Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Alternative Therapies => Topic started by: sprush1 on February 13, 2025, 12:11:43 PM
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I had a UTI in early January that I hope has responded to 2 lots of Nitrofurantoin. Urine samples have been sent for analysis and nothing has shown up. I’m being referred for a renal scan to rule out anything nasty as my late mother had kidney cancer.
It’s been many years since I had a UTI so it’s all rather alien.
I’m 67 and had the menopause 25 years ago. I have tried HRT patches in the past but decided they weren’t for me.
I’ve decided that my problems are linked to vaginal atrophy not least because of pain in my vagina (no burning or itching), and frequent urination.
My GP has prescribed Vagifem pessaries but I’m loathe to try them.
I started taking Optibac for Women and I’m using YES VM moisturiser. (I’m not sexually active).
I also started Bladapure but have stopped that because I think the D Mannose in it is what’s making me wee even more.
Any thoughts or advice from fellow sufferers would be gratefully appreciated.
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Why? Unless VA is treated apppropriate U will continue to get UTI symptoms because VA mimics that really really well.
What's your worry?
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CLKD thank you. I do realise that. My reason for being hesitant about Vagifem is because one of the listed side effects is UTI. I’m also trying to find out if I can help the VA by using alternative therapies.
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Honestly don't be afraid to take topical oestrogen, its perfectly safe. Read up on the condition, great information in the link below and alternative remedies don't work, only oestrogen.
https://bssm.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/GSM-BSSM.pdf
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I never read the leaflets in the boxes unless I suffer side effects ::)
When I've had a break in using the treatment, I do get slight UTI sensations when restarting every night but that doesn't last. Nurofen sorts that.
You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying it. There are a few products: Vagifem by pessary; Ovestin/estriol by applicator and another, name escapes me. Some of us require 1 of the stated plus 'estriol' or a YES-type product on the outer labia to keep everything moist and supple. A bit Trial and Error initially but most of us have great relief.
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Hi Sprush1, i must have missed that about utis being a side effect of vagifem, will have to have another look at the leaflet.
Though saying this, I understand vaginal estrogen helps prevent utis.
I would try it though, not everyone gets side effects.
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VioletAquarius thank you. It’s not on the leaflet in the box. I found it when I looked online about the side effects.
I need to pluck up courage and try it. My vagina is so painful when I put in YES moisturising gel. Deep breaths needed for sure.
On the subject of side effects, I’ve been taking Optibac for Women and I was surprised to learn that this causes frequent urination. I’m going to stop taking it and see if it calms my need to wee.
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I, as your GP prescribed, suggest that U get the VA treatment up there ASAP! and avoid reading GOOGLE.
It may be sore/painful especially if there is physical resistance, as the vaginal tissues may well be dry, stingy [which can happen when putting anything inside, including VA treatment initially], once the walls are plumped up it will be easier and more comfortable. What's the worst that could happen?
If U have KY Jelly then put a little inside the vaginal opening whilst laying on the bed B4 inserting the pessary. If it's very sore don't put the pessary in too deeply until symptoms ease which should be within 2-3 nights. Some ladies avoid VA treatment as they have been told that we shouldn't 'touch down there', however, sometimes it is essential to get treatment in order to avoid repeated urethra irritation.
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If you're feeling sore and tender and are worried about it hurting when using the vagifem, try popping the tablet our of the applicator and use your finger to insert. You may only be able to insert just inside initially but it will get easier the more you use.
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So did U?
Devices are OK if the vagina is well lubricated etc.. The alternative that I would suggest is not to use anything at all. :-\
Some ladies have VA so badly that surgical intervention is required. Out of interest what other prescribed medication/s would you avoid using? In 1988 I didn't want to take anti-depressant medications but without I wouldn't B sitting here.
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If the little tubes of Yes hurt and you're concerned about the vagifem applicator being painful then I can only imagine the agony that something that size would induce. :o
Please don't get hung up on possible side effects.
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It's seems a right of passage as you enter old age to throw money at anything that you hope will relieve symptoms.
I got to a very bad state of GSM symptoms and I said no when offered oestrogen, I will try the moisturisers first I said, I had a habit of refusing medications in those days and always looking for alternatives.
I soon learned the madness of my decision and never say no when offered meds to help with the ageing process, saying no to topical oestrogen was the most idiotic thing I did but the Doc knew I would be back begging for it a week later.
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CLKD I haven’t bought one.
I respect anyone who takes prescribed medication whereby the benefits far outweigh the possible side effects. I’m not averse to taking prescribed meds if deemed vital/necessary. It’s since finding out that Vagifem could potentially cause UTI’s that’s caused me to try and find a different treatment.
I nursed my late husband and not only did he have to endure the horrors of his untreatable terminal illness, he had to endure the many adverse side effects of his medication. I can’t shake that memory off unfortunately.
