for months on end and I used to get myself really het up about but now I just accept that's just how it goes sometimes and that nobody ever died from not sleeping ;)
At present it's just very,very interrupted sleep,continually tossing and turning all night long from one side of bed to another ,feel like I 've walked miles in morning ! It's for this reason DH and I have seperate rooms unfortunately,else he'd get no rest whatsoever ! I'm not worrying about anything or have anything on my mind particularly it's just that good sleep wont come . However we moved to a totally different part of UK in August so I am putting it down to that. Luckily I'm not working at present however even when I was it didnt seem to make much difference. I have started to go to bed later which does seem to help . It's really distressing though so I do empathize with you.
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You've had colds :-\ Dazned? or does my brain deceve me ?
I round the radio on quietly beside the bed helped a lot. I would pretend that I was ice-skating ::)
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Yes we have both still got colds which I agree doesnt help but I wasn't sleeping well before they came. ::)
Also Radio 4 is very good for helping you zone out,some of the voices are very soothing.
Were you a good skater CLKD ?? ;D
I remember years ago having a Stephen King audio book called Thinner,the narrators voice was hypnotic ,I always fell asleep before the tape ran out ! :o
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Oh yes, I was really good on the ice: smooth, never fell over, always in time with the music ;D
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I was suffering from bad insomnia for the last 6 months but this year I saw some improvement, I can sleep some hours and then have the adrenal surges that wake me but I can get to sleep again. I think I'm so mentally tired that my brain is giving up, but I also changed my routine and won't go to bed until I feel exhausted, yesterday I read 400 pages of a novel of medical terror... I slept well but woke up at 5 am with a panic attack... :( :o nothing is perfect.
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Dazned its good to read that you have had bad insomnia for a very long time and still alive and kicking. I could not believe it today I picked up a magazine and inside was an article about how lack of sleep causes everything from dementia to cancer!
I know its stupid but the thought that keeps me awake is " what if I can never fall asleep without drugs ever again". Last friday I slept well and was happy as larry on saturday thinking great I have cracked it then sat night was wide awake all night again. That put me back down into the worry pit.
The day I suddenly think " sod this I don't care if I sleep or not " I will go back to normal but its getting that mindset >:(
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That's what worked for me in 1980 and I'm still here! I get the odd nights when I can't get to sleep or when I wake and remain awake for hours but it isn't every night any more. Have you tried relaxation from toes to neck, tensing the muscle groups all the way up the body then relaxing B4 moving to the next muscle group?
Or try wriggling your ears? something I haven't yet achieved but it re-focuses the mind ::)
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Yes tried the tensing relaxing and it does relax you but again the brain is mightier than!!! The power of the mind is quite scary. The Dr's all say insomnia is psychological and I agree although hormones come into it as well.
I feel really guilty being in such a state when there are so many people ( like my late friends husband) who are suffering much more than I am but not in the state I am in. Can't say the guilt helps much ::)
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This sleepness is YOUR problem. They have help with their own ;)
My mind would race so fast that I couldn't tie down topics it went through, DH asked me once 'what keeps you awake?' but it wasn't ever 1 item. The more I tried to quiet it down the more thoughts would rush in ::)
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Dazned its good to read that you have had bad insomnia for a very long time and still alive and kicking. I could not believe it today I picked up a magazine and inside was an article about how lack of sleep causes everything from dementia to cancer!
I know its stupid but the thought that keeps me awake is " what if I can never fall asleep without drugs ever again". Last friday I slept well and was happy as larry on saturday thinking great I have cracked it then sat night was wide awake all night again. That put me back down into the worry pit.
The day I suddenly think " sod this I don't care if I sleep or not " I will go back to normal but its getting that mindset >:(
That sounds very much like a close friend of mine who ended up on verge of a breakdown post chemo and radiotherapy for BC when she discovered hubby had embarked on an affair whilst he lived away for work - after a long stressful period she just couldn't sleep at night and would nap during day instead which made things worse and she became quite convinced she'd never steel again which fed her inability to shut off and sleep. In end they prescribed mitrazapine for a short time as it had a sedative effect along with the anti anxiety / depression effect. Just breaking the cycle gave her confidence in her body's ability to do the sleeping thing. That said my mum has terrible sleep problems and has had for years post meno - now she just accepts that her sleep comes in chunks of odd hours so she'll sleep maybe 12 till 2 then 6 - 9 - not ideal but she finds a glass of wine at bedtime while reading calms her and gives her a better night's sleep though she only dares do this few times a week.
