Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Postmenopause => Topic started by: lilbebel on June 02, 2023, 04:53:28 PM
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Hello,
I am extremely sensitive to progesterone. I am fully menopausal and was taking continuous 100mg Utrogestan progesterone vaginally every other day and 2 pumps estrogel. I tolerated this but the new guidelines are to take 100mg daily and no less when using vaginal route. My mood is getting alarmingly depressive. I can’t tolerate synthetic progesterone at all and was non functioning before HRt. I’m very scared. Can’t talk to my Gynae as she is uninformed, unsympathetic and doesn’t even believe in progesterone sensitivity. I can’t get another doc either due to broken health care system. I’m either numb or crying the last couple of weeks and nobody believes me that it could be progesterone. I know my body and am well informed. Did any of you get used to the full dose of vaginal Utrogestan? If not, what did you do? Thank you. Losing all hope here and don’t think I will survive this much longer. Don’t want to be alive anymore as I feel so low.
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Hello,
I am extremely sensitive to progesterone. I am fully menopausal and was taking continuous 100mg Utrogestan progesterone vaginally every other day and 2 pumps estrogel. I tolerated this but the new guidelines are to take 100mg daily and no less when using vaginal route. My mood is getting alarmingly depressive. I can’t tolerate synthetic progesterone at all and was non functioning before HRt. I’m very scared. Can’t talk to my Gynae as she is uninformed, unsympathetic and doesn’t even believe in progesterone sensitivity. I can’t get another doc either due to broken health care system. I’m either numb or crying the last couple of weeks and nobody believes me that it could be progesterone. I know my body and am well informed. Did any of you get used to the full dose of vaginal Utrogestan? If not, what did you do? Thank you. Losing all hope here and don’t think I will survive this much longer. Don’t want to be alive anymore as I feel so low.
Hi Lilbebel - sounds awful and very frightening what you’re going through. I hope others join in with saying that this can get better with the right support! Have you anyone you can turn to just to get you through (emotionally) whilst you find the information you need? I’m sorry, I can’t help with the question directly as it’s news to me about taking 100mg EVERY night vaginally - only a week ago I switched from oral to vaginal every 2 days so your post is making me think about what to do until my next review (August)! Like you, I’m not sure I can take that dose every day.
Please take care and reach out to whomever you need to stay sane and safe, keep coming here to see what other ladies say about your question, someone must have experience of this xx
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Hello and welcome. I am so very sorry to hear of how low you are feeling and that you are not getting the support you need.
It is really hard when we do not have access to medical support. I do not know if you are in the UK but if you are you may not realise you can be referred to an NHS menopause clinic. In my experience gynae do not understand menopause and HRT.
Ultrogestan can cause depression and anxiety and many members on this forum report that so it is ignorant of your gynae to dismiss that. I do not see why you cannot continue with the ultrogestan every other day like you were if this was tolerable because you could always get scans done to monitor your womb lining.
I understand how lonely meno can feel. Apart from this forum I do not have anybody who understands it. Please know you are no longer alone. You will always find somebody to talk to on here. You feeling you do not wish to be alive is very concerning. Although things are so hard now, with the right support things can improve. It can take time to get our hormones a bit more stable.
Have you told anybody how low you are feeling? It is vital you do not keep this to yourself. You are so brave to join this forum and post about how you are feeling.
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Hi Lilebel
i completely agree with what Flossieteacake has said.
Utro causes me chronic anxiety and i have just started taking it rectally with little issues so far. i would rather do this than the way it was affecting me.
for me personally if it was better for you taking it vaginally every other day than do that. Utro for me gave me the very worst depression and anxiety and as Flossieteacake has said you could always ask your gp to arrange scans of your womb lining.
as has already been said you are so brave to mention this. please keep reaching out. i know its easily said but you really are not alone in this as many people can relate to what you're going through with the utro.
take care xxx
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Hi Lilibel
As the others have said I would go back to taking it the way it suited you. You can always have regular scans to check it is working for peace of mind. This is what I did and it was always fine x
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The manufacturer and the BMS have always said you need 100mg daily by whichever route, it's only Newson who thinks you can halve it. You can take less than is recommended but please have regular scans as you put yourself at greater risk of cancer if the lining builds up. How much oestrogen are you on? If it's a low/medium dose it's obviously safer than a high dose. Have you tried cyclogest or provera? Sometimes they suit people who are intolerant to utro. The other possibility would be long cycle (6 week) sequi so you have more utro free days, it's what I do.
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Thank you everyone for your kindness and support. I’m sorry some of you are also struggling with progesterone sensitivity. I also tried Provera and had an extremely bad reaction. Progestins are a no for me. I had PMDD during my menstruating years so truely do have bad reactions to progestins and progesterone. I will try to find a different doctor who I can at least talk to and have a reasonable adult conversation with. I like the suggestion of uterine scans to check the lining even if I pay out of pocket. Unfortunately, I’m in Canada and we don’t have dedicated menopausal clinics here. The system is very poorly structured for helping menopausal women and experts are impossible for me to find. I have tried. I’m so happy to have found a place where I can be me and express what I’m experiencing without being dismissed, judged and talked down to. It’s so important for us to be treated like a human being and the one size fits all approach to HRT doesn’t work for many of us.
