Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Molly on August 28, 2022, 08:35:13 AM
-
Hi girls,
I have started a helath kick nd have cut out crisps chocolate and alot od carbs. I am also doing intermitting fasting where I only eat between 10am in the morning till 6pm at night. However I have noticed I am not sleeping at night and all day sweats are back, just like my days pre HRT.
Does anyone know if there is a correlation ?
Thanks x
-
Some people might say your body is detoxing.
I never eat after about 5pm and I can only sleep well on an empty stomach so I am totally used to this now, but I do know that when first adjusting, you can feel a bit 'wired' at night. This is because your body is probably going into ketosis (which is healthy and great) and burning ketones instead of sugar. Alternatively, you might be experiencing low blood sugar levels as you make the transition. You will get used to the new way of being and this feeling should wear off if you keep going.
-
This is very interesting. I have noticed that I don't do very well any more if I get hungry. So not sure if I could do much fasting! Likewise I feel I need a few carbs. Do let us know if it all settles Molly.
-
I was advised completely the opposite by NAPS: to eat every 3 hours, 24/7 to keep blood sugars even to avoid any anxiety surges. Some advise not to eat after 8.00 p.m. to allow the gut to work, we are designed to digest during sleep. Certainly I can't sleep if my body is hungry.
We are hunter gatherers, not designed to fast unless we haven't caught anything ;-). That is, unless the menfolk come home empty handed :whist: cutting out crisps and processed foods even cheeses is healthy, chocolate is full of minerals ;-).
-
Actually modern science tells us the exact opposite.
Hunter gathers fasted naturally, in between feasting - it was hard to hunt and to get enough food and there would be periods without much available. There would also be a glut of fruits and food in summers and then not much at all available during winters.
The problems with weight and obesity these days are caused by people driving their insulin up constantly all the time through frequent snacking and eating and not enough fasting.
See the Zoe Science and Nutrition podcast for an accessible introduction to modern best practices.
-
We've been round this cycle many, many times before. Eggs are bad, one a week max, oops, eggs are good. Butter is bad, eat marg, oops, butter is better, it isn't stuffed full of chemicals, eat no fat, no, we need fat etc etc. Whatever the latest fad is in 10 years time we'll be back to being told to eat a healthy, balanced diet.
If your body is reacting that way imo it is unlikely to be beneficial to your health. Perhaps you'd feel better if you ate the same amount but spread it out a bit more. If I try do hard physical work before I've had breakfast I come close to flaking out.
-
Same here sheila. I could never go without breakfast however bad anxiety hits.
It's not snacking per se but what people snack on. One looks in shopping trollies then at the person pushing it ....... when well, I allow myself 1 stick of chocolate for pudding. I've cut out shop-bought cakes etc. as they made me feel sluggish and ill. We've always eaten a lot of fruits and veg., in fact I prefer cauliflower and cabbage raw rather than boiled to nothingness. Sprouts anyone?
Slow release food stuffs can help over all. However I go off foods ......... :-\
Everyone is on a diet of some kind ::)
Between 1942 and the early 1960s, the British were the healthiest ever. Very little sugar. Eating meat/2 veg. No petrol so cycling or walking. Even when War had finished, Dads had the vehicle to get to work ......... Stodgy puddings to fill up the body especially for those working on the land, in hot furnace situations etc..
-
Diabetes UK:
Ketosis is a natural state the body finds itself in when it is using fat as its main fuel. This occurs when following a very low carb, ketogenic diet, and often during intermittent fasting too.
Ketosis can be beneficial for a number of people but there are certain groups, such as people with type 1 diabetes, that need to be more careful. In these groups, very high ketone levels would lead to diabetic ketoacidosis, a dangerous situation caused by a lack of sufficient insulin.
What is nutritional ketosis?
Ketosis is a state the body goes into if it needs to break down body fat for energy. The state is marked by raised levels of ketones in the blood which can be used by the body as fuel.
Ketones which are not used for fuel are excreted out of the body via the kidneys and the urine.
Is ketosis the same as ketoacidosis?
Nutritional ketosis occurs when there is not enough carbohydrate in the diet to meet the body’s energy requirements. In this situation, the body switches over from burning sugar to burning fat as its main fuel.