You have my sympathy as the few nights I've had on chemo treatment when I'm on steroids have seen me awake every two hrs and it is dreadful x
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Well steroid treatment won't help! ...... it made my dog hungry ::) so she was up/down all evening and through the night.
'what if' is really controlling. When I was withdrawing from medication each time the side effects started it was 'what if I never get off this drug' - but I did.
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My husband just said in answer to the what if - its so what!
I tried mitrazapine about 3 yrs ago and it zonked me out for 3 days, could barely keep my eyes open but then the sedative effect wore off ::) I then got severe acid reflux and had to give up after 2 weeks plus terrible twitchy legs, both known side effects.
I have hiatus hernia and keep it under control with strict diet and ranitidine but all anti depres medication gives me bad acid - typical!
Ah the rushing newsreel in your head whilst you lie there like a rigid plank with the ever present " what if" :o
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My husband just said in answer to the what if - its so what!
I tried mitrazapine about 3 yrs ago and it zonked me out for 3 days, could barely keep my eyes open but then the sedative effect wore off ::) I then got severe acid reflux and had to give up after 2 weeks plus terrible twitchy legs, both known side effects.
I have hiatus hernia and keep it under control with strict diet and ranitidine but all anti depres medication gives me bad acid - typical!
Ah the rushing newsreel in your head whilst you lie there like a rigid plank with the ever present " what if" :o
Your hubby is right with the " so what." I have spent my life worrying about everything from cot deaths to meningitis , from money and losing home because of farm debts, from dying of brian tumour to heart attacks. I believed worrying would make it easier if it happened as I'd be ready and had already a experienced the emotions attached to those experiences . I also worried about getting ovarian cancer . When it happened, do you know, nothing prepared me for it. Not all that what iffing or thinking how I'd cope or feel - all that worrying did was make what should have been a happy life with my son and husband a miserable one and now when I'm faced with genuine uncertainty about the future , I feel as if my ability to cope has already been exhausted ( oh and reading that stress has been shown to exacerbate spread etc just made me beat myself up a bit more!) when the what ifs strike, try visualising sticking two fingers up at them and saying you'll deal with them if they arise and not before. If you can formulate a quick plan to deal with the issue then I tend to think that they are a genuine problem otherwise if you are sucked into a whirl of thoughts that just twist and turn like a labyrinth , then they are much more likely to be an illusion created by your stressed mind and body. All you can do is try and find ways of coping , like practising sone mindfulness, gentle breathing exercises, nice warm baths etc. When I can't sleep I tell myself that I'm still doing myself sone good just being in bed resting. That's what my mother used to say whenever I said I wasn't tired and I couldn't sleep and I hear her voice in my head when I think it. I hope you get a better night tonight x
P
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My sympathies are with you CB. Not sleeping is awful. Has the doctor tried you on Amitryptline? I take 10mg a night and I generally get a good night's sleep. It's a good little drug which has been around for years and it's cheap too so GPs don't mind prescribing it.
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Sleep heals ::) but when I am unable to sleep, I tell myself that my body at least is resting. Last night I was sleeping on my belly and could feel wind rolling round, bad enough to wake me :o then I worried about it. Himself muttered 'peas' and went back to sleep ;). However I had to read for a couple of hours then was awake for ages ......... too cold to get out of bed to enter on here though :-X
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My sympathies are with you CB. Not sleeping is awful. Has the doctor tried you on Amitryptline? I take 10mg a night and I generally get a good night's sleep. It's a good little drug which has been around for years and it's cheap too so GPs don't mind prescribing it.
All anti dep give me severe acid reflux as same as mitrazipine sadly. I know loads of people who take amiltry and it helps them sleep but I could not take it.
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I find that when I take my ADs etc. to late to laying down at night, heart burn is almost instant :o. Last night it was peas :-X
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coldethyl - I really understood your post as i too have spent my life worrying about everything and realised how all my life had been blighted by this. Generally I am massive amount better since I hit menopause strangely, but not sleeping is the last of the triggers for me. Most of the time I can live by the enjoy each day you have, but sometimes it deserts me ::)
ckld - wind/peas made me laugh. What is it with you and peas ;D ;D
I slept as i usually do last night - woke up every 3 hrs but thats normal for me.
My late friends husband emailed me today to say he had gone to Dr becuase he cannot sleep and was given 28 days sleeping pills.
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Does your friend's husband know to take them as necessary? I find that 2-3 nights then a couple of night's break helps me. At least I know that I'm going to get good quality sleep when I take the medication. Maybe suggest relaxation therapy to him?
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Went on YouTube and looked at Dr Andrew Weill's breathing exercise for sleep. Have done it during the day going to see if it works tonight. Had bad night last night, even with Camomile tea, magnesium tablet, lavender and a paracetamol.
