Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: discogirl on November 06, 2022, 01:19:26 AM
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i know you all must be sick of me but im so desperate.
increased my patch to 50 first couple of wks my sleep was much better i felt i had a life again now its back to square one. lying here hr after hr waiting for sleep to come.
everyone tells me go low and slow but i cannot live like this. this isnt living.
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Hi I’d ask for a 75 patch x
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Hi Dotty,
What I was going to do was contact my gp on Monday and I was going to ask to use the gel.
I feel I'd be better on the gel.
Can I ask Dotty, what gel do you use? I understand is it 17B gel is good but there seems to be a shortage of that.
From reading posts, it seems the gel with either the yellow square or green square on it isn't very good.
I just want to ask for the best one xx
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Hi I’d ask for a 75 patch x
Thanks so much for replying by the way Dotty xx
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Gel options are Oestrogel or Sandrena. I use Oestrogel. I’ve not had a problem getting it and I believe the shortages have stopped.
Don’t get tied up in the green / yellow debate. I use both and I’m fine.
You may be better staying with patches. x
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Hi Dotty,
Can I just ask why do you think I'd be better of staying on the patches?
It's just my sleep has never gotten better on the patches so that's why I'm wondering if the gel may be easier, I could also use it in the mornings.
I appreciate your advice x
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Hi discogirl
I prefer a mixture of patch and gel. I use a 100 patch and 2 pumps of gel but I can alter this as needs be. It just gives me more flexibility.
Hugs
Nik xx
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Hi Nik2502,
Thanks for your reply.
I feel very very low at the moment. When I increase my patch my sleep is fine then after about 2wks it's back to not sleeping and I always slept really well, and its the only symptom that I want to get right as my anxiety isn't too bad now actually x
Can I ask if you use patches then top up with gel and you say you can adjust your dose as needed, I thought we needed a consistent dose?
Thanks very much x
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Hi discogirl it’s not that the patches haven’t helped you. It’s that the dose isn’t high enough. Changing types of hrt is probably better once you’ve been in the right dose of patch for 3 months. The oestrogen in the patches and the gel is the same.
If you think you’d be happier on the gel then ask your GP but remember that it still won’t be a quick fix.
You’ll get there xxxx
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I understand.
It may be better sticking with the patches then, rather than chopping and changing.
I was just worried that I may not be absorbing the patches.
It's so difficult to know sometimes xx
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Hi
I think a lot of women learn that sometimes they need more and sometimes less. I can feel when my own hormones surge and use less gel. It seems to happen about every three months.
Could your doctor prescribe a short term course of sleep meds to try and reset your sleeping pattern? It might help.
Nik x
quote author=discogirl link=topic=63850.msg884532#msg884532 date=1667721647]
Hi Nik2502,
Thanks for your reply.
I feel very very low at the moment. When I increase my patch my sleep is fine then after about 2wks it's back to not sleeping and I always slept really well, and its the only symptom that I want to get right as my anxiety isn't too bad now actually x
Can I ask if you use patches then top up with gel and you say you can adjust your dose as needed, I thought we needed a consistent dose?
Thanks very much x
[/quote]
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Hi Nik,
thanks for your reply.
The problem with sleeping aids is, they're okay for more less complicated sleep issues, but as they're only for short term use and they really only 'mask' the problem I don't want to start taking them.
As I'd have to obviously stop taking them and I just don't want anything more in my system at the moment.
Thanks for the suggestion though x
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You will get better … I was where you are and it took a while but I got there in the end x
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thanks Dotty x
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Hi
I agree with you re sleep meds I just thought it might be an option. I found hypnotherapy helped massively with my sleep issues a few years ago.
Hopefully once you get your HRT sorted it will improve your sleep xx
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Hi
I agree with you re sleep meds I just thought it might be an option. I found hypnotherapy helped massively with my sleep issues a few years ago.
Hopefully once you get your HRT sorted it will improve your sleep xx
Thanks for your reply Nik2502 as I know you are having issues as well.
