Menopause Matters Forum

Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: dangermouse on June 24, 2016, 09:11:26 PM

Title: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: dangermouse on June 24, 2016, 09:11:26 PM
I have come to the conclusion that the cause of nausea is very low progesterone against high oestrogen in perimenopause. I mean I haven't double-blind placebo'd it, but I'm pretty sure...

I used to get severe nausea all month, apart from the few days when progesterone peaks against oestrogen and, since the pill, I've had it mid-cycle when both natural and pill oestrogen were too high vs. my progesterone levels and at the end/beginning of cycle when progesterone was very low following having a drop in pill progesterone for a week earlier in the cycle (where it went low enough to cause some spotting).

Just putting it out there as I know many of us are confused about which state causes which symptom and, in this case, its the only formula that makes sense.

I'm also pretty sure the opposite effect is depression (hopelessness/demotivation) and sleepiness, on the odd occasion I've let progesterone become dominant. Anxiety seems to be the only symptom that occurs at both ends due to the adrenal rush of over-stimulation with the above situation and under-stimulation when it falls too low and the brain panics and pumps out more adrenaline.
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: walking the dog on June 24, 2016, 09:17:57 PM
Really interesting dangermouse I get totally nauseous week before and during my bleed, unsure why but obviously one hormones not right  ???
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Kathleen on June 25, 2016, 05:02:48 PM
Hello dangermouse.

Very interesting observation. The more we can learn about the effect of these hormones on our physical and mental state, the better.

Take care.

Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Pam Madra on December 14, 2016, 02:01:17 AM
Hi Dangermouse
Interesting to read what you said about nausea.  I have big issue with nausea and not hungry at all to eat. so does this mean having progesterone in perimenopause should help with nausea but what about then anxiety?
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: dangermouse on December 14, 2016, 05:18:03 PM
Yes it should do but may take a while as rebalancing your hormones causes things to get worse first as the dumbed down receptors reawaken.

Since this thread I found out the high oestrogen is causing my nausea by way of migraines and I'm nearly 3 weeks in on progesterone cream (endo said tabs would be too potent) and nausea has been rough (esp as just had long haul flight to Sydney and dealing with their record temps!) and being in a car is like being on a boat in a storm. However, was great for first few days as felt more like I did a few years ago before it kicked in properly so I know how great I will feel once over this stimulation phase - just a shame it's during my holiday.

Similarly the anxiety vanished but now worse so still not sure if to go more gradually or take a much higher dose (similar to those trying to get oestrogen into their system). I tried stopping for 2 days but then felt really dizzy and I'm on the weakest strength (25mg) but endo said I need to be on 10 times what on eventually and have read 200mg is needed to leave the stimulation zone.

Anyway more info than you asked but just so you know it's not a simple case of taking it and feeling better straight away!
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Hurdity on December 14, 2016, 06:03:51 PM
Hi dangermouse - if you are taking the pill then you should no longer be ovulating as it suppresses the cycle so your oestrogen should be fairly constant although it could cycle a little (but nothing like before) if you are on a very low dose one. Progesterone should be completely constant subject to your digestive system! Or rather almost all of it will be synthetic from the pill and you will have very little of your own progesterone. Possible a tiny bit from the cream.

If you are nauseous then the pill probably doesn't agree with you and both hormones are synthetic so maybe not comparable with how you feel on your own hormones.  :-\

Also - as we have seen women seem to react to the changes in hormones very differently - some women feel nauseous with very high oestrogen and some with very low oestrogen. Some from progesterone - I don't think it is at all universal and I certainly do not agree that you need to add progesterone to balance the hormones in that way - except to protect the uterus.

For example during pregnancy, our oestrogen and progesterone levels are both extremely high. Some women feel nauseous for the first 3 months and some all the way through pregnancy - now that is a state where the hormones are well balanced because each is doing a different job for the pregnancy.

Walking the dog if you feel nauseous the week before and during the bleed then it is most likely in your case due to the fall in oestrogen because that is when your own oestrogen is at its lowest. Most women get some temporary progesterone withdrawal symptoms also just before the bleed and sometimes for the first few days - but this does not mean progesterone is needed - it is just the physiological changes which occur when  the progesterone (that is no longer needed if you are not pregnant) leaves the system.

Pam Madra - I don't think you need progesterone in peri-menopause to help with nausea - but in any case if you are taking oestrogen and you still have a womb you will be taking it anyway in fairly high doses.

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Pam Madra on December 14, 2016, 08:13:11 PM
thanks. It is a tricky business. I am peri trying out tibolone at the monent. Very early days. So i think I have to take chances and see what happens
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Peroxideblader on December 15, 2016, 11:33:49 AM
I posted about nausea during my period it lasts from day 1 and I'm actually sick not just feel it this has only happened the last 3 months and I don't know why it's just when I have started my period..that why I posted to see if it was tied in with my peri but what hormones is it affecting in my case ?
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: dangermouse on December 15, 2016, 10:29:00 PM
Hi Hurdity, I haven't been on the pill since August but have listed it as 'previous' in case it helps anyone else. I was much better on the pill but I didn't want to stay on it as it's synthetic and symptoms started breaking through probably from desensitisation.

