Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: HaRuHaRu on October 13, 2023, 04:38:21 PM
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My usual pharmacies are no longer sending out the old style Estrogel bottles with the green lid - I’m one of the people who has issues with the new bottles - I’ve tried some online pharmacies but they also only have the newer smaller bottles with white lid. Is that it now? The older bottles are no longer?? If anyone knows of an online pharmacy who are still depending the old bottles can you please let me know here or via message? Thank you :) I’d really like to get through the rest of this year without more unnecessary upsets...
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Do you have an independant pharmacy in your area? I use one and pharmacist always seems to try and get what I request if possible. I have been supplied with the white lidded Oestrogel bottles for the last 3 months of prescriptions.
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Have you tried other local pharmacies?
I've only seen the green lidded oestrogel, I get one every three weeks, but for another unrelated medicine that I get on prescription, I ask for it to be on it's own piece of paper so I can get that in another chemist because they stock the brand I prefer.
Shopping around is the only way I know of getting the exact one you want.
Sorry that's not a lot of help, they are far too casual about the side effects of changing the hormones even a little, it's not a minor inconvenience when you suddenly can't function as expected by everyone else around you.
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;D ;D ;D
Why am I laughing?
After posting that I'd never seen anything but green lids, I remembered I'd not applied it yet today, cracked open the new pack and yes, you guessed it, it's got a white lid ;D ;D ;D
On a more useful note, I had one and a half pumps on my arm from the green lid bottle and my dose is three pumps. I got the new one working by completing the half pump, then placed the next full pump beside the first.
One full pump from the white lid bottle was only about two thirds the volume of the first pump from the green lid bottle.
I think it's a smaller amount, so is it stronger to make up the difference? It certainly isn't exactly the same.
I took photos to show the GP or pharmacist if needed, it was a smaller amount from every angle.
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I also found a massive change in the new shaped bottles.
I have had to swap to a new gel which is very frustrating as the best one for me was the Oestrogel with the orange square, which I believe was manufactured by Besins in Belgium. I felt more like myself when using that one but I could not find them in stock anywhere.
I have been on the new gel for 4 days so it is early days. I have felt very anxious but I am hoping that settles down soon. I may need to tweak my dose but I am giving it at least 3 weeks before I do.
I know lots of women have reported this on the yellow card scheme but I am not sure anyone actually cares about the fact this this is obviously an inferior product. My guess is it is cheaper to produce and profit is being put before women's wellbeing. >:(
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I have read somewhere that the parallel import product containers may deliver less gel due to a different pump mehcanism so this may cause issues - in which case just increase the amount a little - and I agree this must be very frustrating if inconsistent amounts are dispensed. As far as I understand it, the gel itself is all manufactured by Besins with the same ingredients, to the same formulation, as well as (obviously) with the same dose of oestradiol, and will be governed by strict quality controls, otherwise it could not be martketed as the same product. It's not a case of a generic product being produced - as for example with Vagifem and Vagirux - if they are produced by different manufacturers?? (not sure of the details here). If it is sold as Oestrogel, then it has to be Oestrogel, and all that entails.
Hurdity x
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Hi Hurdity,
The product also has a different smell and consistancy. I tried upping the amount but it made no difference at all to me, but that may help others.
If the difference is the amount being dispensed, then surely Besins should have notified everyone about upping their doses.
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Just chipping in here...
I started on gel with the green lids (also green squares). Then was switched to the white lids with cylinder bottles.
I feel like the amount coming out with the white lid is inconsistent. And also the bottle doesn't seem to last 64 pumps. I calculated it and put in my diary when to switch bottles (I'm on 4 pumps/day) and about 3 days before I was due to switch I started to get half pumps coming out, where it just ran out...
I had bloods done last week and only have 283pmol on 4 pumps of gel. I didn't have them tested when I was on green lids, this is my first test on the gel, so can't compare...