Fat, whether from the diet or the body’s stores, is broken down into ketones in the liver. These ketones are an efficient energy source for many organs, particularly the brain.
Everyone has ketones in their blood at very low levels, under normal conditions. When the body enters ketosis, and so switches to burning mostly fat, levels of ketones in the blood increase.
-
Molly - what time to you get out of bed each morning and how do you feel?
MayB keeping a diary to chart progress? Then let us know how you get on.
Not eating regularly causes anxiety. Anxiety causes me to stop eating completely ......... :-\. Aged nearly 70.
-
I was advised to cut right down on carbs and to do intermittent fasting (I don’t eat between 6pm and 10am) when I was diagnosed as pre diabetic. I have lost weight without trying, feel much healthier for it and have got my blood sugar levels out of the pre diabetic range. You soon get used to it, and basically it is just delaying your breakfast for a couple of hours. I never feel hungry anymore. I did notice though, that when I first started doing it that it was like a detox, headaches, sweats etc, but after a while it all settled down. I agree with Joziel in what she says about low blood sugar levels and ketosis. It was just my body getting used to it.
-
Exactly Haydo, you are on the right path. Unfortunately some people commenting above haven't got the memo yet.
Science is now in pretty good agreement about what is 'healthy' eating. There are still some areas of debate and some fanatics, but there is now massive agreement on the most important subjects. Characterising it as 'no one can agree, therefore don't listen to anyone' is a bit ridiculous frankly.
I mean, imagine if you applied that to HRT - what would be the point of this group? There are still massive areas of debate and more research needed but we know that hormones are important and useful and preventative of future disease now. We didn't know that 10 years ago, or perhaps when this forum started (whenever that was).
If we don't update our knowledge and move with the latest developments, no forward progress is made. We would all be left thinking HRT causes breast cancer and should never be taken.
The subject of nutrition is the same. It is NOT good for your health to eat throughout the day. Your blood sugar and insulin levels should not be high constantly, that is where insulin resistance starts and pre-diabetes. Your gut needs to rest sometimes and not be constantly processing food through constant snacking - and stopping sugar and carbs can be tough to begin with, because they are addictive.
And if you can't exercise without eating, then you're not very fat-adapted or nutritionally flexible. Being nutritionally flexible means you can switch easily between fat (ketones) and sugar for energy. That is optimal. If you haven't eaten overnight and you are working out, you are burning your fat stores (ketones). If you can't do that without feeling like you're going to collapse, it means you can't burn fat - you are a sugar-burner and nutritionally inflexible.
There is a lot more information on all this on many podcasts and blogs and websites. It's all so well known now, it's strange to find people who haven't heard about it....
-
I was advised to do the intermittent fasting by my GP, who has a special interest in diabetes; the NHS pre diabetes course that I attended and a private nutritionist. I’ve also read the 8 week blood sugar diet by Dr Michael Mosley and The Diabetes Code by Dr Jason Fung, together with loads of podcasts and websites. I realise now that I knew very little before I was diagnosed with pre diabetes. I had always eaten what I considered to be healthily; wholemeal bread, pasta and rice, very little sugar or processed foods but I was eating too many carbs and also had it in my head that if I didn’t eat breakfast I would faint, as I was told that when I was growing up. The way that I was eating was too much for my liver and pancreas and it was interfering with my insulin production. Evidently a third of adults in the UK have raised blood sugar levels and don’t know it.
As long as I drink when I get up, I have a mug of hot water with lemon juice and then a black coffee or two, once I got used to it I was fine. Sometimes I don’t feel hungry at 10 am and will skip breakfast and have an early lunch at 12 pm. All I know is that I wanted to do everything I could to avoid diabetes and it has worked so far. I initially went to the doctor as I felt exhausted all the time and the pre diabetes was discovered through the blood tests that were done. I no longer feel the exhaustion that I had been feeling for so long, and I was told by my GP that if I hadn’t done what I have done that I would be diabetic by now.
-
Thank you all girls for taking the time to reply and you all have very good points.
