Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: LC1962 on September 18, 2023, 11:55:55 AM
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Hello. I used to be Sweet Pea…but no longer have my email or password, so had to re register!
I was always on here asking for help regarding overwhelming anxiety, and came back to share something and ask advice. I am 62 now, and suffered dreadfully with anxiety from peri right through menopause, some here describe it as the morning dreads, or morning dooms. For around ten years, I have literally woken every morning feeling like I am about to face the dentist from hell, or sit a terrible exam. Churning stomach, butterflies, no energy, no motivation…staring into space, almost crying, just getting in the shower is like climbing a mountain. I usually feel a lot better by lunchtime, but this really impacted my life and I am always terrible sad and depressed. Life has been crap for so long. I have been on Prozac for a long time, but reached what the Americans call ‘poop out’ where it no longer seemed to help, or perhaps it just wasn’t the right cure for my anxiety. My sister took her own life at age 56, and my mother suffered with crippling ‘nerves’ as she called it, so I knew I was probably genetically predisposed. I also knew, as I genuinely have such an easy wonderful life and husband, that it must be physiological …cortisol imbalance or adrenal something….as I have no reason to feel this way.
Sadly, I’ve been self medicating with alcohol for a number of years, I don’t drive, and don’t work, so I would have a few glasses of wine just to get that ‘ahh, there it is’ woozy, don’t care feeling. Of course, alcohol makes me even more anxious for different reasons and I knew I had to get help somehow.
To cut a rather long story a little shorter, I joined an online alcohol group for support and advice There, I met a woman who told me she felt exactly the same way as me, and found her saviour in progesterone gel. I have tried HRT years ago, Premarin, but it gave me visual migraines, so I stopped. I still however use topical Ovestin cream for atrophy. This lady lives in France where you can get the gel OTC. So….I managed to get some gel from a French pharmacy who ship to the uk. I looked into it, and found that two, 2.5cm of 1mg gel rubbed into the soft areas of skin once a day was unlikely to be dangerous …I also thought it was unlikely to work at such a low dose but thought I had nothing to lose. After two weeks..the difference is life changing. I am waking in the morning, bright, alert, happy, motivated….I’m like a different person. I have a GP appointment where I hope she will be sympathetic and supportive to my experiment and prescribe it for me properly.
In the meantime, can anyone who knows about hormones explain to me why this might work so well for me? I really like to understand things. Is there such a thing as estrogen dominance, and should I have been ‘balanced’ by progesterone all these wasted years? Is it safe for me to take, as I still have uterus/ovaries? Is there a better way to apply or take progesterone that I can ask my GP about? ( I also feel I need to say I had a terrible time with PMT as a girl, and suffered with post partum depression…I also was able to get pregnant very, very easily. ) Latterly suffered with dreadful migraines too.
I’m happy to say I have more or less stopped drinking, almost overnight as the obsession with altering my mind with booze has gone!
Any input gratefully received.
Thanks
Edit:spelling
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Well done on stopping the alcohol which is also a depressive.
If a lady has womb she will require some form of progesterone to cleanse the womb and stop a build up. If your self medicating is working, stick with it. U may not require this for many years, or it may keep you stable for ever. Try not to over think it, it's a replacement therapy and sometimes a reason isn't found. Simply that the body responds positively.
Do U keep a mood/food/symptom diary to chart progress? I had intense sudden anxiety in the early hours, probably due to cortisol surges. I would wake, terrified :-\ :'(.
Little steps. How do U propose to continue getting the gel? MayB ask your GP for a referral to a dedicated menopause clinic for advice. Let us know how you get on.
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Hi
This is amazing!!!!
Yes. There absolutely is such a thing as estrogen dominance. It's an imbalance between estrogen and prog. You can have it even if your estrogen is not high.
Our progesterone plummets dramatically in peri - long before estrogen.
I have this. But unfortunately I've not found my magic cure. I am taking prog in cream form, from a private bhrt clinic. But it's very early days on my retrial.
Can I ask how quickly you felt the impact? If you're only just past the two week mark? Also what total dose do you take a day of this gel??!
Honestly - if you've found something to work, stick with it. If your GP is supportive, the only things they can give you will be oral utrogestan or cyclogest pessaries - both very high doses, which bring their own problems. I dont think the gel is licenced in UK - bug I could be wrong.
I am soooo pleased for you. estrogen dominance has been wrecking my life for the last 6 years. All the NHS offer me is estrogen. So please, do be careful when discussing with your GP. The UK do not believe estrogen dominance exists. No idea why. It exists in other parts of the world.
Good luck xxx
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Hi there, firstly I am so thrilled for you. Secondly I can really relate as it made such a huge difference for me too. I use utrogestan every other day but would prefer to find something I could use every day instead - is your gel easy to obtain, I would like to try.
I echo CrispyChick, your GP may not be on board although as you are not taking systemic oestrogen you don't have the worry of your womb thickening. I don't have my womb so it's not a problem I have to deal with either, luckily.
I hope you continue to feel like this, with it being a gel you can always adjust your dose in the future should you need to. xx
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Thanks all for the support and encouragement! Oooh, I didn’t even think perhaps could NOT get this gel in the UK on the NHS. It’s used in France, available over the counter for breast pain. 2.5cm gel, it comes with a measuring scoop, so one measurement on the inside of each thigh. I don’t rub it in well as it’s supposed to work better if naturally absorbed. It’s called Progestogel, and I found it here.
https://moncoinsante.com/mcs/en/various-medications/11140-progestogel-1-tube-80g-for-targeted-areas-applicator-3400931314127.html
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Hi
This is amazing!!!!