Let me know how you get on with your hrt regime x
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I wonder if it is something some of us have to endure. In the early stages of menopause I used to wake in the early hours and not go back to sleep. I think I had about 5 hours sleep which is not enough for me. Later on I slept better and now I am having sleep issues again. It takes me 2 hours to fall asleep and then I wake through out the night. I then wake up exhausted but cannot go back to sleep at all. I know there is a sleep issue thread on here so for some of us maybe it is not an oestrogen issue.
I was debating if I should post this Disco as I do not want to make you feel any worse but then thought it may help for you to know you are not alone.
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Just a couple of thoughts, do you change your patch in the morning? I would always try that as when I was on patches, changing at night or later on in day, affected my sleep.
Also I have a pillow spray and a magnesium spray. I can recommend both of those.
About the gel, I think the 17b is no more sadly! You will either get green or yellow. I’m lead to believe that the green is the newer one.
Good luck you will get better xxx
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Hi Discogirl
When you increased to 50 you say your sleep got better for a few weeks. That indicates your body needs a bit more. Why don’t you just add another half a patch so you’ll be on 75 just to see how you go? This is what I had to do. Sometimes it feels too much and I cut a tiny bit off. Good luck.
Hi Mollydolly,
Thanks for your reply.
To be honest I am sooool tempted to do this, but I've only been on the 50 patch since 22nd October and I'm reluctant to add more so quickly. I am trying to take it slowly.
However, if things don't improve then I will have to; I can't continue on 2 to 3 hrs sleep.
How long were you on the 50 patch before you increasesd 75 can I ask xx
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Just a couple of thoughts, do you change your patch in the morning? I would always try that as when I was on patches, changing at night or later on in day, affected my sleep.
Also I have a pillow spray and a magnesium spray. I can recommend both of those.
About the gel, I think the 17b is no more sadly! You will either get green or yellow. I’m lead to believe that the green is the newer one.
Good luck you will get better xxx
Hi MIS71MUM,
Thanks for your reply.
I change my patch in the morning for that reason; which is why I contemplating the gel as I know that sometimes estrogen patches, I believe a side effect can be sleep problems, but so can low estrogen for that.
I take mag bisglycinate, it doesn't help me sleep and doesn't seem to relax me either.
When I get to bed, I am so fearful of not sleeping, my heart feels it beating so hard and fast that it feels as though its going to come out of my chest xx
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I wonder if it is something some of us have to endure. In the early stages of menopause I used to wake in the early hours and not go back to sleep. I think I had about 5 hours sleep which is not enough for me. Later on I slept better and now I am having sleep issues again. It takes me 2 hours to fall asleep and then I wake through out the night. I then wake up exhausted but cannot go back to sleep at all. I know there is a sleep issue thread on here so for some of us maybe it is not an oestrogen issue.
I was debating if I should post this Disco as I do not want to make you feel any worse but then thought it may help for you to know you are not alone.
Hi Flossieteacake,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I've been out all day and just about to go out again!
I'm glad you posted it Flossie, you know I'm always very grateful for your advice and I tend to agree, the way I used to sleep until last year was lovely but I'm a realist and understand that that kind of sleep may not come back to me now.
Can I just ask, do you think that maybe low estrogen is not the issue here? If that's the case then me increasing my estrogen won't help.
I don't have hot flushes or night sweats anymore with me it's difficult falling asleep which is anxiety related.
This is by far the hardest thing I have ever had to overcome and I feel I will not overcome it.
Even if there was a pattern to my sleeping but there isn't.
I'm sorry you're having sleep issues, if you are having problems actually getting to sleep then that's the same as me.
I have a sort of plan in as much as, I'm weaning myself off amitrypline slowly, I take it in the mornings but I hate the drug, then I will have a look at hrt to see what I might do with that.
Thanks so very much for your reply, I always value your opinion and I really hope you're okay as well xxxx
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https://www.newsonhealth.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Sleep-and-hormones-v21-02.pdf
An interesting article for you x
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I wonder if it is something some of us have to endure. In the early stages of menopause I used to wake in the early hours and not go back to sleep. I think I had about 5 hours sleep which is not enough for me. Later on I slept better and now I am having sleep issues again. It takes me 2 hours to fall asleep and then I wake through out the night. I then wake up exhausted but cannot go back to sleep at all. I know there is a sleep issue thread on here so for some of us maybe it is not an oestrogen issue.
