Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Other Health Discussion => Topic started by: honeybun on January 29, 2015, 04:02:11 PM
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There has been a lot in the press about this over the past couple of days.
It's quite worrying to be honest.
Has anyone made any concrete plans on how care is to be payed for if it's required.
I would love to be able to leave my kids something after I am gone but it's probably not going to happen. I don't want to be a financial burden on them either.
It's not exactly something you start to save for in your twenties and then by the time you have payed a mortgage and the bottomless pit that is children it's enough to be saving for your retirement .
Honeyb
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It depends on where in the UK we live. My Financial Advisor; Mum's FA; the good weekend Pension advice all say to give the children money NOW! in small amounts. We are allowed to give a certain amount annually and it ain't a lot in cash terms but 1 is allowed to buy a car, put down a property deposit, pay for holidays etc. without tax man being interested.
It's when people make over their houses to children as a way of avoiding paying care fees - the property can be snatched back! It's when people don't ask independent financial advice that muddles happen. Mum was advised after Dad died to make a Trust Fund where the annual interest pays a dividend to be shared between my sister and me: the Divi gets paid into Mum's bank yearly, she makes out 2 cheques: hey presto!
Paying for Financial Advice can pay dividends ;) …….
If 1 has children then setting up a 'fund' is probably the way to go or pay them an amount monthly which they can then save ….. that way they are getting money not expected, they can put it into accounts which pay long-term interest for 'later' ;-).
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Our FA told us to spend our money. Also said we can gift money too. We will need to seek further advice in a few years I'm sure.
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We have an annual review. It takes the whole day 'cos he's here chatting for ages ::) before, during and after …… but it is well worth the annual update! as issues change and when we get a new government, Pension etc. will probably change again! Just don't buy an annuity ;)
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I don't want to get too political but yesterday on the news the current health minister/secretary (I can't remember his name) actually called for there to be a cross party collaboration in regards to social care. I think it's high time they took health and social care out of the political arena so they can come to some realistic and practical solutions about how to address our nations needs. It's quite ridiculous to have parties fighting over this issue and not really addressing the real needs. We all want to feel safe with the NHS and know we will be treated well in our old age. Yes the whole thing is unwieldy and inefficient and needs some co-ordinated restructuring to prevent the very evident waste of funds but I believe we simply have to start paying more into the system. No single party is going to stand up and admit this but if they all get together and say to us we have to pay more NI then so be it. Yes it should be earnings related and frankly if people have a good income from their pensions (maybe over £35,000 per year) then NI should continue to be paid beyond retirement.
The politicians have tried to persuade us to take out insurance for care in our old age but many of us simply can't afford to do this. We are moving more and more towards a two tier system where those that can afford to go privately get what they need and everyone else gets the barest minimum.
Sorry for the rant - I find the whole thing quite frightening. DG x
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What would be a 'good income' though? It's like telling people who own a house 'over £1M' to pay extra tax :-\
We have paid towards our NI but that is never likely to cover all that is likely to be required! Those that haven't paid towards NI will currently get basic state funded care …….. others can choose what we pay towards, i.e. holidays, total hip replacements, money towards children/grand-children in the way of education/cars/deposits.
I believe we should pay for our daily live-style as we see fit because we could drop dead sooner rather than later and never get to spend it!
The State will have to find a way of providing care over-all but that probably won't happen in my Life time. I believe that everyone should have full nursing care available from the start. It is awful to be in a care home then have to move because that home doesn't provide nursing care >:( or care for people with dementia etc.. All 'homes' should have nursing staff from the start, our local home doesn't insist on all their staff having a basic first aid knowledge ::) ……. and residents have to move house when different needs become necessary :'(
In England medical care should be 'free at the point of delivery' but it isn't clear where 'point of delivery' begins ::) so even if a person pays for B&B, any medical care should be on the NHS. It is also important to remember that it costs money to provide care for a person. In the private sector monies go towards the upkeep of the building and gardens, insurances, TV Licence, re-decorating between clients, on going new carpets etc.; staff pensions, staff insurances, training: any trips 'out and about', any transport costs to hospital/church/chapel …… so £35,000 per annum on private 'care' seems a lot but it is important to find out what the actual break-down is.
