Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Charleyfarley on January 05, 2024, 05:58:57 PM
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Hi ladies…aaaah I needed a friend and I figured the only people that might understand may be you lovely bunch….
The Sequi patches are now in the bin and I’m more anxious than ever….
This week my health anxiety is out of control again. The reason I embarked on HRT in the first place was to see if the health anxiety might have been worse because of peri…I’m not sure
I was on a period at the weekend and on my estrogen Fortnite. Quite a light period and had a lovely NYE, followed by sex wirh my partner as period was so light. I drove home on NYD (3hr drive) and felt a flood..car seat ruined and the clots just kept coming. For the next 24hrs it was relentless, 2 super tampons an hr. I removed one of them and after it came out it was followed by what I can only describe as a huge plate of bloody jelly. My boobs were huge and sore. All in all it was flooded for 48hrs. I removed my patch and called the doctors. No meno specialist so went to see the nurse. I explained I was in HRT and the bleed. She asked if I could have been pregnant. Blindsided me. I’m nearly 46 and had to have IVF to have my daughter at 40. The nurse said it sounded very much like a miscarriage. She told me to go away and do a test. I asked if it was negative would she look at anything else more sinister for this kind of bleed. She said not if it was a one off which it was. I did a test and it was negative.
I just wanted to talk to her or ANYONE qualified about how it could be estrogen dominance maybe? Or the HRT? Or basically any kind of possibility’s. I was disappointed that as a peri 46 yr old woman the first presumption was that I was pregnant 🤯🤯 I understand someone with health anxiety is every GP/Nurse nitemare but she just wasn’t interested. I asked if it was possible that my breasts would be this big and sore if it the bleed was connected to any kind of sinister reason and she said no. But then I read that sometimes cancer in the downstairs area can cause breast pain.
The nurse has left it that I just see how I get on and any more big bleeds I am to go back.
I guess what I’m asking is, for a bleed where so much jelly/tissue just literally fell out of me together with the sore breasts, could this be estrogen dominance? I took the patch off on Tuesday, the bleed stopped almost straight away and my boobs are starting to calm down but still some twinges.
I’m staying away from any estrogen at the moment because it’s scared the life out of me.
I’m tearful and hyper vigilant at any feeling in either boob.
The other possibility is a fibroid but historically I’ve never had the sore boobs with a fibroid.
So sorry for the length of this 😢
I’m hoping to save some money and get some therapy for the health anxiety.
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Unless you get anything else happening now, I'd assume it was just a reaction to the HRT.
The Sequi patches you are on, only come in 50mcg of estrogen. Really you could ask for a separate estrogen patch and utrogestan (progesterone) - which is better for your health anyway, because the progesterone is body identical. Unlike the synthetic progestin in the combined patches.
If you have a separate estrogen patch, you can start with 25 or even cut that in half and begin with 12.5. Women who are sensitive to estrogen do best with beginning on a low dose and gradually increasing.
I wouldn't avoid estrogen and HRT forevermore because the impact of zero estrogen and menopause on health is to increase the risk of many diseases....
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It's common in peri to have massive peaks and troughs of your own hormones so perhaps it's combination of that and hrt. Starting on 25 might be a good move.
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Thank you so much ladies 🙏
Would you be alarmed by any breast swelling/twinges whilst my body settles from whatever happened? Xx
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When my estrogen surges I get tender breasts, it all sounds very hormonal to me as does your bleed. I wonder also if the clots / jelly coming out was as a result of the blood starting to coagulation but being held back by the tampons. Also flooding is normal in peri too.
I would agree with others it is just a reaction to the hrt / your own hormones.
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Aaah Penguin you have no idea how much that helps thank u 🙏 my shoulders literally just relaxed ten fold 🤦♀️ thank you xx
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just realised my boobs have been tender for nearly a month…I’m wondering if estrogen surges can last that long on sequi 😬😭
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As suggested in your other thread, this is probably a reaction to the HRT.
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Unless you get anything else happening now, I'd assume it was just a reaction to the HRT.
The Sequi patches you are on, only come in 50mcg of estrogen. Really you could ask for a separate estrogen patch and utrogestan (progesterone) - which is better for your health anyway, because the progesterone is body identical. Unlike the synthetic progestin in the combined patches.
If you have a separate estrogen patch, you can start with 25 or even cut that in half and begin with 12.5. Women who are sensitive to estrogen do best with beginning on a low dose and gradually increasing.
I wouldn't avoid estrogen and HRT forevermore because the impact of zero estrogen and menopause on health is to increase the risk of many diseases....
Joziel, I get what you are saying re: the importance of oestrogen for women and the role it can play during menopause to replace lost hormones. But, I do find it upsetting, when you say that the impact of zero oestrogen during menopause, can increase the risk of many other diseases.
I am never to have oestrogen again, due to secondary breast cancer. My body is needing it desperately and I’m to find a way through without it. The thought of developing any further diseases, is frankly daunting!
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Apologies for duplicating the post…I think because I had followed up with the appt at the docs and still had the breast tenderness I was starting to panic…apologies again x
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Turning that around: added oestrogen can protect bones and heart.
