Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Alternative Therapies => Topic started by: englishrose on April 18, 2016, 01:10:10 PM
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What alternative therapies/vitamins have helped you if you choose not to use hrt or unable to. No hrt is best on this thread please as looking at alternatives.
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Have you read through the previous threads?
I think it depends on how badly a lady suffers with the various issues that 'the Change' can bring. I have been lucky. We have always eaten a healthy, usually basic home-cooked grub from when we were born. We exercised a lot as families had 1 car until more recently, so it was walking or cycling and of course, the dreaded P.E. in School >:(.
Keeping a journal can be useful to note pros, cons, symptoms etc..
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Mindful Meditation really helped me during my time without HRT. I can strongly recommend it. Dg x
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Mindful meditation does sound a very positive thing to do. Just reading my mindfulness in 6 weeks book. Just haven't found the key to what it actually is.....I know that sounds silly
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Concentrating on how you feel whilst relaxing? Yoga can be helpful too.
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englishrose - I have found that the Mindfulness has changed the way I think. I can more easily retreat into a place where the fatigue and stress is not dominating the way I feel. Focusing in the right way, putting life into better perspective and actually allowing relaxation to travel through you in a positive way. It does take time and practise to really feel the benefit and it won't help everything. I do think we need to value relaxation more. DG x
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Booked up to see ruby wax talk about mindfullness
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Using magnesium spray at bedtime gives me a better night's sleep. I was slightly sceptical at first but I've had some really restful sleeps since using it.
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Enjoy the Ruby Wax experience. Discuss?
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Dulciana - How much magnesium spray do you use? It would be super to get a good nights sleep.
Hasty - I use two or three sprays on to my midriff area and a couple on to my chest, then massage it well in. On the bottle, it says you can spray it on whichever part of the body you prefer. It also tells you to make sure you have clean wet or dry skin, so after bath/shower seems to be best.
If I wake up in the middle of the night, I just give one more little spray and usually get right back to sleep.
I would just add that massaging it in with the palm of my hand made the skin there go a bit flaky, but that hasn't happened since I've been massaging it in with my fingertips instead. I suppose there's more oil in the fingertips.
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I found St John's Wort extremely helpful for stabilising moods and I used it for over 5 years. you have to be careful with it as it can affect other medications so always best to check with a pharmacist first.
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Have tried a host of alternatives. Only thing I would recommend is my Bioflow bracelet for my aches and pains.
Bramble
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What alternative therapies/vitamins have helped you if you choose not to use hrt or unable to. No hrt is best on this thread please as looking at alternatives.
Hi englishrose
Are you the same Englishrose who left and has then come back? I'm not sure what specifically you are looking at alternative therapies for but as you know there is a whole section on the website about these if you look at the top tabs "Treatments".
Depending on what you are looking for - asking individuals what worked for them won't give you an idea of what might work for you especially if there is no evidence that a particular treatment worked using scientific trials. However there are some prescribed alternatives to HRT for hot flushes that are known to work - or have strong evidence that they do - and these should be your first port of call if this is what you want?
If you look at the British Menopause Society website they produced an excellent news item late last year reviewing the alternative (to HRT) treatments for hot flushes specifically and you can read it here:
http://www.thebms.org.uk/newsitem.php?newsid=85
The information is based on a North American Menopause Society review published in their journal: http://www.menopause.org/docs/default-source/professional/pap-pdf-meno-d-15-00241-minus-trim-cme.pdf
You will be able to identify which treatments have strong evidence that they are effective and then you can see what others on here report about them!
Hope this helps :)
Hurdity x
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I'm in the hugely lucky position of having an interest that takes me right out of my meno feelings and into a zone where the blues are left far behind. My worst times, certainly mentally, are usually those when I sit and over-think or start brooding about this and that - go in on myself, in other words. I read something somewhere that described this sort of "therapy" as an activity where you loose all track of time, and I know exactly what they meant. Can anyone else tell us about an activity that you're able to use as a sort of self-discovered "therapy" ? I'd love to know! :)
Dulciana
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Best therapy I did was analytical hypnotherapy had done NLP and EFT before this. Have used meditation acupuncture and homeopathy for about 20 years. I walk the dog every day and do a little pilates. Don't go to work take a few vitamins and keep an eye on my bowel movements have been taught all about the bowel through alternative stuff I've done. Still can't replace oestrogen though! !