Yes. There absolutely is such a thing as estrogen dominance. It's an imbalance between estrogen and prog. You can have it even if your estrogen is not high.
Our progesterone plummets dramatically in peri - long before estrogen.
I have this. But unfortunately I've not found my magic cure. I am taking prog in cream form, from a private bhrt clinic. But it's very early days on my retrial.
Can I ask how quickly you felt the impact? If you're only just past the two week mark? Also what total dose do you take a day of this gel??!
Honestly - if you've found something to work, stick with it. If your GP is supportive, the only things they can give you will be oral utrogestan or cyclogest pessaries - both very high doses, which bring their own problems. I dont think the gel is licenced in UK - bug I could be wrong.
I am soooo pleased for you. estrogen dominance has been wrecking my life for the last 6 years. All the NHS offer me is estrogen. So please, do be careful when discussing with your GP. The UK do not believe estrogen dominance exists. No idea why. It exists in other parts of the world.
Good luck xxx
Hi! I started noticing a better mood after about a week…after two weeks it’s unmistakable. I’m me again. The gel comes with a plastic thing to measure it out….it’s 1mg prog. I squeeze 2.5 in to the measurement then rub it on one thigh and do the same on the other. It disappears quickly…got a high alcohol content I think, smells like isopropyl. Thanks so much for your input…at least I’m armed with info! She’s not my regular GP…she has a special interest in woman’s health and is very sympathetic. Takes forever to get an appointment though, its in mid November!
Hope you get your anxiety sorted too…isn’t it hellish. Xxx
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I've seen it LC1962.
Yes, the anxiety is hellish. It's not my worst symptom though - I get poisioned from high estrogen. My own. It's awful.
By all means speak to your GP. But just remember you have found something that works. If they offer you alternatives - you'll need to weigh it up. Personally I'd keep buying from France. But then, I've been through 2 years of prog trials and still not sorted. And, as gnatty highlights, she's taking utro in a random fashion.
100mg utro in one hit tends to be too big. Certainly was for me.
And, unfortunately, I've found the NHS, including specialist meno clinic absolutely in the dark about low prog. Instead they just encourage me to take more estrogen 😞. I've had to pay a lot of money to a bhrt clinic to learn about this.
Mary G takes Prog gel as part of her hrt. She might be along with some info. Not sure if it's the same one.
I am so pleased if you. You're story sounds horrific and, if I'm being honest, very similar to my own. Just left to get on with it because conventional hrt (E with P) doesn't fit.
It's definitely more common in parts of Europe and the US to treat with just progesterone. Through all my research, it looks pretty safe. Certainly safer than estrogen.
Keep us updated. X
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CrispyChick if it helps, I find utro every day just way too much too. Maybe my only taking it every other day stops that accumulation that then brings about the low mood etc.
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Hey OP - so glad you’ve found this gel that works!
Oestrogen dominance or an imbalance with progesterone is definitely a thing.
It causes me untold issues and I’m get to find the right progesterone I can tolerate. I recognise that morning dread so so well. Were you getting other symptoms too?
Hope the Gp is helpful. The UK is terrible for this issue. I’ve also had hrt given to me and it made me so much worse. Came off that years ago. I’m 44. I had a recent blood test taken on a day I felt absolutely dreadful and actually unhinged and my oestrogen came back as 999pmol! I need progesterone.
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CrispyChick if it helps, I find utro every day just way too much too. Maybe my only taking it every other day stops that accumulation that then brings about the low mood etc.
Really interested in this Gnatty - what symptoms were you getting on utrogestan daily? I’ve tried it continually orally and vaginally and I got all sorts of symptoms. And an extended cycle. I’ve never tried it just in luteal or alternate days.
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I've seen it LC1962.
Yes, the anxiety is hellish. It's not my worst symptom though - I get poisioned from high estrogen. My own. It's awful.
Hi again. That sounds awful for you. Can I ask you, did you ever get a terrible taste in your mouth when it all started? When I hit peri, I got THE most poisonous, constant taste that I could not get rid of. It lasted for ages and I’ve never forgotten it. Again, my GP was unhelpful, telling me he had ‘never of heard that as any kind of symptom of anything’. I thought it was from a recent dental implant and was considering having it removed, when I found out that as the ovaries reach the end of their life they can sometimes have a last desperate flurry or push…and deliver estrogen in shed loads, and it’s pumped out in your saliva! Yuk, it was awful.
Thanks again.
Thank god for this group. It’s only by speaking to other women I realise I’m not going mad.
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Hey OP - so glad you’ve found this gel that works!
Oestrogen dominance or an imbalance with progesterone is definitely a thing.
It causes me untold issues and I’m get to find the right progesterone I can tolerate. I recognise that morning dread so so well. Were you getting other symptoms too?
Hope the Gp is helpful. The UK is terrible for this issue. I’ve also had hrt given to me and it made me so much worse. Came off that years ago. I’m 44. I had a recent blood test taken on a day I felt absolutely dreadful and actually unhinged and my oestrogen came back as 999pmol! I need progesterone.