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Sending virtual hugs your way charleyfarley you need them right now :hug:
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Sending virtual hugs your way charleyfarley you need them right now :hug:
Thank you so kind 🙏 I’m gonna take it, I’m a blubbering wreck 🤦♀️♥️
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"Joziel, I get what you are saying re: the importance of oestrogen for women and the role it can play during menopause to replace lost hormones. But, I do find it upsetting, when you say that the impact of zero oestrogen during menopause, can increase the risk of many other diseases."
Nas, I'm really sorry that you can't have estrogen. I would be devastated if that were the case myself (and might even be one of the few women who insist on taking it anyway, since it's about an informed choice).
But - just because it's hard to hear something, doesn't mean it shouldn't be said. That would be taking science backwards somewhat. I don't write here only for you, but for the other women reading, many of which can take HRT but still don't. Only about 20% of women who could be taking HRT are taking it, because they are unreasonably afraid of it due to outdated studies like the WHI. For this reason, it's important to state over and over the benefits of HRT on health and the risks of *not* taking it.
I feel truly devastated for the minority of women who can't take it, but what would they have us do? Not talk about the benefits of HRT, because they don't like to hear that - and then many more women who could take it, don't - and suffer? I'll always promote the truth and where the science is - but I'm sorry that you can't take it.
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Joziel, I fully appreciate that you are not writing purely for my benefit, as this is a public forum.
After menopause, when oestrogen is no longer made in the ovaries, I found out that it can instead, be made in the fatty tissues of the body (when enzymes change other hormones into oestrogen). Obviously the amount of oestrogen produced is far less than pre meno, but it seems that women are left with a tiny bit of oestrogen at least, rather than zero.
Maybe state which "diseases" women may be prone to developing, without HRT? That might encourage more women to instigate a conversation with their GP, re: the benefits of HRT, when requesting a prescription?
I don't think that it is just outdated reports which put women off taking HRT either. We know it can be a challenge to strike the right HRT balance; bleeding and a thickened womb lining for example, can also be alarming and put women off.
it's important to state over and over the benefits of HRT on health and the risks of *not* taking it.
Please state those risks. Yes there are great benefits to taking HRT, but we must also remember, that taking a holistic approach to menopause, is not a bad thing either. For many it is just another useful tool in the box, (and often a very important one).
I would be devastated if that were the case myself (and might even be one of the few women who insist on taking it anyway, since it's about an informed choice).
It is indeed an informed choice, but depending on the reason you couldn't take HRT, you would have to find someone to prescribe it to you. You could not "insist" that you took it.
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Joziel, I fully appreciate that you are not writing purely for my benefit, as this is a public forum.
After menopause, when oestrogen is no longer made in the ovaries, I found out that it can instead, be made in the fatty tissues of the body (when enzymes change other hormones into oestrogen). Obviously the amount of oestrogen produced is far less than pre meno, but it seems that women are left with a tiny bit of oestrogen at least, rather than zero.
Maybe state which "diseases" women may be prone to developing, without HRT? That might encourage more women to instigate a conversation with their GP, re: the benefits of HRT, when requesting a prescription?
I don't think that it is just outdated reports which put women off taking HRT either. We know it can be a challenge to strike the right HRT balance; bleeding and a thickened womb lining for example, can also be alarming and put women off.
it's important to state over and over the benefits of HRT on health and the risks of *not* taking it.
Please state those risks. Yes there are great benefits to taking HRT, but we must also remember, that taking a holistic approach to menopause, is not a bad thing either. For many it is just another useful tool in the box, (and often a very important one).
I would be devastated if that were the case myself (and might even be one of the few women who insist on taking it anyway, since it's about an informed choice).
It is indeed an informed choice, but depending on the reason you couldn't take HRT, you would have to find someone to prescribe it to you. You could not "insist" that you took it.
Well said.
GP took me off HRT, consultant pharmacologist agreed with this action.
@ CharleyFarley, I had some horrendous bleeds when peri, that made me feel really panicky. If at all possible try and keep a diary of your symptoms. It used to help me feel more confident when I went to the doctor's if I could refer to evidence during my conversations with them - made my health anxiety a bit better because I want so adrift in what I wanted to say and which questions I needed to ask.
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Joziel, I fully appreciate that you are not writing purely for my benefit, as this is a public forum.
After menopause, when oestrogen is no longer made in the ovaries, I found out that it can instead, be made in the fatty tissues of the body (when enzymes change other hormones into oestrogen). Obviously the amount of oestrogen produced is far less than pre meno, but it seems that women are left with a tiny bit of oestrogen at least, rather than zero.
Maybe state which "diseases" women may be prone to developing, without HRT? That might encourage more women to instigate a conversation with their GP, re: the benefits of HRT, when requesting a prescription?
I don't think that it is just outdated reports which put women off taking HRT either. We know it can be a challenge to strike the right HRT balance; bleeding and a thickened womb lining for example, can also be alarming and put women off.
it's important to state over and over the benefits of HRT on health and the risks of *not* taking it.