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Best therapy I did was analytical hypnotherapy
What's that, Kate50?
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Dulciana
It's a therapy where you use hypnotherapy to get to the sub concious where basically is the answer to a lot of most people's issues. I used it to help sort out deep routed emotional problems and behaviour. Changed lots for me and I think that's why I don't have the intense anxiety in menopause. Learnt a lot about myself.
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My Psychologist told me that I am an unsuitable candidate for hypnotherapy ::)
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Why's that CLKD I know you've said it before
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Aerobic exercise, good quality supplements, hormone balancing diet. X
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Hi Jari, can you tell us more about the hormone balancing diet please & what supplements you take?
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Hi Wrensong.
I take Viridian 40+ multi, Glucosamine for joints and Synerbio.
Also Bio care Vit c 500 and bio care omega 3 oil capsules.
Hormone balancing diet, although I'm not too strict about it, basically changed my diet a lot, to include more phytoestrogens and lignans. Mainly lentils, chickpeas and ground flaxseeds. X
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Can you tell me how phyto-estrogen foods would be recommended for someone who has had breast cancer, i.e. what exactly are
they? :-\
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CLKD - have just posted about phyto-oestrogens & BC on another thread. I was recently at a joint Macmillan-NHS presentation at which the topic of diet after BC was raised & as they are thought to be hormone-disruptors, phyto-oestrogens were not recommended for women post-BC. I also posted a link to an article the other day that mentioned that phyto-oestrogens are thought to exert both oestrogenic & anti-oestrogenic effects, but can't remember which thread it was on I'm afraid ::) If I remember & it looks relevant to your query, will post it again here.
Wx
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Hi CLKD, phytoestrogens are plant foods that can have a hormone balancing effect on the body.
Likewise exercise has a hormone balancing effect.
Over 300 foods, including fruits, veg, seeds, legumes and grains have been found to have this estrogenic effect, but there are differences in the strength in the different foods. High concentrations are found in lentils, chickpeas and soya.
Women in Japan for example have fewer menopausal symptoms and their diet is much richer in these plant foods. They have a lower incidence of breast cancer, heart disease and osteoporosis.
Basically, phytoestrogens will help with flushes, sweats and memory changes without risking cancer, but of course it's important to get a good balance. X
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I find that surprising as in Japan, which has a diet traditionally high in phytoestrogen, breast cancer is low. It affects only one in thirty eight.
Sorry Jari, our posts over lapped, I was replying to Wrensong. So yes, I agree with you.
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CLKD below is the link, which makes interesting reading I think.
The caution lies in the following extracts . . .
"Flaxseed is the richest dietary source of lignans, a type of phytoestrogen. A phytoestrogen is a plant nutrient that is somewhat similar to the female hormone estrogen. Due to this similarity, lignans may have estrogenic and/or anti-estrogenic effects in the body."
"Phytoestrogens are somewhat similar to human estrogen, and some health experts have speculated that phytoestrogens might even act like human estrogen in the body. This suggestion has raised concerns about whether phytoestrogens may not be safe for people with a history of hormone-linked cancers, such as prostate cancer, endometrial cancer, or ER positive breast cancer."
But the article also cites research showing that flax seeds may have a useful anti-oestrogenic role. My feeling is that while the jury is out & cancer specialists like those at the presentation I attended, recommend against inclusion in diet post-BC, that's probably the safest course of action.
https://www.oncologynutrition.org/on/erfc/healthy-nutrition-now/foods/flaxseeds-and-breast-cancer
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Hi Jari, thank you - we were posting at the same time! At the presentation I mentioned, the link between low incidence of BC in cultures where lots of phyto-oestrogens are traditionally eaten was mentioned, but the bottom line was that as not enough is currently understood about their effects in the body, it was thought safer for women with a history of BC to avoid them & not to begin adding them to their diet in the hope any anti-oestrogenic effects might prevent recurrence. I am not suggesting they are not safe for anyone without a history of BC, nor that in time, research may not conclusively show they have a role in BC prevention, just responding to CLKD's question. :)
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Don't know quite how useful the link is. The paper is over five years old and seems to be by American dietitians, not doctors.