I had double the progesterone cream dose yesterday but last night it felt like my head was going to explode (severe pressure) and couldn't move my eyeline at all without feeling travel sick. I'm going to do as endo said and stop for a few days as it's just making my oestrogen receptors go haywire and more like I was earlier in the year (and on the Oestrogel) bloated up and like spending the whole day on a rollercoaster!

At least the temps have dropped, went from 40 degrees (at night!) to about 16!
Title: hormonal vomiting and dihorrea anyone ??
Post by: Lunalowe on July 12, 2018, 02:50:19 PM
I am scratching my head to understand what is going on with my body...
I have been peri menopausal for about 5 years , last two years with very irregular periods. I had no period from April last year to December and then started estriol cream to help with UTIs I was getting. I used it for a few months and then started getting regular monthly periods again from January.

The only difference was  these were accompanied by intense pain, horrible vomiting and then dihorrea as well. Bizarre dihorea - like a waterfall.

The last few months I haven't had a period but have still had the pain and vomiting and dihorrea. It feels hormonal as accompanied with pain, and cramping and hormonal tiredness and light headed ness.

I also have adenomyosis but have been told by my gynae that this doesn't lead to waterfall dihorrea or often to such bad vomiting. ( it is awful and goes on and on.....)   

Am seeing gynae again tomorrow after an internal scan and am worried they will suggest mirena coil for adenomyosis. I am concerned about this as I have had bad reactions to progesterone pill in the past and don't like the idea of something inside me that I cannot get out...

I also wonder if the vomiting and dihorrea may not be related to the adenomyosis at all - but rather a response to changing hormones as I'm progressing through menopause.

I was hoping it would all go away if I stopped having periods but no such luck..

I would love to hear from anyone who has experienced anything similar, and has any suggestions about what could be helpful as this has got pretty disgusting and means I am having to take a fair amount of time off work as I have been running out of the room to be sick and then stuck on the loo for hours ....

Thank you ladies !!!

Liza xxx
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: dangermouse on July 12, 2018, 10:14:23 PM
Hey, for me these symptoms happen when my liver has pushed excess oestrogen out (either end of cycle, after strong oestrogen surges or if I use milk thistle to push it out myself when the tension builds up). I also feel sick and dizzy and it's similar to when you've taken a laxative, or food poisoning, and your body is doing everything to expel it.

Once it's out it all calms down for a while. It's also more common between 5-8.30am when adrenaline is surging.

Progesterone cream really helps once it's built up for a few weeks, but can make it push more oestrogen out at the beginning.
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Lunalowe on July 13, 2018, 09:07:30 AM
Thanks dangermouse , that's really helpful . Sounds like you've done an excellent job of understanding how your body works.

Can I ask how you use milk thistle ? I think I have some knocking around somewhere. I was also wondering about Angus castus - have you tried that ? I've used it a while ago but not recently.

Am off to see gynae today so it will be interesting  to see what they suggest. Don't mind idea if prog cream but not keen on the coil.

Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: dangermouse on July 13, 2018, 08:31:04 PM
I use the liquid milk thistle (Nature's Answer from Whole Foods) as I find the tablets do nothing for me. I put a dose in some water and drink and it works quite quickly.

Also good for after drinking any alcohol as it pushes it through the liver more quickly!
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Hurdity on July 13, 2018, 10:09:11 PM
Hi Lunalowe

I  do hope your GP is investigating the cause of your nausea, vomiting and diahorrea as these are not a normal peri-menopausal symptoms to that extrem. OK there can be digestive disturbances and nausea but not the extremes you are describing - at least it is important to rule out other more likely causes first. Not sure why you are seeing a specialist gynae - is this privately, or perhaps you were referred because of the adenomyosis? Your GP should be your first port of call (for the other symptoms) and referrals to specialists if necessary.

I don't think herbal products will do any good - you need a proper diagnosis - at least at first. Herbal remedies may be helpful to treat the symptoms (eg settle the stomach etc) but not the cause.

Dangermouse - I've no idea what is meant by the liver pushing out stuff! The liver metabolises all sorts of things but I don't think you can alter the speed of metabolism of oestrogen and anyway if it is produced in large amounts during peri-menopause this is a continual/continuous process and governed by the endocrine system and complex feedback mechanisms - ie hormones produced by ovaries and brain.

Lunalowe I really hope your symptoms improve and you get to the bottom (::)) of the problem.

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: dangermouse on July 13, 2018, 10:34:08 PM
It's layman's terms as we're not all doctors here! Milk thistle opens up the liver and things are processed quicker.

I lost 2 stone is 2 months with severe nausea and sudden emptying of the bowels when peri properly kicked in nearly 3 years ago. Was constantly in A&E for a drip for dehydration as had to wait 6 months for an endoscopy as they assumed I had stomach ulcers. It all turned out to be high oestrogen and my endo said she sees a lot of it so, yes, unfortunately it can be extreme. I don't know how common we high oestrogen lot are though in the grand scheme of things. Important that women here know this can happen though.
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: dangermouse on July 14, 2018, 07:14:32 AM
Sorry forgot about the Agnus Castus q, I have tried these types of herbs in the past but most seem to have phytoestrogen properties and they make my symptoms worse.