I felt it was time for me to speak the truth as I believe many women suffer in silence or play down the severity of their struggles.
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I understand it can be harder to get HRT in Canada.
Have you spoken to anybody about how low you are feeling?
You are so right that it is not a one size fits all. It is sad when medical professionals cannot understand that.
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I did tell doctors how bad I was feeling and told them it was hormonal. They didn’t believe me and I was told “I’m treatment resistant”, that “depression isn’t a symptom of menopause”, that “they don’t know anything about menopause nor do they know any other professionals who do”, that “progesterone isn’t the devil”, that “there aren’t any options for me” and to “just get on with things and enjoy my life and some nice hobbies”, and so on. You get the picture. I have zero faith in the medical establishment here. Very sad situation for women struggling so badly.
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I did tell doctors how bad I was feeling and told them it was hormonal. They didn’t believe me and I was told “I’m treatment resistant”, that “depression isn’t a symptom of menopause”, that “they don’t know anything about menopause nor do they know any other professionals who do”, that “progesterone isn’t the devil”, that “there aren’t any options for me” and to “just get on with things and enjoy my life and some nice hobbies”, and so on. You get the picture. I have zero faith in the medical establishment here. Very sad situation for women struggling so badly.
What an outdated way of thinking! I really am so very sorry you have had this terrible experience.
I wonder if there are any support groups there for women going through this?
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Hello lilbebel, how are you doing today?
I just wanted to tell you about another side/opinion of utrogestan and progesterone in general.
Like you I have always had terrible PMDD and thought I couldn’t tolerate progesterone. However there is a new way of thinking about progesterone and it isn’t the ‘bad’ hormone it’s made out to be. Some women’s bodies, crave oestrogen, some testosterone and some crave progesterone. There are trials going on where they are giving women with severe PMDD high doses of utrogestan (up to 1200mg per day) to relieve PMDD.
For me, I feel suicidal on 100mg per day. The lowest of the low. Life is very black. My dose has been doubled to 200mg per day (I take it orally) and feel calm, happy, motivated. My body craves progesterone, which makes sense because I have always had symptoms of too much oestrogen which I thought was ‘normal’ PMT.
Don’t give up, you will find the right dosage and toleration level. I almost gave up.
Best wishes,
ermin
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lilbebel, sorry to come into this late on but your HRT regime wasn't broke and it didn't need fixing so I would go back to 100mg Utrogestan every other day. That is more than enough progesterone for most women and you can have a uterine scan to make sure.
Progesterone @50mg every day seems to be the magic number and well tolerated.
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That’s so interesting Ermin. I’m going to look into that research. I’m sure my body craved estrogen as I felt measurable relief the first day I applied it. Progesterone also makes me so tired I can’t get out of bed or function. I’m happy you found your happy balance and sorry you experienced such darkness on the lower dose. It’s truly frightening.
I’m hoping a doctor will support my getting a yearly scan as I will have to tell them why and they may refuse to prescribe to me at all then. I have to do it on the quiet (vaginally) as it’s not recognised as an acceptable method here. I have to sneak around like a criminal and not even be honest with my doc as she’s so unreceptive and rigid.
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Hi,i ve just started Provera 5mg as i couldnt take Utrogestan as it had too many side effects.Im thinking this is a lower dose so mighr work .Im on second week sleep and mood not great and keeping Oestrogel dose the same at 4 pumps.Im 57 and post meno 18 mths tried about 4 types of hrt if this doesnt work i havnt many options.Good luck ladies.
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Best of luck to you. I hope the Provera works out well for you.
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Hello lilbebel, how are you doing today?
I just wanted to tell you about another side/opinion of utrogestan and progesterone in general.
Like you I have always had terrible PMDD and thought I couldn’t tolerate progesterone. However there is a new way of thinking about progesterone and it isn’t the ‘bad’ hormone it’s made out to be. Some women’s bodies, crave oestrogen, some testosterone and some crave progesterone. There are trials going on where they are giving women with severe PMDD high doses of utrogestan (up to 1200mg per day) to relieve PMDD.
For me, I feel suicidal on 100mg per day. The lowest of the low. Life is very black. My dose has been doubled to 200mg per day (I take it orally) and feel calm, happy, motivated. My body craves progesterone, which makes sense because I have always had symptoms of too much oestrogen which I thought was ‘normal’ PMT.
Don’t give up, you will find the right dosage and toleration level. I almost gave up.
