Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Kenny on August 15, 2022, 08:44:51 PM
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Hi , I’m 4 weeks in Oestrogel 75ml and progestron 100g, thought I was doing okay, this last week my sweats are dreadful, is it just the heat ,,tempted to up Oestrogel but so scared to start messing, help .Was previously on Kliovance GP asked me to change and tbh I felt this wasn’t working ie sweats but no where near as bad has currently.Welcome any advice. Carolyn
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Hello Kenny, funnily enough I’ve just posted a similar issue. I don’t get hot flushes or night sweats, but I get heavy sweating that’s pretty much constant all day, and all over my body.
I was on Kliofem which was helping, until a few months ago the sweating gradually returned, and last week my GP started me on 4 pumps Estrogel & 100mcg utrogestan. I’m desperate for it to work as the sweating is ruining my life, but I’m afraid 4 pumps will not be enough. I don’t really have any advice other than various menopause experts e.g Dr Louise Newson says it’s fine to take more pumps if you need it. How many pumps per day do you use?
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Hi, currently only 1 pump in the morning and progesteron at night, I’m so desperate I was spreading it between both arms, today I’ve put it on one arm, I’m trying to arrange an apt with GP, it is really affecting me now, I’m not putting makeup on as it will only come off when I sweat 😡. Sorry to hear it sounds that you are going through the same as me, I blamed the heat but today it’s much cooler and I’m just as bad. I was on Kliovance up until a month ago , I felt that wasn’t working sweat wise so thought I’d try this new regime, now I’ve no idea where I’m up to.x
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Hi Kenny, you probably know progesterone increases body temperature, but the right amount of oestrogen should help to counter that effect. Many of us find we get quite strong side effects of one sort or another from Utrogestan & if you are only on one pump of Oestrogel that's quite a low dose, so I would talk to your GP about increasing the gel. Some women take Utro vaginally to minimise side effects, so that may be something you could consider if you're not already using it that way. You'll know from the PIL that when taken orally it should be taken on an empty stomach - food increases Utro's bioavailability, so taking it close to a meal could produce more powerful side effects.
If given enough time, you still find you're struggling with it, Dydrogesterone (in the Femoston range) is the one progestogen said not to have this side effect.
I hope you both manage to get it sorted before long as this intense heat can be very unpleasant in the circumstances.
Wx
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I have also just posted something similar with regarding to sweating rather than flushing.
I think the current heatwave has caused it. I feel like my internal thermostat has got stuck on hot. I have never been warm-bodied before my hands and feet are usually freezing/cold in winter months and then in summer they become less cold ;D
My husband jokes that he shoos the penguins away before getting into bed :D
My hands are red hot at the moment, my body is hot to touch and so any movement causes overheating leading to sweating.
I am now looking forward to cooler weather ... no more heatwaves please.
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Kenny and Gill67, I hope you don't mind if I reply to you both on here, your threads very similar!
I have never had hot flushes or night sweats either but I was plagued with day time sweating. Looking back, it started mid to late 30s and suddenly became much worst immediately post menopause.
I tried various forms of HRT but the only thing that worked was Oestrogel. I used three pumps every day back then but now I'm very post menopause (15 years) I can get the same results with just one pump of Oestrogel and 50mg progesterone every day. So you may need a high dose of oestrogen in the early stages of the menopause but you may be able to reduce when you get to my age - 61 and one of the oldest people on here!
Anyone who has had this debilitating symptom will tell you that excessive menopausal sweating is a world away from normal sweating in hot weather. It's a vasomotor symptom that can only be resolved by using a highish dose of oestrogen.
I hope that helps.
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Hi Ladies, very interesting replies, Mary G your not the oldest , I’m 64 and went through the menopause at 47 ,, a long time, I accept I will not get over a few of the symptoms but it’s just frustrating that after all this time I’m suffering so bad with hot face sweats. Tbh I’d been on Kliovance for a few years and GP asked me to change ,, for no particular reason, that was in Feb this year, I didn’t change as I didn’t see any reason , however when my sweats started over a month ago I thought I had nothing to lose, sweats seemed quite good at first and I was hopeful, now I have them with a vengeance I’ve no idea what’s going on. I’ve got a GP calling me,, do I just do 2 pumps tomorrow, also when taking vaginally is just a case of like using a tampon. Thanks Ladies your stars.