One of my worse experiences was with Rhodiola Rosea. I had used when younger and it was a good adaptogen and very calming. However, it was like eating dodgy prawns to my system and my body did everything in it’s power to get rid of it in about 10 minutes... I avoid herbs now!
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Lunalowe on July 16, 2018, 12:44:57 PM
Hi Hurdity,

Thank you for your reply and  your suggestions.  I do know its not very common which is why its a bit puzzling. It only happens either at the start of a period (accompanied by extreme pain) or when it feels as though my body is trying to have a period but cannot - with lots of other hormonal symptoms so I am pretty certain it has a hormonal component - whether there is anything else going on or not I don't know. I discussed it with my GP who referred me to a gynae - and didn't suggest any other tests.  It also started happening a few months I had started taking estriol - for UTIs I kept getting - after a while my boobs became so solid they never deflated - like pregnancy only more so ! 

Dangermouse - I am very grateful to you for sharing as googling this has got me no where and your post was the only thing I found on this site that seemed a bit similar.  The milk thistle is good to know about - do you take it when you start to feel nauseous or before ?  Your experience sounds awful, it must have been really frightening and I hope it has settled for you.  I know I get terrified when I don't understand what is going on in my body.  I can relate as I am still not really back on my feet.

I also found out from the gynae on Friday from a  scan that I have a pretty thickened endometrial lining so will be having a hysteroscopy and biopsy - this is again suggestive of unopposed oestrogen so it seems I may have a problem in this area.   They are suggesting a mirena coil inserted at the same time as the hysteroscopy- which makes me nervous as I don't like the idea of something inside me and not being able to vary the dose and its also not bioidentical.  Can I ask you dangermouse which progesterone cream you use and did they suggest the mirena to you ?

I am seeing a general gynaceologist - are there other sorts ? is it an endocrinologist who has been helping you and is that a better option ?

I am new to all this and its a right pain in the everywhere - getting in the way of my life which is already far far too busy - so any help which can get me back onmy feet - or at least understand it all better is very gratefully received.

LL xx
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: dangermouse on July 16, 2018, 07:32:30 PM
I tend to use the milk thistle whenever I feel everything building up, which is sometimes each morning and other times a couple of times a week.

My GP could only offer the pill, which helped somewhat when things were really bad, or the Utrogestan. I tried it once but it felt very strong and drug like but I haven't tried the vaginal route as I just went back to my cream. I was also put off by many who post here about it making them feel terrible!

I was prescribed the compounded cream (from Customised4U) by the London Hormone Clinic with, yes, an endocrinologist. It costs £115 which lasts 3 months but you have to first pay for the consultation which is quite expensive - check their website. They've been prescribing my cream for last 2 years without further appointments (at my request) but I've just ordered a cream online from Ona's as heard good things about it on another site. It works out about the same price but without needing the consultations.
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Hurdity on July 16, 2018, 07:47:23 PM
Lunalowe - if you are having pretty regular natural periods then your lining will thicken each cycle so if it is being measured this needs to be done straight after your bleed. Why did you have your lining thickness measured and what stage in your cycle was it done?

When you say "taking" estriol do you mean using it internally ie per vagina, not orally? There aren't any oral preparations containing this available here, not sure if there are anywhere? Used vaginally it is very unlikely to cause nausea as the dose is extremely low and even less is absorbed systemically - so it won't be due to this.

Compounded creams are not recommended here (nor US and Aus and probably other parts of the world too!) for endometrial protection so if you need to take extra progesterone due to a thickened lining, and don't want a Mirena, then as dangermouse says Utrogestan is the only way to take (body-identical) prog for this purpose. It can be used vaginally or orally. There is also Cyclogest which is sometimes prescribed although it is originally for fertility treatment.

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Low progesterone / high oestrogen = nausea
Post by: Lunalowe on July 17, 2018, 02:52:20 PM
Hi Dancing girl - thanks for suggestions - I think it's worth having a go with milk thistle and have ordered some. It's also good to know coil not the only option

Hurdity - I have no idea why they measured my lining ! Was part of an internal scan and was around 4 weeks or so post period. However I haven't had another period since (around a month ago ) and have had very very irregular periods for a few years now. Didn't have one for 7 months last year.

The gynae said she was unhappy with the thickness given my history and cycles hence the suggested hysteroscopy.

You are right - estriol was vaginal - so correct English should have been ‘used' not ‘taken'...  ;) my thinking was that this had caused a build up of oestrogen hence very hard boobs. I know it's not meant to affect you systemically but the rock hard boobs I had that went away when I stopped taking it suggest otherwise...
my theory is that the estriol exacerbated the adenomyosis and may have also led to the thickened lining. Some combination of all of this including pain and general hormonal havoc seems to be causing the vomiting etc. That's my best guess for now.

Thankyou for your suggestion of uterogestan - I will look into that and weight it all up.

Hope things are going well for you both x LL