Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Crow Lady on June 14, 2023, 01:03:08 PM
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For the last few weeks I've been very achey. I don't know if it's anything to do with menopause or not. Doc dropped my estraderm patches from 100 down to 50 because the 100s were causing me to bleed ( they checked it out ). The bleeding stopped. Pretty much straight away I got some symptoms back that I suffered with before I started hrt just over a year ago - terrible palpitations, anxiety etc. So I upped the patches to 75s. Palpitations and anxiety stopped but I'm shattered 24/7. My arms and legs are aching all the time, above and below my elbows, and my knees, calf muscles and ankles. I feel like I have no strength in my arms and my legs feel like they're only just holding me up. Is this a menopause thing? I am so sick of feeling like crap. I feel 101, not 51. I can't go on like this.
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Could well be hormonal. It may be that 75 is too much every night, hopefully some1 will be along with advice: or you can type the product names into the search box : individually : to see what threads pop up. Make notes ;-)
Have U had your VitD levels checked recently? Also, I had restless leg syndrome from a very young age which was cured by eating small bananas daily = 4 me, lack of potassium.
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I've had so many tests done I can't keep up with it all. My hrt review is 8 weeks away. I just feel so crap. I'm aching, I can't lose the extra weight, I feel totally listless and overwhelmed. My anxiety is coming back a bit too.
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Hello Crow Lady. I am so sorry to hear what a difficult time you are having. It is like you are stuck between, either bleeding or having aches and pains. It is a horrible situation for you. I know when my oestrogen is low I get terrible pain in my joints. Before I started HRT I thought I had arthritis due to how painful it was.
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I definitely felt better when I was on the estraderm 100s. But then I start bleeding, it's quite heavy and lasts a couple of weeks, every month. The Oestrogel makes me ill so I can't take that. The doc said he doesn't think there's anything else to try. He's been great but I think he's right, what else can I do ? The thought of the anxiety and palpitations coming back is terrifying.
Hello Crow Lady. I am so sorry to hear what a difficult time you are having. It is like you are stuck between, either bleeding or having aches and pains. It is a horrible situation for you. I know when my oestrogen is low I get terrible pain in my joints. Before I started HRT I thought I had arthritis due to how painful it was.
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Have u had a VitD and thyroid function blood test recently? Might be worth while getting it down a couple of weeks B4 your next review.
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It's not long since I had them done.
Have u had a VitD and thyroid function blood test recently? Might be worth while getting it down a couple of weeks B4 your next review.
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I do not know if you have already tried the other oestrogen patches. Evorel and Estradot. I wonder if they are worth a try. You may find it helpful to ask your GP to refer you to an NHS menopause clinic as they will be more knowledgeable.
I know there is a medication for women with heavy periods which help to reduce the bleeding. I am not sure if that would be a possibility.
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I'm ringing the doc in the morning, I can't go another 2 months like this.
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I'm ringing the doc in the morning, I can't go another 2 months like this.
I hope your appointment goes well. I will be thinking of you.
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Crow lady if you had good symptom control at 100, then that's what you need and it's the progesterone which needs to be increased somehow to prevent the bleeding and build up.
Reducing estrogen is insane (unless it's last resort) because that's what you need for the symptoms.
If you're on utrogestan, you can increase it either to 3x capsules sequentially or 2x capsules continuously. You can have a Mirena coil. You can have the coil AND take utrogestan. You can take utrogestan and the POP. There are loads of options for increasing progesterone so you can remain on 100 estrogen.
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Morning. Let us know how you get on?
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Just spoke to the nurse practitioner, she's upped my estraderm patches back to 100s and said I can increase the 100mg utrogestan to 200mg a night which should in theory stop the bleeding the higher level patches caused before. She also checked my records and said I haven't had my vitD or calcium levels checked so they're booked for a couple of weeks time. Keep your fingers crossed for me!
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That sounds like a very good plan. Hopefully the increase in progesterone will prevent the bleeding you had previously.
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Hi there.