Please state those risks. Yes there are great benefits to taking HRT, but we must also remember, that taking a holistic approach to menopause, is not a bad thing either. For many it is just another useful tool in the box, (and often a very important one).
I would be devastated if that were the case myself (and might even be one of the few women who insist on taking it anyway, since it's about an informed choice).
It is indeed an informed choice, but depending on the reason you couldn't take HRT, you would have to find someone to prescribe it to you. You could not "insist" that you took it.
Totally agree with everything you've said Nas. Plus, I recalled my doctor telling me that a small amount of estrogen is still produced elsewhere, so reading this made me look into it. Found this within a minute online!
'In nonreproductive women, such as young females before puberty or women after menopause, extragonadal sites are the main sources of estrogens, including kidney, adipose tissue, skin, and brain.'
Joziel, scaring people into taking hrt is as bad (particularly for those who have serious medical conditions to contend with anyway) as scaring them into not taking it. There are pros and cons to everything, and also other ways you can protect your heart, bones etc than purely hrt as the only solution. The risks are relative to each woman's personal circumstances.
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Thank you so much ladies, I’m going to try and stay away from HRT until my bodies settled.
The bleed, the breast issues, they all culminated into a health anxiety meltdown…so much so that I was hoping I had actually had a miscarriage rather than something else 🤯
My mum was horrified when I started taking HRT, her mum and sister have history of breast cancer & she didn’t agree when the GP told me that I was a step removed from that so not to worry.
When this happened with the bleed etc she said that my body is so sensitive to estrogen that I was one of the few cases that should have been almost grateful for the menopause and peri. I have suffered with PMDD since teens and she said although I was in the minority, I was someone that would benefit from the death of the hormones 🤷♀️🫣 she didn’t understand why I would want to start pumping them back into my body when they had caused so much hell…
I’m kind of on that bus now and whilst I think HRT is a god send it was either too soon on my journey to take, ie maybe caused far too much estrogen dominance or it just isn’t for my body.
I’m going to start researching the withdrawal effects though because I’m feeling a little bit spaced out and anxious since removing it xxx
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Charleyfarley, there's nothing wrong with taking a break, taking progesterone only for a while first (utrogestan) or waiting if you think it's too early for you - but don't decide in a snap decision never to take it again, is the gist of what I'm saying.
Nas, I'm sorry but I don't need to repeatedly state every thing, every single time I write something to someone - just because you think I should. A quick google of anything I'm saying would bring up research studies and it kinda clogs up a post to state details every single time.
I'm fed up of hearing, on social media and now it seems on here as well - from women who can't take HRT, who deal with this by dissing HRT, dismissing the health benefits and insisting that you can be just as healthy without it. The science on all this is very clear now. It's really poor logic, to get out of cognitive dissonance by telling yourself "I can't take HRT, so I must find reasons to make that okay in my mind by not wanting to take it anyway".
I'm really sorry for the women who can't take it - and I mean that - I would be devastated. But to these women who can't take it, I'd say: Please don't get out of that difficult situation by promoting HRT as dangerous, ineffective or not necessary. Just because you can't take it, doesn't mean you should become anti-HRT (in even a slight way) as a response. Deal with the cognitive dissonance instead of causing harm to your sisters worldwide by causing them to make choices which are not in their best interests, just to help you feel less conflicted. Of course there are many other things you can turn to, to try to help menopause symptoms - but to promote them to people who *can* take HRT and to diss HRT just because you can't take it, is a fallacy which does great harm to others.
After menopause, when oestrogen is no longer made in the ovaries, I found out that it can instead, be made in the fatty tissues of the body (when enzymes change other hormones into oestrogen). Obviously the amount of oestrogen produced is far less than pre meno, but it seems that women are left with a tiny bit of oestrogen at least, rather than zero.
Actually, that type of estrogen is called estrone. It's weak, it's inflammatory and it doesn't have the same health benefits as the estradiol which your ovaries make and which is in HRT.
Maybe state which "diseases" women may be prone to developing, without HRT?
I've stated them many times, I'm sorry I forgot to repeat them in this one thread. Without taking HRT you're at increased risk of heart disease, dementia, osteoporosis and sarcopenia.
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Josie you do post some in-depth and helpful information on this forum and encourage others to also do their research with regards to what medications may be suitable for their needs.
But I do take issue with you appearing to suggest some women who have had to cease hrt to it nagging a conflict with serious health issues are in effect 'dissing' hrt. I really can't see it like that. Those that genuinely can no longer take it simply have no option but to look for other ways to alleviate hormonal symptoms, or alternatives ways to maintain the other benefits hrt provides. Put simply, I don't see these women as totally dissing hrt - it's impossible for them to take it into their bodies. It's hardly a fault of theirs is it?
In some ways you reply may actually scare those who should not take hrt into taking it even if it IS detrimental to their overall health. Isn't that as bad as your inferring some women in here are supposedly dissing hrt?