Scampidoodle, can you tell me any other symptoms you’ve had from estrogen dominance/imbalance? I’m 62. I really thought everything would have settled by now, but I appear to still be very susceptible to hormonal fluctuations. Things also seem to come in cycles…like they used to, but my anxiety was pretty constant.
Maybe you could try the Progestogel. The postage is a but steep at around 20 but I order five at a time as the best by date was 2027 on the last tube.
Xx
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Hiya,
I get a difficulty to lose weight, easily gaining weight around my thighs, tummy area, heart palpitatons, anxiety, jittery, histamine issues including gut pain, rashes, itchy, watery eye, hot flushes, temperature dysregulation, rosacea. Also awful pms. I also had bad post natal depression. Cysts on ovaries in my teens and twenties.
A lot of these can be low oestrogen symptoms but not for all. High oestrogen causes your histamine levels to rise causing all sorts of issues with mast cells whjch are immune cells. Can cause chronic fatigue and allergy symptoms.
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this is really interesting- thanks for letting us know, Op! I'll be following with interest :)
Gnatty-
hi!! can I ask you something? firstly really pleased to see that you're still doing well. I'm currently taking progesterone- in bijuve- 100mg every day but would like to cut down to alternate days. Do you take it orally on alternate days? good luck with finding an alternative that you can take every day. I certainly agree that daily utro (or equivalent) is too much!
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Hi there, sorry I only just read your post. Yes I am taking it orally alternate days. The problem with vaginally for me - I think! - is that I absorb even more that way and it makes me hot in the middle of the night!! And not in a good way ..... 😂 xx
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LC1962, your progesterone gel sounds similar to the Darstin progesterone gel that I buy from the pharmacy in Spain. It's very good stuff.
Would you telling telling us more about your gel like the strength etc?
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And to answer Scampidoodle - apologies again for tardiness - when I took it every day I felt low in energy, a bit down in the dumps and generally too warm, particularly in the middle of the night. I wonder whether the alternate days stops it building up in my system.
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Thanks Gnatty that’s helpful x
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Hello LC1962, :)
Thank you so much for this Topic, the progesterone question is very important for me because I was on progesterone only treatment for number of years in my peri and I felt great. I don’t know why NHS pay too much attention to oestrogen and leave behind progesterone. Just like oestrogen, progesterone has its own preceptors everywhere in the body, but if our body still manage to produce some form of oestrogen after menopause, unfortunately the body stops producing progesterone at all!!! And this may create a problem, oestrogen becomes dominant, weight gain, falling hair, depression, water retention, itchy skin…..
A was prescribed oestrogen 3 months ago or so, but it made me completely ill, so I am back on progesterone only treatment again, looking for right medication because NHS can’t really offer a big choice of progesterone product. Currently I have to use utrogestan, an awful product, I am struggling with it, but things much have improved for me since I stopped taking oestrogen and continue only with progesterone.
I wish you the best and take care of yourself.
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AngelaH, we have several women on here who suffer with severe oestrogen dominance and feel poisoned by oestrogen but they have a hard time being believed and are told there is no such thing as oestrogen dominance when in fact there is.
Oestrogen dominance happens at the beginning of peri menopause with progesterone completely tanks and oestrogen remains high and very unstable. That is fact and it's what they refer to as oestrogen dominance in the US but it is not recognised by the NHS.
Tanking progesterone kicked started my silent migraines and panic attacks and other women have a whole host of symptoms. At that stage of the menopause we need more progesterone ie the calming, balancing hormonal.
I don't like Utrogestan and I don't think it is a well tolerated form of progesterone and it's the most debated problem on here by far. God knows what it is but there is something horrible about that stuff and it's worth noting that you don't have to be progesterone intolerant to have problems with it.
My advice is to find something else. I like the Darstin gel but that is only suitable for women on a low dose of oestrogen post menopause. There is Cyclogest which is better tolerated or Crinone vaginal gel or you might need to take the compounded route.
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Mary G and AngelaH, there is a good US group on Facebook called Estrogen Dominance Group if you haven't come across it before. It has a very large following, you will be believed on there. I left a few years ago, but one progesterone product they recommended was a natural one called Onas. I found the group very helpful.
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I'd just add to that Penguin. That particular FB group advocate very high doses of Progesterone.
Anyone looking at it, just be careful.
But if is very useful in general terms xx
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I am so glad I’ve found this thread. I haven’t posted on here for a while as feeling like I have nothing to add but I’m always reading.
I’ve been on HRT various doses for almost 2 years and just feel like nothing is helping. My main symptom being depression, just feel cloaked in black mist on far too many days. Oh god yes and the morning dread, it usually gets better through the day but sometimes doesn’t.
I’m on 150mg of Sertraline (AD) and have been for ages and I feel like I may as well be taking sugar pills as they have no affect. I’ve given up asking my GP for advice as they have been no help so I research the hell out of everything and try different things. I take so many vitamins and I’ve been on high does of oestrogen and low and nothing is helping. I take 100mg Utrogestan every night. Thinking back to when I first started HRT I was on Evorel Conti patches and I always felt better on the progesterone part in the latter 2 weeks. I couldn’t find anyone else who felt the same so thought I was just imagining things.
I was literally just googling and looking into whether I may need more progesterone and came across this thread and actually feel some hope. It did cross my mind whether I could take 200mg of Utro a night, I am currently on 3 pumps of oestrogel.