Sue have you switched to Sandrena gel and how are you finding it? Not sure how the dosage compares. I've been thinking about that, especially if I need more gel... I'm running out of body parts to apply it to.
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Hi joziel,
Yes, I have started on the Sandrena gel. It is hard to tell how it compares as I have only been using it for 4 days and I have also just had Covid, so not really over that yet!
I was on 3 pumps of Oestrogel and have been told to use 1.5 sachets of Sandrena. x
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Hi Ladies
I have today raised a yellow card on the white lid oestrogel. I've felt horrendous since starting a new pump pack. I've definitely felt these bottles are not nearly as consistent as the blue tops and find I'm forever adding more gel to try and feel well. But this latest bottle is even worse and feels like it is not having any effect at all! I switched to a different batch new bottle and feel a lot better today. It is still white lid but I added an extra pump too.
Why is this problem still continuing? I feel we are being ignored :'(
Cookie
Xxxxx
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I don't know. Even Louise Newson did some Instagram post recently saying all these bottles are interchangeable and the same thing.... It was met by 650000 women telling her otherwise!!
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This is interesting reading - I have only recently started HRT (post meno) had been on the green-lid for 6 weeks with no issues, although I do know it takes time to take effect. I switched to the white lid and immediately got migraines back (on separate thread) and someone on my thread suggested I needed more Estrogel rather than less (I am only 1 pump)
I've been just switched to patches but will bear this in mind if things don't work out, it may be I do need more rather than less and the pump pack was an issue..... who knows. But thanks for adding another option in as I really want to stay on HRT if I can get the migraines back under control!!
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Migraines are a classic low estrogen symptom for me.... I have very few now I'm on HRT.
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And now there are TWO different white lid cylindrical bottles ::)
'The cylindrical bottle with a white lid may come with either a preprinted canister label or a canister with the label adhered'
https://www.besinshealthcare.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/BHUK_2023_681-Product-Supply-Update-In-Stock-Template-18-Sept-23-v1-FINAL.pdf
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I seem to have 2 with white lids made in Belgium and 2 made in France. I guess, different factories...
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Hello joziel, how how you know where they have been made? All my bottle's leaflets say manufactured in Belgium or France. I feel my symptoms have returned on the white lid bottles and I can't up the dose, on 4 pumps already.? Thanks.
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I had the same, both addresses on the bottles!
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Pls see from Besins below and email them if you also have issues with the smaller bottles - hopefully if enough people complain they will listen.
I’m not even sure its to do with the amount dispensed - I think although the active ingredient is the same, it’s possible that a change in inactive ingredients has effected how some of us are absorbing/ reacting. I’ve experienced this with other medications - a change in inactive ingredients can make a huge difference to how it’s absorbed and also to other side effects.
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From Besins:
"We are hearing from a significant number of women that the new Oestrogel container does not seem to be dispensing the same metered dose of the product every time. Some feel that symptoms have returned after using the product dispensed from the new shape canister."
We take the safety and quality of our products seriously. As part of a pharmaceutical company’s statutory requirement imposed by the regulatory authorities, Besins Healthcare is required to follow up on any suspected adverse events that we become aware of concerning our medicines.
If you would like to report your experiences please send an email directly to this address drugsafety@besins- healthcare.com and they will respond to you for further information.
All the information and personal data shared with us will be protected and kept confidential in line with local regulations. The information provided will be used for the purpose of drug safety surveillance and it may be shared with health authorities. You have a right of access to your personal data which we hold about you.
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I've had a thought about this....
On the new cylinder bottles, there is a little lid/cap on a bendy thing to seal the dispenser pump with. There isn't one on the old shaped bottles. I haven't been using the lid/cap. Have other people??
Because one theory I have, is maybe the gel has been evaporating because we are not capping it in between uses??? It has alcohol in it after all....
I've now started capping my bottles.... Have other people been using the little cap thing?