We all need to take an informed choice for our bodies and minds. Hrt, and the discussions of hrt cannot just be a generalisation - individuals have very individual health issues. It's a fact, some will not take hrt ( very much their valued choice) and those who cannot take hrt.
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Ummm....
But I do take issue with you appearing to suggest some women who have had to cease hrt to it nagging a conflict with serious health issues are in effect 'dissing' hrt.
Please show me where I've said that? I'm sorry, I think you've misinterpreted what's going on here. As it seems a few others have as well.
I am talking about this statement from Nas:
joziel I do find it upsetting, when you say that the impact of zero oestrogen during menopause, can increase the risk of many other diseases.
This is asking me not to share the truth about HRT (that not taking it increases the risk of many diseases) just because Nas finds it 'upsetting' to hear this.
That, or she just felt like telling me it was upsetting - for what reason, I'm not sure.
Truth is sometimes upsetting. Science is sometimes upsetting. The outcomes of studies are not what 'we' always want them to be. Reality sucks sometimes. None of this changes reality. Facts are facts. Do we not share the facts, because some people find them 'upsetting'? (When those people finding them 'upsetting' were not the OP with the situation in the first place, but just read someone else's thread?)
This was originally a post where someone who *could* take HRT was considering stopping it. I pointed out the benefits of it and the risks of not taking it. Somehow, that information was 'upsetting' and implicitly therefore should not be shared?
I will continue to point out the benefits of HRT to those women who are able to take it. I will continue to point out the risks of *not* taking it, to those women who are able to take it.
If facts are 'upsetting' for some people, I'm really and truly sorry about that - it's not my intention to 'upset' anyone, that's not why I am sharing information. I'm sharing it to help the women who are able to take it but are having difficulties and considering stopping. Anyone ''upset' by facts should maybe just scroll on by....
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Hi Joziel,
Hands up the word nagging in my post was an odd typo ( I have some kind of auto correct set up and she to my techy ineptitude haven't turned it off).
Again, tech stupidity means I cannot paste in the part of your post which I am most concerned about, so I quote
" women who can't take HRT, who deal with this by dissing HRT and dismissing the health benefits and insisting that you can be just as healthy without it"
Did I interpret this wrong then? If so I apologise. But I read that whilst thinking of those who simply cannot take HRT due to it being potentially dangerous to existing health conditions, and that they are not dismissing HRT for every suitable individual.
No, I am fortunate that I can take hrt and benefit greatly now I have the correct regime for my bodies current needs. Yes I have read someone else's thread who was on hrt and now has had to stop for serious heath reasons and I will continue to support that person and others if I can.
I think using the word ' upsetting ' when speaking of those who cannot take hrt could be trivializing the impact of not being able to take hrt even if they did once or would like to be able to use it.
I agree, you, and anyone else should write posts, and respond to posts in the best way they see best, and I repeat, you do share some serious information about the many benefits of hrt.... It's just some cannot take it even hrt they want to. And they may find your post upsetting and also, like any of us have the right to respond to your post, or any others posts accordingly.
I genuinely believe that you don't wish to upset those women who want hrt but cannot have it. You are wanting to give those who are considering stopping hrt food for thought. Yes science can be upsetting but so can life and working with menopause symptoms be upsetting too.
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For women who are contraindicated for HRT there is a new, non hormonal drug but I'm sorry, I can't remember the name but I did post an article about it from the Guardian.
My personal view is if you can take HRT then do it. There are so many obvious benefits that far outweigh the risks. Why suffer years of miserable and debilitating symptoms when you don't need to? It seems pretty pointless to me.
I'm afraid a lot of women are terrified of the menopause and become menopause deniers - when people find themselves in a situation they can't change, they often pretend to either be happy with it or pretend it doesn't exist.
My younger sister will not even discuss the menopause and now I can see she is slowly turning into my mother and has scooped up all the menopause symptoms she had - she was also a menopause denier. Then there is my friend in Australia who is plagued with severe brain fog, life ruining insomnia (she now has to sleep in a separate bedroom to her partner). She asked me to buy her some Oestrogel (she's had a hysterectomy) but then refuses to use it without giving a reason. I despair.
So if you can take HRT, it's a no brainer but if you are unable to, there is help elsewhere with other drugs.
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All I am saying on the matter joziel, is that as this is a public forum, you might want to think about your choice of words.
As one who is newly diagnosed with a disease which means my use of HRT had to come to an abrupt end, then yes, I do find you saying that zero oestrogen, can lend itself to other diseases, daunting.
I gained many benefits from HRT and even though I could never get the dose quite right, I continued for all the reasons you have stated. So with all due respect, I was not “ dissing” HRT at all. If I could use it, I would.
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I think we have to accept that one woman’s elixir is another woman’s poison.
Like the combined pill, HRT protects from some diseases and can raise the risk of others. If you feel great on it then that could be a clue that it’s what your body needs, conversely if you feel bad on it then it could be causing you hidden issues.
I think we need to start being more intuitive with food and medicines and if it doesn’t feel right, then it probably isn’t.
