Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: discogirl on October 30, 2022, 08:39:19 AM
-
I'm still having awful problems with sleeping.
I know I need to give the patches time, I was on 37.5 for just over a month then last saturday increased to 50mcg.
But i'm desperate for my sleep to be sorted. Its not actually being able to get to sleep in the first place.
I have no hot flushes or night sweats anymore, but although I'm tired my mind just won't stop, it feels wired, not actually worries about anything.
Problem is all this anxiety/ sleep issues started the same time as I developed tinnitus, now my tinnitus doesn't bother me anymore but my sleep is still very poor and I used to always sleep well.
Im worried about increasing my estrogen too soon, as I understand the problems associated with increasing too soon, but i really don't think I can continue this for another 3 months
I'm beginning to wonder if my sleep issues are even menopausal related now x
-
Would it help to ask your GP for a short term stronger sleeping pill to try and break the sleepless pattern ? ...sleep is so important.
-
hi minusminnie
thanks for your reply.
i realky dont want to go down the sleeping pills issue as they usually just mask the problem and sometimes makes it worse.
thanks so much for the reply though i appreciate it x
-
Hi unfortunately it’s a waiting game. Sleep is usually one of the last things to be alleviated. I’ve been there and I know exactly what you mean about feeling wired . It’s not a nice feeling.
I think you’ve not been on a high enough dose to give you optimum benefits . Give the 50 patch a month and if there are no improvements I would move to 75. I’d been on hrt for 7 months before my sleep improved. Once I was on the right type and dose, my sleep improved in a month.
People kept telling me that hrt is not a quick fix and they were right. But it does work wonderfully (for me ) .
-
thanks dotty.
i keep reading your message you sent me.
thanks for your continuing support x
-
Hi unfortunately it’s a waiting game. Sleep is usually one of the last things to be alleviated. I’ve been there and I know exactly what you mean about feeling wired . It’s not a nice feeling.
I think you’ve not been on a high enough dose to give you optimum benefits . Give the 50 patch a month and if there are no improvements I would move to 75. I’d been on hrt for 7 months before my sleep improved. Once I was on the right type and dose, my sleep improved in a month.
People kept telling me that hrt is not a quick fix and they were right. But it does work wonderfully (for me ) .
you know as well dotty its almost as though ive forgotten how to sleep.
can i ask dotty my lack of sleep isnt related to hot flushes or sweats mine is not being able to fall asleep in the first place.
what were your problems with sleeping dotty xx
-
Hi I went to bed tired and then couldn’t go to sleep. Would lie awake for hours. Then if I did go to sleep, I’d wake after half an hour.
At my worst, my sleep was horrendous. I can’t even explain it. I felt like I was on constant high alert, like adrenaline was constantly on. It was frightening and horrible.
Once I started sleeping I realised that I probably had t slept right for years.
I kept a diary which helped me to see if I was improving. The diary shows I was up and down with sleep until it settled.
I tried everything….all the herbal remedies, and the Nytol with the sleep aid in it. I did all the sleep hygiene stuff and tried hypnosis and meditation. Nothing worked till I was on 4 pumps of Oestrogel. x
-
I am sorry to hear you are not sleeping Discogirl. It is awful not to sleep and I feel everything feels so much worse and more difficult without decent sleep. It is a pity you cannot nap in the afternoon to catch up.
Patience is so difficult when we struggle. I believe your body needs time to adjust to the new oestrogen levels. I know that is no help when you desperately need to sleep now. I am thinking of you.
-
thank you so much flossieteacake i appreciate you being here for me xxxx
-
Hi discogirl
Sorry to hear that you’re still having sleep issues.
I wonder if you should try switching your 100mg Utro back to the evening?
I know you didn’t find it helpful that way before, but sometimes things change and it might be worth giving it another go perhaps.
M x
-
Hi
Have you tried magnesium glycinate? It really helped me.
Nik xx
-
Hi discogirl
Sorry to hear that you’re still having sleep issues.
I wonder if you should try switching your 100mg Utro back to the evening?
I know you didn’t find it helpful that way before, but sometimes things change and it might be worth giving it another go perhaps.
M x
Hi marchlove,
I could try the utro at night, I use it PV,
I suppose I'm scared of it disturbing my sleep and scared of changing something again, but you know what it's worth a go xx
Do you literally take it as you get into bed, as once I'm in bed I usually need to get up after about 15 mins to pee again, but that won't necessarily make the utro come out will it xx
-
Hi
Have you tried magnesium glycinate? It really helped me.
Nik xx
Hi Nik 2502
Yes I use magnesium bis-glycinate I take 2 just before bed xx
-
Hi discogirl
I don’t know the answer to that I’m afraid.
Could you not wait until after the pee and then insert it?
