Menopause Matters Forum

Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: discogirl on March 08, 2023, 02:26:43 PM

Title: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 08, 2023, 02:26:43 PM
well at the beginning of all this it took me ages to get to sleep. i was on 4 pumps gel a day but i felt wired and my boobs were so sore so i reduced to 3 pumps a day.

i started taking utrogestan orally at night and it does put me to sleep but what im finding is that im waking in the middle of the night and my brain feels wide awake.

last night it was 1.30 night before 4.30.

im beginning to wonder if my problems with sleep is even connected to my hormones.

any advice would be gratefully received
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: ccariad on March 08, 2023, 03:00:57 PM
Hi Discogirl

I had/have same problems with sleep and your message resonates with me. I was awake at 330am this morning (and that is an improving picture ) I did try the Gel and the sprays for me they may get into the system but they quickly fall so if you are like me getting to a consistent steady state of oestrogen is tricky.  It is the fluctuation up then down which creates the cortisol spikes which then wake us up feeling wired but tired and unable to get back to sleep.  If you do a lot of cardio or high resistance exercise that will further complicate things even with 2mg oral zumenon Am and PM and urogesten 100mg prior to bed, like you, if I have done a 6k run earlier in the day I will generally sleep ok until 330am. This regime is still very early days - just a week in duration so I am hoping for further improvement).  The link with exercise is due to raised SHBG,  which is increased when we exercise so any oestrogen gets bound to it and it is only free circulating oestrogen that our body can actually use !!!  I gave up with GP's and paid to see a private consultant,  am now working with a good Sexual health/menopause specialist and waiting for an implant (hopefully on NHS but will pay if I have to to get quality of life back!). An implant will hopefully  help my body get to a steady state with fewer fluctuations. In the meantime she had recommended the 2x2mg oestrogen and 100mg regime (in theory I do not need progesterone as I do not have uterus or ovaries (since age of 22)) The GP's will not go this far so you may want to get yourself a private consult with a specialist and see how that goes for you.  I hand on heart empathise with you as I know from painful first hand experience how difficult this can be. Best wishes Cc
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 08, 2023, 03:11:38 PM
Hi ccariad

Thanks so much for your very informative reply.

I was wondering if the problem is due to not getting a consistent dose on the gel, if a patch would give me a more consistent dose, as I really don't fancy going on the implant. (just not for me) xxx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: jaypo on March 08, 2023, 04:29:00 PM
Hi discogirl,my sleep since meno has been truly dreadful but recently I was put on vit d and calcium for osteopenia and lately my sleep has greatly improved, I have discussed this with another lady on here and she reckons it's the vit d and I'm now tending to agree with her, I also take CBD gummies so not sure if they help also,certainly my anxiety has improved greatly too xx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 08, 2023, 04:50:56 PM
Vitd Jaypo that's interesting, cos I live in the frozen north so I'm sure I'd be deficient in it!!!

I didn't realise lack of vitd could cause sleep disturbance.

I think you're meant to take it in the mornings aren't you?

How much do you take and do you really think it's helped your sleep?

I do tend to wonder if the gel just isn't giving me a consistent dose mind xx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: Gnatty on March 08, 2023, 05:45:33 PM
How do you take the three pumps? If you are doing two in the morning and one at night, maybe try one and a half at night. If you are taking all three in the morning, maybe try splitting the dose. The idea being then you will have enough oestrogen to keep you going through the night. I am just experimenting with this myself. Like you I only recently started taking the utrogestan to help with sleep. It definitely is really helping but am waking about four ish. I wouldn't say I feel wired, the utrogestan seems to have damped down that feeling for me, but it does take me a while to get back to sleep. Still, it's so much better than this time five weeks ago.
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: jaypo on March 08, 2023, 06:11:31 PM
Ha,yes,discogirl,I'm in the far north too and don't see much of that fireball in the sky,I'd never even thought that it could be the vit d that had improved things but this lady who I spoke to pm'd me and she has looked up all the benefits of it and reckons it may be all meno ladies need in some cases (not all) and it wasn't until she mentioned it,that I thought...oh yes, everything has improved this year,I started taking it in early November,so it does take a few weeks to work.I'm on Accrete and just looked at the label   ;D it's equivalent to 880 IU sorry,not sure what that means lol but hope it helps x
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 08, 2023, 07:07:34 PM
How do you take the three pumps? If you are doing two in the morning and one at night, maybe try one and a half at night. If you are taking all three in the morning, maybe try splitting the dose. The idea being then you will have enough oestrogen to keep you going through the night. I am just experimenting with this myself. Like you I only recently started taking the utrogestan to help with sleep. It definitely is really helping but am waking about four ish. I wouldn't say I feel wired, the utrogestan seems to have damped down that feeling for me, but it does take me a while to get back to sleep. Still, it's so much better than this time five weeks ago.