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Kenny, one pump of oestrogel is an incredibly low dose - equivalent to a 25mcg patch. It's likely you need much more estrogen than that.
Have you been given any guidance about increasing your estrogen? The usual starting dose is 2 pumps (which is the equivalent of a 50mcg patch).
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Thanks Joziel,I was advised to use 1 pump and Utrogestan 100mg, I seemed okay ish for the 1st couple of weeks, but now the face sweats have come with a vengeance. Last night I took it vaginally, should I up the pump to 2 or see if taking vaginally helps first. I should be getting a call from GP today, gosh can’t believe 18 years since last period and now I’m hit with this..x
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Kenny, I'd tell your GP when you speak today how bad the sweating is. It's possible your dose of Oestrogel is not right for you. You may need more & hopefully they will agree to trying an increase if you feel this is what you'd like to do.
Don't want to introduce doubt when I know you just need to feel better, but bear in mind it's also possible that the gel method doesn't suit you. I find I'm better with the slow release from patches than once a day application methods like gel & spray, but lots of women on here do very well with the gel & those on more than one pump sometimes find they feel better if they split application between morning & evening. It's trial & error I'm afraid.
Yes, those women who use Utrogestan vaginally insert the capsules like a tampon, pushing it as far up as you can. There is a bit about it on the attached link from Newson Health, with the relevant extract here:-
https://www.newsonhealth.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Progesterone-Intolerance-March-22-update.pdf
"Local progesterone – released into your vagina or womb
Another way to take progesterone is to insert the capsule vaginally, at nighttime. This then works locally
near your womb, where it is needed, and is not digested or absorbed into your whole body, so there is
less chance of side effects"
Good luck with the appt today & I hope you feel better soon.
Wx
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Hi, I’d never thought that the gel may not agreeing with me, I’ll mention that also to GP. I’ll update after GP rang.x
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Kenny, it's very common to see initial improvement and then symptoms coming back again. It just means your body needs more estrogen. Sweats are a classic low estrogen sign, nothing to do with progesterone, so I'm pretty sure taking utrogestan vaginally isn't going to fix your sweats...
I wouldn't suggest chopping and changing different types of estrogen, you just throw a lot more variables into the picture then. Stick with one kind and try to get the levels right. Only if you have ongoing issues and can't find a level that works, consider switching.
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I agree Joziel, I realise that change to amounts would not work overnight , tbh today I’ve been quite good, it helps a lot to be able to chat to lovely ladies who have lots of experience. I’m a positive person and hopefully my only symptoms are the dreadful facial sweats if we can sort those 🙏😄
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Hi Kenny, good to know you felt somewhat better yesterday :). How are you today & how did you get on with the GP call?
Joziel, while I absolutely agree that sweats can be a classic vasomotor response to oestrogen deficiency, which is why I've said in my posts to Kenny that she may need to increase her Oestrogel, I'm less sure than you that progesterone can't also be at least partly to blame. It is known to be thermogenic & my own experience of 4 trials of Utrogestan over the years is that among other horrible effects, it makes me hellishly hot, however much oestrogen I take it with. Frustrating, as given its gold standard status I really wanted it to be the one. We may not be typical, but a handful of other members have posted the same over the years.
I also mentioned this possibility to Kenny in my first post because I was mindful that understandably she had told us she was afraid to increase her oestrogen & trying Utrogestan vaginally was a simple change she could consider that might not feel so stressful. I know some other members find that method reduces unwanted effects, though personally I can't take it that way but didn't want to mention that earlier as it could have been discouraging.
Like Kenny, I'm also in my 60s & it is unfortunately said to become more difficult for us to regulate our temperature as we age, so in the recent extreme heat it seems likely that our bodies would struggle more to cope with medications that increase body temperature. But as we've all posted, the right amount of oestrogen should help to counter that effect.
As mentioned, I've also found that my flushes & sweats are worse with the once a day application forms of oestradiol than on patches, but this was more something to bear in mind for future consideration if Kenny finds she doesn't improve for whatever she & her GP decide should be the first step.
I hope that makes sense! :)
Wx
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Morning. Yesterday was the 1st in many a long week that I haven't dripped everywhere. Local Temps went from 29C to 17C in a drop.