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Interesting article Wrensong, but just to point out CLKD, as you and for any others that are post menopausal, they are therefore beneficial. X
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Just to explain a little: Phytoestrogens literally work like a key. The cells in your body have estrogen receptors on them that act like a lock; they need a key that fits into that lock to stimulate them into activity. This activity can be beneficial in certain places in the body such as bones and brain where you want the cells to stay active, but can be negative in other places such as breasts and womb, where you do not want cells to be too stimulated. There are two different kinds of estrogen receptors, alpha and beta. We have alpha receptors in breasts, ovaries and womb and beta receptors in brain, bones, blood vessels and bladder, as well as breasts, brain and womb. Breasts, ovaries and womb therefore have both, alpha and beta.
Hrt triggers both alpha and beta, which is why it can increase the risk of breast, ovarian and womb cancer when it stimulates the cells in those areas.
Isoflavones work in a completely different way. They block alpha receptors in the breasts, ovaries and womb, but stimulate the beta in brain and bones. X
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CLKD just to point out from Wrensong's link. This is of course just focused only on lignans and particularly flaxseeds only. Lignans being one type of phytoestrogen, but taking that into consideration, it's great how the article explains how beneficial they would be for you as a post menopausal woman with BC history. Me too! 👍
Clip below!! Thank you Wrensong for pointing this out!
Lignans, which are the type of phytoestrogens in flaxseed, can change estrogen metabolism. In postmenopausal women, lignans can cause the body to produce less active forms of estrogen. This is believed to potentially reduce breast cancer risk. There is evidence that adding ground flaxseeds into the diet decreases cell growth in breast tissue as well. Again, this would be the type of change that would be expected to decrease breast cancer risk.
All cells have the ability to go through a process called apoptosis, or programmed cell death. It is believed that through this process, the body can prevent damaged cells from reproducing, and eventually developing into cancer. Researchers have shown that flaxseed sprouts can increase apoptosis (programmed cell death). Some cell and animal studies have shown that two specific phytoestrogens found in lignans, named enterolactone and enterodiol, may help suppress breast tumor growth.
Animal studies have shown that both flaxseed oil and lignans can reduce breast tumor growth and spread, even for ER- cancer cells. This result suggests that flaxseeds may have anti-cancer benefits that are unrelated to any type of effect on estrogen or estrogen metabolism.
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Shadyglade, sorry you didn't find the link helpful - I didn't search for the most relevant to CLKD's query - merely remembered posting a link on the subject on another thread a few days ago.
Jari - I find the whole field of diet as it relates to health & disease fascinating, but cannot comment with your certainty that phyto-oestrogens are not potentially harmful in some situations. I have wondered whether genetic variations in races that traditionally eat diets high in phyto-oestrogens could account for the differences in expression of their effects. Does anyone here know? All very interesting ladies & I am keen to learn from you. It is certainly not my intention to create conflict. :)
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Hi Wrensong, your article is very helpful in pointing out how phytoestrogens block cancer cell growth.
Although just to point out, your article is just focusing on flaxseeds only, nevertheless, very positive, it's also worth mentioning that of course, to have a good hormone balancing diet, we must try to do exactly that and balance well with the 300+ types of phytoestrogen foods!
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Yes Jari - that's what makes the article interesting imo! As I said above . . .
"But the article also cites research showing that flax seeds may have a useful anti-oestrogenic role. "
My point was that at the recent presentation I attended given by breast health professionals it was felt that not enough is known to recommend one way or another & because of this, their advice was that women with a history of BC should avoid concentrated sources of phyto-oestrogens. I thought that might be helpful for CLKD to know - given her query & the history she has previously posted about. As you rightly say phyto-oestrogens are present in lesser amounts in many food sources that it would be impossible to avoid in a varied healthy diet.