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I'd have to sell the house to do this "My Financial Advisor; Mum's FA; the good weekend Pension advice all say to give the children money NOW! in small amounts." as there's no money anywhere else!
Taz x :D
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So speak to a financial advisor which is free at your bank Taz but they of course, will only tell clients about the Products that are supported by that particular organisation.
Speaking with a Financial Advisor is not expensive! leaving it to the Government may turn out *to* be!
StellaJane - I hear all you say, having had a glimpse into the various states of 'care'. Would you be prepared to boost her funds …….. maybe now is the time to talk to the Manager of the 'company' which runs this establishment. I expect that she has needed to sign a 'contract' - Dad's stated that he could be ousted with 7 days notice should he become difficult :-\
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It doesn't exactly answer my question.
What provision have you made.
If your hubby needs care before you, do they go into a council funded home or do you sell your home to provide for him. Then when your time comes what happens then.
I don't have a financial adviser. I own half of another house.....does that count or is that mine.
My hubby is ten years older than me. What happens if he needs more care than I can give him.
It's a complete nightmare that no politician has a good answer for.
There are no insurance companies that even provide a policy for the younger ones.
It's really a problem that needs addressing.....oh and I have no money to give to my kids now....I need it for our old age ::)
Honeyb
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Sorry - I haven't made any provision as there's no money to make provision with. There's no point talking to a financial advisor if you have no spare money!!
Taz x :)
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I agree Taz, I manage on what I have coming in every month but there is nothing of any great amount left over.
That's what worries me as we get older.
Honeyb
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We are taking each year as it arrives. When DH retired his Health Care stopped. We haven't made any provision for hip replacement etc. nor for future residential care.
In England if family owns their property but a person in the household needs care, those reliant on that home cannot be turfed out in order to fund care. A person should only be charged for 'nursing' care over and above anything not 'free at the point of delivery' but it is difficult to find out what that covers exactly. I believe that the 'home' will be sold after the person has died to cover fees ……. for the person left behind, hopefully by then the Government will have got their act together.
All physical/mental health care is free ………. dentistry however is not, even under the NHS. There are certain things that are now seen as 'cosmetic' >:(, therefore not covered by the NHS.
So a person receiving nursing care whether at home or in residential/nursing home should not have to pay for care - funds should be for B&B only. Stellajane: what excuse has been given to mean that your Mum has had to move ? because I can't see any nursing care which would be 'extra' where ever it is given: hospital, retirement home, care home, nursing home ……. :-\ …..
As stated, one can accept state funded care - which may mean sharing a room, with no en-suite; in some places I have known that the residents don't even get their own clothing, it all goes into a cupboard and is doled out ……. :'( hopefully if one is paying for a place that shouldn't happen. I would expect if I were paying for a place then all the Staff were ex-nurses!
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When my step father went into a private care home for respite it was a damned sight worse than some of the council ones he had been in before. It was a BUPA one and the level of care was shocking. That was his last respite and I think the level of care contributed to his rapid decline in health. He never had to share a room in any of the homes that he was in. I visited every single one he stayed in and they were numerous. They varied wildly in the standards offered and I found the council ones to be every bit as good if not better than the very expensive private ones.
It's very sad really that this is how we look after the generation that survived the war years.
In Scotland the elderly are entitled to free care at home. The standards again vary. The council contract out care to various agencies. There is no continuity in the carers and frequently strangers turn up that don't have a clue what they are supposed to be doing. I suppose it's better than nothing but it's far from ideal.
Honeyb
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My FIL wanted to go into BUPA one which was along the road from where he stayed, so we went for a visit. Last place on earth we would have put him! We didn't announce we were coming, just arrived, which is best way to do it. You see it as it really is.
He lived in a council house & was put in the first home available, wouldn't have been our choice but were left with no option. He got some funding but much of his precious savings went towards his care. Daughter saw many faults in the care provided. However, whilst training she went to a VSA home. Said that when our time comes she'll try & get us a place there. Standard of care was top notch according to her.
When our kids are of that age, they probably won't have enough savings. They'll be lucky to have a decent pension.