As some of you have alluded to, we subconsciously want others to be making the same choices as ourselves to provide us with comfort that we are making the right choice. Also, when you have been in the same position as another poster but found a way through, you want to share that to help them.
As well meaning as the advice always is, sadly, there have been some members of this forum who have struggled with HRT and been encouraged quite vigorously to increase their doses or go against their doctor’s advice, and ended up with oestrogen driven illnesses, which may or may not have happened without the HRT, but will no doubt leave them wondering. On a longer term basis, some could be encouraged to stop their HRT and end up with an illness the HRT could have protected them from. It’s all unknown unknowns in the end.
Ultimately, it’s our own choice to take it or not, but rather than debating the pros and cons of HRT, which can be completely different from one person to the next, perhaps it’s safer to share our own experiences and give practical advice and statistics but only ever from our own perspective.
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Thank you so much ladies, I’m going to try and stay away from HRT until my bodies settled.
The bleed, the breast issues, they all culminated into a health anxiety meltdown…so much so that I was hoping I had actually had a miscarriage rather than something else 🤯
My mum was horrified when I started taking HRT, her mum and sister have history of breast cancer & she didn’t agree when the GP told me that I was a step removed from that so not to worry.
When this happened with the bleed etc she said that my body is so sensitive to estrogen that I was one of the few cases that should have been almost grateful for the menopause and peri. I have suffered with PMDD since teens and she said although I was in the minority, I was someone that would benefit from the death of the hormones 🤷♀️🫣 she didn’t understand why I would want to start pumping them back into my body when they had caused so much hell…
I’m kind of on that bus now and whilst I think HRT is a god send it was either too soon on my journey to take, ie maybe caused far too much estrogen dominance or it just isn’t for my body.
I’m going to start researching the withdrawal effects though because I’m feeling a little bit spaced out and anxious since removing it xxx
Hi
I had to go cold turkey. It was a bit of a rough ride, but I just tried to be kind to myself, eat well, lots of walks, stay hydrated, no vino, couple of valium, herbal sleepy tea.
I was interested in what you said about PMDD. I also had that and hormonal effect always seemed to magnify everything.
I think, you know, I had to listen to my own body and give myself that space to be a bit messed up. In terms of the health anxiety, is it worth speaking to the practice manager and asking if you could see someone at the surgery with some experience in this area?
Hope you've recovered from your nasty shock.
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All I am saying on the matter joziel, is that as this is a public forum, you might want to think about your choice of words.
As one who is newly diagnosed with a disease which means my use of HRT had to come to an abrupt end, then yes, I do find you saying that zero oestrogen, can lend itself to other diseases, daunting.
I gained many benefits from HRT and even though I could never get the dose quite right, I continued for all the reasons you have stated. So with all due respect, I was not “ dissing” HRT at all. If I could use it, I would.
Hey Nas, lovely to see you being your usual fabulous self. I'm reading your other thread and sending positive vibes your way.
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Oh wow Elkwarning, it’s rare I hear that someone else knows of or suffers wirh PMDD…get over here right this second and give me a high five 👏😂🤗
Yep. 2 weeks of every month since 15yrs old has been pretty much a hormone hangover…so severe that sometimes when the hormones took a rest I was left feeling like I’d been drunk and was so embarrassed by some of the things I’d said/done…was a fog of emotional distress and severe anxiety from such erratic decision making…
I’ve learned to take a lot my mum says with a bucket of salt over the years, she loves me very much but her size doesn’t always fit all and I tried to do my own thing when it came to HRT…I really believed it was right for me…through the hours of research, the conversations with friends, the talks with docs…I dived in….but that one statement from my mum last week really was the most impactful thing I’ve heard from anyone “you’ve been battling with these god awful hormones your whole life, it might be a bit uncomfortable whilst in the transition but why on gods green earth do you want to go right back to the beginning and pump yourself full of what bit you”……and with that….i thought it might just be worth stripping it all back and seeing where my own body and mind take me
I’ll be back in a month crying out for advice 😂🤦♀️ but for now I do believe the estrogen pushed me over the edge…diet, exercise and sheer mental strength is going to have to do for now….
Did you find that dizziness and nausea was an issue in cold turkey? I pulled up at costa this morning felt like I’d been on the waltzers 🤣🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ xxxx
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I'm not meaning to upset anyone by sharing facts, but equally I'm not going to not share them or speak freely, for fear of 'upsetting' people. Or where would we be...
HRT is not for everyone and sadly some can't take it.
I had to take desogestrel for 10 years to suppress my own hormones and my endometriosis. I wish I didn't have to do that. It increased my own risk of several diseases, I had zero libido on it and I'm sure it contributed to my developing hypothyroidism. But I had to take it, to not have endometriosis. I didn't try to resolve that dissonance by kidding myself that all those negatives didn't exist, or by telling people I found what they said 'upsetting' if I came across conversations online where people were scaring others off taking birth control. I just knew that personally I didn't have a choice - I had to take it regardless and deal with the side effects and those increased risks.
