Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: CrispyChick on September 30, 2022, 06:36:18 PM
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My own estrogen has just tested at 2089. I take absolutely no estrogen. It was 221 pmol in March.
I have bad effects of high estrogen e. g nausea and dizziness.
Is this a ridiculous level for my own body to churn out? I'm 46. In peri.
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That’s a high estrogen result Crispy!
I believe you only take transdermal progesterone, so this seems quite a strange test result.
Did you have your progesterone level tested as well and if so what was the result?
Hope you feeling ok tonight as it must be a bit overwhelming trying to decipher it all.
M x
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Hi Crispychick
Oestrogen levels vary hugely during peri - this is generally known - so I don't know why it is being measured? Really this is unnecessary and I may suggest unhelpful especially if you are not supplementing with HRT - because it may be causing extra worry. You may have ovulated or it maybe that your body is "trying" to ovulate.
There is an excellent account here which I've only just skimmed through parts of it ( did read years ago!):
https://www.glowm.com/section-view/heading/Endocrinology%20of%20the%20Perimenopausal%20Woman/item/82#
Here is a quote:
"An important but often clinically frustrating aspect of the perimenopause is that estradiol levels do not gradually decrease; instead, they fluctuate greatly around the normal range until menopause, when no more responsive follicles are available.26 The anovulatory cycles often seen may be associated with elevated levels of estradiol.14, 17 Thus, as a woman ages, there is not a progressive downward spiral in the estrogenic milieu, but instead a "roller-coaster" in estrogen production."
As you are still young, and if you are concerned about the oestrogen spikes and their effect on you, you can suppress the cycle/ovulation with one of the gentle combined contraceptive pills like Qlaira which contain estradiol.
Please try not to worry and I would suggest - stop having blood tests - I hope it helps to know that these fluctuations are completely normal!
Hurdity x
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Thanks for the replies.
Yes, March, I'm taking progesterone only. Since my peri started I've had normal estrogen levels and my progesterone has been through the floor. But now it seems my estrogen is through the roof and my prog is still through the floor - despite supplementing. I'm told it's all about ratio and my ratio is very very off.
Thanks hurdity. I've been at this for years and I've tried a lot of pills - they either made me worse or gave me bad side affects. So I'm on a new path.
The reason for the tests is I feel dire. It's like my estrogen is poisoning me. This tests was in my luteal phase, 6 days before my period. A very short trial of hrt 2 years ago - and the estrogen alone gave me this same feeling. That's when I realised I didn't need estrogen. But estrigen and the pill are all I am offered.
So anyway, I'm now taking prog only. There is a phenomenon talked about in the literature (mostly American /Canadian) about how high estrogen in the absence of sufficient prog tunes down your estrogen receptors. Then when you add prog this allows the estrogen receptors to re sensitise. I'm wondering if this is what has happened. But I'm unclear if sensitising my receptors would actually increase blood levels of estrogen.
Any ideas?
The reason for the bloods hurdity is I'm so unbalanced, I feel so ill and poisoned by my own estrogen. I'm hoping to get my prog up. X
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Hello CrispyChick
I am sorry that you are suffering and that certainly is a mighty amount of oestrogen you have at the moment.
As we know balance is key but of course that is easier said than done.
Can I ask what your symptoms are at the moment?
I am following the advice of a consultant who suggested that I reduce my HRT and I am trying to learn all I can about the symptoms of oestrogen dominance.
Your comment about feeling poisoned certainly resonates with me.
I hope you find a resolution soon as feeling off balance is an exhausting experience.
Wishing you well.
K.
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Thanks Kathleen.
Yes, I definitely feel poisoned when my estrogen is high. It's hard to explain but I feel woozy and vile. Nauseous with motion sickness. Then extreme fatigue abd aches too.
When at my worst I get severe pressure in my ears.
I'd definitely question it if you feel bad on higher estrogen. They don't seem to believe in estrogen dominance in UK. But my own body creates this in me. Yet the NHS suggested I take estrogen. Mind blowing.
X
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Hello again CrispyChick.
Thank you so much for responding.
I began HRT three years after my last period and over time I have experienced many of the physical symptoms of the menopause however the emotional symptoms have never completely resolved. I was told that HRT often doesn't help with these. As a consequence I have always been given more and more oestrogen.