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I was using the cap but it made no difference to me :(
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Hi
I seem to be having problems with the new gel too. I think they have changed the amounts of the non active ingredients as it is definitely runnier than the green lid bottles. I am seeing a menopause specialist on Thursday so will ask her about this. I may change to patch or sandrena gel. Had a terrible hormone crash trying to change to Femseven (mainly to try a different progesterone) so I am guessing if I do change to a patch I will need to add some gel in for a few days until I start to get take up from the patch?
I'll report back if I get any feedback from the menopause expert.
Kirsti x
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I've had a thought about this....
On the new cylinder bottles, there is a little lid/cap on a bendy thing to seal the dispenser pump with. There isn't one on the old shaped bottles. I haven't been using the lid/cap. Have other people??
Because one theory I have, is maybe the gel has been evaporating because we are not capping it in between uses??? It has alcohol in it after all....
I've now started capping my bottles.... Have other people been using the little cap thing?
Hi joziel,
I read this posted on mumsnet by Cylindricalfrustration · 16/10/2023 07:37
“ I have noticed that if you don’t put the stopper back on you get a lot less in a dose (1.00mg) but if the stopper is on when storing you get a bigger dose next time but still not 1.25g”
The thread is :
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/menopause/4696464-oestrogel-new-packaging-yet-again?page=30
Hope this might help!
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Wow that thread is very interesting, all 32 pages of it ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi
Update after seeing a menopause expert.
She has confirmed the consistency of the gel is different. I am guessing that this is affecting absorption and that is why we are struggling. No one knows what dose is right for them now! I guess it is trial and error until you get it right?
Or bessins sort their act out!
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Wow that thread is very interesting, all 32 pages of it ;D ;D ;D ;D
Lol joziel, any chance you can provide an exec summary please so I don't have to read all 32 pages of it 🤣
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Ummmm.... there really is a problem but we don't know what it is and the manufacturers are not helping much. But if we all file Yellow cards or whatever they'll have to look into it.
I'm doing okay on 5 pumps of gel, but not yet totally symptom free at night. Then I put a blob of it on my face ;D too, so it's probably about 5.5 pumps ;D
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I was a happy oestrogel user for 18 months. For approx 6 months I had been on 3 pumps per day. I don't care what anyone says, my new cylindrical bottles did not contain the same gel as before. The consistency was stickier and within a few weeks all my symptoms came back. I upped my dose to 4.5/5 pumps and it got better, but never as good as before. My next cylindrical batch was even worse - I ended up taking 5/5.5 pumps per day and was still getting symptoms.
A few days ago I switched to Sandrena. For far so good, fingers crossed this will be my new saviour!
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Banjo1973,
I was exactly the same as you. I could have written your post myself.
I have also started on Sandrena as I couldn't cope with the trial and error with the new bottles. I just wanted some consistency again, which I think I have found with the Sandrena gel. 🙏
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Sue1972...
Thank you. It's been hard when people haven't been believing me. Although there seem to be a lot of us now shunning new oestrogel.
Question... how much Sandrena are you taking?
I was on 3 pumps of (proper) oestrogel. I was told to take 1.5 sachets of 1mg Sandrena. However, I did my own calculations in terms of estradiol in it and have decided to start with 2×1mg sachets daily.
I have read conflicting information, do you think it is too much?
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I think it's pretty hard to equate these things exactly but starting slightly lower than you think you need and increasing every 4 weeks is a good plan, just like you did originally...
I can't bear the thought of doing this so I am just going to take ever-more Oestrogel until I reach some point where surely I'm getting enough estrogen even if it takes me 5 hours to dry.
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Like you, I was so scared to try something new. But I just didn't ever feel great on new oestrogel - no matter how much I used (full disclosure had resorted to 6/7 pumps on some day).
Within 2 days of switching, I started to get my mojo back.
But we're all individuals and switching might not be for everyone.