There was an article on the news today about a chap whose mum needed care for dementia in her 60s. They'd tried to cope with her needs at home, but it became apparent she needed more. FA advisor told them best thing was to sell her house & invest the money to pay for her care, but reckoned with rising costs the maximum the money would last for is 6-7 years. Sad state of affairs. My mum's house was sold for her care. Nearly 20 years ago it cost about £1000 per month. She had a shared room, single rooms were kept for the very frail & infirm. Nowadays most are single rooms with private bathrooms. Shared ones are for couples.
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Interesting topic ladies this is what I found after much research and meeting and speaking to accountants and lawyers and 2 IFAs in Scotland where i live. Dont know if this is of any help to anyone or not but I was doing this to help parents with the process.
Parents needed to downsize house so they sold it.
They wanted to buy new house themselves, live in it but sign it over to my sister and i, thinking this would clear them of any Inheritance tax (IT) liabilities / care home fees etc.
It doesnt.
As far as the tax man is concerned this is called a reservation of benefit under tax rules and as far as councils are concerned they can still chase for the care home money if they think you have done this to deliberately avoid the fees and they can go back years.
Best method is for parents to sell house.
Gift kids money.
The kids can then use the gifted money to buy another house by physically paying the lawyer the money for it out of their own bank account. It could not come from the parents bank account direct to the lawyer.
The parents can then live in the house free of any rent etc.
When they die or need care the house cannot be considered as one of their own personal assets.
All gifts should be recorded and dated by the doner and the recipient (keeps it all tidy)
Around £3000 per tax year can be gifted from both mother and father, these amounts cannot be considered as trying to avoid IT.
Sometimes if no gifts have been made in the previous tax year the allowance can be carried forward.
As far as i am aware if a property is jointly owned by a couple and one requires care a charge could be put against their share of the house. The remaining person cannot be forced into selling but the charge would be repaid at eventual point of sale.
In scotland there is sometime the case that the nhs pays for the care home its called nhs continuing care and under that circumstance no charge can be put against the house.
Very complicated.
HB As for your original question i havent thought about care homes yet.
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We had no end of problems with finding the right home for my lovely mother-in-law and most of her hard earned savings and funds from the sale of her sheltered flat went on her care. She was very distressed that any money was going towards this care as she desperately wanted her two children to inherit all her savings. She had dementia and in fact lived far longer than expected as they looked after her so well in this home. When she got distressed about the money I just 'white lied' to her about how it was being paid for.
The recent posts on these thread illustrate my point that the whole thing is too unwieldy, it is grossly unfair, stressful for all concerned and I expect there is an unnecessary waste of funds at all sorts of levels. We have been the sandwich generation that may well have had the time and resources to ensure our elderly relatives have the care they need. Our children may well not have this time or the resources and frankly I wouldn't want them to have to deal with all the stress. Of course we need to face this issue but I think it is really up to the government, from all sides of the political spectrum, to look at what needs to be done, simplify it, make it more efficient and if we all have to pay more NI to receive good care in our old age then so be it.
DG x
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What a good thread. Thanks for all the input. I believe that in England if children buy the property from parents, that they have to charge rent and rates as if it's a business arrangement. We tried to encourage my Mum to keep details of all the monies she pays out since Dad died in 2006. However ::)
As for using up savings, that else is it for? If parents want to give their children a surprise it is better to give it as they 'go along' to avoid inheritance tax etc.. Savings should be used for care otherwise.
Gives us a lot to think about!
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What an excellent thread - so much to discuss and of crucial importance as life expectancy continues to extend way beyond retirement - and probably way beyond what was envisaged when our National Insurance system began.
Fortunately I haven't had to think about this properly yet (mother in good health, independent, and still in her own home) although it does concern me every time I hear about it - so I know very little about the system and all its complexities.
I completely agree with Dancinggirl - this needs sorting urgently irrespective of political ideology, and we all need to pay for it. If all parties agreed we would increase NI etc with a specific portion understood to be some sort of care bond or something (really know nothing about this!) then it would prevent any one party scoring points or losing votes about increasing spending. The standard of care could hopefully be increased so as to be good quality across the board including state funded care.
I also agree with CLKD - there is no obligation or right to pass anything onto our children - of course it would be nice, but if our houses have to be sold - then so be it - we've bought them after all! Many people haven't this luxury. It is the standard of care for those that run out of money that is crucial.