Anyway I’m waffling on now, but wondering if I should try this progesterone gel as well as continuing with 100mg utro a night. Any advice would be gratefully received. I’m having such a rough few days and just need some hope xx
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Thanks for the info Penguin.
Toriij, you have nothing to lose by trying the progesterone gel, it certainly won't do you any harm.
I have looked up the French gel that LC1962 mentioned and it would appear to be the same strength as my Spanish Darstin gel. I can honestly say that I have zero side effects from using it unlike Utrogestan which kicked off my migraines. It looks like you can buy progesterone gel online.
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Great info Mary
What would the dose be that LC1962 is taking that has calmed her anxiety???
I'm retrying compounded P cream, but my anxiety is problematic.
X
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Crispy, from what I can make out, LC1962 is using two measures of gel which is 20mg every day.
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Thanks Mary. ;D
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I'd just add to that Penguin. That particular FB group advocate very high doses of Progesterone.
Anyone looking at it, just be careful.
But if is very useful in general terms xx
Thanks for pointing that out CrispyChick, I wasn't aware of the issue re doses, I'll caveat it if I recommend the group again.
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thanks Gnatty- helpful as always :)
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I've seen it LC1962.
Yes, the anxiety is hellish. It's not my worst symptom though - I get poisioned from high estrogen. My own. It's awful.
By all means speak to your GP. But just remember you have found something that works. If they offer you alternatives - you'll need to weigh it up. Personally I'd keep buying from France. But then, I've been through 2 years of prog trials and still not sorted. And, as gnatty highlights, she's taking utro in a random fashion.
100mg utro in one hit tends to be too big. Certainly was for me.
And, unfortunately, I've found the NHS, including specialist meno clinic absolutely in the dark about low prog. Instead they just encourage me to take more estrogen 😞. I've had to pay a lot of money to a bhrt clinic to learn about this.
Mary G takes Prog gel as part of her hrt. She might be along with some info. Not sure if it's the same one.
I am so pleased if you. You're story sounds horrific and, if I'm being honest, very similar to my own. Just left to get on with it because conventional hrt (E with P) doesn't fit.
It's definitely more common in parts of Europe and the US to treat with just progesterone. Through all my research, it looks pretty safe. Certainly safer than estrogen.
Keep us updated. X
Hi there - now stick with me because this may seem counter intuitive but I don't do well on 100 mg Utrogestan at all - it makes me insanely anxious and agitated. But! I am ok on 200mg. Apparently there's a bimodal thing with dosage where too little and too much are equally bad. Lara Briden writes about it on her website.
Anyway I just thought I would share
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I've seen it LC1962.
Yes, the anxiety is hellish. It's not my worst symptom though - I get poisioned from high estrogen. My own. It's awful.
By all means speak to your GP. But just remember you have found something that works. If they offer you alternatives - you'll need to weigh it up. Personally I'd keep buying from France. But then, I've been through 2 years of prog trials and still not sorted. And, as gnatty highlights, she's taking utro in a random fashion.
100mg utro in one hit tends to be too big. Certainly was for me.
And, unfortunately, I've found the NHS, including specialist meno clinic absolutely in the dark about low prog. Instead they just encourage me to take more estrogen 😞. I've had to pay a lot of money to a bhrt clinic to learn about this.
Mary G takes Prog gel as part of her hrt. She might be along with some info. Not sure if it's the same one.
I am so pleased if you. You're story sounds horrific and, if I'm being honest, very similar to my own. Just left to get on with it because conventional hrt (E with P) doesn't fit.
It's definitely more common in parts of Europe and the US to treat with just progesterone. Through all my research, it looks pretty safe. Certainly safer than estrogen.
Keep us updated. X
The oestrogen pushing is real! I once ended up on four pumps of gel (very briefly) and I was INSANE.
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I am so glad I’ve found this thread. I haven’t posted on here for a while as feeling like I have nothing to add but I’m always reading.
I’ve been on HRT various doses for almost 2 years and just feel like nothing is helping. My main symptom being depression, just feel cloaked in black mist on far too many days. Oh god yes and the morning dread, it usually gets better through the day but sometimes doesn’t.
I’m on 150mg of Sertraline (AD) and have been for ages and I feel like I may as well be taking sugar pills as they have no affect. I’ve given up asking my GP for advice as they have been no help so I research the hell out of everything and try different things. I take so many vitamins and I’ve been on high does of oestrogen and low and nothing is helping. I take 100mg Utrogestan every night. Thinking back to when I first started HRT I was on Evorel Conti patches and I always felt better on the progesterone part in the latter 2 weeks. I couldn’t find anyone else who felt the same so thought I was just imagining things.
I was literally just googling and looking into whether I may need more progesterone and came across this thread and actually feel some hope. It did cross my mind whether I could take 200mg of Utro a night, I am currently on 3 pumps of oestrogel.
Anyway I’m waffling on now, but wondering if I should try this progesterone gel as well as continuing with 100mg utro a night. Any advice would be gratefully received. I’m having such a rough few days and just need some hope xx
I take 200mg a day and my specialist was fine with that. I don't tolerate 100mg at all.
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Hi Katyh
Wow. Thanks so much for that info. So are you saying you only take 200mg utro??? No estrogen??? Do you take utro all month with no breaks?
