Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Alternative Therapies => Topic started by: Jaki T on October 03, 2015, 02:33:00 PM
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Hi there
I'm new to this forum but I have tried so much for my sweats with little success :(
I don't want to take HRT, although I have tried progesterone cream to little avail and also see there are scare stories for this also. I want to try and take something natural but I am afraid to take Black Cohosh because of the rare reports of liver toxicity. I have now bought a product containing red clover which was recommended to me, though not started taking it yet.
I sweat and need to change clothes several times a day. It is really debilitating. It's not a hot sweat - just sweating so that my clothes are wringing. :(
Other members experiences welcome :)
TIA
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Welcome Jaki T! Sorry to hear about your sweating problem but that is exactly what I had when my oestrogen levels became too low. I never had hot flushes but used to sweat more and in lower temperatures than before, it was like my internal thermostat was not working. If I became hot and then moved to an air conditioned room, I would sweat badly.
Can't help you with the natural remedies but I can tell you that oestrogen gel completely cured the sweating problem almost overnight. Prior to the gel, I spent a short spell on Angeliq which was not strong enough and made no difference to the sweating at all - it contained too much progesterone that was suppressing the oestrogen. I then had a blood test to check my oestrogen levels, it became apparent that they were still far too low so no wonder the Angeliq was not working.
Now I am on the oestrogen gel I feel the same as I did at 30 (I'm 54) so in other words, back to normal. If the natural remedies do not work out, give the gel a try, it changed my life!
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Hi and welcome to Jaki T
Sorry to hear you are struggling with meno symptoms - many of us on MM will sympathise.
Some find Red Clover can help if symptoms are mild so it is worth trying.
Sadly I can't recommend any of the 'so called' remedies as I have tried just about everything with no benefit.
I'm afraid HRT is the only 'natural' way to control the flushes and sweats - most HRTs now contain bio identical oestrogen so this is simply replacing what your body would produce naturally. The progesterone cream is expensive and is not deemed strong enough to really do that much. As Mary has suggested it is actually oestrogen that will help the flushes and if you have a uterus (womb) then you need to have opposing progesterone to keep the womb lining from building up - there are different types and ways of using HRT so it's worth finding out more to see if it might be an option for you. Sadly nobody can tell you how long the flushes etc will last and quality of life is important.
Do tell us more about yourself - your age and where you are in the your menopause journey? Why are you so against HRT?
Do read up all the info on this site to get really clued up and get back to us with questions. DG x
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Hi Mary
Many thanks. Yes that's what I'm always saying my body thermostat is broken too! Thanks for recommending the oestrogen gel. Do I get it online or from my GP? As I say I have been nervous about oestrogen replacements because of bad reactions in the past.
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Many thanks, DG.
I am in my mid-50s and my periods have become more erratic but have not finished yet. I have fibromyalgia which makes it difficult to disentangle what it menopausal and what it FM. I am averse to HRT because although I know they are known as bio identical they are still made in the lab with certain risks. I know they're not as extreme as the contraceptive pill but I had such an awful reaction to this and very high blood pressure, I don't want to risk anything approximating it, especially as my blood pressure was a bit elevated last time it was measured.:(
But it maybe I will try the gel as Mary suggested if I don't have any joy with other methods. The compound that I have bought does mention oestrogen like ingredients.
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You have to go to your GP for HRT. You can't use oestrogen without progesterone unless you have had a hysterectomy.
If you have a look and read on the various options at the top of the page then that will help you get to grips on what's on offer. It's best to be clued up before you visit your GP.
Honeybun
X
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Many thanks, DG.
I am in my mid-50s and my periods have become more erratic but have not finished yet. I have fibromyalgia which makes it difficult to disentangle what it menopausal and what it FM. I am averse to HRT because although I know they are known as bio identical they are still made in the lab with certain risks. I know they're not as extreme as the contraceptive pill but I had such an awful reaction to this and very high blood pressure, I don't want to risk anything approximating it, especially as my blood pressure was a bit elevated last time it was measured.:(
But it maybe I will try the gel as Mary suggested if I don't have any joy with other methods. The compound that I have bought does mention oestrogen like ingredients.