Not been around here for a while but read your message and wanted to reply as I had the same with the aching.
My shoulders and arms (occasionally legs) were constantly in pain. I felt like I’d aged 30 years or even like there was some kind of virus attacking my body! I’m On 100 estrogen patches and 100 Utrogestan (12 days).
Still had the pain until my dr prescribed testosterone. Aching has almost completely gone (still get the odd ache here and there but nothing compared to what it was like)!
Also energy levels have increased dramatically and sleep is so much better. I’m having to pay privately for the testosterone and it’s not cheap but it’s worth it for me!
Hope that might help x
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Sounds good Crow Lady. If 200mg of utrogestan continuously doesn't help, you can add in the mini pill (desogestrel) as well. This is totally legit because lots of peri women need contraception and they are often on desogestrel as well as HRT for that reason. So it is kosher. Usually desogestrel totally stops all bleeding. So if you really don't want the coil, that would be your next option.
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Crow Lady - let us know how you get on.
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Hi Crow Lady,
It’s low progesterone in relation to the level of oestrogen which causes joint/muscle pain. Hopefully increasing your progesterone to 200mg continuously will solve your problem.
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I upped the dose of utrogestan from 100 to 200 last night. I'm a bad sleeper and last night was pretty much the same as usual. But today I've been shattered all morning and I've slept all afternoon. Is that normal because obviously I can't just sleep my days away! I feel like a zombie.
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I sure wish it had that effect on me ;D I'd give it a few weeks and see if you get used to it. But it can have that effect for some people. If it continues, you could drop back to 100mg utrogestan and add in the mini-pill (desogestrel).
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I wouldn't have minded if I'd slept during the night. But I've been an exhausted zombie all day.
I sure wish it had that effect on me ;D I'd give it a few weeks and see if you get used to it. But it can have that effect for some people. If it continues, you could drop back to 100mg utrogestan and add in the mini-pill (desogestrel).
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I only had one utrogestan last night. Didn't want to be a zombie again when I had to go out and do the shopping. I felt so out of it yesterday, is that normal? Or should I split the dose, 1 on a morning, 1 on a night ? I upped the estraderm patches from 75 to 100 yesterday and I feel sick and panicky today.
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Sick and panicky? As in anxiety? That’s too much oestrogen/too low progesterone. I think I would stick to the same thing for at least a week and probably longer. I know it’s easy to panic and expect everything to be perfect immediately (or the very next day at the least), but even antibiotics take a few days to work their magic. Same goes for HRT. It helped me to keep a symptom chart (diaries and journals require extra work, whereas a cross in a box against the relevant symptom on the relevant day takes seconds), which quickly and visually showed a pattern to my symptoms. I did this for 3 months to get a full picture and then my Doctor knew exactly what to change in my HRT. It took about a week for my body to adjust to 200 mg utrogestan at night. For the first few days I had an afternoon nap, then I didn’t need one and after a week I had so much energy I was unstoppable. Plus, it’s really hot and humid at the moment which is so tiring.
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It may be too much too soon ............ so the body reacts.
I sleep most afternoons and I'm not on HRT : I have no choice, I'm gone ! :-\
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Do you mean stick to the 100s patches and 200 utrogestan?
Sick and panicky? As in anxiety? That’s too much oestrogen/too low progesterone. I think I would stick to the same thing for at least a week and probably longer. I know it’s easy to panic and expect everything to be perfect immediately (or the very next day at the least), but even antibiotics take a few days to work their magic. Same goes for HRT. It helped me to keep a symptom chart (diaries and journals require extra work, whereas a cross in a box against the relevant symptom on the relevant day takes seconds), which quickly and visually showed a pattern to my symptoms. I did this for 3 months to get a full picture and then my Doctor knew exactly what to change in my HRT. It took about a week for my body to adjust to 200 mg utrogestan at night. For the first few days I had an afternoon nap, then I didn’t need one and after a week I had so much energy I was unstoppable. Plus, it’s really hot and humid at the moment which is so tiring.