The other thorny issue which has been referred to is the nursing care vs social care, and the distinction between them. My older brother has a slow degenerative illness which will mean he will need care at some point - maybe for some things fairly soon. However this will count as social care, therefore it won't receive funding, even though it is a medical condition, the same as if he needed social care through "normal" ageing - whatever that is - and perhaps it is right that there is no distinction, although in his case the social care needs could well be needed for a very long time.
I think it may be different in Scotland? Why is the system so much better in many respects in Scotland - prescriptions, student tuition fees etc? You don't pay higher taxes etc do you? I don't understand how the money can be found there but not here in England. Bit of a digression .....
Hurdity x
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Yes some things are better here but who knows how long it will last. Much smaller population may have something to do with it.
I hope we can keep mother where she is until....well you know. We do have a bit of a tricky situation with her house though and how we would fix it out heaven only knows. Many years ago when council houses were for sale my sister and I bought my mothers house. We gave her the money and she bought it in her own name because she was the tenant. You were not allowed to sell for a set amount of years....I can't remember how long but about twenty years ago the ownership of the house was transferred into my and my sisters name so we are the legal owners. We have no way to prove it was our money that paid for the house.........so how would it work if she needs to go into a home. It's not her property and never has been. It's worth a good bit now.....bit of a dilemma.
Honeyb
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Really not sure. It could be seen as being gifted to us as a way of avoiding having to pay for care but it was done so many years ago. Neither her nor my step father ever paid rent to us but they made lots of changes to the house.
I think it could potentially be a nightmare. As far as sis and I were concerned it was an investment for our old age.
Honeyb
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Honeybun - this was done via a Solicitor at the time? if so the date may well mean avoiding inheritance tax
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Yes all done by solicitor who holds the deeds.
Just to make it more complicated the loan was actually taken out by my hubby....so technically :-\
Honeyb
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Have a chat with the Solicitor? There will be Deeds in your/sister's names? if not get it sorted ………. ;)
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HB,
I think 7 years is the magic number. If you became owners more than 7 years ago, then the house is yours. If your mum had to go into care within that 7 years then the 'proceeds' of the house 'sale' would be required to pay for care. So you are ok.
Bramble
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We have taken advice from a financial adviser and are trying to make plans so as much of our money can go to our children as possible. Our son has mild special needs, is therefore vulnerable so we need to try to set him up so he is not at the mercy of the state. Our kids are unlikely to earn the kind of money that will get them on the property ladder so we may well have to down size to help them. Whilst our pensions will not be too bad if we manage to work till we are 70, the income may twiddle in real terms and if we pass too much of our savings and assets to our children in our lifetime this could cause problems as we get more frail and perhaps need support.
What gets me is that those who have worked hard to buy a home and save a bit for a pension end up having to pay for their care whereas there will be many who never save anything yet they will still be looked after.
My parents-in-law were a classic case in point; they had divorced when my husband was 16 as my father-in-law had affairs and was getting the family into terrible debt. He ended up living in a lovely Alms flat for gentlemen of meagre means and continued his smoking, drinking and enjoying his life on his state pension with not a thought for any one else. When he got to 87 he became ill and frail and was put into a very good nursing home with wonderful round the clock care where he eventually died but he didn't have to pay for any of it. My mother-in-law had worked all her life and actually worked well into her 60s in a menial book keeping job for the local authority, saved everything she could, bought a small victorian terraced house that was a wreck and she renovated it herself. She helped both her children whenever she could and often helped with their finances etc. When we could no longer support her in her retirement flat and she had to go into a home, most of her hard earned savings and assets went on her care - as I said before, it really distressed her that her money was being used for the care home.
I am already having to pay for private medical and dental treatment on things I really feel should be available for all - I saw a gynae privately about my meno symptoms and now I've got to fork out about £1000 to save a tooth because the NHS dentist won't do the treatment! We are far from well off but I can do without holidays so would rather get the treatment I need with the money.
I would like to know that whatever our financial situation is we will be treated with kindness and respect by well trained staff and I want this for everyone. DG x
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I think it may be a bit of a pipe dream DG. My hubby is now officially retired or an old age pensioner as he keeps saying.....which drives me nuts as I am ten years younger.....anyway.
He always payed a lot of money into pension schemes but as he moved jobs a lot we have pensions from all over the place.