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Hi Kenny, you probably know progesterone increases body temperature, but the right amount of oestrogen should help to counter that effect. Many of us find we get quite strong side effects of one sort or another from Utrogestan
Hi everyone, thank you all so much for your helpful replies to both Kenny and me. Wrensong, I didn't know that progesterone increases body temperature- that might help explain why yesterday morning I felt that the sweating was actually a bit worse! I also felt a bit sort of 'hung over'... tired, bit groggy, headache. Not very pleasant, I hope that if the Utrogestan is causing that, it dies away soon. I never had any problems with the progestin that was in my Kliofem tablets, but that's an artificial version so maybe that's why.
Kenny and Gill67, I hope you don't mind if I reply to you both on here, your threads very similar!
I have never had hot flushes or night sweats either but I was plagued with day time sweating. Looking back, it started mid to late 30s and suddenly became much worst immediately post menopause.
I tried various forms of HRT but the only thing that worked was Oestrogel...
Anyone who has had this debilitating symptom will tell you that excessive menopausal sweating is a world away from normal sweating in hot weather. It's a vasomotor symptom that can only be resolved by using a highish dose of oestrogen.
I hope that helps.
Mary, thanks so much for this, your sweating issue is exactly the same as mine. It's so life-limiting. I avoid as many social occasions as I can, because people notice my sweaty face, wet hair etc. My glasses steam up, my clothes get damp and anything dark shows up huge damp patches across my chest and back. I look like ive just been running a 5k or something. If I have to go out I have to factor in about an extra half hour of 'getting ready' time, because even having a shower causes more sweating and I have to lie quietly on the bed with a fan on me to stop it so I can just get dressed!
It's so physically uncomfortable too, to be damp and sticky all the time, so now I just avoid doing as much as I can because I just want to be comfortable. But I can't just sit on the sofa for the rest of my life.
I'm 54 and I'm probably classed as post-menopausal, because I went onto sequential HRT (Trisequens) about 3 years ago because of the sweating, then after a year GP moved me to Kliofem continuous HRT, so I stopped having a bleed every month. KLiofem contains 2mg oestrogen and 1mg progestogen and I was fine on that until a few mnths ago when the sweating started to return. As you say, it's not related to the warm weather, I sweat heavily and constantly whatever the weather is like. Movement seems to cause it. I don't even feel hot most of the time, it's not like a hot flush. I just break out in sweat all over my face and torso and it'll continue until i sit down for a while.
I'm really hoping 4 pumps of oestrogel will be enough, as according to manufacturers leaflet, 4 pumps is equal to 5gm Estrogen, which is one more gram than I was getting on Kliofem. That one extra gram might be enough to stop the sweating. It's very encouraging that you say that a high dose of oestrogen can resolve it. I know the Kliofem stopped it, so I'm assuming that my own oestrogen levels have fallen to the point that I need more than 2mg estrogen to stop the sweating. At least the gel is easily altered to find the right dose.
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Morning, just want to say how reassuring it is to hear from you lovely ladies and your experiences. 😘Today I have used 11/2 pumps same as yesterday, also didn’t take the progestron as I’m going to try every other night , so I’ll take tonight . 2 slight tweaks, I’ll keep you updated,, still no GP call but I’ve made the decision to tweak my own and will tell GP that. Have a good day ladies..x
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Hi Kenny, thanks for the update. Everything crossed for you.
Hi Gill67, sorry you are also suffering with this horrible consequence of menopause. Yes, the only form of progesterone said not to raise body temp is Dydrogesterone (in the Femoston range).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dydrogesterone
"unlike all other clinically used progestogens, dydrogesterone does not have a hyperthermic effect in humans (i.e., it does not increase body temperature)."
Hopefully, as you say, you will find you feel better on Utrogestan as time goes by.
Wx
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Hi Wrensong, thanks for the info and the link on Dydrogesterone, that's interesting and helpful. I'm only 6 days into this new regime of gel and utrogestan so I've got to give it a while yet to see how it goes before I can fiddle about with it too much. Though last night I decided to try the Utrogestan vaginally, as I am pretty sure that the weird groggy hungover feeling yesterday morning was related to it. Anyway, got up this morning and did not feel as hung over, or quite as sweaty as the day before, so I think I'll continue with it vaginally for now.