The thing that you need to consider is that ALL meds (including the so-called "natural" ones") are all made in a lab. The only difference is that the regulated HRT that you get from a doctor has been thoroughly tested and approved for a specific use. All those other "natural" and alternative remedies have not had the same amount of testing, and could have all sorts of unknown additives. Also, just because something is grown in nature, idoesn't make it will be completely safe for us to consume. Some of these alternate remedies can have serious side effects.
In all honesty, the only "natural" way to treat menopause symptoms is with the approved HRT that you get from your doctor.
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Jaki T - Dana is absolutely right. It is precisely because the HRT preparations, available here in the UK, are produced in the lab and only available with prescription, that they are safer than the compounded hormones that are available in the USA. Compounded hormones are not usually regulated so the risks are greater.
It is well worth reading up all the info on this site to get really clued up. There are many misconceptions about remedies as opposed to prescribed HRT - after all something that is prescribed has been extensively tested so risks and benefits are well known. Yes, there can be some side effects with HRT and if you have suffered badly with BCP (birth control pills) in the past I can understand your anxiety. How you approach coping with the menopause I think depends on 'quality of life' - if your meno symptoms are limiting you life and if appropriate diet, exercise and sensible vitamin supplements are not truly helping, then HRT is an option worth trying.
I would suggest you print off some info from this site, try to find out which GP at your practise is clued up about the meno and make an appointment to discuss things. If there is a meno clinic in your area ask to referral for advice.
We really understand about the anxieties that many women have regarding HRT with so many scares stories in the press but do bare in mind that apparently 5 years of HRT in our 50s can protect against osteoporosis, heart disease, and even reduce our risk of bowel cancer in the long term. Using HRT is very much a personal choice but this site is here to educated and support women through this often very challenging time in our lives. Taboo and misinformation can get in the way of a positive way forward. Keep posting DG x
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Hi - thanks for all your replies. Yes, I am aware about the testing and the risk of taking those remedies that are 'natural'. DG you hit the nail on the head here: There are many misconceptions about remedies as opposed to prescribed HRT - after all something that is prescribed has been extensively tested so risks and benefits are well known. Yes, there can be some side effects with HRT and if you have suffered badly with BCP (birth control pills) in the past I can understand your anxiety. And that is the issue. For me it's not so much misinformation or scare stories, it's past experience. No matter how great or little the risks there is nothing so reliable as one's previous experience and when I was on the contraceptive pill my blood pressure went through the roof and I really felt if I continued I would have a blood clot. I felt I had a lucky escape. My BP took a long time to go down too, even after I stopped taking it. It was top end of normal before I took it. So although it may prevent some against heart disease I have been burnt I'm afraid. However a gel might be very much diluted so I won't rule that out. I am seeing my GP tomorrow so can mention it again. Or maybe she has some other suggestions. The 'natural' oestrogen I was referring to contains red clover and phyto oestrogens. I've not heard any adverse affects to Red Clover (unlike Black Cohosh where there has been some research and rare negative reporting) but that's not to say there are none. x
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Thanks Dana :foryou:
Foxgloves are natural ……….. (digitalis) ;)
Some people find that 'herbal/alternative' remedies help but when their hormones overwhelm them the effect is lost.
"progesterone cream ….. " via your GP? some HRT has to be used on a regular basis to gain good effect. I certainly know if I don't use my VA treatment often enough ::)
Scare stories in the Press are often that: scaring. Because the Press pull out what they want to sell papers with and the research can be years old! >:( Also: there's that proverbial bus round the corner ;)
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Hi jaki
The thing to bear in mind is not whether the oestrogen is 'natural' to plants or horses or whatever, but whether the molecule shape and structure is exactly identical to that which is made in the human body.
Also the BCP delivers far higher levels of hormones and often a different type of hormone than most HRT - why don't you look up the ingredients of the BCP that you took and then compare them with say a low dose HRT patch .... Use the tabs at the top of the page for examples and then Google them for exact contents. Ask your doctor which bit of the pill raised your blood pressure..
There is research to prove that Japanese ladies who have a diet high in soy do not report many menopause symptoms - however they are now dealing with an epidemic of osteoporosis.