I was debating if I should post this Disco as I do not want to make you feel any worse but then thought it may help for you to know you are not alone.
Hi Flossieteacake,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I've been out all day and just about to go out again!
I'm glad you posted it Flossie, you know I'm always very grateful for your advice and I tend to agree, the way I used to sleep until last year was lovely but I'm a realist and understand that that kind of sleep may not come back to me now.
Can I just ask, do you think that maybe low estrogen is not the issue here? If that's the case then me increasing my estrogen won't help.
I don't have hot flushes or night sweats anymore with me it's difficult falling asleep which is anxiety related.
This is by far the hardest thing I have ever had to overcome and I feel I will not overcome it.
Even if there was a pattern to my sleeping but there isn't.
I'm sorry you're having sleep issues, if you are having problems actually getting to sleep then that's the same as me.
I have a sort of plan in as much as, I'm weaning myself off amitrypline slowly, I take it in the mornings but I hate the drug, then I will have a look at hrt to see what I might do with that.
Thanks so very much for your reply, I always value your opinion and I really hope you're okay as well xxxx
Please do not apologise. I am glad you are busy and getting out. :)
I really do not know if it lack of oestrogen. I just worry you are holding on to finding the magic number in order for you to sleep and that is causing you more stress. You are sensitive to oestrogen changes and when you rush it you feel unwell. The slow approach has been more beneficial for you.
It is a good idea to taper of Amitryptine and hopefully that will help in the long run.
I am so sorry you are feeling so overwhelmed with this. To se you put it is the hardest thing you have had to overcome shows how distressing you are finding it.
To look at the upside, you no longer have hot flushes or night sweats. I think that is great as they are horrid symptoms. I also feel it is still so early for your hormones to have adjusted and stabilised. You have been on HRT since August which is not very long at all.
Sometimes I think we can compare ourselves to others and it feels like we are falling behind. For example, I see members who have seen massive improvements in their vaginal atrophy but mine is still bad after a year of treatment. I feel menopause is so personal and what one person found helpful may not help another person. I understand you are anxious and just want to be able to sleep but I strongly feel that will only stop you sleeping. I lie awake for about 2 hours every single night before I can sleep. I think people who sleep quickly are very fortunate. :)
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https://www.newsonhealth.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Sleep-and-hormones-v21-02.pdf
An interesting article for you x
Hi Dotty,
Thanks so much I will have a read.
Thank you by the way for faithfully being there for me xx
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I wonder if it is something some of us have to endure. In the early stages of menopause I used to wake in the early hours and not go back to sleep. I think I had about 5 hours sleep which is not enough for me. Later on I slept better and now I am having sleep issues again. It takes me 2 hours to fall asleep and then I wake through out the night. I then wake up exhausted but cannot go back to sleep at all. I know there is a sleep issue thread on here so for some of us maybe it is not an oestrogen issue.
I was debating if I should post this Disco as I do not want to make you feel any worse but then thought it may help for you to know you are not alone.
Hi Flossieteacake,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I've been out all day and just about to go out again!
I'm glad you posted it Flossie, you know I'm always very grateful for your advice and I tend to agree, the way I used to sleep until last year was lovely but I'm a realist and understand that that kind of sleep may not come back to me now.
Can I just ask, do you think that maybe low estrogen is not the issue here? If that's the case then me increasing my estrogen won't help.
I don't have hot flushes or night sweats anymore with me it's difficult falling asleep which is anxiety related.
This is by far the hardest thing I have ever had to overcome and I feel I will not overcome it.
Even if there was a pattern to my sleeping but there isn't.
I'm sorry you're having sleep issues, if you are having problems actually getting to sleep then that's the same as me.
I have a sort of plan in as much as, I'm weaning myself off amitrypline slowly, I take it in the mornings but I hate the drug, then I will have a look at hrt to see what I might do with that.