I am 5ft 3 and my weight crept up to10 stone about 8 years ago. So decided to do I.F. I lost 2 stone quiet easily and never felt so fantastic in my life. I had boundless energy, cognitively felt great, slept like a baby etc. Since covid my weight has crept up along with going on HRT. So to be honest the intermitting fasting for me is a great way to loose weight and heal your body from high chlorestral and the list goes on.
I guess my issue is now that I am on HRT and attempting this diet it seems to be playing havoc with my hormones. This is my 2nd attempt in a few months to try I.F and straight away my menopause symptoms return, awake all night, sweats .
So Im just wondering if anyone has any knowlege of Oestrogen balance being affected by fasting. x
-
Everything that Joziel and Haydo are saying. I'd been piling on the weight for a while. Thought I was eating ok. Hadn't realised the effect of that daily baguette for lunch at work. Literally within days of switching my work environment (so no access to baguette) I began to lose weight. A couple of weeks later and blood tests showed high blood sugar (pre-diabetes). I was shocked, because I don't have a particularly sweet tooth. I realised it was the carbs. Very recently I started to work out a few times a week at the gym and delayed breakfast. I began to feel even better. Now I've also cut out grazing/snacking ...
As someone notes above, it's a bit like a detox. I hadn't realised that carbs were basically sugar, or the extent of my 'addiction'. I've had a few sweats, about 10 days of really rubbish sleep, some periods of feeling like I need to prioritise my self-care. I figure it's a big change.
Very encouraging to read of your result, Haydo. That's where I hope to get to.
@ Molly, I can't really speak to that because I'm through the menopause and can't take HRT (it created more problems than it solved for me). Have you tried Calms (valerian) or Nytol (anti-histamine)? Maybe to get over the hump?
-
I’m afraid I can’t help with the HRT/oestrogen question either, as I am post-menopause too and not able to take HRT. Maybe Joziel has some advice when she comes back on, as I believe she takes HRT.
-
Molly that was the point I was trying to make too but maybe badly. I used to do the Intermittent Fasting and also 5:2 diet. But it doesn't seem to suit me so much now since HRT. I'll give it another go tho!
-
I’m the same Gnatty, I need 3 meals a day otherwise my performance goes downhill. I never used to need breakfast.
Huge low carb supporter here.
Molly it’s common to get sleep disturbance when you first drop carbs, it didn’t happen to me but my doc warned me about it.
I’ve worn a CGM for 6 months, I 100% know that low carb eating reduces blood sugar and shifts water retention.
-
thank you lovely girlies for the replies.
I will park it for the moment and see if I can get my sleep back and maybe try it slowly in a couple of weeks starting with maybe a 12 hour fast instead of 16...oh the joys of aging hahaha x
-
Just to add my 10 cents worth I tried to research hormone interplay when I started on IF (October 2019) but didn’t find much, although there’s known to be the potential for hormone disruption.
I did however find the most caution for YOUNG women, with the suggestion to stick to 16/8 and not the more extreme versions of IF. There was less concern and more benefits it seemed for post menopausal women.
I started doing it because I came across not one but two neuroscientists who likened Alzheimers (which my mother has and it has a genetic link) to type 2 diabetes and were both doing IF to reverse insulin resistance etc.
As CLKD says, this is not to say that type 1 diabetics should do it or at the least would need to exercise extreme care, as there are safety concerns.
We only have long term studies in rats, so who knows if one day the advice changes. I’m prepared for that- it just seems like best evidence at the moment. Some people do keto and IF to maximize the benefits, but that’s a bit beyond me. 😵💫
I have had hot flushes for more than 10 years. HRT reduced but did not eliminate them. I went off systemic HRT due to a possible link with atypical hyperplasia of the breast, discovered in 2021. My hot flushes immediately came back with a vengeance.
I am still doing IF, but as I didn’t do it before the hot flushes, I can’t say whether it’s worse due to the IF.
-
I have read this thread with interest, as someone who at times struggles with blood sugar but has learnt to get to know my body and what it needs.
The first thing I would say is that the benefits of healthy eating – as Sheila says “being told to eat a healthy, balanced diet” cannot be overstated. Irrespective of any eating patterns, this is a current recommendation that applies to the entre population, full stop. And this means cutting out added sugars, added fats and refined carbs. If we all did this (very difficult!) we would all feel a whole lot better and be much healthier and slimmer!