After being on a high dose and having painful breasts and heavy bleeding I am now lowering my Oestrogen. I have been doing some research and found that mood swings can also be a symptom of too much Oestrogen. I am wondering if my issues have been made worse because I have been oestrogen dominant.
I don't have the symptoms you list but I do feel wobbly, jittery, tired, panicky and tearful.
I don't have any of the more usual symptoms of low Oestrogen such as poor sleep, vaginal dryness or bladder problems etc.
I am hoping to speak to an NHS consultant to find out more and I will if course update the forum.
It seems possible that some women have oestrogen dominance throughout their lives and this may explain why focusing on this hormone creates more imbalance with some of us.
Thanks again for your comments and I wish you luck in finding the regime that suits you.
Take care.
K.
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Thanks Kathleen
I think you're making a good start by considering this.
I have felt jittery avd panicky before too. Not I'd say that has calmed for me just now, it's just the awful poisoned feeling . It's vile.
I've been really bad today. I'm in follicular phase, so I guess estrogen is ramping back up.
Although my bloods were a shock. I'm actually glad they've shown the huge imbalance, it means I have a reason why i feel so bad.
Im going to try calcium d glucarate as it helps lower toxins and estrogen by upregulating their excretion. X
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Hello again CrispyChick
I like your thinking! Anything and everything is worth trying in an effort to find some hormonal balance.
I wish you luck and let us know how you get on.
Take care.
K.
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Crispy, these people churn out some very good products, I'm currently trialling Darstin myself and it brilliant. I'm already using Oestraclin. I've no idea if you have this brand in the UK but here are the details:
https://lab-seid.com/salud-femenina/darstin/?lang=en#toggle-id-5
Might be worth a try?
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Thanks Mary
It does seem like my route of administration of prog may be causing my problem. Possibly not absorbing enough. Probably time for a change.
Thanks for the info. X
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Morning, I am one that has massive spikes and drops in Estrogen. I did so many blood tests and finally worked out that they are just surges and not what the levels are all of the time. I can actually feel normal at times when I get the spikes in Estrogen but it doesn’t last long. I feel poisoned when I’m low and fluctuating, I’ve been very Ill at times over the last 3 1/2 years because of declining and fluctuations hormones, I really didn’t think I would make it. I have posted previously about it but I did a range of tests in my quest to work out what was happening to me on and off HRT because I was led to believe because of bloods that I was absorbing the HRT but not getting better. I did tests almost daily over a 3 week period and every one was wildly different, lowest was 457, highest was over 5000pmol. My specialist has agreed that I should not do anymore Estrogen bloods whilst I’m in this chaotic stage of peri ( I’m 54). In total over the 3 1/2 years I’ve done roughly 20 Estrogen tests and only 2 came back low the others were normal, high to off the charts high. The stress that doing these tests have caused was enormous because it felt like I was constantly trying to prove that my Estrogen was low because of my symptoms but just couldn’t prove it will tests and really we shouldn’t have to. Our ovaries can chuck out enormous amounts of Estrogen at this time so it’s not unusual. Treating the symptoms is the most important thing.
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Hello again ladies.
Floo36 - thank you for a very helpful post. You have managed to prove what many of us suspect and I'm sorry that doing so came at such a cost. You have certainly had a chaotic time but hopefully a more stable post meno is ahead ( I had my last period at your age).
Wishing you well.
K.
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Yes, thanks floo. You make some good points there.
I think I am probably done with bloods. I might do a sneaky saliva just to confirm if I've been absorbing prog or not (topical shows in saliva I believe).
That said, I actually feel better about my situation since receiving that result. I'm the opposite to you. I think my problems are caused by the high estrogen and, whilst it obviously spikes up and down, for the most part I feel dreadfully ill because mine is too high, or, shall I say, too high in comparison to my prog. So I am totally unbalanced.
I feel best on day 2 to 5...then it all ramps back up again. A little respite following ovulation then back to hell again. >:( like you, this has been going on a very long time. But I am worse at the moment - and those bloods indicate why.
I agree, treating the symptoms is the most important thing. But as its my estrigen making me ill, I struggle to treat it, as the NHS will only offer me further estrogen. I've tried it and that's when I first realised estrogen was not my friend.
So I am trying to treat my symptoms with prog only - but clearly it's not working ;D. If I don't laugh, I will most definitely cry!
Thanks ladies x
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Crispy, I'm so sorry you have had to deal with this alone and without much decent support or advice from the medical profession.