I'd also just like to echo Kenny's commentts about how helpful it is to read other peoples' experience with excessive sweating. It has been getting me down recently, which isn't really like me, but I'm just so sick of it all day every day. Not knowing anyone else who suffers with it can make you feel a bit isolated sometimes, even though I know other woman are suffering in different ways. It has made me feel more positive to know I'm not completely alone in this, so thank you to everyone who has contributed :-)
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Hi Gill67, it makes absolute sense to continue with your new regimen when you have only just started, to give your body time to adjust & I'm sure you know the general advice is to stick with it for 3 months unless we have reason to believe any particular HRT combo is really not suitable. I just posted the Dydrogesterone link for anyone reading who's interested now or who may pull up this thread in the future.
Many members report the hungover grogginess from Utrogestan so you're right to suspect it's related, but it's great that vaginal application may be helping reduce those effects for you.
I absolutely agree the forum is a great place for support, sharing of experience & info, for all that menopause throws at us and it's invaluable in helping to reduce the sense of isolation & worry. It was a stroke of genius to set it up I think!
It's also lovely for us all when members say thank you - makes posting feel worthwhile. So thank you to you & Kenny for expressing your appreciation to everyone who's posted.
Wx
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Gill67, you are right, it's a horrible, lonely experience and I was baffled at first because the mega sweating is nothing like typical hot flushes or night sweats.
I had a very sudden menopause in 2006 aged 45. The excessive sweating started in the 90s but in 2006 my periods stopped very suddenly never to return and the sweating went into overdrive. I remember I was in a phone shop in the UK and I suddenly broke into the most horrendous sweat. The sheer speed of it was quite incredible. Even sitting mess light bulbs made me sweat!
By 2007 I thought I should see a doctor so I had a load of blood tests and found out I was post menopause. I had a Mirena coil at the time and wondered if that might have stopped my periods but the doctor rightly pointed out that it didn't stop them in 1998 so it would not be stopping them now. Also my oestrogen level was 30 pg/mL which is my oestrogen base level now (15 years later) without HRT - I decided to do a baseline test. Basically I need levels to be around 80-100 pg/mL (about 300 pmol) to feel good and keep the sweats away and I can achieve this level on one pump of Oestrogel.
So it all depends of how well you absorb the different products but I found Oestrogel to be the best form of oestrogen by far and three pumps got rid of my sweats very quickly so four pumps should work relatively quickly and may even be too much but no harm in trying.
Please do keep us posted on your progress!
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Oh well, eventually got a text today to say I will have a telephone call with my GP but not for another week.!! Thankfully I’ve had another quite good day, I’m carrying on with Progestron vaginally every other night and 11/2 pumps of gel, I’ve still had the odd sweaty face but not went into full blown sweat 👏.thank the lord I didn’t need GP,,😀,, between ourselves lovely ladies I’m feeling more positive.
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Hi Kenny, good to hear that you're feeling more positive and that the sweating 'might' be easing a little.
Just a quick update from me, I'm on day 10 now of 4 pumps of estrogel and 100mcg tablet Utrogestan. No improvement in the sweating as yet, but still early days I suppose. I really didn't like the groggy, headachey feeling I've been getting that started a few days into the new treatment- I wasn't looking forward to putting up with that for weeks just hoping it would die away. So like you, I switched to taken the Progesterone vaginally. Didn't notice much change but only remembered yesterday that I could take it every other night! So I didn't take it last night and woke up without a headache or grogginess for the first time in about a week. Yay! I hope that continues.
Re the sweating, I feel at the moment that it's actually a little worse, which isn't good. Again, I'm hoping that is just a temporary side effect of being on new types of hormones and different method of delivery. I was on the older-type combined synthetic pill before I changed.
I notice that the instruction leaflet in with the Oestrogel says that if no improvement in symptoms is seen after one month, the dose can be increased. So I will give myself an extra pump per day then & see what happens.