SundayGirl, I’ve got a high pain threshold and am prepared to try anything non medicinal that might help, at least I can say I tried.
Ayesha, I’ve got the box of Vagifem in my line of sight every time I open my bathroom cabinet. Common sense may well prevail.
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Would love to know how it all goes for you and what you eventually decide to do. Keep us updated :)
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This has been such a useful conversation for me to read today. Particularly the link that Ayesha put on.
Thank you - it has put my mind at rest. I’ll give the Estriol a try if I can get it up there!
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Devon66 - a little on the end of a finger inserted inside the opening and as the walls get plumped up you will find it easier.
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Thank you - I’ll give that a try tonight.
It feels like broken glass at the moment.
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That's a good description: for me it was like sitting on razor blades :o
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Sorry for jumping on your thread ladies but I've been taking note of this for the last few days.
Sprush1 did you try the vagifem? If so how are you going ....early days I know.
I've been suffering with the VA like you and many others on MM . I've just been to see a lovely GP and she's prescribed Vagifem. I like you am still a bit apprehensive to try it ....especially with last years scare for endometrial thickening. I was given the all clear but still worry about using anything, especially something so close to my womb.
I know how safe it is supposed to be....but how long has it been around to make these claims etc. I've looked at Ayesha's link and it's very interesting but my stupid brain is still stressing as usual.
Ladies advice please 😊
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It doesn't go near the womb, its topical only and not systemic, so safe you can now buy it over the counter.
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Northerngirl I haven’t tried the Vagifem yet.
I’ve been using vitamin e capsules ( piercing the capsule to release the liquid first) and this has taken the edge off my burning and aching.
I’ve recently watched a very interesting You Tube video about VA/GSM.
It’s by a Dr Kelly Casperson MD who is a urologist working out of Washington DC. The video was broadcast about 3 months ago so it’s up to date.
You might have to freeze frame whilst watching to read the references to treatment etc.
she regularly posts under the name of Grand Rounds in Urology.
She makes an interesting statement about not feeling it necessary to do the holding dose regime when starting vaginal oestrogen. Also she says that it is acceptable to insert the tablets/pessaries lower down the vagina which might help with any possible side effects.
Maybe someone could watch it and post their thoughts?
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Northerngirl I haven’t tried the Vagifem yet.
I’ve been using vitamin e capsules ( piercing the capsule to release the liquid first) and this has taken the edge off my burning and aching.
I’ve recently watched a very interesting You Tube video about VA/GSM.
It’s by a Dr Kelly Casperson MD who is a urologist working out of Washington DC. The video was broadcast about 3 months ago so it’s up to date.
You might have to freeze frame whilst watching to read the references to treatment etc.
she regularly posts under the name of Grand Rounds in Urology.
She makes an interesting statement about not feeling it necessary to do the holding dose regime when starting vaginal oestrogen. Also she says that it is acceptable to insert the tablets/pessaries lower down the vagina which might help with any possible side effects.
Maybe someone could watch it and post their thoughts?
Thanks Sprush1 , thanks for your reply. I've not started the vagifem either.
I will give that video a watch for sure.
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I’ve just watched the video - very interesting. Thanks Sprush1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb1tjdXLVec
I’m thinking of not doing the 4 week nightly and going straight to twice a week. It does make more sense. It evens it all out. And if there is no reason for the high dose start then I would rather not do it.
I’ve used the Estriol twice and I’m feeling very uncomfortable. I managed to get the plunger in but must have gone too far on the 2nd night because there was blood on the end of the plunger!
And this might be too much detail but today it felt like my front bits had swelled up and then dropped. I went for a walk and felt discomfort.
I woke up with a headache too - I expect to have side effects but the effect on my front bits was a shock. Is that just part of post menopause or is that over use of oestrogen, I wonder 🤔
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I’ve just checked and I’ve been diagnosed with atrophic urethritis. And thinking about it all, rereading the posts on this thread….I think I’d better continue with my 4 weekly nightly dose of oestrogen as prescribed by my GP. But I’d really welcome any thoughts on this.
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I watched the video and my thoughts are GSM (Vaginal Atrophy) is a very individualised condition, it can and does affect us all differently. When I was first diagnosed I followed the instructions in the leaflet, I did the two week loading dose of Vagifem then reduced to two a week.
After a few weeks this dose was having no effect on my symptoms, I phoned my GP and she said use the Vagifem daily and also gave me a prescription for Estriol to use on the outside, a tube will last me three months or more.
Four years on I am still on a daily dose, I have experimented with reducing but the symptoms immediately come back, it seems GSM symptoms are always on the surface ready to flare up at any time and sometimes for some of us a daily dose is the only way to keep it under control.