Yes, I've read Lara's take on low versus high dose - and those in-between. But I've been at this so long, I've tried both low dose and high dose 🙄
What type of specialist do you see??
This is very interesting. I'm currently back on bhrt progesterone cream. It helps my symptoms of low prog - like pms and migraines. But I'm sooooo aggitated and anxious. All month.
Yet, I do recall when previously taking this same cream, at 50mg I was very calm.
So it's in the back of my mind that i need 50mg.
But. The big but is, the more progesterone I take the more my estrogen pumps out. Out of tissues, receptors become more sensitive, or p coverts - I've no idea. But it's horrific. I'm really bad at the moment, along with the anxiety on top. So I was going to ride at 30mg for consistency as there is a narrative that this initial stimulation should calm with consistent dosing. I assumed you did not experience this?
So I will continue as I am into my second cycle. But I really appreciate your comments as I was wondering how the lady that started this post is on about 20mg and nice and calm, yet I'm a jittery mess at 30mg.
Unfortunately utrogestan is not for me. Tried it. Far too severe sedation. Tried vaginally too...caused immense stomach distress.
Xx
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I've been on just a 200mg progesterone daily before but it just made me very flat so I came off it after a couple of months.
I'm now in induced menopause for extreme sensitivity to fluctuations so I need to take some oestrogen but can only tolerate 50.
I'm losing hope!
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I don't like Utrogestan and I don't think it is a well tolerated form of progesterone and it's the most debated problem on here by far. God knows what it is but there is something horrible about that stuff and it's worth noting that you don't have to be progesterone intolerant to have problems with it.
My advice is to find something else. I like the Darstin gel but that is only suitable for women on a low dose of oestrogen post menopause. There is Cyclogest which is better tolerated or Crinone vaginal gel or you might need to take the compounded route.
Hello Mary G
Yesterday I asked my GP change Utrogestan for any other progesterone and she refused to do that, just because in my age not possible to prescribe me synthetic progesterone, it’s too risky, utrogestan is the only micronised progesterone available from NHS, I felt too fed up and asked her to refer me to meno clinic, so she did.
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Mary G and AngelaH, there is a good US group on Facebook called Estrogen Dominance Group if you haven't come across it before. It has a very large following, you will be believed on there. I left a few years ago, but one progesterone product they recommended was a natural one called Onas. I found the group very helpful.
Hello Penguin,
Thank you for info. I have ordered some product, I am afraid NHS left me with no choice but use unlicensed product until I can get appointment with meno clinic.
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LC1962, your progesterone gel sounds similar to the Darstin progesterone gel that I buy from the pharmacy in Spain. It's very good stuff.
Would you telling telling us more about your gel like the strength etc?
My apologies. I have been away for a few days and have not been on the forum.
The gel I get is from France. Progestogel 1mg. Each 2.5g of gel contains 0.025g of progesterone. It looks like your Darstin gel is 10mg? So the one I use is very weak
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Great info Mary
What would the dose be that LC1962 is taking that has calmed her anxiety???
I'm retrying compounded P cream, but my anxiety is problematic.
X
Hi. Currently I am measuring out 2.5g on the little tool that comes with the gel. (This actually measure 8cm of product). So that’s 5g daily, not 20g as someone else said. :) Each 2.5g contains 0.025g of progesterone. I then apply one measurement each on the inside of my thighs or arms. I don’t rub it in completely as it is supposed to soak in naturally if possible.
I am surprised that such a minimal amount is working…but it really is. I feel so much better!
I also should add the only other thing I take is a Lions Mane Mushroom supplement (for hair loss) but that isn’t indicated as helpful with anxiety…
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Thanks all for the support and encouragement! Oooh, I didn’t even think perhaps could NOT get this gel in the UK on the NHS. It’s used in France, available over the counter for breast pain. 2.5cm gel, it comes with a measuring scoop, so one measurement on the inside of each thigh. I don’t rub it in well as it’s supposed to work better if naturally absorbed. It’s called Progestogel, and I found it here.
https://moncoinsante.com/mcs/en/various-medications/11140-progestogel-1-tube-80g-for-targeted-areas-applicator-3400931314127.html
Hi LC1962. I have received my gel, I bought it from the pharmacy you recommended, I’ve had it for a week now but have been putting off using it (no idea why) I am on 100mg Utro daily but feel it’s not enough so wanted to add the gel in too. Anyway I just wanted to ask when you apply the gel, do you at night or morning? Thanks
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Hello ladies.
I am following your stories with interest as I have had very little luck with HRT over the years.
I am 67 and very post meno with my problems only really beginning three years after my last period. As with everyone I was told that I needed more and more Oestrogen and less and less progesterone. I have been on up to six pumps of Oestrogel with 100mcg of Utrogestan vaginally on alternate nights. I also used testosterone for a while. I have had times when I have felt back to normal and completely calm but it never lasts and I then feel panicky and flushy. My moods change as well and I am exhausted from being on this rollercoaster ride.
Currently I am using 1mcg of Sandrena gel every day plus a Cyclogest pessary on alternate nights to provide the progesterone.
Perhaps I have been needing more prog all this time? Who knows? Certainly no one in the medical profession so far.
I would say ladies that a few years ago I came off all HRT and reduced my prog before I reduced my Oestrogen meaning that I was using Oestrogen only for a few weeks before stopping altogether. Several symptoms returned after a few weeks namely night sweats, hot flushes, much increased vaginal dryness and crying spells. My GP suggested a return to HRT so I went back to using the gel.