Best wishes,
ermin
Hello Ermin, I found a reference for the studies, you were talking about:
https://www.larabriden.com/progesterone-mood-treat-pmdd/
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It’s very interesting. I’m wondering if it’s worth My trying a higher dose. Can I ask you please how long it took for you to feel better? Was it immediate? I so need help right now. I’m back down to my lower dose for the past three days but still feeling suicidal depressed. I could feel that it’s hormonal but it doesn’t make it less intense.
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Hello lilbebel,
The difference was almost instant. The first night I took the higher dose, I slept really well and woke up feeling calm and really settled. I knew I couldn’t feel worse and I had the added benefit of my menopause specialist explaining 100mg a night might not be enough and if I felt really low, it was my body craving more progesterone, so to double the dose. I take the higher dose continuously and feel really well. It also helped being told that some people need 1200mg per day, so 100mg is a really low amount.
I hope you find your sweet spot with progesterone.
Ermin.
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Thank you for this. My other question to you is do you find it sedating? On 100 mg, I can barely function the next day. I’m so tired and drugged feeling. Does that happen to you? Or did it happen on the lower dose and disappear on the higher?
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The 200mg was sedating in that I slept really really well. But I woke up feeling calm, refreshed, motivated, happy. I also had so much energy. It probably took about a week before I realised how much energy I had, and also how much my sense of humour and sense of fun returned. My husband pointed out that I was back to my chatty self whereas the 100mg had rendered me silent, withdrawn and very very subdued, feeling like a zombie, depressed, anxious, sobbing for hours, totally unable to function.
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Thank you. This is really interesting. Your description of how you were on 100mg is exactly how it impacts me. I’m wondering if I can find the courage to try 200mg. It feels so dangerous given how fragile I feel. Perhaps with my husband watching me all day so I’m safe.
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There’s no harm in trying it, especially if your husband is on board. I had a long discussion with my husband and he promised to watch over me the following day as I was terrified of myself and what I might do, but the very first morning after taking it, I was having breakfast and felt so ‘normal’. The whole of the day I was expecting to crash back down again, but I didn’t and every day I have felt a little bit better. Additionally, and this is a big plus for me, my migraines have ceased.
Since you posted the link to progesterone and Lara Briden, I have visited her website and found out my body has been craving progesterone for decades, all those years of PMT/PMS/PMDD/ridiculously heavy painful periods could have been avoided. 🤬😡
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Hi Ermin2trude
I've been following this post with a lot of interest.
Could I ask (and sorry if you've clarified this already) what dose of estrogen are you on?
I find that with utrogestan, taking it at night is no good for me, as it seems to leave me feeling very wired. I've been taking vaginally in the mornings but only just started taking it orally in the mornings.
How do you take the 200mg utrogestan, do you take them orally at night or vaginally?
Thanks so much xx
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There’s no harm in trying it, especially if your husband is on board. I had a long discussion with my husband and he promised to watch over me the following day as I was terrified of myself and what I might do, but the very first morning after taking it, I was having breakfast and felt so ‘normal’. The whole of the day I was expecting to crash back down again, but I didn’t and every day I have felt a little bit better. Additionally, and this is a big plus for me, my migraines have ceased.
Since you posted the link to progesterone and Lara Briden, I have visited her website and found out my body has been craving progesterone for decades, all those years of PMT/PMS/PMDD/ridiculously heavy painful periods could have been avoided. 🤬😡
I’m deeply moved by your story and I’m truly so happy for you. I’m going to talk to my husband and see if he’d be willing to be my side if I try this as an experiment.
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The 200mg was sedating in that I slept really really well. But I woke up feeling calm, refreshed, motivated, happy. I also had so much energy. It probably took about a week before I realised how much energy I had, and also how much my sense of humour and sense of fun returned. My husband pointed out that I was back to my chatty self whereas the 100mg had rendered me silent, withdrawn and very very subdued, feeling like a zombie, depressed, anxious, sobbing for hours, totally unable to function.
Hi Ermin - like Disco, I’m intrigued what dose and type of oestrogen you are on but also the idea you mentioned about women’s bodies being optimal on more/less of one hormone over another. The latter part particularly reflects how each woman’s optimal physiology is different, it’s how we were each created with unique needs…
I’m on just under 3 pumps of estradiol but I know I need more, so when I upped it couple days ago to 3.5, lo and behold I’ve now bleeding. I’m on 100mg utrogestan every night (oral), however I’m wondering if this dose would be sufficient for me personally if I increase my oestrogen (I quickly reduced to just under 3 pumps again with the bleed!). I always thought that the standard 100mg was the limit if taken continuously!
So, for comparison sake, I’d be interested to know what does oestrogen you are taking.
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Hi Ermin2trude
I've been following this post with a lot of interest.
Could I ask (and sorry if you've clarified this already) what dose of estrogen are you on?
I find that with utrogestan, taking it at night is no good for me, as it seems to leave me feeling very wired. I've been taking vaginally in the mornings but only just started taking it orally in the mornings.