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Haha - yes Jari - glad you found the article helpful in backing your viewpoint! ;D
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True Wrensong, I think it wouldn't be sensible to focus on one concentrated food type.
Balance is key! X
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I also think it is interesting to note that although rates in Japan for breast cancer are very low, they has been a slow but significant increase attributed to the change to a more Western diet.
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Good point Shadyglade! X
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Yes Shadyglade - that's often raised & is also very interesting I think. I ate soya products & later flax seeds for some years pre-menopause, the soya partly because of FH of BC, wanting to try to reduce my own risk & partly to try to improve a digestive condition. The flax I found helpful for digestive transit, but to my frustration found in peri that I had to stop it as it made my vasomotor symptoms worse - so maybe due to the possible antioestrogenic effect we are discussing here. I am just not sure enough either way from all I read & given the seriousness of such devastating conditions as breast cancer I tend to err on the side of caution.
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Sorry it posted too quickly. Ha!
For me, the alternative options that I am doing are working, without risks. Got to be worth a try before starting on any risky road surely?! X
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Jari - great to know the alternative approach is working for you. This is why I said the other day I thought posting about your experience could be very interesting to women wanting to try to manage meno symptoms without using HRT & why I asked you earlier on this thread if you would post here about your diet. Thank you for doing that.
I agree, definitely worth a try & I spent a decade trying to manage without HRT which I wholeheartedly wanted to avoid, before finally going down that route.
Never a day goes by when I don't worry about the unknowns of the HRT-BC link. However, I have been encouraged towards open-mindedness about HRT & BC after discussion with healthcare professionals in the speciality. Was also heartened by Dr Avrum Bluming's book, Oestrogen Matters, which I think makes refreshing & interesting reading, especially for women struggling with very difficult menopause symptoms either post-BC or with FH of the disease. His long experience as an Oncologist specialising in the treatment of breast cancer, which several of his own family members have sadly also developed, makes for interesting & potentially liberating reading I think. But as you say off-topic here. Sorry for the meander!
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I'll try to look at that book Wrensong.
It's a pity that by doing all those things listed, that it didn't help you. I think you said you also have thyroid issues and I'm wondering if that might ?! have anything to do with that. Do you take drugs for that also? If you do, I'm wondering if that throws a spanner in the works.
If ladies start by trying all on list first over at least a year, but then find they still have debilitating symptoms and decide to try hrt, I think it's important that they don't get stuck on it and realise that their own body's hormones will be changing, so for some, they may well find, if they come off hrt after a short period, they may well find that their initial symptoms have lessened or gone...
Very interested to hear from anyone who is doing these alternative choices and how it's working out, or perhaps they are not here on forum?! X
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Jari - I think you are right - in my experience, the thyroid issue can greatly complicate other conditions as it means the body is already compromised to some degree. Thyroid replacement works very well for some patients, but imo can never truly replicate the exquisite way in which a healthy thyroid functions. There are very complex biofeedback mechanisms & interactions that make the field mind-boggling, so I don't profess to understand any more than the basics, but like to try to help out other thyroid patients posting on the forum if I can, both for reassurance & because it can make for a difficult & lonely road to walk.
In answer to your question I take both Thyroxine & Liothyronine - the latter makes me atypical among hypothyroid patients, so again, my experience may not always be applicable to women who are on Thyroxine only. Of course, as with responses to HRT & scope & severity of menopause symptoms in the first place, it also seems to be a case that individual experiences differ greatly. Another reason a forum like this is so valuable - the range of experience & knowledge posted means we can usually all find something helpful here.
Yes, if you are interested Jari - I think the Avrum Bluming book makes for a thought-provoking read and I think it potentially helpful to women whose breast cancer history or family history leaves them struggling with debilitating symptoms & in a very lonely place. Again, I'm still undecided about about the matter myself, but feel it best to encourage anyone questioning the issues e.g. BC patients posting for advice on this forum, to try to research as widely as possible to make up their own minds, gain a sense of control & feel more involved in any discussions with relevant healthcare specialists.