I mention the above because it may give you an idea of what can happen in post meno after years of HRT.
Take care ladies and I wish you all well.
K.
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Hi Kathleen
I was always led to believe that I needed more oestrogen to help with my depression, at one time I was on a Evorel 75 patch and 2 pumps of gel so in total 125, this much sent me spiralling even further so I gradually reduced to 50 (2 pumps) which I’m on now, it doesn’t really help that much, although thankfully not in the state I was in when on a high dose.
I do feel that progesterone is always made out to be the bad hormone but just shows we’re all different.
Thanks for sharing your experience and I wish you well too x
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While reading this thread I've been wondering about the absorption of the progesterone gel.
If progesterone can be absorbed through the skin, then would it be feasible to cut open a Utrogestan capsule and spread the contents on the thighs, wait the half hour then wash it off again?
With the aim to lessen side effects or to adjust the dose.
I've not tried it, is it thick or waxy inside those capsules? If so then it would be too much trouble, but if it's like a cream?
Anyone tried?
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The progesterone gel is only absorbed locally because it is supposed to act locally (breasts), while to protect the womb you need systemic (oral), or local (vaginal) absorption. Don't ask me if it would protect the womb if rubbed in the skin nearby ;D
It could be done because the progesterone inside the capsule is dissolved in oil. :-*
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While reading this thread I've been wondering about the absorption of the progesterone gel.
If progesterone can be absorbed through the skin, then would it be feasible to cut open a Utrogestan capsule and spread the contents on the thighs, wait the half hour then wash it off again?
With the aim to lessen side effects or to adjust the dose.
I've not tried it, is it thick or waxy inside those capsules? If so then it would be too much trouble, but if it's like a cream?
Anyone tried?
pastiesupper
I'm not sure if you meant to use it for this purpose, but to avoid any confusion for anyone reading this, asbsolutely the micronised progesterone in utrogestan capsules CANNOT be spread on the body to provide the progestogenic protection to the womb. It won't do you any harm but won't do what it is supposed to.
Creams and gels that are applied to the skin are produced so that the active ingredient is contained in specific fillers to aid absorption and the micronised progesterone suspension in utrogestan capsules is designed to be released when the outer layer of the caspule is dissolved either by digestion or by vaginal fluids.
Even progesterone creams that are designed to be applied to the skins, cannot and should not be used for progestogenic protection as part of hRT because firstly the products available on the open market are not standardised or regulated, and also absorption is inconsistent.
Products should only be used in the way they were designed - if they are being used for the purpose for which they were designed.....
Hope this clarifies....
Hurdity x
PS I am just answering this specific post and haven't read the rest of the thread!
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This Topic is not about the role of progesterone in protecting the womb, but about forgotten by NHS the role of progesterone in general in the women body. Just like estrogen, progesterone is important for the brain, bones, muscle…. Some women need estrogen to fix the problems in their bodies, but some need just progesterone.
I did not try to use Utrogestan on skin, really don’t need to do that because it helps to ease my symptoms by taking it in the way it should be taken.
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AngelaH, I was just replying to pastie supper :) I agree that progesterone is an important hormone for peri and postmenopausal women, including women who had oophorectomy. Even though it is primarily a gestational hormone, it has been around our entire lives, so withdrawal symptoms are bound to occur in some of us, after all progesterone is a powerful neuromodulator :-*
Regarding Utrogestan... yes, it should be used for what it was designed for, although it was originally designed to be used vaginally in the treatment of fertility disorders and to prevent miscarriages and recurrent spontaneous abortions, the off-label use for menopause has become somewhat 'official' now, it's a fluid reality. ;)
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This Topic is not about the role of progesterone in protecting the womb, but about forgotten by NHS the role of progesterone in general in the women body. Just like estrogen, progesterone is important for the brain, bones, muscle…. Some women need estrogen to fix the problems in their bodies, but some need just progesterone.
I did not try to use Utrogestan on skin, really don’t need to do that because it helps to ease my symptoms by taking it in the way it should be taken.
Hi AngelaH
My post was directed at pastiesupper who asked a question about spreading the micronised suspension from the utrogestan capsule on her skin and my comments about absorption still stand ie it is not designed to be spread on the skin and as such won't be absorbed in this way. In addition the comments about endometrial protection are there as a caution for anyone who might pick up on this, like me, without reading the rest of the thread, and be tempted to try this method as the progestogen component of HRT. ( I haven't read the rest of the thread...)
I agree that progesterone is an important hormone for peri and postmenopausal women, including women who had oophorectomy. Even though it is primarily a gestational hormone, it has been around our entire lives, so withdrawal symptoms are bound to occur in some of us, after all progesterone is a powerful neuromodulator :-*
Sage I don't know what you mean by withdrawal symptoms? Who gets withdrawal symptoms from progesterone? All post-menopausal women? Progesterone is still produced post-menopause in the small quantities that are needed for physiological functioning, but of course not in the amounts needed for pregnancy, but these quantities are only needed for pregnancy as you say.
Hurdity x
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Hurdity,
Progesterone reference ranges:
Follicular: < 5.0nmol/L.
Luteal: 3.5 – 67 nmol/L.
Post-menopause: < 4.4nmol/L.