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Nurofen has worked for me occasionally. Unless my brain is whirring ........
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Can't take anything with Ibuprofen in it sadly, which is a swine as I'm sure it would be far better for the leg pain than paracetamol
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Will have a look at the breathing exercises.
Late friends husband said that Dr told him to take them for no longer than 14 days straight and then tail them off over next few weeks. Amazed he got 28 tablets as my Dr won't give more than 14 at a time. He didn't know about nytol either so I suggested he buy some to keep in so that once he has stopped the sleeping pills he can at least try nytol - they are not as quick as sleeping pills but I have found they do work just alot slower. He knows not to take them together or to have any alcohol either!
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Grrrrr i was happy and relaxed yesterday after a nights natural sleep when I went to bed but was still awake at 2am. I then gave in and took a nytol and then slept okay. Trouble is I just cannot wait and see if I fall asleep eventually on my own because once I am not asleep after an hour the evil panic kicks in. I need a very short acting something to get me to sleep. I don't have a problem with waking alot during night as thats normal for me its just the initial getting to sleep.
Having a zonked husband next to me who falls asleep as soon as his head hits the pillow does not help me >:( >:(
Sorry for the moan, I know I just have to deal with this myself or get used to it but your replies do make me feel better.
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I read. Dropped off to sleep for about 12 mins., woke with a jerk and stayed awake reading for another 2hours before my lids began to droop. Woke needing a bathroom visit at 7.30. Feel quite ruff though :-\
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I wish I could read in the night but I can only use a kindle as I am partially sighted and reading on a kindle is not good because of the light it emits or so they say. I would also need to put my glasses on as well!!!
I do wonder sometimes if like you I sleep for short time but just don't realise it so I think that I have not been to sleep at all and then panic when its 2am.
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I often think that I'm not going to drop off, then I find I've slept all night. Some nights I can feel myself dropping off ........ others I have deep sleep for 20-40 mins. B4 waking ........ most nights I sleep from 11.30 until 5.00 for a bathroom visit, then back to sleep until 9.00.
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I wish I could read in the night but I can only use a kindle as I am partially sighted and reading on a kindle is not good because of the light it emits or so they say. I would also need to put my glasses on as well!!!
I do wonder sometimes if like you I sleep for short time but just don't realise it so I think that I have not been to sleep at all and then panic when its 2am.
Same problem here, and I wear contact lenses, even worse than glasses (which I can't wear, unless I quit the lenses). If I'm reading and almost falling asleep I have to wake up to take them off and... you know. :(
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Do you use the Nytol from behind the pharmacy counter with the Phena...something in it,not the one off the general shelves? There is a diffence ::)
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Hi Countrybumpkin - sorry to hear you are struggling so badly. I'm not a bad sleeper thankfully but when my anxiety is severe, I do have the early waking at 5:00am which is bad enough.
Anyway, just to say my Mum used to work for a Chemist and he told her to take an anti-histamine when she was having sleep problems as they aren't addictive and work as well as a sleeping tablet and that's what she still does. Just a thought....
x
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The nytol is the anti histamine one thats behind the counter not the herbal one. It does work for me but I have read that the sedating effect wears off if you take it every day for a few weeks so will have to see.
I know that it is the fact I have taken somethimg that I know makes you sleepy that sends me to sleep rather than what I have taken!
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I'm fighting sleep all day after Lorazepam :-\
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What foods are suggested? I can't access the article
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Bananas, turkey.milk etc they all contain trytrophan whcih helps you sleep. This is where the hot milky drink advice comes from. Reckon I could bathe in the stuff without effect ;D
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I eat bananas occasionally now. Won't have turkey in the house ........ I drink chocolate milkshake often. I've had a sleep this evening the tablet took over eventually and will carry on into the night ::)
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CKLD what tablet? Lorazepam maybe?
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Yep. Dropped off for an hour in the evening, watched more TV, bathed then slept >phew< - less anxious this morning but OH I did dream.
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You must have a very sypathetic Dr as none of the Drs at my surgery will give any benzo's except for things like having a mri scan or other one off situation. Have you got it prescribed for anxiety?
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GPs are not doing their patients any favours by with-holding medications that do work! Because I know that Lorazepam works I use when necessary - without it being available I would be under a train long ago. My GP is aware of my dark thoughts when anxiety takes over: it takes about 20 mins. when anxiety strikes B4 I am a shivering heap in a corner.
Valium as necessary worked for me in the 1990s, initially he gave me 5 x 5mg at a time. When he knew that I am (usually) sensible with it he supported my needs.