Speak to your doctor and then do lots more research !
HTH
Pollie
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Thanks Pollie! It's true too that the Asians are eating far more Macs and KFC :o which has altered the whole way menopause in particular is affecting ladies :(
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Hi CLKD
No it's not scare stories from the press, it's from my own experience - see above post of mine.
I did get unlicensed projuven cream from my GP for a while on prescription but as soon as they started to charge for it I ordered Serenity Cream online. Not sure it's doing that much really.
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Hi Pollie
It's so many years ago since I was on the pill I have no idea what levels were in it, it wasn't this GP or even the area I'm now in. I think it was microgynal I was taking (?), something like that, and a pretty low dose at the time. I suppose it may be on my records somewhere but don't think my GP will have time to go back nearly 40 years ago especially with the pressure on time and I have other things I need to discuss with her.
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Jaki T
You really need to try to put your past experiences behind you. Even the new BCPs are different these days and may not give as many problems as the older types that our generation took.
I am wondering why you have an issue with blood pressure?? If you do try HRt they will test your blood pressure beforehand and if it is high this needs to be treated anyway.
Do you exercise at all? Are you carrying a bit too much weight? For many women a good diet and exercise regime is vital in coping with the meno and if you do have problems with your blood pressure then this can be controlled with Beta blockers alongside HRT. Your GP may suggest an SRRI/AD to help control the meno symptoms but many of us on MM feel this should not be the first line of treatment for meno symptoms - they also bring their side effects and problems and HRT does bring other benefits which an SRRI can't e.g HRT can help prevent vaginal atrophy and bladder problems.
Just to clarify - you will not be allowed to use Oestrogel even in a low dose without some form of progesterone but there is also the bio identical progesterone you can try - this is called Utrogestan. DG x
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They eats lots of fish too apparently ::)
Many ladies who choose the Veil suffer lack of VitD too ::)
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Jaki T, sorry for the belated reply. Yes, you do have to get oestrogen gel from your doctor but if they refuse, you can get it online.
I have been round the block on this and can tell you that the gel has worked the best for me by far. It is bio identical and works best when unopposed by progesterone. However, if you still have a womb, you must take progesterone for either 7 days per month or for 20 days every three months. I am severely intolerant to artificial progesterone (I never had a problem with the progesterone I produced myself, only the artificial stuff) so I have to limit the use to the barest minimum but there is no reason why you should have the same problem. Most doctors recommend using Utrogestan for the progesterone part.
All the bad press regarding HRT was from the old stuff they churned out years ago which was mainly oral, not much good and too high in progesterone. The newest bio identical HRT is a different kettle of fish altogether and does not carry the breast cancer risks - it is the progesterone side of HRT that causes all the problems so that is why its use must limited.
Hope that helps.
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Hi DG
My blood pressure was normal more or less after I came off the pill.
Blood pressure goes up with age plus I have more weight on either due to the menopause and because of anti-depressants but they have helped me enormously with anxiety so it's a trade off. My bp isn't excessively high, but I was told it was bit high when I had my last two readings.
The thing is I have other conditions. I walk as I don't have a car but I have Fibromyalgia so I have debilitating fatigue. Diet is good. Could be better. I wouldn't use beta blockers again, they made be blackout.
What is an srri? Do you mean SSRI? As you see I'm already taking a low dose and was told this can help some people with sweats but hasn't helped me!
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Buy a blood pressure machine and take it before breakfast every morning for 3 months. Make notes. Bet your readings are within normal limits and that when taken in the Surgery, you have White Coat Syndrome ::)
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I used to get white coat syndrome but after having had so many normal readings the main worry was the pain of having my blood pressure taken (the automatic ones hurt me too much). But it'd still be normal. Last time I wasn't worried and then it was up. ???
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The exam. shouldn't hurt, it can be uncomfortable but that goes as soon as the pressure is let off.