Pregnancy 1st trimester: 35.62 to 286.20 nmol/L.
Pregnancy 2nd trimester: 81.41 to 284.29 nmol/L.
Pregnancy 3rd trimester: 152.64 to 477 to 954 or more nmol/L.
Oestradiol reference ranges:
Children: Less than 130 pmol/L
Males: Less than 146 pmol/L
Females:
Follicular: 72 – 529 pmol/L
Ovulatory: 235 – 1309 pmol/L
Luteal: 205 – 786 pmol/L
Post-menopause: Less than 118 pmol/L
If low oestradiol levels in menopause, which are measured in pmol/L can cause withdrawal symptoms, why not progesterone levels in the nmol/L range, which are 1,000 higher than pmol/L?
The highest oestradiol level is around 1309 pmol/L = 1.31 nmol/L.
We have been exposed to up to 67 nmol/L of progesterone during four decades (or much more if pregnant) and then it drops to < 4.4 nmol/L and this won’t have any effect? I don’t think so, but I stand to be corrected.
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Even though it is primarily a gestational hormone, it has been around our entire lives, so withdrawal symptoms are bound to occur in some of us, after all progesterone is a powerful neuromodulator :-*
Regarding Utrogestan... yes, it should be used for what it was designed for, although it was originally designed to be used vaginally in the treatment of fertility disorders and to prevent miscarriages and recurrent spontaneous abortions, the off-label use for menopause has become somewhat 'official' now, it's a fluid reality. ;)
And estradiol has the main function to mature and then maintain the reproductive system, but it doesn’t prevent us from using it in HRT even if reproductive function is completely stopped - menopause and post. Simply because both sex hormones regulate various non-reproductive functions in the body as well.
And Mirena coil originally was invented for preventing pregnancy, but now it is used for other different proposals (where progesterone is needed) including HRT.
So this is not about name of medication, this is about its active ingredient - progesterone, Utrogestan is progesterone, there is nothing surprising in the fact that it’s used now for HRT.
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Progesterone is still produced post-menopause in the small quantities that are needed for physiological functioning,
Hurdity x
I am afraid but it’s not the case, the body in post menopause still produces some amount of weak form of estrogen, but not progesterone. In peri progesterone falls quicker than estrogen and this is why usually the low progesterone causes problems. NHS doctors don’t really pay attention to that and this is why so many ladies are suffering for nothing.
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Thanks all for the support and encouragement! Oooh, I didn’t even think perhaps could NOT get this gel in the UK on the NHS. It’s used in France, available over the counter for breast pain. 2.5cm gel, it comes with a measuring scoop, so one measurement on the inside of each thigh. I don’t rub it in well as it’s supposed to work better if naturally absorbed. It’s called Progestogel, and I found it here.
https://moncoinsante.com/mcs/en/various-medications/11140-progestogel-1-tube-80g-for-targeted-areas-applicator-3400931314127.html
Hi LC1962. I have received my gel, I bought it from the pharmacy you recommended, I’ve had it for a week now but have been putting off using it (no idea why) I am on 100mg Utro daily but feel it’s not enough so wanted to add the gel in too. Anyway I just wanted to ask when you apply the gel, do you at night or morning? Thanks
Sorry for late reply. I always apply first thing in the morning. It’s maybe all in my head
/placebo at such a small dose but I really feel it is helping my crippling morning anxiety. It is supposed to help with sleep and I know some people prefer applying at night but thankfully I don’t have any problems sleeping.
I’m still feeling the benefit of this and it definitely works well for me.
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"We have been exposed to up to 67 nmol/L of progesterone during four decades (or much more if pregnant) and then it drops to < 4.4 nmol/L and this won’t have any effect? I don’t think so, but I stand to be corrected."
Sage - it doesn't work like that - not as withdrawal as such but looking at the quantities. We have been exposed to progesterone in preparation for and during our pregnancies and as I said it is produced in large quantities for that purpose only. Progesterone withdrawal is a distinct phenomenon which occurs late on in the menstrual cycle just before a period - and is a component of pms - a reversal of the temporary physiological changes that take place in the body when it increases, until the progesterone has been metabolised away and your body returns to its normal state. Some of these processes are described on the web but are quite technical!
Hurdity x
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Progesterone is still produced post-menopause in the small quantities that are needed for physiological functioning,
Hurdity x
I am afraid but it’s not the case, the body in post menopause still produces some amount of weak form of estrogen, but not progesterone. In peri progesterone falls quicker than estrogen and this is why usually the low progesterone causes problems. NHS doctors don’t really pay attention to that and this is why so many ladies are suffering for nothing.
And I am afraid that what your saying is not the case! The information can be found on the web - eg see the Wikipedia entry for progesterone which gives the levels at various stages (scroll down to levels and ranges which gives you the tables). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone . Of course, the levels are much lower and the tests used to measure are designed to test for much large amounts so are not accuraate at low levels.
The pro-progesterone lobby will have us believe we have none and therefore need to buy it to restore balance or something, but that is untrue - we continue to make it. A while back I did look into the post-menopausal production of it but can't remember where now, sorry. The biosynthesis of steroid hormones is well-documented and there are several pathways.
If there is conclusive evidence from trials that we benefit from its replacement post-menopause, even for those who don't have a womb, then I would be interested to read it.
