Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: CLKD on September 27, 2024, 09:00:03 AM
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I know that we have lots of threads on these but I don't understand why VA irritates the bladder :-\. That may even be 'how' VA affects us. Why low oestrogen = increased urination etc..
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Me neither but it sure does. Looking back I must have started with menopausal symptoms in my late 30's in that I started to need to pee much more frequently and got shooting pains up my urethra). Since being on testosterone for 3 months now, those issues are easing for the first time. I wonder if that means my testosterone levels were falling at that age?
The one thing I wish is that when you mention it to a GP they didn't just say it's normal as you age. Most elderly women I know don't have those symptoms but rather men.
So CLKD, I'd be interested to know why, too.
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I thought that I was being thick. ::)
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Oestrogen receptors are situated around the whole area, vagina, urethra, bladder trigone and pelvic floor, therefore a lack of oestrogen could have consequences with conditions affecting the bladder.
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tnx.
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I assumed it's because the urethra and bladder also have atrophy and anything that irritates them will cause burning and freqency. It's similar to having cystitis, the irritation and inflammation cause you to need pee more often.
Last year when i was suffering from recurrent thrush it affected my bladder and caused cramps and spasms.
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I've never had problems with the urethra - fortunately. It's the bladder that becomes irritated with a feeling of fullness below the belly button = warning signs. This time it was different:
Yesterday: that griping pain (on Monday and Tuesday) that I had across my belly turns out to be atrophy - after the intermittent griping which felt as though I had lifted something heavy; my bowels became 'iffy' ........ followed by today VA symptoms. Had a bath and popped some estriol up there, will do another treatment later. Now to take some Nurofen.
Treatment and Nurofen at 11.30 p.m., more treatment this morning. Much more comfortable now.
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Probably a VA flare up then, perhaps do a reload and take more regularly, every day.
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I think it's just a case that lack of oestrogen affects the whole area but sometimes women only think of VA as being dryness/soreness and don't associate it with bladder frequency, burning etc. Perhaps it should really be called VVA (vulval and vaginal)?
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Its strange how it effects us all in different ways. I never felt any dryness only intense burning and the constant need to pee, which in hindsight was because I was dry I suppose.
I never associated it with being anything to do with lack of oestrogen but it appears to be the cause of all sorts of nasty symptoms in that area. Its a tongue twister of a name to describe all the conditions due to the lack of oestrogen, Genitourinary Syndrome of the Menopause (GSM) and it can all be a minefield.
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My GP often asked whether I was 'dry' and although we've used KY Jelly for years++, it wasn't dryness as I expected it to be. :-\. The GP prescribed atrophy treatment after I had several urine 'infections' treated with ABs that probably were never necessary.
The area feels irritable internally this afternoon despite Nurofen earlier. Around the 'G" spot area and yep, we know where mine is ;)
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I wonder if that is still happening, mature women presenting with symptoms of a bladder infection when none have ever been present before and the first thoughts are antibiotics. I've never forgotten the suffering whilst waiting for three lots of antibiotics to work, three months before I was finally told you need oestrogen down there. Four years on I hope things have changed.
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I wonder if that is still happening, mature women presenting with symptoms of a bladder infection when none have ever been present before and the first thoughts are antibiotics.
Unfortunately it is still happening. It took 12 agonising years for my VA to be diagnosed and that was by ME from reading this forum.
Prior to gaining the info on here I was asking the gynae I was seeing if my pain/bladder probs etc could be menopausal and she kept saying no!!
So I had repeated antibiotics, painful nerve block injections, minor surgery to my viginal area to remove atrophied continuously sore and bleeding tissue, all which did nothing yo help my problems and she finally discharged me and sent me back to my GP who knew even less. Would love to sit down with her and explain that 6 years of seeing her with no successful treatment could have been avoided if she'd simply considered my questions.
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Around the 'G" spot area and yep, we know where mine is ;)
Is it in the same place as everyone else's? 😁
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Mrs Mitch - that's awful. Which is why 'Me and My Menopausal Vagina' should be essential reading for all medics prior to qualifying!
Taz2 - it's not something I discuss in general :D and there are some medics who still don't recognise the fact >:( as apparently, it can't be seen on Post Mortem :-\. :o
What was the question ?
I think that 4 me when problem begins and my bowels become 'iffy', frequency is made worse due to pressure because my bowels hasn't emptied.
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MrsMitch, that's a true horror story, I also learned everything I knew about the condition from here, it gave me the courage to phone the surgery to ask for Ovestin when Vagifem was not enough on its own to ease symptoms.
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Yes, CLKD, I read it and have been passing it around since, particularly to my step daughters who although only in their late 30's, still need the info. They were horrified about not only the condition but also the lack of knowledge in the medical profession.
Interesting about your bowels. I agree about possibly being pressure exacerbating bladder urges because when I took co-codamol for my hip pain, that made me constipated and I did feel the need to pee much more. Hadn't connected the 2 until I read what you said.
I do wish that sometimes the 'professionals' would occasionally listen to their patients more. I know they dislike it if we say 'well I've looked online and I think I might have...."
but maybe, just maybe, sometimes we're right.