The other thing you could try is taking the magnesium earlier, say after supper or 2/3 hours before bed.
Perhaps try this first and see how you get on.
Mx
-
Hi Marchlove,
Yes I could try taking the magnesium earlier.
Thing is the utro, is that many women on here finds that it disturbs their sleep, so not sure if taking it before bed would work, as I take it in the mornings already, it doesn't sedate me, so I was figuring that taking it at night wouldn't change anything. (I mean if it doesn't sedate me in the mornings, it wouldn't sedate me at night)
I was thinking of stopping the utro for a week to see if my sleep improves just to see if it's that x
I just feel it's all a minefield. Its either, my estroge is low and it hasn't built up sufficiently, or I'm not absorbing the estrogen through the patches or the utro is affecting my sleep, but I don't know which x
-
I think your right in that if it doesn't sedate you in the morning it is unlikely to at night. It doesn't sedate me, it seems to be so variable among people.
I found it was the estrogen which prevented me from going to sleep at night, hence I take mine in the morning in one hit. You could try stopping the Utro for a week and see if that helps if not my suggestion would be to change to a gel.
But start my taking the magnesium earlier first to see if that has any impact.
M x
-
hi marchlove
thats what im thinking that it could be the estrogen affecting my sleep at night.
i want to try the gel but ive only just increased my patch to 50 last saturday so i dont know what to do.
how do you find your sleep now that you take the gel in the morning marchlove xx
-
I wonder if changing your magnesium to three in one, it certainly helped me sleep.
-
3 in 1?
the reason i chose glycinate is that thats the one that helps to calm.and relax.
other magnesiums dont as much. mag citrate i think is an excitory or more of a stimulant x
-
Not sure about the 3 in 1 as never tried it, but you could increase your dosage from 2 to 3.
I have no problem in getting to sleep. I wake about 4am for a pee and usually awake about an hour and then get a couple more hours. So I get about 7.
I’ve no idea why I wake at this time!
I’m not anxious when I do, I feel quite drowsy but it just takes that long to finally go off again. So that bit is still work in progress for me. But it’s good enough.
Mx
-
yes i get you i could try that.
my issue us getting to sleep i can awake for hrs.
problem is this started the same time ss i got tinnitus. but gp put me on amity 10mg which i take in the morning but it really helped my tinnitus.
so when my tinnitis was under control or at least not bothering me i expected my sleep to return but it didnt.
thats when i decided to try hrt x
-
Why do you take amitriptyline in the morning? My understanding is that you are supposed to take it at night.
It is prescribed for people with insomnia among other things and certainly when I used to take it I took it at night.
Do some research on it discogirl, but that’s my understanding of it.
M x
-
Why do you take amitriptyline in the morning? My understanding is that you are supposed to take it at night.
It is prescribed for people with insomnia among other things and certainly when I used to take it I took it at night.
Do some research on it discogirl, but that’s my understanding of it.
M x
hi marchlove
gosh the amount of stuff ive read about amit.
initially i took it at night and it did help me sleep however with amitry and other tricyclic ADs you quickly develop a tolerance so it helped me for about 8 wks and after that had no effect on my sleep.
i take it for nerve pain (tinnitus) so i take it in the mornings now. i only take 10mg.
i really want to come off it but coming off amit is a whole different ball game!!
-
The same thing happened with me!
I was put on it by an infectious disease expert, god knows why, as I didn’t have any sleep issues at all prior to taking it. I should have questioned and researched but those were the days when I still trusted what I was given.
I very quickly started to get insomnia and then actually developed tinnitus for the first time ever!
So I weaned myself off it very very slowly. The tinnitus I still have but it comes and goes and doesn’t really bother me much now.
I did have very mild anxiety before starting amit but it got far far worse when I was on it so I knew it was a no no for me.
It’s not easy coming off but if you reduce slowly you’ll be ok.
Bless you, what a carry on
Mx
-
The same thing happened with me!
I was put on it by an infectious disease expert, god knows why, as I didn’t have any sleep issues at all prior to taking it. I should have questioned and researched but those were the days when I still trusted what I was given.
I very quickly started to get insomnia and then actually developed tinnitus for the first time ever!
So I weaned myself off it very very slowly. The tinnitus I still have but it comes and goes and doesn’t really bother me much now.
I did have very mild anxiety before starting amit but it got far far worse when I was on it so I knew it was a no no for me.
It’s not easy coming off but if you reduce slowly you’ll be ok.