Sometimes the cost-benefit analysis for one person comes out differently than for another.
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Joziel, when you you are abrupty told that you can no longer have any hormones in your body ever again, due to an illness or condition which has developed and then you read somewhere, that having zero oestrogen in you body, makes you prone to other diseases (as that is what you have said) then let me know.
In no way, shape or form, am I kidding myself that the negatives of not taking HRT do not exist for some women. On the contrary, I myself am already starting to see the impact of no oestrogen on my own body. But do I want to be reminded that this may increase my risk of developing further problems? Not really no.
As you rightly point out, HRT is not for everyone and some can't take it. So why not leave it there, instead of mentioning the negatives of not taking it.
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I personally believe that the protection that exogenous oestrogen might give in post menopause is exaggerated. Most of the cardiovascular research, for example, was carried out on young women and it is still to be seen if it actually helps post menopausal women.
Bones wise, progesterone is just as important as oestrogen, and if you go too far with oestrogen, it can lower your already far too dwindled natural progesterone levels.
It can all be questioned so if you can’t take it, it’s a good sign it’s not what your individual body needs.
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Hi Mary,
I’ve read many of your posts and wanted to message you but can’t as I haven’t done 10 posts.
I used to be on oestrogel and utrogestan but finally gave up at the start of last year.
Since then I’ve developed tinnitus, which I’ve read is statistically more common in women with low oestrogen levels. And I have a raised liver enzyme that keeps going up and feel tired and a bit unwell much of the time.
I suggested to my doctor that the same enzyme had been raised when I first went to see prof Studd (many years ago) had dropped back after starting the hrt he prescribed - oestrogel and utrogestan. He asked if I’d lost weight at the time, so wasn’t very open to it being hormone related. I’m not slim, am a bit overweight but not hugely so.
I managed hrt for years by tolerating as much utrogestan as I could (not that much) and reducing my oestrogel to a minimum… not everyday and not always even 1 pump. When I had my uterine lining checked it was ok.
I’m now 63, well post meno but am thinking about trying again.
I spoke to a different gp and had a discussion that felt like talking to a pharma rep. In the end I agreed to try patches but they just fall off. Though they are remarkably adhesive when it comes to my clothes.
I saw your post about your regime. I don’t think the progesterone gel you use is available in the U.K. Do you know of anything similar?
I got on pretty well with oestrogel it was the utrogestan that was completely debilitating. I tried vaginlly, I even tried squeezing some out to reduce the dose a bit but nothing seemed to help.
I appreciate if I explore any regime that is not the usual I need to make sure I get my uterine lining checked.
If I can find something that works I will then ask if my gp will prescribe but unfortunately I think I need to try to find something for myself first.
This is a very long way of asking what progesterones you know of in the U.K. that I might be able to source.
Thanks for all your posts. I regained a little hope in reading them!
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I just realised I may have posted to a thread I shouldn’t have. Apologies! I’m new to posting here!!
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" So why not leave it there, instead of mentioning the negatives of not taking it."
1) Because this is a thread from someone who was considering completely stopping HRT, due to side effects - when they can take it and have no known risk factors meaning they shouldn't take it.
2) Because the whole world isn't you, Nas. And I was giving advice to someone who wasn't you.
If you find facts about HRT and estrogen upsetting, sorry about that. I find many things in life upsetting to hear about. Life is genuinely upsetting. It's not the responsibility of the people who are telling us the upsetting things not to 'upset' us.
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Oh wow Elkwarning, it’s rare I hear that someone else knows of or suffers wirh PMDD…get over here right this second and give me a high five 👏😂🤗
Yep. 2 weeks of every month since 15yrs old has been pretty much a hormone hangover…so severe that sometimes when the hormones took a rest I was left feeling like I’d been drunk and was so embarrassed by some of the things I’d said/done…was a fog of emotional distress and severe anxiety from such erratic decision making…
I’ve learned to take a lot my mum says with a bucket of salt over the years, she loves me very much but her size doesn’t always fit all and I tried to do my own thing when it came to HRT…I really believed it was right for me…through the hours of research, the conversations with friends, the talks with docs…I dived in….but that one statement from my mum last week really was the most impactful thing I’ve heard from anyone “you’ve been battling with these god awful hormones your whole life, it might be a bit uncomfortable whilst in the transition but why on gods green earth do you want to go right back to the beginning and pump yourself full of what bit you”……and with that….i thought it might just be worth stripping it all back and seeing where my own body and mind take me
I’ll be back in a month crying out for advice 😂🤦♀️ but for now I do believe the estrogen pushed me over the edge…diet, exercise and sheer mental strength is going to have to do for now….
Did you find that dizziness and nausea was an issue in cold turkey? I pulled up at costa this morning felt like I’d been on the waltzers 🤣🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ xxxx
I think I have a slightly better handle on PMDD now as my youngest also has the diagnosis. Interestingly, or perhaps not, we're both autistic (she's still awaiting that to be formally confirmed) and I think this also has something to do with it, but I'm not sure what.