Second – any form of intermittent fasting cannot be a blanket regime of eating patterns universally applicable. More than anything else our bodies are so different in terms of blood sugar regulation – even if we were all to give up extra sugars, refined carbs etc.
Women differ from men - and in fact the Zoe nutrition study says as much:
“Intermittent fasting affects men and women differently”.
“There are possible risks for women to consider around reproductive health, bone health, and overall well-being”
“Women may need to take a more gradual approach in order to reduce possible negative side effects on reproductive health, bone health, and overall well-being.”
https://joinzoe.com/learn/intermittent-fasting-for-women
Crucially the hormone progesterone has different effects on blood sugar than oestrogen (from memory increases blood sugar levels in the body - as part of pregnancy) and changes in progesterone also affect blood sugar levels – hence that sugar craving and associated symptoms many women experience during the second half of their menstrual cycle. Similar and more dramatic hormonal changes occur during peri-menopause – also affecting blood sugar levels.
Therefore it is wise to be cautious when approaching intermittent fasting – and in fact the term was initially coined, as far as I recall for the “alternate day fasting” regime, later with the addition of the 5:2 diet, and finally to the fasting window – which is really not intermittent fasting, in my book, but as defined here in the Zoe website:
“Time-restricted plans separate eating and fasting into two windows, or cycles, within 1 day. The idea is to extend the fasting window that already happens when you’re sleeping. “ ie extending the natural fasting window that we all already experience.
As someone who has suffered from what is now termed “reactive hypoglycaemia) throughout my life– ie the same symptoms of extreme low blood sugar experienced by diabetics, I have learnt what my body needs especially if I am taking exercise – and for me that means a very good breakfast – but which can be delayed (eg until 10 am) but must be taken before any exercise etc etc. We will all have our own “hungry” times.
So if I was attending an exercise class at 9 am – there is no way I could keep to an 8 hour fasting window – I would need to eat my big breakfast by 8 am – and we will all have our own routines.
So our eating patterns (and of course total calorie intake) must reflect our gender, our reproductive life stage, our diet, and our exercise regime.
Also – noting the Zoe comment above “Women may need to take a more gradual approach …” and a comment on the thread that reducing sugar and carbs at the same time as introducing the longer fasting window caused unpleasant effects – to me it would be preferable FIRST to attend to your diet BEFORE changing your eating patterns and extending your fasting window: ie reduce sugars, reduce refined carbs reduce extra fats and overall aim to reduce total carbs. Maintain the same eating patterns – and then once your body has acclimatised to this ( and your insulin levels and response will take time to adjust), start to extend the fasting window – and then your body hopefully will not react so badly. Also be prepared to adjust it according to your exercise pattern. There is no point getting to the stage where you are feeling rough due to your current hormonal state!
As for snacking –
Joziel: “It is NOT good for your health to eat throughout the day. Your blood sugar and insulin levels should not be high constantly, that is where insulin resistance starts and pre-diabetes. Your gut needs to rest sometimes and not be constantly processing food through constant snacking - and stopping sugar and carbs can be tough to begin with, because they are addictive.”
CLKD “It's not snacking per se but what people snack on.”.
Exactly. I agree we need to cut out added sugar and refined carbs and maybe reduce carbs (depending on our diets) but eating carrots and cottage cheese etc is not going to play havoc with your insulin levels etc. Some women’s metabolism (and hormonal state) may require more frequent eating even when insulin levels and response have stabilised overall.
However in principle I think it’s a great idea!
Finally:
Joziel: “There is a lot more information on all this on many podcasts and blogs and websites. It's all so well known now, it's strange to find people who haven't heard about it....”
Thanks for telling us that there is so much information around – some links to blogs and websites would be helpful. There is no shame in not knowing about these, and we all have different interests, so it is not at all strange. We are here to learn and share and we all have varying amounts of knowledge…
Molly I wish you all the best in achieving the desired result - and do let us know how you get on :)
Bit of a ramble....hope it helps!
Hurdity x
-
Thank you girls again for your replies xxxx
I was at the doctor today to get bloods done and mentioned it to him, he said its the blood sugar levels being affected.
