Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: GypsyRoseLee on November 23, 2015, 05:42:23 PM
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Years ago I had to have the Mirena removed after only 9 months because it made my PMS much worse, and I seemed to have it for most of the month.
10 years later I tried Marvelon and was great for the first 2-3 weeks. I only had a short 4 day withdrawal break at the end of the first pack, but the horrible anxiety and depression reappeared within 48 hours and then stayed for the next 2 weeks.
I felt so dreadfully low and anxious at the weekend that I ended up in tears to my DH because it scared me how dreadful I felt! It was just awful, awful. A mix of anxiety, panic and an overwhelming sense of dread.
Knowing that synthetic progesterone can cause anxiety/depression I decided to stop taking the BCP and instead applied a 75 mg Estradot patch. Within.6 hours the anxiety had almost disappeared. I slept like a baby. Woke up today feeling so much better.
I am disbelieving that synthetic progesterone can make you feel so terrifyingly anxious and low. But then, I can't deny the evidence of my anxiety disappearing within hours of me stopping taking it and just wearing an oestrogen patch instead.
I would be very interested and grateful to hear about other women's experience of the psychological effects of synthetic progesterone.
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I could write a book about intolerance to synthetic progestins!!! I think that they interact very differently from our progesterone and cause all sorts of problems connected with the brain. Personally, I think progestins are very bad news and it is worth noting that all the risk elements of HRT are connected to them.
My story starts with the BCP (Eugynon 30) many years ago when I suffered from weight gain, hairs growing in very embarrassing places, constant sore throats, permanent nasal drip, low level flu symptoms, depression, skins complaints and allergies. These symptoms all disappears as soon as I stopped taking it, even the hairs fell out.
Then many years later, the mirena coil which gave me swollen, painful breasts and low libido. I was told by the Family Planning Clinic that most of the progestins stay in the womb but this cannot be true. I was 37 when I first had one fitted for contraceptive purposes and it was only when it was about to expire in 2005 that I felt OK again. Then I had another one fitted in late 2005 and I started having silent migraines (visual disturbance with no headache) and the breast problems again. By this time, I now realise with hindsight that I must have been peri menopause because my periods stopped completely in 2006 but at the time, I put it down to the new coil perhaps being slightly different from the previous one. The interesting thing is that I never had the silent migraines until I stopped producing my own progesterone which, I imagine, overrode the synthetic stuff in the coil - I can't think of any other reason why I would have started getting the silent migraines, particularly as I didn't get them while taking the BCP.
I found out I was post menopause while using the coil and had started using oestrogen patches but I still had the silent migraines. I then had the coil removed and went on to Angeliq, an oral HRT with synthetic progestins and yet again, had the migraines. I then switched to the gel with norethisterone and that was my worst experience, I had 5 attacks of disturbed vision in one day on one occasion. I then started using Utrogestan (bio identical progesterone) and yet again, I had the migraines but they were less severe and I didn't suffer with the 72 hour post drome.
After many trials, I have concluded that I must keep a constant level of oestrogen in my system to avoid the progestin/progesterone becoming too dominant. I now split my oestrogen dose to one pump every 12 hours and so far, it seems to be working. It would take a scientific brain like Hurdity to explain this better but I think that synthetic progestins interfere with the brain receptors which cause the migraines and other symptoms like depression, anxiety and low libido. I think the problem I experienced with the Utrogestan is slightly different and probably causes problems because, despite being bio identical, the 100mg vaginal dose that I take is too much in one go and a far higher level of progesterone than my own body would produce if I was still menstruating properly.
I can well believe that you felt better as soon as you stopped taking it, I did when I had my coil removed. I am continuing to consider having a hysterectomy to combat this problem once and for all.
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How everyone differs eh?
I feel much calmer taking it continuously. Cyclically - I was a mess!
Hallelujah for different types of hrt that's what I say!!
Gypsy I thought you felt ok for the 12 days but rubbish after? Or is that wrong? If true can't you switch to conti?