We did plan and we are not too badly off. We really don't want to down size any more than we have....went from a Victorian barn of a place to a three bed bungalow. My son wants us to consider equity release if we think we are short....not keen.....I do know a few people who have done this and it doesn't seem particularly sensible to me.
Our "investment " in mothers house was for our retirement. It was a calculated risk that house prices would go up....and relatively speaking they have.
Not sure what mother expects though as she told me the other day we would have to pay for full time private care...in her own home....care for her.
Don't think....well I know my hubby won't even consider that at all.
Bramble...I do hope you are right. Might give the solicitor a call and see what he says.
Honeyb
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So much dental care is seen as 'cosmetic' under the NHS >:(
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Totally out of order CLKD.
My son is really pleased he has private medical care through his firm. He could have another family member included on his policy, as he is single he put his sisters name on for private cover......that's them sorted then ::)
Honeyb
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:-\ …………… :'(
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Eh ?
Honeyb
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I'm lost - what's totally out of order? Dental care?
Taz x :-\
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I think the fact that what used to be normal dental care is now considered cosmetic.
At least that's how I understood it.
Honeyb
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Ah yes - I agree! I thought you meant that CLKD was out of order ;
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Oh sorry CLKD, that just reads wrong. I was actually agreeing with you.
:wub:
Hate the written word or at least the way I write it......I am such a diddy sometimes.
Honeyb
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Stellajane - I do agree - the building doesn't necessarily reflect the care but we all need aesthetic surroundings for our mental wellbeing. On the day my mother-in-law had to go into the home, my husband, his sister and I planned the day like a military operation to reduce her distress. I collected her and took her for a day with her grandchildren while my husband and his sister collected certain bits of furniture and possessions we knew were important to her e.g. books, pictures, favourite bedding etc and arranged the room in the nursing home to look as much like her flat as possible - tried to create home from home. We all found it a very traumatic day as nobody wants to have to put a loved one in a home - the guilt is terrible. We hadn't been able to get her to eat or drink properly and she wouldn't let social services help her so we didn't have any choice as none of us had suitable homes for her to stay with us. Within weeks she had plumped up and looked so much better.
The slow, dwindling stage of dementia is horrible to see and it's the thing I most dread happening to me - we simply don't know whether someone is experiencing mental or physical distress with this type of disease/illness.
DG x
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PHEW!
yep 7 years is the magic number apprently, so far Mum has out-lived it ::)
ype, people less qualified will be paid less ....... remember that years ago we had 'auxillary' nurses in hospitals, apparently that level of care has now gone. Those were the girls who didn't want to take exams but were happy to give 'care' ...... a cuppa in the early hours, holding hands when required; now nurses have to take degrees - of course technology has moved on so it is to be expected that education must cover the understanding of such technology but to cut out the lower orders ....... leaves a HUGE gap.
These girls then moved into care homes to continue giving care - then money stepped in, Companies became involved offering 'health care' from as stated, plush buildings. However, as often with Hotels, 'front of house' looks good, upstairs maybe not :-\
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Surroundings are especially crucial to people with dementia - research has shown for example that strong patterns on clothing/wallpaper can evoke certain troubling memories and affect mood - so yes they matter as much to these people as with everyone else.
Hurdity x
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Hi Ladies
I am about to put my house in trust to both my children. This way they get the home and money if they choose to sell it and the government cannot use it to fund my care fees later on......
Hope it helps
Ms January x
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Mrs. January - I didn't think we were allowed to do this anymore but perhaps a trust can sort this in some way? I'm sure this is very expensive to set up as well. Maybe any care fees will come out of the inheritance or when the house is sold? The government keeps finding way to stop people avoiding payment for care so it's getting harder and harder to find legal ways to do this.
My husband and I certainly plan to downsize at some stage to pass as much as possible to our kids to avoid inheritance tax and money going on our care. DG x
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My son has told me if I ever need full time care then he will pick me out a nice care home ;D. He did make me laugh. At his age....old age seems like another land...when you reach your 50/60s time seems to be speeding up.
I know it's daft but it's not really something I even want to consider at the moment. I see how frail my mother has become and to be honest this whole getting older thing scares me. Burying my head in the sand won't help at all but in reality apart from a house what other assets do most people have.
Council homes around my area are generally very good so that's one thing anyway.