How do you take the 200mg utrogestan, do you take them orally at night or vaginally?
Thanks so much xx
Hi Disco,
I am on Estradot 50. The Utrogestan is 200mg orally every night. I tried vaginally when I was taking 100mg every night to see if it would counteract the extreme low mood, but that caused bladder issues and I spent half the night visiting the loo. It also didn’t help the mood.
It all made perfect sense when it was explained to me by my menopause specialist (Newson Clinic). Now that I have enough progesterone and my body (head) isn’t behaving like a toddler with a tantrum wanting more, I feel like I did in my twenties.
BTW I persevered for a long time with the oestrogen gel, but I couldn’t get the dosage right, and then I tried Evorel 50 patches which gave me fortnightly heavy bleeds plus excessive bloating. I’ve been on Estradot 50 for 8 months now with no issues.
Ermin x
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The 200mg was sedating in that I slept really really well. But I woke up feeling calm, refreshed, motivated, happy. I also had so much energy. It probably took about a week before I realised how much energy I had, and also how much my sense of humour and sense of fun returned. My husband pointed out that I was back to my chatty self whereas the 100mg had rendered me silent, withdrawn and very very subdued, feeling like a zombie, depressed, anxious, sobbing for hours, totally unable to function.
Hi Ermin - like Disco, I’m intrigued what dose and type of oestrogen you are on but also the idea you mentioned about women’s bodies being optimal on more/less of one hormone over another. The latter part particularly reflects how each woman’s optimal physiology is different, it’s how we were each created with unique needs…
I’m on just under 3 pumps of estradiol but I know I need more, so when I upped it couple days ago to 3.5, lo and behold I’ve now bleeding. I’m on 100mg utrogestan every night (oral), however I’m wondering if this dose would be sufficient for me personally if I increase my oestrogen (I quickly reduced to just under 3 pumps again with the bleed!). I always thought that the standard 100mg was the limit if taken continuously!
So, for comparison sake, I’d be interested to know what does oestrogen you are taking.
Hi Furyan,
I’m on Estradot 50 patches with the 200mg of utrogestan every night continuously. I tried the gel but couldn’t get the dosage right and I bled heavily every fortnight on Evorel 50 patches (?!?).
I know the standard dose for everyone is 2 pumps of gel, or a 50 patch plus 100 mg of utrogestan, but our bodies are so different it’s insane that we all need the exact HRT. Everyone seems to understand the benefits of oestrogen and what their bodies need, so adjust accordingly, but so little research has been done on progesterone (or testosterone). I feel very fortunate to have a menopause specialist who has colleagues conducting progesterone trials on women with PMS/PMDD etc. she knew immediately that 100mg of utrogestan a night was not going to be enough for me and that I would be feeling desperate on that dose, and she was right. I also found that some of symptoms (aching joints, night sweats, migraines, fatigue) disappeared when the utrogestan was increased.
I hope you manage to find your perfect combination.
Ermin x
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There’s no harm in trying it, especially if your husband is on board. I had a long discussion with my husband and he promised to watch over me the following day as I was terrified of myself and what I might do, but the very first morning after taking it, I was having breakfast and felt so ‘normal’. The whole of the day I was expecting to crash back down again, but I didn’t and every day I have felt a little bit better. Additionally, and this is a big plus for me, my migraines have ceased.
Since you posted the link to progesterone and Lara Briden, I have visited her website and found out my body has been craving progesterone for decades, all those years of PMT/PMS/PMDD/ridiculously heavy painful periods could have been avoided. 🤬😡
I’m deeply moved by your story and I’m truly so happy for you. I’m going to talk to my husband and see if he’d be willing to be my side if I try this as an experiment.
Hi Lilbebel,
I have all my fingers and toes crossed that you find the right dose of HRT for you. I had been so close to stopping HRT altogether because of the suicidal thoughts, but happy my husband found a specialist who understood my problems were lack of progesterone. Good luck xx
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Hi Ermin2trude
I've been following this post with a lot of interest.
Could I ask (and sorry if you've clarified this already) what dose of estrogen are you on?
I find that with utrogestan, taking it at night is no good for me, as it seems to leave me feeling very wired. I've been taking vaginally in the mornings but only just started taking it orally in the mornings.
How do you take the 200mg utrogestan, do you take them orally at night or vaginally?
Thanks so much xx
Hi Disco,
I am on Estradot 50. The Utrogestan is 200mg orally every night. I tried vaginally when I was taking 100mg every night to see if it would counteract the extreme low mood, but that caused bladder issues and I spent half the night visiting the loo. It also didn’t help the mood.
It all made perfect sense when it was explained to me by my menopause specialist (Newson Clinic). Now that I have enough progesterone and my body (head) isn’t behaving like a toddler with a tantrum wanting more, I feel like I did in my twenties.