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Hi Nina
I think I was generally okay taking Utro. I think the problems were with the stopping and starting of it? Plus looking back I don't think firstly the 25 mg patch, then the 50mg patch were sufficiently high enough to control my symptoms better.
I see my consultant in 3 weeks. I have 14 x 100mg of Utro. I am totally torn between wearing 75mg patches for one week followed by 100mg Utro a night for 2 weeks. Or, taking 200mg Utro for one week prior to my consultant appointment? Don't know which way to go???
Aaaarrgghhhhh.!
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Well why not try it days 1-25? From what you say I think it'll suit you. You may suffer erratic bleeding (I didn't) in the first 6 months or so.
Worth a try imho for you gypsy.
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It's a definite possibility Nina. My main peri symptoms are extreme anxiety (at times) and very low mood (at times). These are the symptoms I want to avoid at all costs! So I am very wary of taking anything for most of the month (except oestrogen obviously) in case a build up of it exacerbates my symptoms.
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Yes I can understand that. It helped me to become stable all month which was much better than up down up down up down up down ha ha
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Had hormonal anxiety and depression been.an issue for you too?
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How everyone differs eh?
I feel much calmer taking it continuously. Cyclically - I was a mess!
Hallelujah for different types of hrt that's what I say!!
Gypsy I thought you felt ok for the 12 days but rubbish after? Or is that wrong? If true can't you switch to conti?
That's the same as me. Typically, I don't respond well to synthetic estogens (Dienogest being the closest to tolerable). Yet with Utrogestan, I felt great ... Until I stopped it! Now been prescribed it fr 25 days, despite still having periods, but am not going to switch until my stomach cramps have eased.
Really interesting thread - it's something I've thought about a lot. So many Drs say the Mirena 'can't' cause problems, get Prof Studd says for 10%, it causes constant pmt.
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Me!
Add me to the list!! :(
I cannot tolerate synthetic prog. At all. :'(
When I was first given HRT I was given a synthetic, and within 24-48 of starting it the difference in me was marked. My husband was really worried about me. My symptoms were a deep and sudden depression (Feelings of morbidity and feelings like nothing to live for, 'I'm old' , I'm going to die soon', no one would care if I died, couldn't be bothered to wash or anything) I was paranoid. I thought everyone hated me and I hated everyone. I was argumentative, a misery to live with, and I was so anxious I couldn't face going anywhere. I had joint aches as well, but mainly mood changes. . It was just awful. Hubby actually made me an apt with GP who told me to cease the progesterone right away.
I was then given a 3 monthly type of HRT which meant prog only every 3 months. I was OK on the oestrogen part, but soon as prog kicked in I was back to square one. I begged to be able to stop it again. :'(
I was then sent to see a HRT specialist doc at sexual health clinic, .
At first she said I should try the birth control pill, a prog only one!!!!! She said it would be fine as it was continuous and low dose. I tried it - within a week I was off it again.
She then pushed and pushed and pushed for me to have Mirena!!?!?! - I declined STRONGLY, explaining it was obvious I was intolerant of progesterone!!
By that time Id heard of utrogestan (my GP hadn't!) so I pushed for that.
Finally got it but only AFTER she'd offered me a hysterectomy!!! :o
So now I use the utrogestan which is better than the synthetics but still affects me. The first 3 or 4 days are OK then I feel myself slipping down the slope :( Its nowhere near as bad though, so for that I'm grateful :)
I came back to forum recently, and made a new thread recently on here saying that because my own regular bleeds returned (they were erratic for a while) I'm afraid I've only been using the utrogestan every 3 month or so. Just as a precaution, and am worried Im not doing the right thing......
It's awful having this intolerance. :(
Makes sense though I feel, as I always did have PMT and also I got spates of PND too.
Sympathies to others suffering like me.
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Oh good news briony! I'm sure you'll do well on it!