Has anyone considered equity release. I keep getting emails about it. Don't think its a terrible good idea and I'm not old enough anyway but if I ever became very short of money it might be worth a look.
Honeyb
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Hi
I am just about to take out a new mortgage and the company suggested' to trust to my children' also our pension advisor told me too about three years ago.
This will prevent the house being used to fund my care fees and also to avoid the ex taking it from them. A friend of mine has neighbour in care but the grandson lives in this house three nights a week and it is all legal so the house can't be sold to fund care fees x
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Maybe need to look into it further HB. Maybe there would a way round your mum's house being used for fees as it actually belongs to you & your sister. After all you may want to keep it on & rent it out.
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A 'trust' fund works until the person funding the money dies - my Mum has 1 which pays an annual dividend to me and my sister until she dies when it stops.
If you have had advice Mrs J that should work well. AgeUK has leaflets on equity release - I think the property is sold to the Company and the 'owner' lives there, it's who covers maintenance, property and contents insurances, heating etc. that needs careful checking. I don't know if the 'owner' has to then pay rent/rates ………… worth looking into, no one 'has' to make decisions and there are several Companies that offer it.
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My husband and his sisters husband are taking out a 'power of attorney' for my father in law. He is getting really forgetful and having trouble remembering to pay his bills. The trouble is he is getting worse very fast and goodness knows what he will be like this time next year. My sister in law says 'he won't go into a home', but I'm wondering if this is because she is more concerned about her inheritance than his safety.
I have decided to take a back seat as am sure any advice I might give will be taken in the wrong way.
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Stellajane - I agree with you entirely. Having seen the devastating effects of dementia with my mother-in-law (she did a power of attorney in plenty of time) we all need to prepare in case this happens to us. Unfortunately my mother won't countenance giving us power of attorney - she wouldn't dream of relinquishing any control. We are in for trouble!!!!! :-X
We none of us know what the future brings. We are planning to avoid as much inheritance tax as possible so we can at least leave our son(with slight special needs) more safe and secure However if we downsize we would still have a property that could fund our care if need be. Also I would downsize to something that might enable us to stay in our home for longer anyway. I think it is bonkers to expect to stay in a large house that is unsuitable as we get more frail.
What we would be sad about is perhaps having to leave our village. What I feel is really needed are more assisted living homes in all areas so people can stay in communities they know and it is easier to give support. I personally think there should be tax breaks for those who are prepared to downsize, releasing family homes for young families. At present the assisted living type flats and houses are not ideal in their set up and need to be made more attractive.
My husband and I walk round our lovely village and point at houses on large plots and dream about pulling down the (frankly ugly) house and putting 4-6 retirement cottages there for us to move to along with some of our neighbours in 10-15 years time. At the recent 'Village Plan' meeting, assisted living homes were put forward but apparently when someone tried to include these in a recent housing development it was rejected - 'affordable houses' were preferred even though there aren't any jobs for youngsters in this area unless they have a car!!!!!
DG x
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I cannot understand why people moan that they have to sell their property etc. to fund their 'care' >:( ….. "I wanted to give it to my children" - well give it then :bang: ………
Personal Financial Advisors have access to lots of Products whereas a Bank will push those available. Once we had obtained advice we were sent a Report confirming the suggestions made. DH read this through and approved the choices and we went ahead. We have an Annual Review for which we pay nowt ;)
This Report was also validated by the Company to which our FA is seconded to, so that if he should make any 'mistakes', it is noted! so he can't be seen to be pushing a Product for his own interest. After the initial fees, any money he makes is from the Investment Company/ies he chooses to invest our monies with, so he needs the monies to do well! So far in 5 years we have been on the 'up' ;) :-* ……. and our investments have done well so we haven't had to pay out.
DH wants to eventually sell this property to down-size ;D …….. yeah, sure …… [looks round at all the 'stuff'] …..
I agree with Stellajane - I am already quietly looking at places should Mum require extra care. Currently at aged 88 she bombs around with Church/Chapel, coffee mornings, coach trips 'out' ::) - we have to make an appt to visit! but the house and garden are large and she occasionally feels weary with it all. Any suggestion that she looks though seems to spur her on!
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Mum and I don't 'get on' ……… :-\ ………… but I hear you ;)