BTW I persevered for a long time with the oestrogen gel, but I couldn’t get the dosage right, and then I tried Evorel 50 patches which gave me fortnightly heavy bleeds plus excessive bloating. I’ve been on Estradot 50 for 8 months now with no issues.
Ermin x
Hi Ermin
Thanks so very much for explaining that.
it is very interesting xxx
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The 200mg was sedating in that I slept really really well. But I woke up feeling calm, refreshed, motivated, happy. I also had so much energy. It probably took about a week before I realised how much energy I had, and also how much my sense of humour and sense of fun returned. My husband pointed out that I was back to my chatty self whereas the 100mg had rendered me silent, withdrawn and very very subdued, feeling like a zombie, depressed, anxious, sobbing for hours, totally unable to function.
Hi Ermin - like Disco, I’m intrigued what dose and type of oestrogen you are on but also the idea you mentioned about women’s bodies being optimal on more/less of one hormone over another. The latter part particularly reflects how each woman’s optimal physiology is different, it’s how we were each created with unique needs…
I’m on just under 3 pumps of estradiol but I know I need more, so when I upped it couple days ago to 3.5, lo and behold I’ve now bleeding. I’m on 100mg utrogestan every night (oral), however I’m wondering if this dose would be sufficient for me personally if I increase my oestrogen (I quickly reduced to just under 3 pumps again with the bleed!). I always thought that the standard 100mg was the limit if taken continuously!
So, for comparison sake, I’d be interested to know what does oestrogen you are taking.
Hi Furyan,
I’m on Estradot 50 patches with the 200mg of utrogestan every night continuously. I tried the gel but couldn’t get the dosage right and I bled heavily every fortnight on Evorel 50 patches (?!?).
I know the standard dose for everyone is 2 pumps of gel, or a 50 patch plus 100 mg of utrogestan, but our bodies are so different it’s insane that we all need the exact HRT. Everyone seems to understand the benefits of oestrogen and what their bodies need, so adjust accordingly, but so little research has been done on progesterone (or testosterone). I feel very fortunate to have a menopause specialist who has colleagues conducting progesterone trials on women with PMS/PMDD etc. she knew immediately that 100mg of utrogestan a night was not going to be enough for me and that I would be feeling desperate on that dose, and she was right. I also found that some of symptoms (aching joints, night sweats, migraines, fatigue) disappeared when the utrogestan was increased.
I hope you manage to find your perfect combination.
Ermin x
Hi Ermin - thanks for explaining this, and I’m really happy for you that you found a specialist who knows their stuff and is willing to push the boat out a bit and experiment a bit. So important to do this with the right support so you’re not alone! What you say makes perfect sense and I’ll mention it to my specialist at my next review. For now, I will slightly increase the oestrogen to address the last few symptoms but strongly suspecting the progesterone should also be adjusted - not sure I can hold out til I see the consultant though! :-\
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Hello ladies.
I have enjoyed reading this thread and the varying experiences with progesterone are very interesting.
Years ago I read an article about a woman who was having a terrible time but was helped by HRT. She was told that progesterone was the calming hormone which confused me as I understood that Oestrogen was infact the calming hormone. Perhaps for her, she needed more Progesterone to feel well.
In all the time I have been using HRT the focus has been on Oestrogen rather than progesterone. I have always had to take them together as I have a womb and was three years post meno when I started HRT.
I am also a patient of Newson Health and the two doctors I have seen have emphasized the need for maximum oestrogen and minimal progesterone. I have never had great success with HRT and I have often wondered if I need more prog not less. This has never been suggested by NH. I have never experienced bad PMT or PMDD and I felt great during both my pregnancies.
At a recent appointment with an NHS Consultant it was suggested that I double my use of Cyclogest pessaries. This is to protect the womb lining but perhaps it will help to balance my hormones and stabilise my mood swings. Unfortunately I cannot increase Cyclogest until my next NH appointment next month. I am obviously worried that my mood could worsen but more prog could be the one thing that helps and it is something that I haven't tried before.
I completely understand how scary it is to keep changing HRT and there is always the worry of feeling worse. However the desire to feel normal again is a powerful incentive!
Take care ladies and wishing you all well.
K.
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Hello ladies.
I have enjoyed reading this thread and the varying experiences with progesterone are very interesting.
Years ago I read an article about a woman who was having a terrible time but was helped by HRT. She was told that progesterone was the calming hormone which confused me as I understood that Oestrogen was infact the calming hormone. Perhaps for her, she needed more Progesterone to feel well.
In all the time I have been using HRT the focus has been on Oestrogen rather than progesterone. I have always had to take them together as I have a womb and was three years post meno when I started HRT.
I am also a patient of Newson Health and the two doctors I have seen have emphasized the need for maximum oestrogen and minimal progesterone. I have never had great success with HRT and I have often wondered if I need more prog not less. This has never been suggested by NH. I have never experienced bad PMT or PMDD and I felt great during both my pregnancies.