Are you going to take it orally? Good luck (not that you'll need it)
Yes sympathies to the prog intolerant ladies. It's a journey with lots of bumps for all of us :-*
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Briony : That's the same as me. Typically, I don't respond well to synthetic estogens (Dienogest being the closest to tolerable). Yet with Utrogestan, I felt great ... Until I stopped it! Now been prescribed it fr 25 days, despite still having periods, but am not going to switch until my stomach cramps have eased.
Following this with interest!
Briony can you please explain re your stomach cramps? Do you think it is progesterone related? Reason asking I also have stomach cramps and backache which are more like periodlike pain and not sure whether it is my estrogen dosage being too high or my progesterone I take oralle...??
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Hi grl,
i am progestrone intolerant .... about 6 days into taking the green tabs in elleste duet. i was a mess..awful thoughts. racing heart. anx through the roof.. was horrible... went to see my consultant. - told to stop immediately.... symptoms took a while to settle down... few weeks. xx
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Can I ask a really dumb question? If you are having periods still, why do we need the progesterone? Surely if you went to a health food shop, and bought some soy isoflavones, this would only provide the oestrogen side. Sorry if this is a daft question but I really struggle to understand what hormone does what😟.
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It's actually a really good question Mis71Mum. I am puzzled by some of the treatments given and it is because of my lack of complete understanding of it all, in particular where gynaes prescribe extra oestrogen without progesterone while a woman is having periods - but that is a different question.
Firstly also you can't compare soy isoflavones with progesterone. Soy isoflavones are not providing oestrogen in the same way - they are phyto-oestrogens which can act like very weak oestrogens - but from what I've read their mode of action is not completely understood.
Re the progesterone. This is my take on it - from my understanding anyway: when you are post-menopausal and have neither oestrogen nor progesterone(well not enough), then when you take HRT the oestrogen stimulates the womb lining to grow in a dose dependent manner ie the more oestrogen you have the more it will grow. Then you need progesterone to keep it thin or make it shed. This is also dose dependent ie the more oestrogen you have the more progesterone you need to thin it properly and make it come away ( that is if you have a cyclical HRT type).
When you are having periods - your body is producing oestrogen (which stimulates the lining to grow ready for pregnancy) and when you ovulate, the empty egg follicle (known as the corpus luteum) produces progesterone until the placenta takes over - or until it is clear fertilisation of the egg has not taken place so the corupus luteum dies and the progesterone level falls triggering the bleed (the lining coming away).
Once you are peri-menopausal some of the cycles are anovulatory - you don't ovulate - so the lining gets thicker and the next bleed is heavier. Also sometimes the oestrogen levels go really high now and again - which also leads to heavy bleeds - so adding a progestogen helps to control the bleeding both from the extra oestrogen ( from HRT or your own body) or lack of progesterone ( from the cycles where you don't ovulate).
I hope this explanation helps but if I haven't shown you already - Dr Currie's article "Perils of the Peri-menopause" on this site explains it much better than I can! http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/article-perils-of-the-perimenopause.php
Hurdity x
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I took Angeliq for two months and was a complete mess. Cystic acne, depression, low energy, anxiety. As soon as i stopped, i started to feel better, though for weeks i had to deal with unsightly scars left by those cysts once they were reabsorbed. Definitely intolerant to progesterone. Then i switched to estrogel+utrogestan (i take utrogestan vaginally for 10 days a month) I am not happy with the progesterone phase but cannot avoid taking it. No acne on utrogestan, but after a few days the depression comes back, and i become antisocial. I just want to hide! I lose interest in my usual activities, my energy levels plummet, my muscles ache as if i had flu, working out becomes almost impossible, i just want to curl up in bed with a book and a cup of tea. It's like being sick for a week a month.
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It's awful ain't it, even though you know that it is cyclical :(
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It's funny how I felt so good for my first pack of Gederal, then after just 4 days off it all the horrible anxiety, dark thoughts and panics came back. But then just seemed to intensify as I sent into the 2nd back, and 2 weeks into the 2nd back I was no better.