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I wouldn't be changing both your progesterone and estrogen at the same time if you're trying to sort something out. I thought your problems were with bleeding? In which case, it's the progesterone you need to get right, not changing the estrogen.
Lowering your progesterone and increasing your estrogen is a surefire way to encourage even more breakthrough bleeding.
If you don't want to take 200mg of utrogestan, you need to go back to your GP and request something else. It will be either adding in the POP/desogestrel or the Mirena coil.
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The doc (not my usual one ) knocked me down from 100s estraderm because they were causing bleeding. But my meno symptoms came back so a different doc decided to up the patches back to 100s, and up the utrogestan from 100 to 200.
I wouldn't be changing both your progesterone and estrogen at the same time if you're trying to sort something out. I thought your problems were with bleeding? In which case, it's the progesterone you need to get right, not changing the estrogen.
Lowering your progesterone and increasing your estrogen is a surefire way to encourage even more breakthrough bleeding.
If you don't want to take 200mg of utrogestan, you need to go back to your GP and request something else. It will be either adding in the POP/desogestrel or the Mirena coil.
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Yesterday was horrendous. I felt really nauseous all day, heart was bouncing, had a panic attack. I took the 100 patch off last night. Felt so sick I didn't have any of my tablets at bedtime as I would have thrown them straight back up. I don't know what to do. I had the 100 patches before, they didn't make me ill like that. If anyone can help I would really appreciate it.
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I am so sorry you had such a bad night. Do you think it is possible the heat had an effect on you? Am I right in thinking you have gone from a 75 to 100 patch?
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I went from 75s to 100s patches on Friday afternoon. I've had them before and didn't react like that, I remember I felt a bit grotty for a few days but nothing like I did yesterday. Not sure about the heat, I keep out of it as much as possible. I'll ring the doc tomorrow but I don't know what to do today. I don't really want to put a 100 patch on. I've got 75s left.
I am so sorry you had such a bad night. Do you think it is possible the heat had an effect on you? Am I right in thinking you have gone from a 75 to 100 patch?
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I went from 75s to 100s patches on Friday afternoon. I've had them before and didn't react like that, I remember I felt a bit grotty for a few days but nothing like I did yesterday. Not sure about the heat, I keep out of it as much as possible. I'll ring the doc tomorrow but I don't know what to do today. I don't really want to put a 100 patch on. I've got 75s left.
I am so sorry you had such a bad night. Do you think it is possible the heat had an effect on you? Am I right in thinking you have gone from a 75 to 100 patch?
I am very sensitive to any medication changes and if I need to increase my patch I have always had to cut a bit off rather then going up by the full 25. Rather then increase to 100 perhaps you could do something in between 75 and 100. This is what I have always done.
Although you are keeping out the heat if your home is hot this could also be making you feel a bit unwell. It is okay not to put a 100 patch on. You do not have to do anything you are uncomfortable with.
I am very sorry you are having such a difficult time. I know how upsetting that is.
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It's the mental health side of it all that terrifies me. I've been on antidepressants for 20 years. I was always frightened of starting menopause in case it triggered the panic attacks. I was starting to have anxiety, palpitations, mood swings etc just before the doc told me I was in menopause 14 months ago. Starting hrt knocked all that on the head, but I'm struggling to get the balance right. When i was on 100s patches at the back end of last year and the first couple of months of this year i felt pretty good but it made me have quite heavy bleeding. Dropping to 75s stopped the bleeding but I wasn't feeling great and I could hardly move with the aches and pains.
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Hi Crow Lady,
I understand the anxiety, palpitations, panic attacks only too well. My GP was lovely but admitted he wasn’t a menopause expert. It was so bad my husband made an appointment at Newson Health, drove me there, handed me over along with his credit card and asked them to sort me out. An hour later and having sobbed my way through several boxes of tissues, I emerged with a plan, a prescription and most of all (for my anxiety), I felt heard and understood, and I understood what was happening to me. It was probably the best £220.00 we’ve ever spent. I don’t know if you’re in a position to do something similar, but if you can, for your mental health, it’s worth every penny.