Thanks so very much for your reply, I always value your opinion and I really hope you're okay as well xxxx
Please do not apologise. I am glad you are busy and getting out. :)
I really do not know if it lack of oestrogen. I just worry you are holding on to finding the magic number in order for you to sleep and that is causing you more stress. You are sensitive to oestrogen changes and when you rush it you feel unwell. The slow approach has been more beneficial for you.
It is a good idea to taper of Amitryptine and hopefully that will help in the long run.
I am so sorry you are feeling so overwhelmed with this. To se you put it is the hardest thing you have had to overcome shows how distressing you are finding it.
To look at the upside, you no longer have hot flushes or night sweats. I think that is great as they are horrid symptoms. I also feel it is still so early for your hormones to have adjusted and stabilised. You have been on HRT since August which is not very long at all.
Sometimes I think we can compare ourselves to others and it feels like we are falling behind. For example, I see members who have seen massive improvements in their vaginal atrophy but mine is still bad after a year of treatment. I feel menopause is so personal and what one person found helpful may not help another person. I understand you are anxious and just want to be able to sleep but I strongly feel that will only stop you sleeping. I lie awake for about 2 hours every single night before I can sleep. I think people who sleep quickly are very fortunate. :)
Hi Flossieteacake,
what words of wisdom as usual.
You're right, I think as well for me, sorry if this sounds lame, but I actually grieve as up until february I slept like a baby, had virtually no symptoms that really bothered me.
I'm so sorry you're having problems falling asleep, do you know why you're having trouble falling asleep?
And yes, I'm determined to get off amity but I'm doing it slowly.
Its' so difficult with the patches and increasing, I do know the wisest thing is to take things slowly as tempting as it is to increase quickly.
Thanks so very very much Flossie, everyone on here has been truly remarkable xxxx
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Hi Flossieteacake,
what words of wisdom as usual.
You're right, I think as well for me, sorry if this sounds lame, but I actually grieve as up until february I slept like a baby, had virtually no symptoms that really bothered me.
I'm so sorry you're having problems falling asleep, do you know why you're having trouble falling asleep?
And yes, I'm determined to get off amity but I'm doing it slowly.
Its' so difficult with the patches and increasing, I do know the wisest thing is to take things slowly as tempting as it is to increase quickly.
Thanks so very very much Flossie, everyone on here has been truly remarkable xxxx
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You do not sound lame at all. To have been sleeping well to not sleeping is horrible and exhausting. I always think nothing beats decent sleep and lack of sleep makes everything feel so much worse.
I do not know why I have trouble falling asleep. Likely just menopause. Maybe one day my sleep will get better but until then I just try to take each day as it comes.
You are so welcome. :)
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Hi Flossieteacake,
what words of wisdom as usual.
You're right, I think as well for me, sorry if this sounds lame, but I actually grieve as up until february I slept like a baby, had virtually no symptoms that really bothered me.
I'm so sorry you're having problems falling asleep, do you know why you're having trouble falling asleep?
And yes, I'm determined to get off amity but I'm doing it slowly.
Its' so difficult with the patches and increasing, I do know the wisest thing is to take things slowly as tempting as it is to increase quickly.
Thanks so very very much Flossie, everyone on here has been truly remarkable xxxx
You do not sound lame at all. To have been sleeping well to not sleeping is horrible and exhausting. I always think nothing beats decent sleep and lack of sleep makes everything feel so much worse.
I do not know why I have trouble falling asleep. Likely just menopause. Maybe one day my sleep will get better but until then I just try to take each day as it comes.
You are so welcome. :)
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My hubby has episodes of poor sleep and his attitude is like your's; I just get really anxious, which doesn't help things xxx
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It is understandable to feel anxious as you are thinking you will never sleep. I still think CBT may benefit you. You can get CBT especially for sleep and I have heard it has helped many.
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I may look into that, I was even thinking about hypnotherapy for it as well xxx
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I may look into that, I was even thinking about hypnotherapy for it as well xxx
CBT is free so perhaps you could give that a go first. You can self refer online too. It is great you have other ideas too.
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Mollydolly what a lovely post, it brought tears to my eyes!!
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Hi Discogirl
I didn't wait too long before I increased it to be honest. As long as you increase it slowly. I went up from the 50 to 62.5. So basically I just added half of a 25 with the 50. It worked a treat. I then tried to go up again to 75 (pushing my luck) but it was too much.