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Hi Gill67, I’m eventually having a telephone call with my GP in the morning, I’ll update you all. My sweats have not disappeared but have settled down quite a bit 👏, I’m going to continue with the progestron vaginally every other night, apparently in one if the posts they say it’s not needed every night as it’s going straight where it’s needed.Catch up tomorrow.x
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Update ladies, seen lovely lady GP today, apparently I should have been told I could increase to 2 pumps ,,I will try that in the morning, today I’ve had a few facial sweats but think I was a bit stressed, I mentioned the tingly feeling and lump on the side of my breast which is quite recent, she sent me for a chest X-ray as she couldn’t find any lump but there was a tender spot., she feels it was more my breast/ chest bone ,, hence chest X-ray, she has asked me to keep a close eye on it and see her in 4 weeks with update on HRT , if there is still discomfort in my breast in 4 weeks and I have increased the gel she will refer me for investigation. I’m not unduly concerned as I’m convinced it is my hormones.. Let’s see how 2 pumps works 🙏
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Hi folks, I know this is a very old post now but I’m wondering how things turned out for you in terms of the excessive sweating? I’m really struggling with this and honestly, it’s ruining my life. This past summer has been unbearable. I’m already on progesterone (internal) and four pumps of estrogen (I’m 40). Any thoughts? I’m at a loss and need any help of advice. I’d love to hear your experiences if possible. Thank you 🙏
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I'm on a high does of estrogen patch 100mcg and recently started vaginal progesterone. My estrogen levels are at the low end of normal and my body boils. I wonder if the micronised progesterone is the cause. It seems to have ramped up since taking it. Just walking downstairs I'm sweaty Betty. I will ask the GP I fi can add a 25mcg patch. It doesn't sound like the GP will allow due to guidelines.
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Utrogestan does increase core body temperature but if you are taking enough oestrogen, that should help to counter it.
What are your oestrogen levels? It could be that they are too low because I needed a high dose of oestrogen to finally get rid of the sweating. It's a horrible, embarrassing menopause symptom.
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My level is 206pml which is apparently adequate.
Bloody menopause who would of thought we had all this coming towards us. It should make us stronger haha
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I'm afraid that level of oestrogen is way too low and that explains why your sweating has not subsided.
Even allowing for oestrogen fluctuations, that is way out and you really need to hit the 400s to cut through. Sweating is more difficult to shift than hot flushes and you are obviously not absorbing the patch - patches were hopeless for me and I didn't get anything like the levels I needed with them.
Can you switch to Oestrogel or perhaps add Oestrogel to the patch? Mix and match often produces good results.
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That's what I thought and the GP initially told me the range and the message said the levels where adequate but I know there is plenty of room to increase at least. The gel I struggled to absorb that's why I moved to patches so I guess the other option is oral and I know that comes with some risks. But all meds have risks. Thank your for your help.
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I'm sorry you're suffering with this too @bluebird68! It is truly awful and humiliating for me.
Mary G, thanks for responding - can I ask what your high dose of estrogel is now? Im assuming you've managed to get the sweating symptom under control to a degree you are okay with now?
I really need to have my hormone levels checked. It might be better for me if the progesterone pod could be half the dose or taking every other night. Perhaps I should try that whilst I wait for my appointments.
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beingfemaleishard, I was using 3 pumps of Oestrogel when the sweating was at its absolute worst but now I've dropped back to 2 pumps which I can get away with because I'm older ie 64.
I still sweat buckets in humidity but that is normal sweating that I had in humidity pre menopause. When I commuted on a train to London every day, my back used to sweat in the summer and I used to swing my bag round to cover it up as I was getting off the train. So I've always had a tendency to sweat in humid environments but as you will know, menopause sweating is completely different because it's instantaneous, profuse and unpredictable. It's incredible just how quickly it erupts. It's dreadful when you know you are going to break into a horrendous sweat and it's so embarrassing, particularly if your face sweats.
My sweating has probably been worse during the menopause because I live in a hot climate but I've had episodes in the UK in airports and in shops during the summer. Sweating in air-conditioning is a bad sign because you cool down in an air-conditioned environment with normal sweating but you don't with menopause sweating.
What is your progesterone type/dose? Progesterone raises core body temperature whereas oestrogen cools it down..
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Thank you for sharing that Mary G
I'm on the 100mg Utrogestan, using it internally.. I've always been a bit sweaty but now, as you've detailed in past posts just the smallest amount of activity brings on full body sweating which takes a while to calm down. Then you add in the temperature and the humidity and it's horrific. A lazy ten minute walk will soak my hair, back, knickers.. it'll run down my neck. Even on cold days it takes slightly longer to happen but it still happens. It's a nightmare. I'm a mum to a toddler now and it's only gotten worse!
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It's horrible isn't it. I hope you can get some relief with a higher
oestrogen dose.
The strange thing is, I never actually felt unbearably hot, I just sensed a rise in temperature and my body would decide to sweat disproportionately. Basically the thermoregulatory process stops working properly when oestrogen is too low and in some women it causes hot flushes and night sweats which I have never had.