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Ayesha how many more times will we read on here posts from women who can't get a correct diagnosis or if they do, like me, can't get prescribed high enough doses. I'm daily estradiol and I'd say my VA is 60% better. Not as good as my meno specialist says it can be, but ant amount of better is a step in the right direction!
It's still surprising though considering all the publicity recently about Menopause.
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Bowels are slower this last 36 hours >:( = VA symptoms niggling. :-\
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CLKD, I get the iffy bowel thing too. When I’m having flare with bladder pressure my abdomen is visibly distended, and this can happen quite rapidly. I kind of moves about so I think it’s an inflammatory reaction that gets the bowels and it all just builds up more pressure. I’m with you right now, having an unexplained flare that’s been going on for 8 days now.
I’m at a bit of loss what to do to be honest, I’m already like a pharmaceutical factory with all the HRT I take - 100mg Estradot, cyclical utrogestan, testosterone, Intrarosa. The only thing I’m wondering is whether I’ve stopped absorbing the oestrogen from my patch so well because my skin has got a bit more oily on the testosterone…? So far very dazed and confused looks from GPs with offers of antibiotics.
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Getting back to the original question of why does VA affect the bladder, I suppose there is a clue in the name Genitourinary symptoms of menopause or GSM as VA is now called. I was fortunate that my GP immediately twigged that my urinary symptoms were caused by lack of oestrogen and prescribed vagifem. He was in his sixties too- why are some GPs so informed and others so ignorant!!!!
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sfreesto - R U using appropriate vaginal treatment to ease atrophy sympomts? My regime of one in the morning and another in bed at night has worked thus far, plus nurofen twice a day .
I still don't understand the mechanics though - it may be lack of oestrogen but why does it affect the bladder :-\. I probably need a diagram ::)
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From what I know the bladder and urethra are covered in both oestrogen and testosterone receptors, so makes sense that the urinary tract is impacted.
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I wonder whether, a post mortem, those receptors are evident. Still need a map ::)
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The frequent urination is getting me down, I have been going about every two hours, I know that going 6-10 times a day is normal, but I am used to only going 2 to 3 times a day, I know I know, I don't drink a lot of water, but for the last two days I have been drinking 1.5 liters of water each day and I feel like I have been peeing a lot, I don't wake up in the middle of the night to go, my anxiety is high thinking it's something else, and I keep telling myself this is normal and it's normal to go a lot when going through menopause. Ladies how often do you go?
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Are you using topical oestrogen and if so, how often?
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No logic in anxiety: however - U have upped the amount of liquid intake without considering where the body sources water in general, i.e. food stuffs. = going to the loo a lot more.
The 1st P of the day will be darker and possibly smelly. As the body hydrates during the day urine will become lighter in colour - straw coloured is recommended. Any paler and we are drinking too much.
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@Ayesha no I am not using any creams or anything. CLKD thank you for your reply, you are correct, anxiety can take over, I do have a bit of discomfort down below and am suspecting a mild UTI, though am not 100 percent sure. Yes my P was very light almost clear.
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Too hydrated. Get some VA treatment ASAP pkstracy! VA mimics repeated urine infection-type sympt0ms really, really well!
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If there is nothing else going on with your bladder like an infection for instance, then topical oestrogen will relieve symptoms massively.
Time to have a word with your GP about your symptoms and in the meantime research here all about vaginal atrophy (GSM).
None of us are medics here (as far as I know) and its best to rule things out through the proper channels, we can only advise on our own experiences but most of us here are more qualified than medics to give advice on the dreaded vaginal atrophy.
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My experience as comparison for this thread.. my normal dose of Vagirux is 2/3 time a week. I’m learning fast!
I’ve just been through really bad 4 day flare up mostly bladder and urethra pain, shocking burn, urge and excruciating eye watering pain on peeing.. This particular episode was so bad I could only shuffle to bathroom pain was so bad yesterday, bladder spasms, cramping etc. tried ice packs, dosed up on Nurofen nothing seemed to even touch the problem.
Did a home UTI Sure Sign dip test available in pharmacy £4.99…, and despite already having 3 Vagirux this week last one one the day before yesterday.. I had another one. Within an hour the bladder pain subsided, hot water bottle eased the bladder muscles and today I feel much better.
Moral of the story… a flare up is absolutely unbearable as anyone who has had them will know…enough to drive anyone to despair.. whatever the experts say about dosage, and my own nervousness about overdoing it.. the only thing that makes a difference is the Vagirux, Vagifem or whatever it’s labelled. Even when the pain seems to be bladder UTI related.
Hope everyone finds some strength to deal with this pernicious condition, and better days..
VVV x
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MayB U need to use every night routinely and 4get what the leaflet in the box or GPs suggest?
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You might be right CLKD, I just wonder how that increases the dependency and then makes it worse when you drop it down. But when you need it you definitely have to use it more.. I agree.
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Vavavoom: It's not about dependancy as in drug use.