At a recent appointment with an NHS Consultant it was suggested that I double my use of Cyclogest pessaries. This is to protect the womb lining but perhaps it will help to balance my hormones and stabilise my mood swings. Unfortunately I cannot increase Cyclogest until my next NH appointment next month. I am obviously worried that my mood could worsen but more prog could be the one thing that helps and it is something that I haven't tried before.
I completely understand how scary it is to keep changing HRT and there is always the worry of feeling worse. However the desire to feel normal again is a powerful incentive!
Take care ladies and wishing you all well.
K.
Hi Kathleen,
It’s true that Progesterone is the calming hormone. It acts as a natural antidepressant, enhances mood and relieves anxiety. It also has a calming effect on the brain because it stimulates the brain's GABA receptors, the feel-good, calming neurotransmitters which help with maintaining sleep.
Progesterone is often the first hormone to drop during peri menopause and that can cause symptoms such as insomnia, changes in the menstrual cycle, hot flashes, night sweats, palpitations and fatigue, anxiety, insomnia, agitation, being really irritable, acne. abdominal pain, breast tenderness, spotting between periods, vaginal dryness, depression/mood swings, low libido, low blood sugar and headaches or migraines.
I had all of the above. Buckets of it.
It makes me sad that GP’s etc reach for oestrogen first because we are all so different. Oestrogen works brilliantly for many, but not everyone. In my case, increasing oestrogen and not progesterone made my body crave progesterone more and more and the anxiety, depression, migraines etc etc increased. I’m very lucky that both the doctors I saw at NH recognised my need for progesterone and not oestrogen, although I haven’t the courage to ditch my patches yet. I’m in a happy place and if it isn’t broken……
I hope you find that happy balance too.
Ermin
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Hello again Ermin2trude
I makes me both happy and sad to read your comments ( mood swing lol? ).
Everyone says that Oestrogen is the calming hormone and the article I read years ago was the only time that progesterone was said to have that effect. No medical person that I have spoken to, and I've spoken to many over the years, has ever suggested increasing my progesterone. Quite the opposite infact and when large doses of Oestrogen haven't helped these people just shake their heads. This includes Newson Health doctors so you were fortunate to find two who had more knowledge and experience.
I have a Newson Health appointment next month with yet another doctor and I will ask about increasing my Progesterone. I have nothing to lose as my emotional issues are dominating my life and making me fearful of the future.
Wishing you well and take care.
K.
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Good morning,
This is SUCH an interesting thread. Thank you Ermin2trude for sharing your experience - such an eye opener. It's great that you found a solution and that you feel well!
@ lilbebel, what you're going through is just terrible - I really hope that increasing your progesterone works for you too. How are you doing today? Fingers crossed you are doing so much better.
It makes me so angry that in certain countries women aren't given the right HRT care. I luckily managed to find a gyne here in France who has given me HRT but only because I went back to her with printed evidence that peri women in the UK get HRT.
Have a great (or as good as possible!) day everyone.
xxx
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Morning ladies,just wondering if anyones stopped their hrt altogether.ive recentlt tried Provera and Lutigest both of which had side effects which were worse than Utrogestan which affects my mood.im trialling reducing my Oestrogel from 4 down to 3 then 2 pumps but i still have to take progesterone.So do i just cut down until i dont take anyrthing?im 18 months post menopause and wondering if i can manage without it?anyone else stopped?
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As others have said, this is an interesting thread.
Ermin2trude, what type of migraines do you have? Are they with or without aura?
It took me a very long time but I eventually discovered that my silent migraines (aura but no pain) kicked off when my progesterone tanked aged 43. I don't think I ever had high levels of progesterone but they protected me from migraine auras for 31 years. Migraines with auras are usually caused by oestrogen spikes but migraines without aura are usually caused by low oestrogen levels. Decent levels of progesterone iron out any spikes.
I think most of us need a steady flow of oestrogen, progesterone and testosterone post menopause although some women are severely progesterone intolerant to the point where they literally can't take it at all.
So really it's about finding which category you fit into and tweaking until you get the right dose of each hormone.
Quite a few MM members have had good results with progesterone on the Alternative Therapies section.
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Hi Mary G,
My migraines were 6 day long ones with aura. I know….6 days…..3 days on my left side followed immediately by 3 days on the right. They always happened during my menstrual period when progesterone was at its lowest. Other symptoms such as severe bloating, PMS, very low mood and very heavy periods etc are also down to low progesterone levels.
When peri menopause hit and the little progesterone I naturally had finally left the building….and alas it is the first hormone to decline in peri….leading to the night sweats, flushes etc for everyone, well that has been impossible.
You are so right, it’s definitely about finding which hormone category you fit into and getting that balance. I’ve read on this forum somewhere that there is myth surrounding oestrogen dominance, but the symptoms of oestrogen dominance are so similar to symptoms of low progesterone, that maybe a balance for some ladies is to be found by increasing progesterone, or lowering oestrogen. Increasing my oestrogen and not progesterone sent me to a very bad place. I have now decreased the oestrogen and increased the progesterone thanks to the Doctors at Newson Health, and am a fully functioning member of society again…….with no more migraines!