It really is trial and error and we are all so different. It took me ages to get it right. But also remember life gets in the way as well which has an affect on us. So its not just always down to our annoying hormones or lack of. Just try to be kind to yourself and take it slowly. A little exercise, even if its just a nice morning walk along with a healthy diet will help you deal with all this. I promise it does get better and you will get there. This is just the beginning of the other half of your life darling. Take care xx
Hi Mollydolly,
I'm so sorry I haven't responded sooner, however I've been out.
What a lovely lovely post. I've actually been feeling the worst I've felt in a very very long time today.
I was attempting to wean off my 10mg amitrypline by cutting a bit off, this is the third day and boy oh boy has my anxiety shot up. Plus I didn't sleep well again last night.
Spoke to my gp today, he's lovely, and he's given me oestrogel to try to see how I get on with that.
Your post has meant the absolute world to me; thank you from the bottom of my heart xxxx
Lots of love xxxx
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Hi Discogirl
I didn't wait too long before I increased it to be honest. As long as you increase it slowly. I went up from the 50 to 62.5. So basically I just added half of a 25 with the 50. It worked a treat. I then tried to go up again to 75 (pushing my luck) but it was too much.
It really is trial and error and we are all so different. It took me ages to get it right. But also remember life gets in the way as well which has an affect on us. So its not just always down to our annoying hormones or lack of. Just try to be kind to yourself and take it slowly. A little exercise, even if its just a nice morning walk along with a healthy diet will help you deal with all this. I promise it does get better and you will get there. This is just the beginning of the other half of your life darling. Take care xx
:foryou:
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Disco I am so sorry to hear what a bad day you have had. I am glad you have a nice GP as that really helps. I hope you get a better sleep tonight.
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Disco I am so sorry to hear what a bad day you have had. I am glad you have a nice GP as that really helps. I hope you get a better sleep tonight.
I've just messaged you!!!!
I've decided to try the gel; I don't know Flossie, I don't know whether I need to increase the patch strength, but when I do increase my sleep only improves for about 14 days; whether I'm not absorbing the patches or whether my symptoms really aren't menpausal.
I was trying to taper off my amitrypline, I really hate the drug, I'm only on 10mg and I take that in the morning, but my gp says to stay on it at 10mg for the time being so as not to change too much.
I really don't know whether to increase my patch to 62.5 or to take the plunge and try the gel.
I've just heard a lot of women have issues with consistency with the gel; I don't want my estrogen to spike and then plummet xxx
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Disco I am so sorry to hear what a bad day you have had. I am glad you have a nice GP as that really helps. I hope you get a better sleep tonight.
I've just messaged you!!!!
I've decided to try the gel; I don't know Flossie, I don't know whether I need to increase the patch strength, but when I do increase my sleep only improves for about 14 days; whether I'm not absorbing the patches or whether my symptoms really aren't menpausal.
I was trying to taper off my amitrypline, I really hate the drug, I'm only on 10mg and I take that in the morning, but my gp says to stay on it at 10mg for the time being so as not to change too much.
I really don't know whether to increase my patch to 62.5 or to take the plunge and try the gel.
I've just heard a lot of women have issues with consistency with the gel; I don't want my estrogen to spike and then plummet xxx
I totatlly understand your dilema. I thought you may try tapering off amitripiline first and then see how things go. I understand that will take time and it is hard waiting when feeling so bad.
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Disco I am so sorry to hear what a bad day you have had. I am glad you have a nice GP as that really helps. I hope you get a better sleep tonight.
I've just messaged you!!!!
I've decided to try the gel; I don't know Flossie, I don't know whether I need to increase the patch strength, but when I do increase my sleep only improves for about 14 days; whether I'm not absorbing the patches or whether my symptoms really aren't menpausal.
I was trying to taper off my amitrypline, I really hate the drug, I'm only on 10mg and I take that in the morning, but my gp says to stay on it at 10mg for the time being so as not to change too much.
I really don't know whether to increase my patch to 62.5 or to take the plunge and try the gel.