hi gnatty

ive been taking the gel all in the morning.

i was thinking of doing two in the morning and one at night but ive always been a bit nervous as ive heard it can stimulate.

also i put my gel on at 8.30 in the morning so presumably i'd have to put the other gel on around 8.30 at night. also when putting the 2 pumps on in the morning if i put one pump on each arm would i use say an inner thigh for the night time dose?

thanks gnatty xxx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 08, 2023, 07:12:44 PM
Ha,yes,discogirl,I'm in the far north too and don't see much of that fireball in the sky,I'd never even thought that it could be the vit d that had improved things but this lady who I spoke to pm'd me and she has looked up all the benefits of it and reckons it may be all meno ladies need in some cases (not all) and it wasn't until she mentioned it,that I thought...oh yes, everything has improved this year,I started taking it in early November,so it does take a few weeks to work.I'm on Accrete and just looked at the label   ;D it's equivalent to 880 IU sorry,not sure what that means lol but hope it helps x

hi jaypo

yes you and i must be in the same boat regarding sun!

i used to take it but stopped but its worth a try. i actually have some in so i will take some tomorrow.

thanks jaypo i'll let you know how i get on xx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: Kathleen on March 08, 2023, 07:25:48 PM
Hello ladies.

I have been reading up on vitamin D and sleep problems are definitely linked to low levels.

I had some routine blood tests recently and although I also have several symptoms of Vit D deficiency my GP didn't include this on the test. I was also expecting iron and B12 levels to be included but they didn't happen either so I decided to supplement anyway!

It is definitely worth considering adding Vit D and other supplements to see if they help with menopause symptoms.


Wishing you well ladies and take care.

K.



Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: jaypo on March 08, 2023, 07:29:36 PM
Ah and here's the lovely lady herself lol Hi Kathleen,didn't want to mention your name but was hoping you'd see this post.
Discogirl please do give it several weeks as I didn't notice a difference for at least 6 and it wasn't until Kathleen noticed I'd started vit d and my better sleep that we put 2 and 2 together x
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: Gnatty on March 08, 2023, 07:53:25 PM
I agree oestrogel can stimulate but remember we have added in utrogestan so to a large extent that should balance it out. At the end of the day it's all trial and error as we are all so different. If you are nervous see if half a pump at night makes any difference. I never worry about the timings, perhaps I should!! So my gel goes on in the morning anywhere between half eight and ten and the evening pump about half nine tennis unless I'm out and then it can be later. I have no ovaries so I guess I'm more at risk of running low by the middle of the night....
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 08, 2023, 08:15:39 PM
Hello ladies.

I have been reading up on vitamin D and sleep problems are definitely linked to low levels.

I had some routine blood tests recently and although I also have several symptoms of Vit D deficiency my GP didn't include this on the test. I was also expecting iron and B12 levels to be included but they didn't happen either so I decided to supplement anyway!

It is definitely worth considering adding Vit D and other supplements to see if they help with menopause symptoms.


Wishing you well ladies and take care.

K.

hi kathleen

i knew vitd was important but i never knew it could affect sleep.

apart from sleep what are the other symptoms of low vitd.

thanks so much for replying kathleen take care xxx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 08, 2023, 08:20:41 PM
Ah and here's the lovely lady herself lol Hi Kathleen,didn't want to mention your name but was hoping you'd see this post.
Discogirl please do give it several weeks as I didn't notice a difference for at least 6 and it wasn't until Kathleen noticed I'd started vit d and my better sleep that we put 2 and 2 together x

hi jaypo

i definately will and i'll start tomorrow. it doesnt interfere with hrt or anything does it?

at the beginning of covid our gp told us to take it as he said most of us are deficient however i stopped after about 1 year.

im glad you mentioned it jaypo thanks.

can i ask what issues were you having with sleep xxx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 08, 2023, 08:26:11 PM
I agree oestrogel can stimulate but remember we have added in utrogestan so to a large extent that should balance it out. At the end of the day it's all trial and error as we are all so different. If you are nervous see if half a pump at night makes any difference. I never worry about the timings, perhaps I should!! So my gel goes on in the morning anywhere between half eight and ten and the evening pump about half nine tennis unless I'm out and then it can be later. I have no ovaries so I guess I'm more at risk of running low by the middle of the night....

hi gnatty

i could do that and just add a half as you're correct its all trial and error.

we should keep in touch and share our findings.

i hope it works out for you Gnatty xxx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: jaypo on March 09, 2023, 08:50:51 AM
I can't see how it would interfere with HRT but please look into that,or maybe Kathleen can tell you.
My sleep was ridiculous discogirl,I'd go to bed feeling tired,then once in there my body said ....nope,you're mistaken,you're not tired at all  >:( >:( I'd lie there til maybe 3 or 4am tossing and turning,getting so distressed and making it worse I suppose,then I'd sleep but wake before 7am and be the most crotchety old bag imaginable,mood obviously went downhill,I was occasionally taking a Benadryl which did work but not ideal for long term. Now, I go to bed at 11pm and wake at 7am maybe earlier some days but it's FABULOUS,hope I've not jinxed it now 🙀
Sorry,long post xx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 09, 2023, 09:07:42 AM
hi jaypo

thanks for sharing that. that was/is like my sleep.

and no you havent jinxed it i dont believe in that.

i took my vit d this morning. i will keep you posted xxx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: Kathleen on March 09, 2023, 10:32:12 AM
Hello again ladies.