Can only think it was a reaction to a build up of synthetic progesterone maybe? The fact that two separate consultants in here advised posters to stop the progesterone immediately shows they must 'know' it can have this effect.
Maddeningly I can't really remember how I genuinely tolerated Utrogestan. I was so up and down the whole 4.5/months I was on HRT. But I think my oestrogen dose of only 25mg patch, then a 50mg patch was never high enough for me.
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Briony : That's the same as me. Typically, I don't respond well to synthetic estogens (Dienogest being the closest to tolerable). Yet with Utrogestan, I felt great ... Until I stopped it! Now been prescribed it fr 25 days, despite still having periods, but am not going to switch until my stomach cramps have eased.
Following this with interest!
Briony can you please explain re your stomach cramps? Do you think it is progesterone related? Reason asking I also have stomach cramps and backache which are more like periodlike pain and not sure whether it is my estrogen dosage being too high or my progesterone I take oralle...??
MatildaMouse
Sorry only just seen your questions. Within days of starting Marvelon, I realised I was constipated. A few days later, I would get period like cramps, especially before I needed a wee. Some days, I needed pain killers. Within a week, I was so bloated and miserable because of it. I struggled to tell if it was a bowel or uterus area issue, but did then start spotting too. Within a month, I looked and felt pregnant so decided to stop it. It remained crampy for a week - not all the time but painful when they occurred - and I got quite worried, but by day 9 of no Marvelon, it was much much better.
Hope that makes it clearer x
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A letter from my consultant said that he wouldn't suggest I use the Mirena coil because of my mood issues, but suggested I use the evorel patches....surely they both have synthetic progesterone in them - I'm confused🤔
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Confusion comes with the territory >:( ::) ……..
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Miss71Mum - that is very strange!!! However, the idea with Mirena is that very little of the (synthetic) progestogen - levonorgestrel - gets into the system, although even this small amount it can cause problems for some women, and if it does I suppose it is there all the time, trickling out a little progestogen into the system, as well as where it is required ie the uterus.
Yes Evorel does contain a different synthetic progestgoen - norethisterone - but because it is being taken cyclically, you only have it for 2 weeks of the month. I presume that is behind your consultant's thinking?
Hurdity x
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Hi ladies, I also don't get on well with the progesterone tablets. I am on Femoston 1/10 and doing ok with it, finding it much better than Prempak C! But still not feeling good during the 2nd half stage of the packet, when I take the blue tablets they give me stomach cramps and period pain about 10 days before the period actually starts. The last couple of months I resorted to cutting them in half, and I still end up having a period at day 28 so do I really need to take a whole tablet? I am about 1 year into peri so still having my own cycle going on in the background. The other thing I do when I was taking whole blue tablets was, once my period started which might be before I get to the end of the pack. I am like yippee had enough of you blue horrible things and throw the remainder away. So I never take the whole 14 blue tablets. As long as I am getting a period is this ok?
I am thinking of changing to the oestrogel/ utro regime instead, does anyone think this will suit me better?
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Tangerinedreams, I know how you feel! I have tried lots of different HRT preparations and find the Oestrogel/Utrogestan combination the best and most effective by far. No other HRT came even close and it was not until I started using the gel that I felt completely normal again and realised how bad the other HRT regimes had been.
There is one small problem and that is the Utrogestan. I am severely intolerant to all types of synthetic progestins (including the Mirena coil) and, to a lesser extent, bio identical Utrogestan so I have to limit my intake (100mg for 7 days per month) and this has to be taken vaginally for both greater absorption and minimal side effects. I also take 1 pump of oestrogel every 12 hours and a tiny bead of testosterone every day.
It sounds like you are also intolerant to synthetic progestins and you might want to give it a try. I honestly think you will find it a big improvement and you may even find that you get on well with the Utrogestan.