Good luck x
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Hi Banjo1973,
I was very lucky, my menopause nurse completely took on board what I was saying, even though I think I was the first woman who had mentioned this to her. She was the one who told me about this forum, so when I explained that other ladies on here had been having the same return of symptoms she was very happy for me to try the Sandrena gel.
I was also on 3 pumps of Oestrogel and the nurse told me to start of 1.5 sachets Sandrena and increase to 2 if I felt it was necessary. I split the dose and use 1 sachet in the morning and half a sachet at night. Since I started the new gel I have had covid and an infection so I have not had a consistant period of time where I have felt well, so I have not really been able to monitor how the 1.5 is working for me. This is the first week where I have not been battling something else and I have not had any of the really horrible symptoms. I have just noticed a slightly off feeling in the evening so I will give it another week or so and then maybe try upping to 2 full sachets a day.
All in all I am very very happy with the Sandrena gel and so happy to be out of the Oestrogel lottery. x
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Hi Sue 1972
Sorry to hear you've not been well, hopefully you'll go from strength to strength.
If you don't mind, I'd quite like to hear some updates on how you're getting on with Sandrena as we seem to be of similar ages with a once happy routine of 3 pumps of oestrogel (the good stuff obvs). Just for information I also take sequential utrogestan vaginally (not as often as I should do, but I really don't like it) also a minimum dose of tostran.
I've only been on Sandrena a few days, but felt an instant improvement with my 2 sachets every morning. I took 1.5 this morning and started to feel a bit jittery this afternoon, so took the other half. I don't know if 2 sachets is a really high dose or if this is all in my head. Or could that be down to the utrogestan (I'm on day 5, as I said I hate taking it).
I'd love to know what the right dose is for me and if I should continue the 2 whole sachets per day
It would be interesting to hear how you're progressing with it.
Thank you x
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Hi Banjo1973,
I have just turned 51.
I am also on a sequential regime. I take 2 tablets of Utrogesten orally for 2 weeks and then I take a break for 2 weeks. This seems to work for me, and I actually seem to feel better whilst taking the tablets and worse when on the break. However since I have been using the Sandrena gel I don't seem to have had the same dip, but that could be because I have been struggling with other things that made me unwell so I have not really had the chance to know for sure. I am currently on the 2nd day of no tablets again and all seems well so far 🤞
I believe 1.5mg is the recommended maximum for the gel but my meno nurse did say I could use 2 sachets if I felt that was necessary.
Do you apply it all at once or do you split your dose? I use 1mg in the morning and 0.5mg in the evening. I was also given a top tip about applying gel and that is to put it direct onto your skin and rub it in using your fingertips but not too much. This made a huge difference when I was using the Oestrogen so I use the same technique with the Sandrena gel.
One of my worst symptoms was anxiety and that was still a bit of an issue on the Oestrogen but I do feel a lot calmer on the Sandrena gel.
I hope you find an answer to the dosage issue. 🙏
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I think that as long as you are protecting your uterine lining sufficiently, you should be able to increase your estrogen to whatever is needed to fix the symptoms. That's my understanding anyway...
If you are on a high dose of estrogen (or have high serum estrogen levels) you should probably take extra progesterone.
I'm already on 2x utrogestan continuously (with a break of about 4-5 days to allow a bleed as I'm peri) due to endometriosis prevention and I now have no endo symptoms, which is one less thing to worry about anyway. It also means I can increase my estrogen some...
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Thank you Sue1972 and joziel,
Turns out I was ill, so my jitters were not down to oestrogen. I've been using 1.5 1g sachets for the last 3 days and I've been fine.
I have got a scan booked so hopefully my uterus is ok, I've always had very light periods, I don't know if this is good or bad!
I'm so glad I made the change to Sandrena, I'm feeling like my old self again
Thank you for all your support xxx
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That is great news Banjo1973,
I am also not having my usual dip so I am very happy to have moved to the Sandrena gel. I also feel that 1.5mg dose is sufficient for me now I have had a period of not being ill with anything else 🙌 x