So ive decided to keep up my normal diet of healthy foods without rubbish, crisps choclate and icecream ;D and let my body get use to that, I can always try a refined version of the 16/8 IF diet in time. My sleep means too much to me with 3 little men to tend you!
Thanks again girls x
I do believ the middle age spread is a real thing ::)
-
GP on a Sunday, whoops Bank Holiday Monday even ;D
Years ago my apron dropped [middle aged spread] - so although I haven't put weight on, I look fat from above. On the bed, flat, my belly is absolutely OK ::)
-
And if you can't exercise without eating, then you're not very fat-adapted or nutritionally flexible. Being nutritionally flexible means you can switch easily between fat (ketones) and sugar for energy. That is optimal. If you haven't eaten overnight and you are working out, you are burning your fat stores (ketones). If you can't do that without feeling like you're going to collapse, it means you can't burn fat - you are a sugar-burner and nutritionally inflexible.
Hopefully you will have learned something from Hurdity's thoughtful post. As your comment above seems to be directed at me perhaps I can add to your learning. As stated I can't do hard physical work in the morning without breakfast. But I can have lunch at 1pm, a biscuit at 4pm and still be haymaking at 2am the following day with no further nutrition (small bales, all done by hand and it's hard work). BIL has his dinner at 6pm but can't work beyond 10.30pm. So for us it seems to have more to do with body clock than the inability to burn fat.
And just as an aside I was offended by your diagnosis of my 'condition' given you know nothing about my health, eating habits or lifestyle and I don't appreciate the inference that anyone who doesn't agree with you is either stupid or uneducated.
-
Good points Hurdity and Sheila.
I would add that the 'no carbs' dictate is not that straightforward.
My mother, sister and I eat pasta (white) nearly every night of the week and a little bread every day and have low-normal blood sugar levels and a low weight (if anything too low).
But we also eat generous amounts of vegetables, including fermented ones, fish, nuts, seeds, virgin olive oil and are physically active, ie. we have a fairly typical southern Italian diet (apart from the Korean fermented imports) which needs to be looked in its entirety rather than isolating single elements.
-
Without chocolate buttons I wouldn't be alive 8). From age 3 when I had my first panic attack chocolate sustained me. As a recovering anorexic no way must I ignore my bodies needs, even though often I don't recognise hunger. Hence the eating every 3 hours what ever I fancy, to stop that awful empty surge = nausea.
I love's roasted veggies hot or cold I does, when I'm well. When ill I stick to safe foods which may not be 'heathly' but have kept me alive thus far. Usually chicken curry with either rice or naan breads. Or Marmite on toast or Oxo cube crushed into hot water.
DH is the Chef here, I may have mentioned it :-* :whist:
No diet is worth feeling ill with ......... :-\
-
And if you can't exercise without eating, then you're not very fat-adapted or nutritionally flexible. Being nutritionally flexible means you can switch easily between fat (ketones) and sugar for energy. That is optimal. If you haven't eaten overnight and you are working out, you are burning your fat stores (ketones). If you can't do that without feeling like you're going to collapse, it means you can't burn fat - you are a sugar-burner and nutritionally inflexible.
Hopefully you will have learned something from Hurdity's thoughtful post. As your comment above seems to be directed at me perhaps I can add to your learning. As stated I can't do hard physical work in the morning without breakfast. But I can have lunch at 1pm, a biscuit at 4pm and still be haymaking at 2am the following day with no further nutrition (small bales, all done by hand and it's hard work). BIL has his dinner at 6pm but can't work beyond 10.30pm. So for us it seems to have more to do with body clock than the inability to burn fat.
And just as an aside I was offended by your diagnosis of my 'condition' given you know nothing about my health, eating habits or lifestyle and I don't appreciate the inference that anyone who doesn't agree with you is either stupid or uneducated.
Just as an aside, Joziel suggested the Zoe study on page 1, so good to see that you agree. You might like to consider why, in that context, you misconstrued her response.
-
I don't think that has anything to do with it ElkWarning. It was the post further on in the thread which has upset Sheila99 and to be honest I can totally see why. It was patronising to say the least!
-
Zero misconstruing on Sheila's part, those were really patronising comments as others here have rightly noted
-
Just as an aside, Joziel suggested the Zoe study on page 1, so good to see that you agree. You might like to consider why, in that context, you misconstrued her response.