I also agree with your comment about the need for HRT possibly changing over time, the wisdom of reviewing as our circumstances may change & keeping abreast of new research that comes to light. A point I touched on in another thread we chatted on a few days ago.
But for me personally - my symptoms over 13+ years, the debilitating effects & complication of managing other pre-existing health conditions & my response so far to the relatively small amount of HRT I've been exposed to, together mean I need to persevere with it for now for quality of life. Albeit with fingers crossed behind my back, as much optimism as I can muster & an open mind!
Wx
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Breast cancer mortality and use of HRT
23 September 2016
Many women and healthcare professionals continue to be concerned about the association of HRT use and breast cancer. Most recent evidence suggests that HRT does NOT cause breast cells to become cancerous, but that the use of combined HRT (estrogen and progestogen) for more than 5 years, MAY promote the growth of cancer cells which are already present in some women. Importantly, this means that the natural history of breast cancer is not affected by use of HRT.
Further reassuring evidence has been reported from Finland, studying 489,105 women using HRT in 1994 to 2009 and comparing breast cancer mortality rate with that in women not using HRT.
The study showed that the risk of dying from breast cancer was reduced in all users of HRT, regardless of duration of HRT use, age or whether the HRT was estrogen only or estrogen plus progestogen. For age, the largest reduction in risk was in the 50-59 age group, and for type of HRT, estrogen only users showed a larger risk reduction than estrogen plus progestogen.
Overall, in this Finnish population, 1 in 10 women with breast cancer will die from the disease, while 1 in 20 women with breast cancer who use HRT will do so.
While this is an observational study rather than a gold standard randomised controlled trial, these findings add more evidence to the understanding of association of breast cancer risk and of breast cancer mortality in women who use HRT.
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I have had an horrendous peri time (for 4 years) and was bed bound to start with but have found that Natural Calm magnesium has made me so much better. It’s a powder of mag carbonate and citric acid which hot water then activates to make mag citrate and is the only other one recommended by Dr Carolyn Dean (of the Magnesium Miracle book) apart from her own one. I mix it into a litre bottle of water with a little pink salt and drink throughout the day. It didn’t have the laxative effect as some Ive tried and seems to absorb better than capsules and sprays.
I still get my gastric migraines when oestrogen goes high but it reduces the nausea and has completely eradicated the physical anxiety I had for 4 years. I do believe that I suffered so badly because of a magnesium deficiency and am hoping it will reduce the multiple breast cysts I had to have biopsied early in the year, as it could still be a while before my oestrogen reduces.
I did find that good quality natural progesterone cream (prescription) helped a lot to balance my hormones but it didn’t address the underlying mag deficiency. I also think that adding in hormones will always throw other hormones out so prefer to build up my nutrients so that my body can cope better with the hormonal volatility.
I am also taking bentonite clay capsules and milk thistle to help remove the excess oestrogen from my bowels more quickly and flaxseeds also seem to help.
I still can’t take a multivitamin (particularly b vits and bit d) without feeling dizzy but hoping once my magnesium levels are restored, which can take up to a year, I should be able to
add in more.
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Wrensong, it's great you keep such an open mind and I'm sure you can help greatly with your thyroid experience. I've noticed quite a few ladies with this issue, that I'm sure does complicate things.
Emma, thanks for the post, but as it's just an observational study, I still wouldn't want to risk hrt use. We all have cancer cells in our bodies and as the article points out, hrt can cause these cells to grow, whilst not having put them there in the first place obviously.
I'm counting myself very lucky, so far, that the alternative approach for me is working and I'm not in a position to be drawn to hrt.. x
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Thank you Emma, reassuring. Along the same lines, I thought the following link was interesting. Apologies, ladies if not relevant to the main reason for this thread.
Wx
http://breastcancerchoices.org/hrt.html
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Jari :thankyou:
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Hi dangermouse, that's really interesting with magnesium.
I do have baths with magnesium salts and magnesium also in my multi.
I totally agree with you re the adding of hormones! Xx
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Anyone here looked into seed cycling?
Ooh, what's that?