Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Postmenopause => Topic started by: discogirl on August 30, 2022, 12:30:27 PM
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Hi all,
Im really sorry to post again, but I'm just needing a lot of help at the moment!!!
I've been on HRT since last thursday (early days I know), and I've been suffering from chronic insomnia since february.
I've discovered that for some women utrogestan can cause insomnia and as I'm wanting to avoid anything that might cause insomnia I was wondering do you have to take the utrogestan at night?
I mean can you take it earlier in the day? and if I do take it earlier in the day, would that help me avoid insomnia from the utrogestan?
thanks xx
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Hi Discogirl
For the majority of women it doesn’t cause insomnia, in fact the opposite, it helps them sleep.
Have you tried it yet?
You can take it in the morning but if you haven’t tried it yet I’d start off with at night so you can test it out for yourself.
X
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Hi Marchlove,
Yes, I've been on it since last thursday.
It's just I'm also on amitrypline 20mg for tinnitus, but I take that in the morning as it doesn't help with sleep, but it literally takes me ages now to fall asleep.
I think I just need to be patient with my HRT and wait for my estrogen and progesterone levels to even out and see if that helps.
thanks once again for your support, I really appreciate it xxx
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It could be that it will even out for you.
But that said it never did for me so I take progesterone and estrogen in the morning now, first thing.
X
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Well I'm on estrogen patches
And so it is okay to take the progesterone in the morning?
And can you explain what happened with you regarding progesterone, I mean did it affect your sleep?
xxx
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You can take it whenever you like. Many take it at night as it helps them sleep. Others do this because they use it vaginally and it stays in for longer. If it suits you to take it in the morning there's no reason from an hrt point of view why you shouldn't. It doesn't help me sleep but it does give me fatigue in the day.
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I wasn’t sleeping well before I started it and taking it did not help, in fact I think it made it worse.
Also, for me, taking estrogen at night makes my sleep worse.
So I take them both in the morning when they are naturally higher in your body anyway.
My sleep has improved, I get about 7 hours but I’m awake for about an hour during the middle of the night. Not anxious just awake and thinking over the day. So that’s still work in progress, but a lot better.
If you find that even after switching the Utrogestan to the morning that your sleep doesn’t improve, it may help if you switch to gel instead of patches and use it in the morning.
But it’s still early days for you on hrt so don’t make too many changes at once.
X
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that is so helpful. thank you so much marchlove
xx
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Marchlove, waking up in the middle of the night and having 'two sleeps' is how humanity did things for a very long time ( in case you didn't know that), so it might not be evidence of something not being right - it might be optimal and not something to try to change.
See: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/medieval-sleeping-habits-insomnia-segmented-biphasic/621372/
You can also google the idea of 'two sleeps' and medieval practices. It used to be very normal for everyone to wake in the night and do stuff and then go back to bed again....!
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Ah ha Joziel, I’ll have a look!! X
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I like the 3am awakening’s being an ‘ancestral echo’.
Bizarrely where I was once extremely anxious during these awakenings, this then moved into a complex spiritual part of my life where I thought about and saw images of what I came to think were my distant ancestors.
They never spoke just moved about in my head.
Difficult to explain, but anyway I found them calming and as time went by I have worried less about my lack of sleep and bizarrely since doing so it has slowly improved.
Since reading this, I might even stop looking for a solution all together! X
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Hi Marchlove.
Just wanted to ask, regarding your sleep and utrogestan.
when you were taking utrogestan at night, did you have trouble getting to sleep or was it waking in the middle of the night?
And now you take utrogestan in the morning, is your sleep a lot better? I mean, if you had trouble getting to sleep is that better now? It's just with me, it's trouble getting to sleep, I can lie there for hours and hours, once I'm asleep I'm fine. This and the anxiety were two of the main reasons I went on HRT. Sorry for all the questions.
And also regarding your 3am awakenings, that is so interesting; and amazing that this helped calming you down.
I would love to have a similar experience.
And Joziel, I totally agree, I believe that our sleep patterns, and sometimes the trouble we all seem to have with sleep patterns can be sometimes be related to our 'modern way of living', and our original body clock, from our ancestors, was totally different to the way we have all had to adjust over the thousands of years.
Thank you both xxx
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Hi Discogirl
Ok, so yes I had trouble getting to sleep but also waking up a few hours later. So it was more an overall sleep problem.