She moved back in with us during COVID, and at that time I went from peri to menopausal, so it's been a revelation to be in observation mode without being on the PMDD rollercoaster myself. My husband has to frequently remind me (when I'm merrily talking as if she's experiencing a symptom I've never had) that he recognises the pattern from many years of living with me. It's kind of scary to remember how gripping PMDD was, how unhinged it made me feel and what sort of person I could be when I was right in the thick of it.
On the plus side, this does translate into actual support for my daughter, who's doing pretty well because she's able to self-advocate for what she needs.
Did I feel sick and dizzy? I was a bit all over the place. But HRT didn't do me any favours. I couldn't say with any certainty what was the result of stuff going on and what was the hormones, and how far these were related. I think I'd give an unreliable account. However, I do know that my journey to recovery involved exercise (as you mention), herbs from a herbalist, therapy and a complete change of career. It's like I went into peri as one person and came out of the menopause as a completely different one.
For me, and I stress this really is just my perception and not something I'd try to suggest is widely applicable, I don't think HRT was appropriate because I was so sensitive to hormonal upheaval (PMDD, autism, who knows). Layering hormones so when they were up they were seriously up, I believe, caused me enormous difficulties.
Sorry responding on a phone and can't remember your other points
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" So why not leave it there, instead of mentioning the negatives of not taking it."
1) Because this is a thread from someone who was considering completely stopping HRT, due to side effects - when they can take it and have no known risk factors meaning they shouldn't take it.
2) Because the whole world isn't you, Nas. And I was giving advice to someone who wasn't you.
If you find facts about HRT and estrogen upsetting, sorry about that. I find many things in life upsetting to hear about. Life is genuinely upsetting. It's not the responsibility of the people who are telling us the upsetting things not to 'upset' us.
Hey, pretty sure this is unintentionally inappropriate at this time, but if you could rein it in a bit, that would be grand.
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Thanks Elk. Kinda hoped you’d be around.
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Joziel please just stop, you are being incredibly insensitive about this. You've made your point about how great hrt is, many times over and Nas accepts that amd isn’t challenging your world view, but please, the above just wasn't necessary.
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Likewise from me. I agree with Penguin and ElkWarning's comments.
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I will also step in here and say that I had to say something when joziel made insensitive, rude and aggressive comments on another thread upsetting the OP.
joziel, think about how your comments will affect other forum members before you click on the send button, because you are obviously getting it wrong with your attitude towards your fellow women.
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I totally agree. There is a time when comments become downright rude and distressing. This is one of those times. Just watch the tone sometimes.
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Joziel, this forum thrives not only on the exchange of knowledge & experience but on inclusion, kindness & sensitivity to others' circumstances, preferences, fears & worries. Nas is facing a very difficult situation with admirable grace & courage & I feel the tone of some of your comments to her on this thread is not in the spirit of what most of us try to do here.
the whole world isn't you, Nas. And I was giving advice to someone who wasn't you. If you find facts about HRT and estrogen upsetting, sorry about that. I find many things in life upsetting to hear about. Life is genuinely upsetting. It's not the responsibility of the people who are telling us the upsetting things not to 'upset' us.
If I were new to the forum or considering joining I would also find this thread offputting, so potentially counterproductive to your stated aim of helping women with HRT.
Charleyfarley, I'm sorry this has happened on your thread, but I'm pleased to see you feel you have had some helpful advice & support.
Later revision: a number of us have stated clearly how upset we've been by some of the posts here & having said in more detail what I felt needed to be heard earlier, I've now edited this post to its essence to reduce the potential in any future revival of the thread, for recurrent discomfort in a member I'm choosing to believe may not have been at her best at the time of posting & may therefore regret her manner.
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Also, Nas has been helpful, kind and supportive to other women on this forum, including me, despite her own serious health problems.
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2) Because the whole world isn't you, Nas. And I was giving advice to someone who wasn't you.
You are absolutely right Joziel, the whole world isn't me ( I mean could you imagine! :o)
All I am saying, is that this is a public forum, which any member can access. You are right, if a person doesn't like what they read, then scroll on.
However, unless you are clinically qualified to say this I wouldn't avoid estrogen and HRT forevermore because the impact of zero estrogen and menopause on health is to increase the risk of many diseases.... then I would have chosen my words more carefully.
You have women who have tried different HRT regimes and it didn't suit.
You have women who cannot take HRT for reasons known to them.
You have women who may be fearful of taking HRT due to unwanted side effects.
You have women who are on HRT, but it may not be working in the way they had hoped (but are now fearful of coming off it).
For all of those categories of women, to mention the possibilty of developing further diseases, is not necessary. That is not the same as denying the benefits of HRT. Of course many women benefit from the use of HRT and it can work wonders for those many women. I do not find the facts about HRT upsetting at all: on the contrary, as I have said, I gained many benefits from it previously.
But just spare a thought for the above groups of women.
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Hello everyone - Nas, I do know that you're going through a difficult time at the moment. And I do get that people are feeling protective towards you due to that. (Which is kind and shows what a nice place this forum is.)