Hurdity x
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"We have been exposed to up to 67 nmol/L of progesterone during four decades (or much more if pregnant) and then it drops to < 4.4 nmol/L and this won’t have any effect? I don’t think so, but I stand to be corrected."
Sage - it doesn't work like that - not as withdrawal as such but looking at the quantities. We have been exposed to progesterone in preparation for and during our pregnancies and as I said it is produced in large quantities for that purpose only. Progesterone withdrawal is a distinct phenomenon which occurs late on in the menstrual cycle just before a period - and is a component of pms - a reversal of the temporary physiological changes that take place in the body when it increases, until the progesterone has been metabolised away and your body returns to its normal state. Some of these processes are described on the web but are quite technical!
Hurdity x
Hurdity. Totally correct - the withdrawal of P (or lack of it) is responsible for pms. Cyclogest is licenced to treat severe pms.
So, this being the case, why do you believe P has no role to play, other than endometrial protection? Clearly many woman are deficient in progesterone, especially moving through peri as it declines first.
I am very curious as to why you are so anti progesterone (apart from uterus protection)?
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I haven't gog time to sit and look for 'scientific' papers on the need and/or benefits of progesterone in peri and meno.
This is given no thought in the NHS. So perhaps there are no papers, in UK.
However, this is a huge event in the US and Europe.
Take a look at this Canadian website - there are plenty of papers linked https://www.cemcor.ca/resources/progesterone-therapy-menopause (https://www.cemcor.ca/resources/progesterone-therapy-menopause). Probably not from UK, but I dont believe science only comes from the UK 🤔. Science only delivers answers on the things that are researched. Often big pharma plays a role in what is researched ;)
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I agree with you CrispyChick. Progesterone during menopause is really not given the attention it deserves. Oestrogen just seems to be pushed all the time and progesterone is seen to be just taken to protect the lining of the womb.
I for one have started to realise that I don’t need hrt oestrogen, or at least tiny amounts and I’m definitely pro progesterone. Oestrogen has never helped me, I’ve tried various doses and different methods and my mental health has just been awful. For almost a week now I have ditched the oestrogel but continue to take utrogestan and I finally feel a bit more stable.
Progesterone plays a huge role in mental health and I know it isn’t for everyone, but as we all know we are all different.
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InterestingTori. I assume you are peri?? Keep us updated on how you get on.
No, prog isn't for everyone (especially in NHS doses) and I'm still struggling to find my magic dose. But god, progesterone, or no progesterone, high estrogen can cause carnage in peri. it makes me mad that the only thing offered to me on the NHS through this peri hell has been combined hrt. The estrogen just compounded my problem. If I dont need estrogen, the NHS can offer me nothing.
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I really relate to your difficulties with oestrogen (mind also extend to progesterone but there we are!)
I'm now in chemical menopause due to the severity of my mood symptoms from fluctuating levels in peri - interestingly my worst time was days 4-11 in my cycle when oestrogen is theoretically increasing.
The last time I tried it I felt great for just over a week and then became suicidally depressed. I hung on for three more weeks to see if it passed - it didn't. It persisted even when I stopped the Utrogestan under medical advice and resolved only after I stopped the oestrogen.
M
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Just a wee update.
I am getting on brilliantly with supplemental progesterone. I ran out of Progestogel, so I have started on Pro-Gest from iHerb, which does not smell of alcohol and is a cream you can use on your face. It is not my imagination, but I just look so much better! It makes my face all glowy in the morning. I don’t think you can overdose on topical prog. This is the cream the famous Dr Lee recommends.
I am also convinced my brain chemicals were completely screwed up over the years. Closely tied to hormonal changes. I never ever had any motivation or joy….my life was just so miserable for years and years and years. Utterly depressed and anxious ALL the time. I read somewhere about B vitamins helping anxiety and increasing dopamine…so I also started taking a supplemental B vitamins. Thyamine, B12, Biotin and Folic. Honestly, I’m a different person. At 62, I’m waking up exited about the day, motivated, looking forward to the future. I’ve stopped drinking wine to escape. It’s life changing. I’ve no idea what actually helped but I’m not stopping any of it. Still taking the Prozac although it does nothing.
Honestly…my life is so much better.
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No, prog isn't for everyone (especially in NHS doses) and I'm still struggling to find my magic dose. But god, progesterone, or no progesterone, high estrogen can cause carnage in peri. it makes me mad that the only thing offered to me on the NHS through this peri hell has been combined hrt. The estrogen just compounded my problem. If I dont need estrogen, the NHS can offer me nothing.
It’s all about balance between progesterone and estrogen, both hormones should be properly balanced, so some of us are needed progesterone to be added and some of us estrogen. I just realised how lucky I was in peri, my GP was German and she was educated in Germany, this is why she didn’t prescribe me estrogen in peri, it would simply kill me. I don’t know why NHS rewrites anatomy and makes it different from the rest of the Word. I only can guess it’s all about finances.
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Just a wee update.
I am getting on brilliantly with supplemental progesterone.
LC1962, thank you for updating, I used one of progesterone creams for face as well. For the last couple of years I had brown spots appeared on my face, looked very similar to pregnancy spots and progesterone cream got rid of them. They were definitely hormonal spots.
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LC1962 I am really struggling so appreciate the update!
AngelaH which cream are you using please? my skin is getting worse with the brown spots to add to the myriad of symptoms.