I’m sorry you feel so awful.
Ermin x
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It's the mental health side of it all that terrifies me. I've been on antidepressants for 20 years. I was always frightened of starting menopause in case it triggered the panic attacks. I was starting to have anxiety, palpitations, mood swings etc just before the doc told me I was in menopause 14 months ago. Starting hrt knocked all that on the head, but I'm struggling to get the balance right. When i was on 100s patches at the back end of last year and the first couple of months of this year i felt pretty good but it made me have quite heavy bleeding. Dropping to 75s stopped the bleeding but I wasn't feeling great and I could hardly move with the aches and pains.
I understand. It is always a worry when mental health is triggered. You are not alone so please know you can post on here any time.
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How was your mental health during your menstruating years prior to peri? I was very low in the 24 hours prior to a bleed even when a period wasn't due. Also had PAINFUL++ periods :'( every month.
Low oestrogen can cause aches and pains because muscles may become lax. Do U take pain relief?
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I haven't been taking anything for pain relief.
Definitely knew when my period was due ! I started taking sertraline just before my son turned 1, ( hes almost 20 now ). I had started having massive anxiety and panic attacks, the sertraline sorted it out. A few times over the years I've almost come off them, slowly decreased to a minimum dose but then I'd get stressed out and would end up putting the dose up again , with the docs advice. I don't handle stress well at all, and unfortunately I've a lot of it in my life, that I can't change.
How was your mental health during your menstruating years prior to peri? I was very low in the 24 hours prior to a bleed even when a period wasn't due. Also had PAINFUL++ periods :'( every month.
Low oestrogen can cause aches and pains because muscles may become lax. Do U take pain relief?
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Crow Lady... a few thoughts!
Are you on testosterone? I wonder if you could try staying at 75 patches and adding in testosterone? Aches and joint pains are one of the things T is supposed to be good for. Joint pain was one of my pre-HRT symptoms and has completely resolved now. I did start testosterone at the same time as estrogen, because that's what Newson Health do, so I'm not sure which hormone resolved it for sure. But I'm only on 2 pumps of gel which isn't a high E dose. Perhaps you don't need an estrogen increase at all, you are just low on T?
The other idea is what Flossieteacake says, which is not to go to 100 but to 87.5 - which is splitting the difference. I always did that on patches. What patches do you have? Just 75s and 100? It might be hard to consistently do that without asking for some 25 patches - which you can cut in half to make 12.5 any time you want to increase.
The symptoms you describe happening after an increase are a 'too high estrogen' or 'too suddenly raised' estrogen side effects to me. I recognise those well. Try not to be anxious because it's not your mood or mental state causing this, it's your hormones and HRT causing a physiological response which you experience as anxiety - but it's not, it's physical, as a cause. (Of course then we get worried about it and that makes it worse, but fundamentally it's physical.)
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Anxiety hits without warning. Gut feels off, thighs go weak followed by calves and I hit the floor.
Is the Sertraline for anxiety or depression? If it's worked in the past then it may be that your hormones are over riding the dose, R U able to increase or maybe add a different anti-anxiety medication?
I have used Bachs rescue remedy mouth spray with success about 20 mins prior to an event: 2 quirts on2 my tongue and don't think about whether it will/not work. I've never needed another dose in that day. Relaxation therapy has helped: when I could find time to practice ::)
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The doc tested my testosterone levels last August. I had no detectable levels ! He put me on testegel for 2 months and I was really poorly the whole time, really nauseous, a heavy feeling and grotty. After 2 months he checked my levels and they were double what they should have been! He stopped it straight away. And i started feeling better 24 hours later.
I think my T levels were done earlier this year, they were OK as far as I know. Wonder if it's worth asking to get them checked again soon, because I'm not due another review for 2 months.
I do have 50s patches so I could try the 87s. I haven't had a patch on since last night. I still feel a bit crappy and anxious so I'll just put a 75 on tonight. I'm dreading putting it on.
Crow Lady... a few thoughts!