I shall look into progesterone on the Alternative Therapies section. Thank you for pointing me in that direction.
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Thanks Ermin2trude, I had a feeling you would say you have the oestrogen induced migraines with aura. As you rightly say, progesterone goes west first leaving you with no protection against oestrogen spikes. Progesterone is a calming, hormone stabiliser which aids sleep.
Oestrogen dominance very definitely does exist but perhaps a better description would be "oestrogen spikes". It has literally taken me years to get there but the oestrogen spikes and generic hormonal instability triggered my migraine auras, IBS and it's probably the cause of my (harmless water filled) breast cyst.
I'm now 62, very post menopause and take one pump of oestrogen gel with four pumps of progesterone gel every day plus a pea sized measure of testosterone and I find it is a good balance. I also have to take low dose of amitriptyline (an AD) to keep the serotonin levels up - hormone manipulation alone stopped working for the migraines.
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Hi,im also a migraine sufferer and have reduced my Oestrogel from 4 pumps to 3 without any issues.im currently thinking the migraines could be from a high level of oestrogen.im back on Utrogestan as i cant take most progesterones.Can i ask where you can get a Progesterone gel ?im thinking i feel better on lower dose might look at 2 then 1 pump of Oestrogel.Anyone with anything similar i would appreciate your advice,
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Hi Ruralrach,
I’ve read some of your posts on other discussions and was going to get in touch with you to say that I think some of your symptoms are caused by high oestrogen/low progesterone.
If you’re having too many bleeds, then that is too much oestrogen building up the lining of your womb. Anxious, nervous. Jittery, tearful etc….high oestrogen and not enough calming progesterone. Hot flushes, night sweats, aching joints…..too little progesterone compared to oestrogen.
If you tolerate utrogestan and can take 200 mg continuously then that’s a brilliant base to get you feeling back to your old self again. Cutting down on the oestrogen would probably help with a lot of your issues. I reduced down to a 50 patch but I am thinking of reducing further. I absorbed too much oestrogen from Evorel 50 and had the breakthrough bleeds (heavy…every 2 weeks), bloating, brain fog, night sweats , aching joints, migraines etc. I’m now on Estradot 50 which is delivered in a slightly different method, because the oestrogen in the patch is such that your body absorbs it and then has to convert it into what it needs. I find it works brilliantly for me. I couldn’t cope with the gel because it created oestrogen spikes which resulted in the anxious, dizzy, heart palpitations, jitteriness that I can’t handle.
As Mary G was stating, we all have a magic ‘balance’ of hormones unique to us and some us need more progesterone/less oestrogen. You might be in that camp.
I hope you find the balance. Before I did, my health anxiety was through the roof and I was tinkering with oestrogen thinking it held the answer, when in fact my eureka moment came with utrogestan.
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Hi Ermin2trude,thank you so much for replying.im thinking the same where the answer isnt the usual thing.Im feeling less anxious on less oestrogen,bad headache yesterday but its so hot it could be that.I can tolerate 100mg Utrogestan but had to stop oral after mood dropped.i m trying alternate nights oral and pv.Will reduce Oestrogel slowly over next week and see if it helps.thank you again for your support,it does help!
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Hello again Ruralrach,
How is it going with reducing your estrogel? How are you coping?
Have you ever taken 200mg Utrogestan orally continuously? I couldn’t tolerate 100mg (felt suicidal and unable to function), but 200mg makes me feel very calm and rock solid emotionally. My migraines happen when I don’t have progesterone…..I just crash completely……and after a few days my body adjusts to having no progesterone and I’m fine again. It’s the stability and dose of utrogestan that I need. I noticed that Mary G (4 pumps of progesterone gel daily), thought she was very progesterone intolerant a few years back and was struggling with it all. I wonder if her Dr has the same belief that mine does…..low mood is your body signalling that you just aren’t giving your body enough progesterone. Anyway….it seems to work for us 👍
Having said that, the very hot humid weather recently gave me a stinking headache 🤕 . I do have magic pills which I take at the onset of a migraine and one of those stops it in its tracks (sumatriptan).
I detest this hormonal rollercoaster. So many times I want to rip off my patch, bin the utrogestan and see what happens. How bad can it be???.
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Hi Ermin2trude,
Im doing better than lastweek im down to 3 pumps of Oestrogel and Utro 200mg oral and feeling more me.Its a work in progress but sleep not great as its too hot for everyone.Awake at 4 am but hoping that cooler weather will help.Im hoping if i keep same dose i may not get migraines as they only started a few years ago..