As oestrogen dries out the body - it is also the elasticity - the vagina/vulva may require a lot of input to plump up the walls of the vagina. Pretty much like using a good quality hand or body cream when necessary. The longer the vagina has suffered the longer it may take to plump up those tissues so giving 'her' what 'she' requires, i.e. TLC with VA treatment, really soothes any symptoms.
Once my vagina was comfy I was able to use as necessary rather than every night. I now recognise niggles so immediately begin nightly applications.
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I don't relate to it being a dependency issue, at least I hope it isn't. Four years on and I still need daily treatment. Flare ups can easily happen depending on what's going on with you health wise, anything seems to bring them on and for me I am blaming my bad flare up to the Covid jab I had two weeks ago, it seems to have dried up my whole body.
I remember this happening last year and I said I would not have another jab but two family members went down with Covid recently and they said it was brutal, so I relented and had it done.
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It was due to anxiety and then I just started my period.
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Covid-19 is known to affect hormones.
Tnx pkstracy.
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Does anyone use oxybutinin or solifencin ( I think it’s called)? They are meant to calm the bladder? So far, they’ve just given me a dry mouth! :-\
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Anyone used imvaggis?
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Yes, I used Imvaggis for about 7 months and was good, and then had an almighty 3 month long VA flare up and am now on Intrarosa, which I’ve been on for 10 months now. I had a recent flare up (UTI and extended bladder sensitivity, then microbiome shot because of antibiotics) but this was about two weeks long. I am peri so my hormones are all over the place, which can’t help the situation. It’s hard to blame any one thing for flare ups!
Imvaggis and Intrarosa are both waxy pessaries that melt and I’ve found soothing. I understand Imvaggis is a weaker dose than Vagifem or Ovestin. Intrarosa is DHEA so different.
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I've been on Ovestin daily for 2 months now. I also use Emerita estrogen and progesterone topical creams (on the arms and legs). I have had big improvements with my VA which mimicked UTI for many months. But I still have issues I have to keep my eye on, and I have a strict routine now to keep things comfortable. Only one coffee per day (which doesn't affect it at all, thank goodness). Dilations before shower every day to keep the vaginal canal pliable and to remove dead cells which would otherwise just sit there. That is until I can resume intercourse with my husband! Things are still a little iffy and I want to make sure the skin is plumped sufficiently before we attempt it. Also, I microbiome probiotic specifically for the reproductive system.
But every day is different which is why I have been keeping a diary for 3 months now. I believe my hormones are still fluctuating because I have worse symptoms for 7-10 days each month at the same time. Those days can have aches like period pain and more often needing to pee. I also find that needing to do a number 2 can affect my bladder - making me need to go. If I find that I need to pee soon after urinating, sure enough the urge to do number 2 follows soon after and then I have relief. Lovely I know but I really believe it's all tied in together.
As for bladder needing estrogen - it seems the neck of the bladder shortens and dries without estrogen (or so the gyno says). In turn that produces UTI symptoms which affect some but not all.
I was fortunate enough to find another woman in my workplace with the same issue, so we have been swapping notes and helping each other. We are both on the same treatment, so far with success.
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Tnx Garnet161 - when my bowel action is slow the need to pee is constant ::)
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Be wary of medications too as they can also have an affect on VA by drying out the body which will bring on flare ups.
I have been symptom free for three years, it took about a year to get to that stage in this horrific journey. I have had flare ups now and again and they have always been mild but not this time, I feel like I have gone right back to the beginning with the worst of the symptoms returning.
I thought perhaps the Estriol cream had degraded during the summer as one tube will last me three months but I also use Vagifem every day and that is more tolerant of high temps. I am putting this bad flare up solely and squarely on having the Covid vaccine three weeks ago, I remember a week after having the jab saying to my husband that my body seems to be very dry not thinking then what was ahead for me.
A week of agony seems to be settling down now with doubling up on treatment but I am still waiting to be symptom free like I was before having the vaccine.
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:bighug: covid is known to have altered hormones.
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Garnet161, where do you get the Emerita cream from? Is it like the Wellsprings and Biovea products?
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I get the Emerita creams from iHerb.com.
It's the BiEstro (combo Estriol and Estradiol) and ProGest.
I recently had the ultrasound to check uterine thickness - some docs have said the progesterone as a cream will not be sufficient but the thickness was fine. So I will continue.
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Just to add another note in case it helps anyone, I'm 5 months into testosterone now (testogel) and it really helps my bladder. If I do wake at night I don't have to get up to pee and I no longer have the constant urge to pee when I know I don't need to.
I was speaking to a lady the other day whose sister has had years of bladder problems ie sensitivity, pain, needing to pee frequently and once any serious illness was ruled out, she was prescribed testosterone. She is in her 80's and not on HRT. Apparently now she's been 12 months on it she rarely has any problems and says she has a 'normal' bladder.
Hope that may help some of you.
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Thanks, MrsMitch. Thinking of asking my GP for Testogel due to lots of good reports about it reducing bladder issues. Did you have any side effects from it?
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Well Garnet, not anything that made me want to stop using it. Spotty at the end of month one but by the end of month two, that cleared up. Although I apply it to the inside of my elbow the tops of my thighs seem hairier but I'm just about to buy an eplitator
Apart from that, it's all positive.