The symptoms of low vitamin D include brain fog, anxiety, depression, painful muscles and joints, fatigue, mood changes and poor sleep. When you consider that most people are deficient especially over the winter months it makes sense to supplement.

Discogirl - I also took vitamin D at the beginning of the pandemic  but after a while I stopped taking it. At the same time my HRT was constantly changing and I now wonder if this overshadowed the benefits, mind you I didn't catch COVID so that could be one effect I did notice!

Jaypo - thanks for the kind words. I am no expert of course but Vit D does appear to have an important role to play in our physical and mental health and any deficiencies are easily rectified so trying a supplement is definitely worthwhile.

Wishing you well ladies and take care.

K.



Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 09, 2023, 10:52:56 AM
Thanks so much for that Kathleen,

I've just taken my vitd supplement this morning, so watch this space xxx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 09, 2023, 11:15:33 AM
Kathleen,

Just found this online between the correlation of melatonin and vitd. apparantely melatonin decreases as we age however it decreases significantly during menopause and vitd helps with levels of melatonin.

"Melatonin production relies on vitamin D: Vitamin D helps the body produce melatonin, a hormone that supports sleep. Low levels of vitamin D could result in low levels of melatonin, leading to sleep problems."

Thought you might be interested x
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: Kathleen on March 09, 2023, 11:48:20 AM
Hello again ladies

Discogirl - Interesting find! My main problem is mood changes and apparently low vit D can be the cause. I have always attributed these to the menopause but perhaps low Vit D is either responsible or making a contribution. Obviously a complete cure is the dream lol but if something as simple as a vitamin supplement can reduce the severity of symptoms that is worth having.

Another aspect of vitamin D is that it raises testosterone levels. As we know T is important for us women and I understand that our bodies can convert it to oestrogen in menopause,  perhaps this is a natural way of replacing the Oestrogen lost at this time?

I am continuing to read all I can on the subject as I find it so interesting.   The fact that vitamin D works as a hormone gives me hope that it can help those is us struggling to find a balance.

Take care and keep us updated.

K.
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: jaypo on March 09, 2023, 11:57:11 AM
Ladies I REALLY hope this works as well for you as it did me and Kathleen, I can't thank you enough for actually pointing out all the factors Vit d is responsible for,PLEASE do remember that for me it took weeks for it to work,low mood has gone,anxiety has,on the most part gone and of course sleep has greatly improved.please do let me know how you both get on xx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: discogirl on March 09, 2023, 02:02:52 PM
hi kathleen and jaypo

this is all very interesting so thank you both very much. i didnt know vit d raises testosterone levels. gosh its such an important vitamin isnt it.

hi  jaypo

yes im going to keep taking it anyway it cant do any harm. i understand these vitamins can take weeks to kick in.

even a little help with the sleep would be beneficial.

take care xx
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: Talli on March 09, 2023, 02:19:14 PM
Hi everyone, can I ask what brand of vit D you are all taking? My sleep and mood are atrocious. I feel really sleepy at around 9/10pm band I go off to sleep ok but then wake up at around 2am and can’t get back to sleep again. Every night!
Also my libido is completely AWOL so wondering if it might help that too? I’d love to know more  :)
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: Kathleen on March 09, 2023, 03:25:07 PM
Hello again ladies.

I just wanted to say that it can take up to twelve weeks of daily supplementation to resolve vitamin D deficiency. I have learned this online but I also have two friends who were diagnosed by a blood test from their GP. They were both prescribed supplements and were told that it could  be three to four months before they would reach a healthy level.  One  friend was also told to continue with a maintenance dose of Vit D for life.

I hope this is helpful and take care everyone.

K.

Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: Talli on March 09, 2023, 03:26:44 PM
Thank you  :) Good to know X
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: jaypo on March 09, 2023, 04:50:57 PM
I'm on Accrete but it's prescribed by the Dr ,not sure if you can buy it over the counter but the vit d3 is  equivalent to 800 IU but mine are also calcium based too
Title: Re: continuing saga of my sleep
Post by: Talli on March 09, 2023, 05:32:33 PM
Ahhh ok thanks :)