I've just heard a lot of women have issues with consistency with the gel; I don't want my estrogen to spike and then plummet xxx
I totatlly understand your dilema. I thought you may try tapering off amitripiline first and then see how things go. I understand that will take time and it is hard waiting when feeling so bad.
Well I've got the gel, and that's an idea actually that I could just try tapering off the amitrypline first.
I'm doing it slowly, I have a pill cutter and it will probably take a few weeks xxx
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Disco I am so sorry to hear what a bad day you have had. I am glad you have a nice GP as that really helps. I hope you get a better sleep tonight.
I've just messaged you!!!!
I've decided to try the gel; I don't know Flossie, I don't know whether I need to increase the patch strength, but when I do increase my sleep only improves for about 14 days; whether I'm not absorbing the patches or whether my symptoms really aren't menpausal.
I was trying to taper off my amitrypline, I really hate the drug, I'm only on 10mg and I take that in the morning, but my gp says to stay on it at 10mg for the time being so as not to change too much.
I really don't know whether to increase my patch to 62.5 or to take the plunge and try the gel.
I've just heard a lot of women have issues with consistency with the gel; I don't want my estrogen to spike and then plummet xxx
I totatlly understand your dilema. I thought you may try tapering off amitripiline first and then see how things go. I understand that will take time and it is hard waiting when feeling so bad.
Well I've got the gel, and that's an idea actually that I could just try tapering off the amitrypline first.
I'm doing it slowly, I have a pill cutter and it will probably take a few weeks xxx
That is a good idea. Nice and slow to avoid any side effects. :)
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Hi Discogirl
You’re not alone with all this. I and many other of the ladies on here have done exactly what you’re doing. It’s all trial and error. It’s all so new for you as well. It’s taken me sooo long to realise what is right for me and it was so easy to get my myself het up especially if I had a few nights of insomnia. I was in a right state at times. But just take one day at a time and it will all soon become clearer.
I actually used to like the gel although I felt a little a nauseous a short while after application. And then that wears off and I felt great. The reason i stopped was I kept waking up during the night as if the gel had worn off and then I tried applying at night which was the worst decision ever as I got wired and agitated. Tossing and turning all night. So I think for me the patch was much more steady. I somehow feel much calmer and steady on the patch.
Before you know it all this anxiety will be a distant memory. Better days are just around the corner lovely. Keep going. Xx
HI Mollydolly,
Thank you for sharing your experiences with the gel.
You're right it is trial and error, I can only try the gel and if it doesn't work maybe go back to the patch.
Can I ask what patch you're currently using?
I'm on estraderm 50 but to be honest, I increased from 25 to 37.5 after a few weeks then to 50. It just seemed that everytime I increased I slept fairly well for a few nights, then it was back to not sleeping.
Thank you so very much for your encouragement, your words have really really helped me today.
Thank you so very very much xxxx
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Sorry to hear you are struggling, as the other ladies have said, try one thing at once. Don’t try and reduce your medication at the same time as changing your hrt.
Take one step at a time, so you can see what’s happening?
Just a thought, you are on Estraderm, I’m sure I’ve read that they are quite big patches, have you thought of swapping to Estradot which are small and stick well.
For what it’s worth, I hated my antidepressant medication when I first started it, but I’ve come to realise that it works perfectly, only when my hormones are balanced.
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Sorry to hear you are struggling, as the other ladies have said, try one thing at once. Don’t try and reduce your medication at the same time as changing your hrt.
Take one step at a time, so you can see what’s happening?
Just a thought, you are on Estraderm, I’m sure I’ve read that they are quite big patches, have you thought of swapping to Estradot which are small and stick well.
For what it’s worth, I hated my antidepressant medication when I first started it, but I’ve come to realise that it works perfectly, only when my hormones are balanced.
Hi MIS71MUM,
Yes you're right about taking stuff one step at a time; I will get off the ADs but I know it will take time.
The estraderm are big patches, that didn't bother me it was just when I increased which weren't big increases my symptoms only went away for about 14 days.
I can only try the gel and go back to patches if the gel doesn't work.
Thanks so very much for your advice and for taking the time to reply xxx