Well thanks for clearing that up. I've already been told I can't burn fat and I'm stupid so it's good to know you're able to tell me what I think!
Sorry, I know you're trying to stir things but this just made me laugh ;D.
-
It also depends on what time of Life we are as to how the body deals with foods stuffs.
-
Just as an aside, Joziel suggested the Zoe study on page 1, so good to see that you agree. You might like to consider why, in that context, you misconstrued her response.
Well thanks for clearing that up. I've already been told I can't burn fat and I'm stupid so it's good to know you're able to tell me what I think!
Sorry, I know you're trying to stir things but this just made me laugh ;D.
Not 'trying to stir things', but am becoming increasingly concerned about the open hostility (your comment is a perfect example) which is making some women (e.g. Joziel) leave this board.
Just can't understand how someone can be so vehemently opposed to the findings of a study when one person refers to it and then in complete agreement with it when another person refers to it. Grinding axes is not the purpose of this board.
I'm sad women are leaving because they don't consider this a safe and supportive space.
-
I do agree Elkwarning
It seems to me sometimes that there is something odd going on but can’t quite put my finger on what it is.
Women will certainly leave this wonderful forum if they don’t feel safe and supported , which as we’ve all seen, been happening with increased frequency in recent months.
It’s worth us all reflecting on this.
Mx
-
It seems to me sometimes that there is something odd going on but can’t quite put my finger on what it is.
To me Marchlove it is a core element on the forum who want to maintain their position. It then seems at some point to cause other often/usually new and interesting people to leave. Maybe they are seen as a threat in some way ?
Great pity in my small opinion that Elkwarning has now gone but what can you do about it.
-
So sorry to hear that someone else has left the forum. x
-
There is clearly a fine line these days between advice being offered and that being seen as a criticism.
It's a reflection of what we see in the wider world as well.
As a therapist I always taught my clients that realising we can make changes is about regaining control rather than taking blame for our getting ourselves into the situation in the first place. Sometimes it's also easier to believe that we do not have control so that we don't have to step outside of our comfort zone. Blaming others just pushes our control further away and builds resentment that eats away at us from the inside out.
The majority of this forum is very supportive and mature. It sometimes lacks in flexible thinking when it goes against the grain. Suggesting new options is not to attack the old ones, it's just to give new options, particularly for those who the old options do not work.
It is human nature to defend our own course, particularly if it's a long term course that we have invested heavily in and taken potential risks to choose that path. However, we need to constantly challenge our choices in order to remain flexible to new information and new opportunities. It's ok to walk away, say, half way through a PHD if it is no longer working for you. It's not admitting defeat it's showing emotional intelligence and resilience that you are open to better options that suit you better.
-
Thank you Dangermouse
Personally, I defend my right to be offended as this allows me to think critically and perhaps form a different opinion on a subject that perhaps I am not so well versed as others.
As Dangermouse so rightly points out this allows for flexible thinking, versatility and resilience. All attributes which help us to move forward.
M x
-
Hi Molly
Perhaps your window of eating is too short? Or you're not eating enough in that time?
I know I lost weight just from finishing eating by 7.30pm when I had acid reflux last year. I wasn't even trying to lose weight at the time.
The insomnia could be a sign your cortisol levels are spiking and I understand that can happen when fasting.
I really think there is no one-size-fits-all diet. There are certainly trends towards low carb/keto/IF diets which have their merits.
Tell us how you get on.
-
Hi Molly
Perhaps your window of eating is too short? Or you're not eating enough in that time?
I know I lost weight just from finishing eating by 7.30pm when I had acid reflux last year. I wasn't even trying to lose weight at the time.
The insomnia could be a sign your cortisol levels are spiking and I understand that can happen when fasting.
I really think there is no one-size-fits-all diet. There are certainly trends towards low carb/keto/IF diets which have their merits.
Tell us how you get on.
Thats interesting jasmine.
I have been listening to lots of podcasts, Dr Mindy pelz especially and she says never fast the week before your period as progesterone and fasting dont go well together. Shes great to listen to. So I think I might start after my period but gradually go into it it. I must buy her book, how to fast like a woman.
Il let you know how I go. 14lb to shift. x