I had exactly the same problem myself for a number of years but in my case, it was oestrogen spikes, low progesterone and the resulting silent migraines. I still find it hard to comprehend why so many doctors were incapable of properly diagnosing my condition. I have had to mostly work things out for myself and make my own decisions on medication.
It's interesting that the NHS deny the very existence of oestrogen dominance (aka oestrogen spikes) yet they don't appear to have any better ideas and from what you have said, they seem to have been unable to help you.
There is a good reason why some people refer to oestrogen spikes as oestrogen dominance. In the very first stages of the menopause, progesterone goes west before oestrogen and this loss of progesterone is then made worse by oestrogen becoming unstable and very often spiking. This was the chain of events that originally triggered my silent migraines but other women develop a number of other conditions like panic attacks, anxiety and depression for example.
Sorry to ask but are you taking any other medication like ADs for example?
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Hello again ladies.
I have been a patient of Newson Health for two years and they too have assumed that I needed more and more oestrogen. At one time my levels were 600pmol/L and I was told that I should be feeling good, especially as my testosterone ( also prescribed by them ) was also at a good level.
I was expecting to hear why the standard treatment wasn't working and to be offered an alternative approach. I knew from this site that many ladies struggle with HRT so it couldn't just be me. Unfortunately no other course of action was offered.
Before joining NH I had a brief telephone conversation with an NHS consultant who had found that too much Oestrogen caused problems of its own and he advised me to lower my dose.
I am now following his advice ( better late than never) and I hope to speak to him again soon.
I now wonder if the extreme anxiety that appeared three years after my last period was infact due to higher Oestrogen/ lower progesterone in which case the standard treatment was never going to work.
I will of course update the forum after speaking to the consultant, whenever that may be. In the meantime I will carry on with my experiment and try not to go too mad in the process lol.
There has to be a reason why the standard treatment doesn't help some of us and perhaps we will be the group that finally works it out!.
Wishing you all well ladies.
K.
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Wouldn’t that be wonderful Kathleen!
Let us know how you get on xxxx
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Thanks ladies.
Kathleen - that is very interesting. Certainly, through my troubles and searches, I have come across post meno ladies who only take prog. The reason cited is that estrogen hides out in our cells, so serum measurements are never accurate and you can indeed be estrogen dominant post meno they say.
Currently the hiding out in the cells bit is what I'm interested in, as the limited info I have come across suggests it is this very hidden estrogen that can move back into action when you start supplementing prog... My figures certainly read like this has happened and my symptoms sure as hell feel like it.
Mary - thank you for your lovely post. It is indeed crazy that noone can assist with this. Never mind the NHS, even my private BHRT clinic denied prog could increase my estrogen to start with. I really do feel quite alone.
Im on lots of vits and minerals in an attempt to address all this. I have, for a very long time been on a tiny dose of escitaopram. Don't think it does anything, but equally, I'm not going to rock the boat by stopping it. I was on it long before all this... Interestingly for post natal anxiety. I now believe it was probably low prog back then too.
So on I plod. There don't seem to be many (any) women on this forum who take only progesterone. Quite interesting. Other countries are full of them. As you rightly say, progesterone is known to head south much earlier than estrogen - are we to assume only a few of us are affected??? I think that unlikely.
Good luck Kathleen. I hope this is your solution xx
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Crispy you mention you tried Estrogen a couple of weeks ago - what kind was it? Was this a finger prick blood test? Just wondering if it could be contaminated (has happened to me several times).
Blood tests have been and comtinue to be extremely useful for me in Peri. I have never found any personal truth in the supposed extreme fluctuations by the day - obviously yes if you're talking about single or double digits, but I've been testing mine pretty much monthly for over a year and there is a reliable pattern (to within say 100 pmol) if you test on the same day or thereabouts of your cycle. My NHS meno specialist also said there isn't large fluctuations like that (in the sense that blood tests are rendered pointless). If your levels fluctuated giganticly day to day your body wouldn't know when to ovulate or have a period etc.
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Thanks Gilla.
That's useful to know. Good to hear a other opinion on testing. Like I say, despite the shock, this blood test has been kind of reassuring in a sense since it explains why I feel so dire.
Estrogen - did I say weeks? My mistake if I did. I only tried estrogen 2 years ago. There is definitely 1000% no chance of estrogen contamination with me ;D
Just out of interest gilla - what are your levels when you feel good? I know you've said before.