Really hope this continues as i was thinking of stopping hrt altogether.thank you again its so nice 2 have someone who understands :)
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Hi Ruralrach,
I have all my fingers and toes crossed for you. Good luck 🤞🏼
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Hi Ermin2trude,
Im doing better than lastweek im down to 3 pumps of Oestrogel and Utro 200mg oral and feeling more me.Its a work in progress but sleep not great as its too hot for everyone.Awake at 4 am but hoping that cooler weather will help.Im hoping if i keep same dose i may not get migraines as they only started a few years ago..
Really hope this continues as i was thinking of stopping hrt altogether.thank you again its so nice 2 have someone who understands :)
hi Ruralrach
ive been following this thread with interest. how do you take the 200mg of utro? is it continously and if so do you take it orally or vaginally?
thanks so much xxx
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The whole idea of ‘more rather than less’ progesterone is beginning to make more sense to me when reading this thread, especially in the context of research trialling much larger doses. Laura Biden says the research involves giving maybe too high a dose but the principle still makes sense if we’re aiming to balance our HRT treatment. I’ve been increasing my Estrogel a little at a time to address symptoms and am now somewhere around 3 pumps. Whilst this seems to address most symptoms, I’ve noticed that each increase has caused more fluid retention. My consultant mentioned he commonly sees this when there isn’t enough progesterone to balance the effects of oestrogen. This seems to have happened with me, as I’m definitely peeing less than when on a lower dose of oestrogen 🤷🏽♀️.
Seriously makes me question whether I need slightly more than the 100mg Utrogestan I’m taking orally every night 🤔
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How you feeling now LilBebel?
Did you change your progesterone dose?
I'm reading all this with interest. Lilbebel hasn't popped in for a few days, so I hope she doesn't mind me using her thread to ask if anyone has ideas for me, I'm listening and I need advice, do I need more or less progesterone?
I had my first migraine during my second pregnancy then had them premenstrually occassionally after that, right up until my periods stopped.
By the time I was getting hot flashes, the migraines were distant history. Apart from hot flashes and waking drenched in sweat freezing cold, I felt far better than ever before.
My libido went through the roof, I felt confident and secure in myself, relieved of the ups and downs of my cycle, my mood was very stable and I was happy.
I asked for HRT to relieve the sweating, especially at night, I needed more than one bed a night as I soaked through every pillow, sheet and duvet.
My mood post meno and before HRT had never been better since childhood, as far as I remember.
Then I started Evorel Conti a year post meno. The night sweats eased off but after a few weeks my mood had crashed through a hundred floors and landed me in a very dark place where death looked like my best option.
For about a year I made do with vagifem and clonidine, then a new doctor agreed to try me with Evorel50 and provera instead.
She also told me to give myself a couple of months on Evorel50 before starting provera.
Those weeks on Evorel50 only were sort of ok, not bad, not great, just ok. Sweating a bit less, feeling ok in general, small differences.
Then I had provera 10mg, a few hours later I was crying into my dinner. By day 4 I was off work sick, I was encouraged to continue to day 12 so I halved the dose to 5mg per day, I stopped getting worse but was still too ill to work, the fatigue was really crippling, I could barely get off the sofa never mind get washed, dressed and out to work.
The next month I got switched to utrogestan 100mg for 25 days a month instead of provera 10mg for 12 days a month, but I refused it because of the longer time on it.
Then I got a doctor to agree to utrogestan for only 12 days, but the dose needed to be 200mg.
I thought utrogestan would be a game changer, I'd heard great things about it and it was certainly different from provera like night and day, but better? Not sure.
I'd taken provera in the evenings because it made me super sleepy. Utrogestan woke me up, I was wired, no sleep until 3am, I switched to morning times and was buzzed for three or four days before I crashed into a weeping suicidal heap again.
This last month my period started the day before I was due to start the utrogestan, it's finishing now, day6 and it's little dark spots only. I didn't take utrogestan because I thought it might mess up my period, besides I didn't want to take it at all.
Now I really don't know whether to take the utrogestan or not. I've been trying to speak to a GP since Friday, I'll try again tomorrow, they only have a few call slots a day and I'm not very good at tech, I don't know how to auto redial on my current phone, so I don't get through as one of the first callers of the day :'(
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Hi Meno-Mel,
Sorry to read all that you’ve been through - have you thought about a Mirena coil?
I was on Utrogestan 100, orally fir over a year, but had breakthrough bleeding ( thought now to be due to too low oestrogen) but I was told to double the Utrogestan to 200 orally a day and I could only tolerate it for 6 weeks. My anxiety went through the roof and I had zero energy.
It was suggested I take 10 mg provera instead, but I refused and had a coil fitted instead. So far ( apart from some bleeding, which is getting better) all has been well and anxiety much improved…is it so something you could consider?
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I had a mirena coil fitted once. I remember how low I felt at the two month review when I asked her to remove it because it was making me feel really tired and depressed. Her refusal was a kick in the teeth for sure. I got used to it after a year or two, but I'd never ever trust them again.