Bless you, what a carry on
Mx
the half life of amit is quite long i believe.
did you get insomnia when you were using amitry? if so i wonder if that caused it.
my tinnitus comes and goes as well but doesnt really bother me.
weaning off the drug is hard as it means cutting the pill which is small anyway.
i know i'll get rebound insomnia but im determined to get off it.
did your tinnitus start around the time of your menopause?
low estrogen can trigger tinnitus x
-
I didn’t have insomnia at all until after I started Amitriptyline and yes my belief is that it caused it.
No, my tinnitus didn’t begin until after I started Amit.
I think your on 10mg is that correct?
If your determined to come off it you should of course speak to your Gp and get yourself a pill cutter.
I found it was the final reductions that were the hardest but initially from memory I started by taking 7.5mg for a few weeks and then went down to 5mg and so on.
In the end I was literally taking a small crumb which I then took this every other day and then stopped.
I think their are forums regarding how to do this, so have a look.
M x
-
I didn’t have insomnia at all until after I started Amitriptyline and yes my belief is that it caused it.
No, my tinnitus didn’t begin until after I started Amit.
I think your on 10mg is that correct?
If your determined to come off it you should of course speak to your Gp and get yourself a pill cutter.
I found it was the final reductions that were the hardest but initially from memory I started by taking 7.5mg for a few weeks and then went down to 5mg and so on.
In the end I was literally taking a small crumb which I then took this every other day and then stopped.
I think their are forums regarding how to do this, so have a look.
M x
that was always my belief that its the amit that messes with sleep and even though i take it first thing the drug has quite long half life.
yes i take 10mg.
what dosage were you on?
did you get any rebound insomnia after stopping it? how long were you on it?
i will speak to my gp he is really understanding.
i needed the amitr at first to help with the tinnitus but now it comes and goes and doesnt bother me as much.
its intersting your tinnitus started after using the drug. did you find your tinnitus reduced when you stopped the drug.
ive taken up such a lot of your time but im so grateful.
its just you and i have tinnitus and you had sleep issues so we've quite a lot in common.
thank you so much xxx
-
This was five years ago discogirl, but from memory I started on 20mg.
I reduced to 10mg in advice from my specialist and stayed on it for almost 2 years before starting the weaning process.
I didn’t get a rebound as such because my sleep was awful anyway and there were so many other factors involved.
The main one being I took myself off off hrt cold turkey at the same time which in hindsight was a big mistake.
It took me quite awhile to start hrt again by which time I was in a bit of a mess.
So my story won’t be yours. Upshot of my story is stay on the hrt whilst you wean off.
Tinnitus didn’t resile completely coming off but very liveable with.
Xx
-
Hey
I’ve had a horrible history of not sleeping, but it’s gotten a lot better
Magnesium (a good brand) has really helped, this is going to sound odd but it really works …. If I wake up, In go to the toilet immediately and when I get back into bed keep telling myself that everything is ok, you’re ok, everything is going to be fine …and just keep repeating that .,,,,,,, (therapist advice)….and it actually works, as some that is deeply anxious and spent hours luring in bed just worrying over nothing
-
This was five years ago discogirl, but from memory I started on 20mg.
I reduced to 10mg in advice from my specialist and stayed on it for almost 2 years before starting the weaning process.
I didn’t get a rebound as such because my sleep was awful anyway and there were so many other factors involved.
The main one being I took myself off off hrt cold turkey at the same time which in hindsight was a big mistake.
It took me quite awhile to start hrt again by which time I was in a bit of a mess.
So my story won’t be yours. Upshot of my story is stay on the hrt whilst you wean off.
Tinnitus didn’t resile completely coming off but very liveable with.
Xx
no i dont plan to come off hrt
i would like to try the gel but i will hsve to wait as ive inly just gone up to the 50 patch and want to get settled on this dose first.
at least with the gel i can take it in the morning. that way theres less to mess with my sleep
are you managing to get the gel ok as i thought there were supply issues x
-
Hey
I’ve had a horrible history of not sleeping, but it’s gotten a lot better
Magnesium (a good brand) has really helped, this is going to sound odd but it really works …. If I wake up, In go to the toilet immediately and when I get back into bed keep telling myself that everything is ok, you’re ok, everything is going to be fine …and just keep repeating that .,,,,,,, (therapist advice)….and it actually works, as some that is deeply anxious and spent hours luring in bed just worrying over nothing
hi carmen
thanks so much for your reply.
im glad your sleep is better.
with me its the actual dropping off once im.asleep im ok but i can lie there for hours.
i try controlled brrathing and stuff.
i miss how i used to sleep :(
-
Sorry for earlier typos was serving up supper!
Yes it can be hit and miss getting the gel I believe but not too sure about the current situation.
Mx
-
thats ok marchlove.
what gel do you use x
-
I’m on ultra low dose compounded.
So, it’s just low dose whatever gel is available if that’s the route you decide to go down.