Also - I know you were trying to increase prog to better balance your estrogen. How are you getting on?
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Crispy, this is just a thought but my migraine specialist initially suggested I try escitaopram but it was a complete disaster within the first week. It caused restless legs and far from preventing migraine aura, it actually caused them.
I know you are not a migraine sufferer but I wonder if there might be a better AD for you to try?
I'm finding that amitriptyline is a really good regulator at a low dose.
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Thanks Mary.
Are u saying the escitslopram may be contributing to my problems?? I'm only on 5mg.
My gp actually had me increase the escitalopram a few years ago - to try and tackle all this. Funnily ebough, it didnt work. I'm very sensitive and it was hellish.
To be honest, I don't think I need it at all. But I'm just not prepared to rock that boat at the moment.
Im not planning on trying another AD as I'm 99% sure the majority of my issues are hornonal. Certainly, mood wise, since increasing my prog, my moods have levelled out.
Im glad you found something to work. It's such a long process of trial and lots of error. Xx
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Crispy you probably did say years.... blame my Menopause brain :D
That's a difficult question to answer for sure but generally I would say 700-800 pmol (luteal phase). However I do still have an ongoing question around whether that is simply the level my body has gotten used to because I've pumped it full of HRT, vs the actual level I need, if that makes sense? This is purely because I don't understand how HRT can have caused me to gain 1.5 stone in weight rapidly (plus constipation) if that was the "right" level my body needed.
If there's no chance of E contamination then that is an awfully high E reading and at least explains why you've been feeling SO dreadful??
No news on my front really... tried increasing the Cyclogest to 2/3 of a pessary twice a day and was ok for about 5 days but had my insomnia the last couple of nights, which may or may not be related. I've dropped back to half a pessary (100mg) twice a day anyway and as that's the level I seem to be able to tolerate well I'll probably switch back to Utro now as it's less faff having to cut something in half.
So what's your plan now? xx
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Crispy, I was also taking 5mg escitalopram and it made me feel really terrible. Obviously everyone reacts very differently to medication but if you happen to react very badly to escitalopram, it is going to have a drag effect and make your overall symptoms seem much worse. I noticed that it has a very narrow band of dosage ie 5mg to 20mg think. Escitalopram is prescribed mostly for depression but it is often used to treat (or perhaps I should say mask) menopause symptoms which is rather strange because I found it caused excess sweating and made me feel 'tinny' and' hollow' sorry, it's difficult to describe!
Amitriptyline treats a wider range of conditions and works in a different way ie it's an old fashioned TCA. The dosage range is huge (10mg - 200mg I think) and it is not only used to treat depression. At lower doses it acts as a kind of body regulator and successfully treats IBS-C, prevents all types of migraine, relieves pain and as an added bonus I have found it regulates spiking blood pressure. Even at lower doses, it can help borderline anxiety and depression but I was initially attracted to it because it works particularly well on cortical spreading depression (CSD) which causes my migraine auras - in some people, CSD can cause odd muscle twitches, numbness, crashing mood, sudden extreme fatigue and weird creeping body sensations.
I deeply regret allowing myself to being scared off ADs. I didn't realise that at a low dose, they prevent migraines and so much more.
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Thank you ladies. I will have a good think about all this.
One thing is certain - my estrogen is sky high and im feeling dreadful. I am most definitely worse since starting the prog. I also take testosterone avd dhea - it's possible they are converting to estrogen.
Mary, I just don't think it can be the escitalopram as I was fine on it when on the pill. When I tried to increase it a few years back, it certainly made me feel bad, so I went back down. It was a different bad feeling. It's only since coming off the pill and turning 40 that all my shenanigans began...and I'm pretty sure it's the hormones.
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Good luck Crispychick with working it all out. Please don’t dismiss that the high reading was just a spike as some of us do throw out massive spikes in Estrogen but they are not that level all of the time, once in meno the chaos should start to settle, that’s when bloods may be more useful. I can only share my own experience.
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Floo. Yip. I hear you. My estrogen levels have been normal previously. That said, I'm at my worst and I've now come to know that when my estrogen is highest - this result backs that up.
Unfortunately, here in the UK, if I was to go on symptoms alone, i'd be given estrogen. I have been given estrogen. This compounds my problem. I do think, like gilla, testing has a place when we're not classic low estrogen.
Im speaking to my clinic today. Will update later ladies x