I was lucky that I didn’t have any side effects of the oestrogen when first started to use it but I know some do, my advice is to find your own regime, you have the ammunition to fully take control of the condition and It’s safe to use.
Listening to doctors like this in the video can make it all sound like its all a big deal, its not, the solution is simple we are not talking systemic HRT here just topical oestrogen to relieve a very nasty condition, a condition that will get worse if not treated and is for life.
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Very good point Ayesha. It could take a while to find the right solution for each individual.
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Update on my saga!
I started a UTI on Sunday ( don’t think I’ve got rid of the one since January really) and had a GP phone consult on Monday, who prescribed another 7 day course of Nitrofurantoin and this GP booked me in to see the Menopause GP at the same clinic, today. I’d dropped off a sample on Monday and an in house dipstick test showed Blood, Protein and Luecs. Sample then sent off for analysis.
At my appointment earlier the Menopause GP did an internal exam ( which was fine as I’d used plenty of Yes moisturiser). She said that my VA was fairly mild in my vagina and cervix and the vulval area was ok. I told her that I’d taken 2 of the Vagifem that was prescribed recently but had stopped as I had dreadful headaches.
She has prescribed Blissil gel. If there is no improvement after 4 months then I can try Prasterone. I asked about Ovestin/Estradiol but she said no to that.
She has also suggested I get a vibrator and recommended a company called Pelvic relief.co.uk. Her suggestion was the Kaito Sky one at a price of £49 plus delivery.
I asked her about my recent urine sample and the results back from the lab showed mixed growth and she wasn’t concerned about that as she said that’s normal.
She seems to think that my UTI’s aren’t necessarily related to VA and I could possibly need to be referred on for a Cystoscopy. I last had one of those 30 years ago when I was told that I had a birth defect in my urethra as it hadn’t grown with me.
Another interesting comment she made was that as it’s 25 years since my menopause when one introduces oestrogen to the body it can cause the side effects as the brain wants to reject it.
I’ve not looked it up but I’m guessing Blissil gel is a lower dose.
Feeling completely wrung out from it all to be honest.
I do realise though that I’ve been very fortunate to have seen this menopause GP so quickly bearing in mind she only works 2 days a week as she has her own private menopause clinic.
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Criky don't medics have such different ideas for the same condition.
We are talking about a loss of oestrogen = dryness inside and out. Devon66 - whilst this is your personal choice, twice a week may not be enough for years until your vagina is plumped up with appropriate treatment. Do B prepared if twice a week doesn't help to do a complete loading for 2-3 weeks every night. Let us know how you get on.
I don't think sprush1 that the brain rejects menopause. It's a naturally declining of natural hormone levels.
Most urine samples dip stick tests show blood, protein and luecs. It's the amount shown that is important. DH's bloody sample came back as e.Coli. Interesting that you have a birth defect, has this been followed up over the years? A cystoscopy will give you a base line from which to work.
As the video is from the US I won't be bothering to watch as we have plenty from dedicated menopause clinicians in the UK. I will add that when my symptoms niggle I use an extra treatment mid-afternoon with 2 Nurofen to ease the nip as the urine flow shuts off. I've been using treatment for many years now with good GP support and am aware when symptoms might become troublesome. Initially when restarting I did experience a repeat of symptoms the next day which went once I was back to 5-7 days reloading.
Until appropriate VA treatment is used the condition is unlikely to improve. Rarely does a woman need surgical intervention due to the vaginal lips 'glueing' together but it has been known due to dryness, pain and the reluctance to insert anything to ease symptoms.
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Thanks CLKD.
And don’t want to take over Sprush1 update - it sounds like you’ve got a lot going on.
But here’s my update:
I told GP about some side effects which I’ll list below. She said they weren’t usual side effects, but I think from reading on MM here that most are, it’s just that I seem to be experiencing a broad range of them.
GP suggested trying every three nights instead of every night. I’ve done a week of estriol every night and I’ve had two nights without and have been ok. A slight broken glass feeling last night. But much better today.
I even managed to do a bike ride today (I usually cycle 2 or 3x a week and haven’t been able to since starting the estriol).
It’s the third evening so I do the estriol cream again tonight.
Side effects affecting me in this first week:
*Headaches (first few days only)
*Stomach ache - every afternoon worse with eating. Very bloated - set off IBS.
A lot of wind. Painful when wind gathers.
Feels like stomach or womb is bottoming out. When sit down pain shoots up inside my body. This is mostly in the morning. Need hot water bottles on back and tummy whenever I can, evening and night to ease my tummy
*Labia is swollen, or plumped up might be a better word. Also discharge. Strangely, at the same time, labia feels like it’s just hanging down as if all my front bits are hanging. Walking was uncomfortable with swollen labia and discharge but it was Ok after first week to walk again.