M x
-
Hi discogirl, sorry to hear you’re still not sleeping. Personally I would not be sleeping if I did not take Utrogestan before bed. I highly recommend you take it before bed. It doesn’t have a strong sedative effect it just seems to help me sleep for longer in one go and more deeply so I feel more refreshed when I wake up. Before I took utrogestan I used to wake up in the morning feeling like I’d just shut my eyes all night. Now I feel like I’ve really rested. I don’t think anything else would have worked for me. I’ve tried everything including nytol, all the good habits, etc but this is the only thing I’ve ever found that has worked for me.
-
I’m on ultra low dose compounded.
So, it’s just low dose whatever gel is available if that’s the route you decide to go down.
M x
marchlove, you know how the patches distribute so much estrogen over 24hrs. is that the same with the gel. that its distributed over 24 hrs x
-
Hi discogirl
I don’t believe so. This has not been my experience anyway.
I did some research awhile ago about our natural estrogen daily rhythm and
the studies said that our estrogen is at its highest in the morning with another 3 peaks and troughs throughout the day, then reaching a low point throughout the night.
So based on this I decided that the best time to dose was in the a.m.
M x
-
Actually looking again it seems there is a smaller peak at 3am.
Have a look at this graph, goodness knows how we’re supposed to replicate that!!
https://eje.bioscientifica.com/downloadpdf/journals/eje/148/2/227.pdf
A 24 hour patch perhaps!
-
Hello ladies.
Marchlove - Your information about the natural peaks and troughs of Oestrogen are very interesting. Although I am post meno and on HRT I am convinced that I am still on a daily cycle of ups and downs. I seem to experience changes every four hours but they usually stabilise in the evening. Unfortunately the rollercoaster begins again the next day!
Discogirl - I assume that the gel is effective for 24 hours otherwise we would be instructed to use it twice in a day. Whether it's effectiveness wears off over that time is another matter. Some ladies report that a three and a half day patch only really lasts for three days but again absorption rates vary.
Take care ladies.
K.
-
Hi discogirl
Poor sleep was the worst symptom for me too. I started on a 25 patch with utrogeston for the last 2 weeks of the month (I’m peri). It didn’t help, but once I got to a 75 patch my sleep improved slowly but surely and after 2 weeks I was sleeping through the night and waking refreshed. Hang in there!
-
Hi Kathleen
Well I suppose our adrenals follow the circadian rhythm once our ovaries go south post menopause.
I agree, my mood, which isn’t too bad really, is always better in the evening.
I have an issue with early waking at 4am’ish for about an hour and I’m wondering if that due to me not getting a mini peak of estrogen at 3am followed by a trough. I’m not anxious when I awake but just can’t go straight back to sleep.
I don’t take an AD any longer but take otc 5mg lithium orotate at breakfast and lunch and this has been very helpful regarding my mood swings. If I don’t take it I get them.
I have more physical symptoms which I think is more thyroid related.
Mx
-
Actually looking again it seems there is a smaller peak at 3am.
Have a look at this graph, goodness knows how we’re supposed to replicate that!!
https://eje.bioscientifica.com/downloadpdf/journals/eje/148/2/227.pdf
A 24 hour patch perhaps!
thanks so much for that info marchlove im away until tomorrow so i will have a proper look when i get back.
hi kathleen
yes your right. i just wondered though you know with the patches they release a steady amount of estrogen over 24hr period i wondered if the gel was the same x
-
Hi discogirl
Poor sleep was the worst symptom for me too. I started on a 25 patch with utrogeston for the last 2 weeks of the month (I’m peri). It didn’t help, but once I got to a 75 patch my sleep improved slowly but surely and after 2 weeks I was sleeping through the night and waking refreshed. Hang in there!
hi wragmop
that gives me hope thank you!
im post meno and have just gone up to a 50 patch which im sticking with until jan x
-
Hi Mollydolly,
Thanks so much for your reply.
Yes regarding utro I know many women cannot tolerate it; I take my utro in the morning and I also take it vaginally to lessen any side effects.
I have tried to be very careful with my patches. My estrogen when I got my levels checked before I started HRT, which was end of June were only 19pmo/L which I understand is low. However being post meno I expected that. So my gp, who is lovely, he put me on estraderm 25, then on 13th sept I increased to 37.5 which I stayed on until the other saturday when I increased to 50.
Its interesting regarding where to put them for maximum absorption, I always use my butt cheeks, as I read some research that indicated absorption is 20% on butt cheeks, but I know a few women who do put them on their abdomen, it's trial and error I guess.
Thanks so much for your advice it all really helps me xx Are you still on utro 7 days per month now by the way and have you tried using them vaginally x
-
thanks for that i may try it there.
ive only just gone up to a 50 patch and i want to give body time to adjust x