I now no longer take Utrogestan but am on compounded bhrt. Starting bhrt however made no difference to my insomnia when I used it at night.
So the Utrogestan and the compounded progesterone have both, using it first thing in the morning, slowly but surely improved my sleep.
I hope this helps you going forward, but do remember that my experience might not necessarily be yours.
So my advice is give each regime you use a long enough trial before you decide that is not the best thing for you at the moment.
M x
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Hi Marchlove,
Thanks so much for that and yes, that's exactly what I will do; I'm going to give it enough time as it very early days
yet and see how I get on.
Thanks for sharing about your experiences, I have found them so very helpful.
Take care x
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I found that taking utrogestan at bedtime stopped me from getting to sleep, I'd toss and turn for an hour or two before eventually getting a good night's sleep. So I now take it at 8.30 every evening, this works for me as we generally eat at about 6 and I usually go to bed just after 10. For me it means it's two hours after eating and I fall asleep more easily. Maybe play around a bit with your timings, giving it a week or two each time, to see what suits you and your own routine.
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Hi Suziemc,
That's interesting to know.
Well what I've done, I didn't take my utrogestan last night I took it this morning to see how it goes and I will give it a week or two to let things settle down.
My sleep pattern is horrific at the moment and I really don't want anything upsetting it.
I'll let you know how I get on with taking it in the morning. I know marchlove takes it in the morning and it seems to work fine.
thanks for your help xx
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Hi discogirl
Do you take Utrogestan vaginally or orally?
The effect of utrogestan on sleep is not as straightforward as helping or hindering sleep - it is more nuanced than that, as well as responses being individual.
First vaginal delivery and oral delivery may well have different effects because there are a large number/greater concentration of metabolic by-products from oral intake which may cause sdie effects ( and may affect sleep) in some women.
Secondly, while it is indisputable that progesterone has a sedative effect, taking utrogestan (which results in larger amounts of the hormone/metabolic by-products getting into the system all at once than would occur naturally during the menstrual cycle - it is released from the ovaries in steady bursts whereas in HRT is is taken once or at the most twice per day) can both help and hinder sleep. Many women, including me, sleep more deeply and heavily when on the Utro phase, but it also can have a disruptive effect on sleep due to 1) effect on bladder meaning night time waking to pee - this happens to me 2) vivid dreams causing disturbed sleep. I don't know if the dreaming is due to the bladder trying to wake you up, or an effect of the hormone and its metabolites, but this certainly happens to me.
Overall I tend to wake in the mornings anyway with a heavy head and more fatigued than usual, when taking progesterone but if you have been suffering from lack of sleep, this may be preferable?
If you are taking it orally and after a few weeks or cycles it is having negative effects - then try taking it vaginally and see if this makes a difference.
I always take mine at night because I take it vaginally and it would fall out by day - due to having had several children!!!
Hope this helps :)
Hurdity x
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When it's used for ivf it's used 3 times a day, twice during the day and once before bed so presumably it's done it's job before it comes out. Unless the capsule itself would fall out.
Has anyone tried taking it twice a day and found any difference in side effects (specifically fatigue)?
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Hi Hurdity
Thanks for that information, really, really helpful.
I take it orally and since I only started HRT properly last Thursday, I'm going to stick with orally for the moment to see how I get on.
I took it this morning instead of tonight.
Taking the utrogestan vaginally is something I would definately consider if I cannot tolerate it orally.
Interesting what you say about the metabolic by-products from taking it orally rather than vaginally.
I think I should have done more research into all of this before I went into HRT, however when I'm due for my 3 monthly review I will see how I have gotten on with this route first.
Apart from the having to pee more and the vivid dreams and fatigue in the morning, have you experienced anymore side effects from the vaginal route.
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Hi discogirl
I have never taken it orally so I have nothing to compare with - I've always been a nil-by-mouth HRT gal right from the start (2008).
I do get generally more fatigued during the prog phase, a bit head foggy aometimes more sometimes less, and which builds up over the course of the 12 days, and sometimes a migraine.
Still prefer to take it because it is bio-identical.....
Hurdity x
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thats really so helpful. im getting such good advice. This forum has really been a lifeline for me.
are the side effects less when you use prog vaginally.
i find the oral route makes me anxious and on edge
thanks so much xxx