However, I won't be told by someone else (regardless of who it is and what kind of a hard time they are having) that I can't tell people facts - because those facts offend others. That's it, really.
And as for the others here... I just find this situation genuinely upsetting. I get that you all care about Nas (who I haven't really had much to do with before this, it's not that I don't care - I just don't know her). I think that's great. But when she is essentially bullying other members and telling them what they can/can't say for fear of it upsetting her - and then you all piling on behind that and supporting her... then we have a situation which is more about ganging up and group dynamics and less about either factual truth or supporting people to pass on information they know is true.
Before you comment here, please be aware: This thread was started by a third party who was experiencing side effects and considering giving up HRT entirely. I gave that person advice about the increased risk of diseases resulting from not taking estrogen (amongst other advice, that wasn't all I said). Nas then appeared on this thread and told me I was 'upsetting' her by saying this and shouldn't be saying it.
I think what I have described in the previous paragraph is entirely unacceptable behaviour. Whoever it's from. Regardless of personal circumstances, I'm not going to tolerate it - because that would be condoning bullying. What gives anyone else the right to appear out of no where and tell them they can't say what they're saying, because they find it 'upsetting'? Whatever next, maybe we should cancel all news programs forevermore. No more of that 'upsetting' nasty news. Who wants facts? We might upset someone with them.
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Joziel, from my point of view, it wasn't what you said about HRT I found upsetting, but the tone of your posts. Had it been just a one off on this thread, I probably wouldn't have got involved, but (big breath & I'm sorry to say this) I've found some of your posts elsewhere on the forum upsetting too - Katherine's thread on testosterone comes to mind & there have been others I've noticed but not been involved in that have made me catch my breath. I hate conflict & before getting involved asked myself was I just being a giant snowflake, but others have also stepped in & said much the same here, so over-sensitivity on my part seemed less likely & conscience wouldn't let me pass by on the other side of the road.
I feel the forum as a whole does such good work that it's a stressful, heartsink situation to witness when things go sour & as women there's an innate protective instinct that's triggered at such times. Bearing in mind medics often recommend women come here for advice & support at a time when many are especially vulnerable, the forum must have a reasonable reputation for providing that & I feel we have a collective responsibility to uphold that standard.
I know you yourself are struggling with difficult symptoms & I wondered whether that's affecting the way you post. Not relevant to this thread, but I know you are relatively new to T3 & you may not be aware that at the wrong dose that can have adverse effects on our emotional health, affecting patience among other things (much like testosterone at the wrong dose). I don't know whether you feel that's a possibility, or it's simply that your posts feel reasonable to you in a situation you felt was unjust. I thought about PMing you to suggest the T3 scenario the other day but imagined you would not want to hear from me in the circs. Please don't feel obliged to respond, but again - it's the sense of responsibility I feel towards women with thyroid issues, given many of us feel pretty much alone with thyroid treatment if we have probs beyond the basics that the NHS can't deal with.
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That's such a lovely post Wren.
@ Joziel, I'm an incredibly abrasive person in text (not saying your are, just that I know I am). The amount of times I manage to miscommunicate is astonishing, and then I feel really low. I really do hope you're not having those same feelings, because it's a very lonely place to be.
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Joziel , hands up, it was wrong of me to comment on another members thread ( apologies Charleyfarley, I do hope you have found the advice and support of the members, useful and reassuring :)) I had no intention of hijacking your post.
I can assure you, I am no bully, either virtually or in reality. How other members wish to respond, is entirely their prerogative.
I have never dictated what you can and can’t say. Only to think about how you phrase your words. It’s called empathy!
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The amount of times I manage to miscommunicate is astonishing, and then I feel really low.
It's so easily done Elk & I'm sure I must have done it way more often than I have any idea of. We miss all those important non-verbal cues when we can't see or hear those we're conversing with to know how what we're saying is being received, whether it's appropriate to continue in the same vein etc. In fact I've been conflicted about involvement with the forum from day 1, fearing inadvertently saying something potentially harmful or upsetting to someone whose circumstances & state of mind we can't be sure of when all we "know" of them is what they choose to portray or reveal. To say sleep is not my forte is a massive understatement, but worse than ever with the worry of this thread. So I second your wishes & extend them to everyone involved who's been troubled by this thread.
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For Nas and anyone else who can't use HRT that is interested, the name of the new hormone free drug for menopause symptoms is Veoza, also known as fezolinetant. It's expensive but definitely worth a try.
@Lesley who asked me about my progesterone gel on this thread by mistake, no, I'm afraid it's not available in the UK but it is very similar to Biovea progesterone cream.
Perhaps you could start a new thread?
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Thanks Mary, that’s really helpful. Will research now.
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Nas, Fezolinetant has been on my list to discuss with my Endocrinologist since I first read about it some months ago, but at that time it hadn't been approved for use in the UK. I will set up a new thread for it as not relevant to this one.
Mary G thanks for flagging up that it's now prescribable here :). Good news & looks as though it may be available on the NHS later too.
Wx
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Thanks Wren
That’s my research for next week x