Are you on testosterone? I wonder if you could try staying at 75 patches and adding in testosterone? Aches and joint pains are one of the things T is supposed to be good for. Joint pain was one of my pre-HRT symptoms and has completely resolved now. I did start testosterone at the same time as estrogen, because that's what Newson Health do, so I'm not sure which hormone resolved it for sure. But I'm only on 2 pumps of gel which isn't a high E dose. Perhaps you don't need an estrogen increase at all, you are just low on T?
The other idea is what Flossieteacake says, which is not to go to 100 but to 87.5 - which is splitting the difference. I always did that on patches. What patches do you have? Just 75s and 100? It might be hard to consistently do that without asking for some 25 patches - which you can cut in half to make 12.5 any time you want to increase.
The symptoms you describe happening after an increase are a 'too high estrogen' or 'too suddenly raised' estrogen side effects to me. I recognise those well. Try not to be anxious because it's not your mood or mental state causing this, it's your hormones and HRT causing a physiological response which you experience as anxiety - but it's not, it's physical, as a cause. (Of course then we get worried about it and that makes it worse, but fundamentally it's physical.)
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Thyroid function levels - some GPs don't do more than the 'usual' blood tests even when patients continue to complain of symptoms. Do read the appropriate threads on the Forum about thyroid . Make notes ;)
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Crow Lady if your T was zero or almost nothing and then when tested it was double what it should be, it sounds like the correct course of action would have been to reduce your T dosage - not stop it??
If you were getting too much T, I can see why you'd feel really bad. But equally having too little T is going to mean the same probably...
If you're not on T now, it's unlikely your T levels were optimal. (Optimal means the same as a pre-menopausal woman - don't let them tell you that your very low post-menopausal levels are "normal".)
You could take Testogel every other day for eg - that would halve the amount and should see you with a normal level.
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I spoke to my usual doc yesterday. I'm already going in next week for vit d and calcium tests, he's also going to do testosterone, oestrogen and progesterone levels too. He said he thinks I might need testosterone.
Crow Lady if your T was zero or almost nothing and then when tested it was double what it should be, it sounds like the correct course of action would have been to reduce your T dosage - not stop it??
If you were getting too much T, I can see why you'd feel really bad. But equally having too little T is going to mean the same probably...
If you're not on T now, it's unlikely your T levels were optimal. (Optimal means the same as a pre-menopausal woman - don't let them tell you that your very low post-menopausal levels are "normal".)
You could take Testogel every other day for eg - that would halve the amount and should see you with a normal level.
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Hope it helps. :)
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The test results are starting to come in. I've had a text off the docs to say my vitamin D is low.
VITAMIN D Report, Abnormal
Coded entry Serum total 25-hydroxy vitamin D level (Xabo0) 39 nmol/L [50 - 99,999]
Below low reference limit; <30 nmol/L Deficiency
>30 - 50 nmol/L Insufficiency
>50 nmol/L Adequate Status
Different places online say different things, some say it is very low, some slightly low and some normal.
I do have nearly all the symptoms. The main article I read showed 14 main symptoms and I have 13 of them.
Docs have prescribed Colecalciferol 20,000unit capsules - 14 capsule - take one twice a week for 7 weeks.
So I'm hoping this is going to help but I'm not getting my hopes up. Anybody been in this situation?
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I'll have a lookC to find out my VitD levels - Nurse couldn't find them last night ::)
'Our pharmacies won't sell any more than 1,000 VitD tablets whereas my GP prescribed 3000 daily. So I pop 3 during the day ::)'. still looking - got it: written in 2020:
3 Summers ago both Mum and I had low VitD symptoms. We don't live together. We both garden daily. We both felt very tired. I would do 20 mins. weeding and then sit. Without moving at all, I simply couldn't. For 2 hours. I went for a blood test and levels came back low even though I am outside a lot. I rarely wear sun screen. Capsules on prescription lifted levels 4 us both. [VitD levels. I take 3,2000IU daily].
I've had no problems since but recognise what the symptoms might be.