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That's the Fibromyalgia which means it doesn't hurt most people but hurts people with FM because of the way pain is processed :(
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Jaki I understand your concerns about your past experience with the BCP, but it was probably the progestin that you reacted to and the dose of progestin in the BCP is much higher than in HRT. There are alternatives of a natural progesterone called Utrogestin. I've chosen not to use Utrogestan and stick to a progestin, but I only have to use it for 10 days a month. If I was to take a higher dose of progestin or take it for longer like on the BCP I would have problems too, but because I only need to take a fairly low dose for on 10 days I have no problem with it at all.
As for "white coat syndrome", I definitely have that. If I donate blood my blood pressure would always be fine, but if my doctor took it it would be up, and of course that can ring some alarm bells with HRT. So my doctor suggested I start taking it at home, so I do and every time I take it it's fine. I just write the results in a note pad and show it to her when I see her and she's happy to trust me.
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Ah Jaki T - thanks.
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Dana
I have taken progesterone in cream form (Serenity) and Projuven. Maybe that explains why my bp has risen after being normal for years!
Even when they attempted to take my bp with one of those auto ones that strangle your arm (I have had to stop them before now) my bp wasn't up in spite of the anxiety about the pain.
I'm not convinced anyway that it was the progesterone in the pill that was the problem and not the oestrogen. I spoke with my GP about it again the other day and yes there are risks re blood clotting and thrombosis with HRT even 'bioidentical ones' so I don't want to go down that road
Progesterone cream hasn't really helped with the sweating anyway.
Sorry I am missing replies as I've not worked out how to link with my emails.
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How large are the risks though?
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I don't know, but there is some risk and because of my history of bp it's not a risk I'm happy to take
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Did your GP not tell you the exact risks :-\ - they are sometimes good at picking problems out of the air without being explicit!
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Hi CLKD
No, I said I was worried about increased risk of clots and strokes etc because of my past experience on the pill and my GP said there was a slight risk. I know it's probably low but I have to take into account my previous bp problems and also the fact that I'm thirty years older now and bp is more at risk when you're older.
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Your GP should have discussed this further with you >:( not fobbed you off with 'small risk'.
However ::)
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Hi jaki
you're damned if you do and damned if you don't !! :)
Oestrogen can be beneficial in that it can help prevent bone loss/osteoporosis, it can improve deep sleep which in turn can help with muscle repair/recovery and give you more energy allowing you to excercise, it can improve mood which can lead you to being more active and eat more healthily rather than crave sugar or alcohol, and it can improve skin and hair allowing some women to feel better about themselves.
There is also some research that indicates that some women with fribromyalgia have benefitted from oestrogen therapy but you will have to obviously search the Internet to see that for yourself.
Yes there are risks - but each woman has to find the right balance .
You can't possibly know the risks with 'natural herbal therapy,' because they aren't researched or measured. Many natural remedies can be very potent especially when taken alongside prescription drugs.
HTH
Pollie
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Good post Pollie - I'd like to add a few more benefits that HRT brings: prevention of bladder problems, UTI type symptoms, vaginal atrophy and also HRT can reduce the risk of developing bowel cancer!!!!
Being overweight, smoking and drinking alcohol actually bring a higher risk of developing breast cancer than using HRT.
There are risks and side effects with almost anything we take. The notion that herbal remedies are a safer alternative is misleading and these should be used with caution - after all many of the prescribed drugs we are given by our doctors, that are tried and tested, are derived from natural sources like botanicals.
DG x
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Thanks for your replies.
CLKD, my GP didn't just fob me off and I'm sure she would have given me more info had I asked but I was seeing her about a lot of other things and I was aware how late washed was running because she gives people a lot of time. Plus she knows I am anxious and wary about HRT.
Pollie, yes I'm aware of the proposed benefits of oestrogen, People on thyroid boards will also swear by the benefits of T3 and T4. I'm trying to balance other people's reports with my negative ones :(
DG, I have had bladder problems all my life. I don't drink or smoke. Yes I'm aware of side effects of herbals which is why I've not taken those yet either!
Many thanks
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Jaki T, you may be interested to know that although I have never had thyroid problems, when I increased my dose of oestrogen, my all my thyroid readings came out lower i.e. better than when when I was on the lower dose. I don't think it's any coincidence so it might help you. My cholesterol was also lower.
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I'm glad that you didn't feel fobbed off ;) ………