*sometimes, for stretches during the day, I feel like need the loo all the time. Also have this strange feeling like I have a tampon stuck in - half in half out
*I’ve felt fatigue and a general feeling of not being ‘with it’, like I can’t remember the words for things
*Internal ache right side under breast and sometimes lower down by right hip.
*Jaw ache
When I first had paracetamol it did nothing but the second time it did ease aches. I’m on daily Asprin for a heart issue so am wary of taking nurofen or ibuprofen.
I’ll carry on with this every three days and see how it goes. I’m seeing the GP tomorrow (unfortunately a male GP) about getting IBS meds again.
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OUCH!
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Thanks for your thoughts CLKD.
When I had my Cystoscopy 30 years ago the surgeon said he had stretched my urethra and that there was more room to stretch it further if needs be. That’s the last time I had a UTI so for them to suddenly start again after so long is a puzzle.
I honestly can’t help thinking it’s all to do with VA.
I think what the GP meant about the brain was it would try and ‘reject’ the vaginal oestrogen as I had my menopause 25 years ago. You are right though about so many medics having such differing ideas.
Devon 66 oh my goodness what a lot of horrid side effects. It’s an absolute pain that there isn’t something gentler that could help us.
I’ve heard that if one is of a slight frame and build we are more likely to get side effects. Maybe because there isn’t much of us to absorb the meds?
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I’d like to say I’m slight frame Sprush1, but I eat a phenomenal amount, especially on cycling days. I’m in the right BMI weight bracket for my height, but not a small person.
I’m 65/6 and didn’t use any HRT through menopause. This is my first attempt at it. It could be that starting the oestrogen later in life and post menopause is a bit of a shock to the system I suppose.
Anyway, I’m going to stick with it and hope the side effects lessen with time. As Ayesha pointed out before we’re in control of what we take and when. At least with this vaginal cream I can use less and try leaving it to every three days. I like that flexibility. With trial and error it should work out ok in the end.
I hope your uti gets sorted soon Sprush1. Good luck!
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Devon66. Well it’s maybe not linked to BMI and body size then.
I think too that starting it later in life after so many years post meno ( 25 in my case) could be the reason for us getting side effects. But as you and Ayesha have said, we have control over how we administer the vaginal treatment. I do bear in mind though the thoughts of several medics ( not necessarily in the UK) who think of the terms low and slow and too much too soon ( in relation to the loading dose.) I do hope you soon settle into a routine without the side effects.
Thank you. I’m just hoping my UTI is sorted after I finish the Nitrofurantoin. What do I do if it isn’t? Any one else on here who has been in my situation?
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Just to give you a good news update. That range of horrible side effects from the estriol has gone and my symptoms of VA have eased.
I did one week of administering the estriol every night before changing to every three nights as my GP suggested when I was suffering side effects. At first this wasn’t enough to ease symptoms and didn’t ease the side effects straightaway, but it’s now week 3 and I’m feeling so glad I stuck with it.
A nurse prescribed Epimax a cleansing and moisturising cream which has helped.
By mistake I bought something called vagisil thinking it would be useful but on reading the leaflet I discovered it’s an anaesthetic! So didn’t use it. Not sure when or how that would be useful.
I can enjoy life again - I can walk without the broken glass feeling and have the energy to get back on my bike.
I’m staying on the every three nights for another week or two. It seems to work for me. I’ll try to reduce to the maintenance dose of twice a week but not yet.
Thanks for all your support. It really helped me get through those very hard days.
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Devon66 - I wouldn't drop down any more if your regime is working. Why risk upsetting the fragile area ......... we can use VA treatments safely every night if necessary.
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Glad you're feeling better Devon66 :)
By all means try to reduce if you want to but don't worry if symptoms return, just increase your dosage again. It's trial and error initially to get to the correct level and frequency for you. :)
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I can enjoy life again - I can walk without the broken glass feeling and have the energy to get back on my bike.
Have you got an adapted saddle for your bike one that keeps the vulva area clear ?
Bike riding is not the best thing to do with VA.
I had to give my bike up in the end. I couldn’t get on with the Spongey Wonder saddle I bought.
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Sorry for delay in replying. I didn’t realised had replies.
I thought I was going to have to give up cycling Minusminnie. I’ve got a saddle with a long cut out and I wear Le Col cycling shorts or leggings because they have a padded bit with a deep channel that runs through the middle, so I can sit forward with space for my bits. The saddle I’ve got has been discontinued which is a shame. I’ve tried lots of others and none work for me. I can’t even get hold of it on second hand sites. I do much shorter rides now, but I am aware that my cycling years are numbered.
I think I’ll stick to every three days then CKLD and SundayGirl.
Still feeling good.
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Sorry I got your name wrong CLKD!
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Blame peri - I do - we have a doing stupid things thread somewhere :D